Discussion:
Brett Cameron interview
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Jan-Erik Soderholm
2017-02-14 08:45:56 UTC
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http://blog.ecubesystems.com/brett-cameron-interview/
Dirk Munk
2017-02-14 11:16:06 UTC
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Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
http://blog.ecubesystems.com/brett-cameron-interview/
Interesting interview, thanks.

OpenVMS on the notebook was also mentioned........
j***@yahoo.co.uk
2017-02-14 12:54:56 UTC
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Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
http://blog.ecubesystems.com/brett-cameron-interview/
Thank you for posting the link, and thank you to interviewer
and interviewee. A good read.

Where else might the interview usefully be visible, and who
can help make it visible there?
Jan-Erik Soderholm
2017-02-14 13:48:31 UTC
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Post by j***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
http://blog.ecubesystems.com/brett-cameron-interview/
Thank you for posting the link, and thank you to interviewer
and interviewee. A good read.
Where else might the interview usefully be visible, and who
can help make it visible there?
I got it as a news-flash from LinkedIn from Bretts profile.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/cameronbrett

It was a link to this PRWeb article that in turn links to eCube.

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2017/02/prweb14043846.htm

Yes, nice read. But I hoped to see something about the group built
around this subject ("future development around VMS") that (as it
was told at an VMS event in november) was to be lead by Brett.
Moai
2017-02-15 14:09:58 UTC
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Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
http://blog.ecubesystems.com/brett-cameron-interview/
That was fun and informative to read.

I know my perspective, as someone twenty years old who only works with
Unix, is somewhat different than most, I still thought of something that
could answer one of the questions:
"What can be done to attract young developers to the virtues of OpenVMS
development?"

Simply making it easier for people to access OpenVMS machines would be
the first step. The x86 port is a great step in this direction: if a
person could install it on his own PC, he'd be able to work with it and
play around with it. Ever since the deathrow cluster went down quite a
while ago, I haven't been able to use OpenVMS: if someone can't use
OpenVMS, how could he expect himself to become or remained skilled with it?

Another thing would be to ensure all the documentation is close to each
other: I think FreeBSD's documentation webpages are a great example of
this. (They also let you download all the documentation in all the
formats by installing it as a single package)

Brett noting that people will want a GUI is completely correct. This
makes me wonder: I know OpenVMS has X, but does it also easily run Xaw
programs that typically come with X, like xcalc, xclock, xedit, etc?
Barely related, but I found the fastest and surest way to learn how to
use an OS is to use it as your only desktop for a few months, without
falling in to the temptations to switching back to what you were using
before.

I really enjoyed reading this interview. Awesome~
Jan-Erik Soderholm
2017-02-15 14:16:03 UTC
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Post by Moai
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
http://blog.ecubesystems.com/brett-cameron-interview/
That was fun and informative to read.
I know my perspective, as someone twenty years old who only works with
Unix, is somewhat different than most, I still thought of something that
"What can be done to attract young developers to the virtues of OpenVMS
development?"
Simply making it easier for people to access OpenVMS machines would be the
first step. The x86 port is a great step in this direction: if a person
could install it on his own PC, he'd be able to work with it and play
around with it. Ever since the deathrow cluster went down quite a while
ago, I haven't been able to use OpenVMS: if someone can't use OpenVMS, how
could he expect himself to become or remained skilled with it?
Another thing would be to ensure all the documentation is close to each
other: I think FreeBSD's documentation webpages are a great example of
this. (They also let you download all the documentation in all the formats
by installing it as a single package)
Brett noting that people will want a GUI is completely correct. This makes
me wonder: I know OpenVMS has X, but does it also easily run Xaw programs
that typically come with X, like xcalc, xclock, xedit, etc?
Barely related, but I found the fastest and surest way to learn how to use
an OS is to use it as your only desktop for a few months,...
Since it has been clearly stated that OpenVMS will never be a general
desktop environment, you do not want to do that. Your normal Windows
or Linux desktop i just so much better for everything that you want
to use a desktop for.

And when they talk about GUI development envorinments, I'm very sure that
they do not talk about tools running them on OpenVMS itself.
Post by Moai
without falling
in to the temptations to switching back to what you were using before.
I really enjoyed reading this interview. Awesome~
John E. Malmberg
2017-02-15 14:38:17 UTC
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Post by Moai
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
http://blog.ecubesystems.com/brett-cameron-interview/
That was fun and informative to read.
I know my perspective, as someone twenty years old who only works with
Unix, is somewhat different than most, I still thought of something that
"What can be done to attract young developers to the virtues of OpenVMS
development?"
Simply making it easier for people to access OpenVMS machines would be
the first step. The x86 port is a great step in this direction: if a
person could install it on his own PC, he'd be able to work with it and
play around with it. Ever since the deathrow cluster went down quite a
while ago, I haven't been able to use OpenVMS: if someone can't use
OpenVMS, how could he expect himself to become or remained skilled with it?
encompasserve.org runs VMS and you can request an account there.

SimH/VAX will build on most platforms.

Someone has posted you-tube videos of the ES-40 Emulator booting VMS 8.4
well enough to install packages.
Post by Moai
Another thing would be to ensure all the documentation is close to each
other: I think FreeBSD's documentation webpages are a great example of
this. (They also let you download all the documentation in all the
formats by installing it as a single package)
Brett noting that people will want a GUI is completely correct. This
makes me wonder: I know OpenVMS has X, but does it also easily run Xaw
programs that typically come with X, like xcalc, xclock, xedit, etc?
Barely related, but I found the fastest and surest way to learn how to
use an OS is to use it as your only desktop for a few months, without
falling in to the temptations to switching back to what you were using
before.
X-11 is not suitable for a modern GUI, as it assumes a persistent
connection.

If I were to be doing anything in this area, I would be looking at
having client certificate authentication through a web browser session.
A virtual frame buffer could be used for the rendering on the host side
to allow the X11 API to be easily used, which of course increases the
amount of memory needed.

But long term, using a standard web browser for a GUI is the way to go.

Regards,
-John
***@qsl.net_work
Moai
2017-02-16 17:32:43 UTC
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Post by John E. Malmberg
encompasserve.org runs VMS and you can request an account there.
THANKS for this information! :D



(I read the other replies too: I know it's not a desktop, the immersion
method is just a fast way to learn things)
IanD
2017-02-15 15:15:30 UTC
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On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 1:10:01 AM UTC+11, Moai wrote:

<snip>
Post by Moai
"What can be done to attract young developers to the virtues of OpenVMS
development?"
Simply making it easier for people to access OpenVMS machines would be
the first step. The x86 port is a great step in this direction: if a
person could install it on his own PC, he'd be able to work with it and
play around with it. Ever since the deathrow cluster went down quite a
while ago, I haven't been able to use OpenVMS: if someone can't use
OpenVMS, how could he expect himself to become or remained skilled with it?
On an IT forum I once wrote up some detailed instructions on how to go through the request process at the time to get VMS licenses etc and how to get an emulator installed and running

The whole process died in the arse because HP at the time made it so bloody difficult if not near impossible to obtain the media!

Then they made things easier...

But now we are stuck again. Sure, HP still run the program (I think it still works) but VSI have released Alpha now, but VSI still have no hobbyist program in place

I work on the latest version of VSI vms on Itaniums. I used to work on older versions of VMS on Alpha but changed roles.

I used the hobbyist program to try stuff out at home and learn new stuff

I would try stuff at home that would mimic what they could do at work and then try and get them to introduce it there. I think I contributed to the platform not being replaced as quick as they wanted to move away from vms

Loosing the ability to run with the latest VMS at home to try stuff out on is a sad state of affairs for me. I never built code at home and deployed it at work, this to me would be wrong but I did use the hobbyist program to learn new features and to try out later versions of RDB etc and to skill up on things I could not do at home (like cluster config changes etc)

Just when is VSI going to have it's own hobbyist program?
Post by Moai
Another thing would be to ensure all the documentation is close to each
other: I think FreeBSD's documentation webpages are a great example of
this. (They also let you download all the documentation in all the
formats by installing it as a single package)
There is no documentation being served up to the wider public from VSI that I have access to. It's all HPE content only. Why?. I don't know. Maybe it's a license thing? It is rather disappointing though
Post by Moai
Brett noting that people will want a GUI is completely correct. This
makes me wonder: I know OpenVMS has X, but does it also easily run Xaw
programs that typically come with X, like xcalc, xclock, xedit, etc?
Barely related, but I found the fastest and surest way to learn how to
use an OS is to use it as your only desktop for a few months, without
falling in to the temptations to switching back to what you were using
before.
Most network folk at places I worked at hated X. DecWindows was incomplete in my limited experience. Trying to debug code using the gui debugger was an exercise in extreme frustration. Functionality not fully implemented and slow as hell led me to abandon it quick smart. I did however do a lot of work with PSPA, which I thought was really well designed for it's time, except the data would flow back to your session and then be displayed - some stuff used to take longer than 8 hours and by the time you came in the next day your x session had closed because the stupid network folk would drop your connection if no activity was detected, x for some reason didn't register on the port so your session would be killed
Post by Moai
I really enjoyed reading this interview. Awesome~
So did I. I like his delivery style. I have watched his talk on VMS + rabbitmq and enjoyed it.
Cameron is another person whom I enjoy listening to. Claire would be another, actually, not trying to pit them against each other, but Claire I find really good to listen to, shame these people do not get out more and share more about what they are doing - knowledgeable folk such as these lot have awesome ways of articulating complex topics, simply
Stephen Hoffman
2017-02-15 20:19:26 UTC
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This makes me wonder: I know OpenVMS has X, but does it also easily run
Xaw programs that typically come with X, like xcalc, xclock, xedit, etc?
Easily? Sometimes. Sometimes not. Older versions of some of the X
tools are provided with DECwindows, some (usually older) ports of other
tools and apps are available, and the X11 version itself is very old.
The usual presentation is either an older version of CDE or Motif, and
you won't find Qt or other tools around. There'll be serious
problems getting newer apps to work with the implementation, and there
are some application-level porting differences such as the
XtAppAddInput() call having different and platform-specific arguments,
too.
Barely related, but I found the fastest and surest way to learn how to
use an OS is to use it as your only desktop for a few months, without
falling in to the temptations to switching back to what you were using
before.
VSI has stated that OpenVMS is for servers. Not for workstations.

Beyond the GUI itself — that's only the very tip of this whole desktop
or workstation iceberg — there are very few apps for the sorts of tasks
that are now commonly expected and needed by folks looking for client
computing, too. Run an inventory of what you expect, and see if it'll
work or not. Some folks live in terminal sessions running
OpenVMS-specific text editors reading and writing ASCII or DEC MCS
(mostly ISO Latin 1) text files, and OpenVMS works for that. Other
folks have different expectations for their desktops. For many of the
common tasks on OpenVMS, you'll be using terminal sessions and be
willing to haul around your own tool chains for accessing common file
formats such as Word or Excel or PDF or otherwise, or not need to
access any of those sorts of files. Or you'll be using another client
computer a I did. There is no modern web browser available, either.
http://h41379.www4.hpe.com/openvms/products/ips/firefox/index.html

I used OpenVMS as my desktop for twenty years, though stopped that a
decade ago. Back when I was doing that, that was largely possible
because I had a Microsoft Windows box alongside to deal with all the
files and activities that OpenVMS couldn't do. Over time, more and
more migrated over to the Windows system, and to the Windows Server
systems behind it.

Get yourself a hobbyist license and media and go install OpenVMS
yourself on either real hardware you've acquired or on an emulator
you've loaded onto something else, and learn what to expect, and learn
what's necessary to (for instance) set up IP networking and NTP time
synchronization or other such tasks. Or — to defer having to learn how
to install and configure OpenVMS — register for and log into the
decuserve server (telnet to decuserve.org — telnet, not ssh — and
follow the bouncing ball) and maybe then learn how to SET DISPLAY and
to aim a remote DECwindows session back at some local X Windows server
system you've previously configured. (Getting a decuserve login is
also how you can register for the hobbyist licenses, so that's almost
invariably going to be on your path to learning more about OpenVMS.
Once you have a decuserve login, enter the command HOBBYIST to get the
license information for the hobbyist registration. Also have a look
at the NOTES conferences while you're there.)
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
Richard Maher
2017-02-18 02:26:21 UTC
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Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
http://blog.ecubesystems.com/brett-cameron-interview/
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/puff_piece
IanD
2017-02-18 11:38:12 UTC
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Post by Richard Maher
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
http://blog.ecubesystems.com/brett-cameron-interview/
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/puff_piece
Harsh!

Yes, the interview lacked actual concrete steps and floated around actual solid ways new developers would actually be attracted to the platform but they know it's needed and were not shying away from that

How does one modernise 15+ years of neglect? One step at a time and until x86 is out the door, I suspect these other fundamental aspects are going to have to wait

Not sure I'd call it a pure puff piece though
Richard Maher
2017-02-22 14:01:05 UTC
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Post by IanD
Post by Richard Maher
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
http://blog.ecubesystems.com/brett-cameron-interview/
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/puff_piece
Harsh!
Yes, the interview lacked actual concrete steps and floated around actual solid ways new developers would actually be attracted to the platform but they know it's needed and were not shying away from that
How does one modernise 15+ years of neglect? One step at a time and until x86 is out the door, I suspect these other fundamental aspects are going to have to wait
Not sure I'd call it a pure puff piece though
Q: Dr Bob, I have to say what an absolute pleasure it is to talk to you
when I know how precious your time is.

A: No problem valued partner! Without the likes of you siphoning VMS
development funds through my well trodden channel where would we be?

Q: You're too kind Doctor (blush). But seriously how can you fit in
solving famine in the 3rd world and curing AIDS while dragging VMS
kicking and screaming into the 21st century?

A: Well it isn't easy my dear colon flosser but with the help of your
remarkable IDE and middleware suite we can just about do it. We've
managed to totally kill the independent contractor market for VMS while
retaining our own jobs for 30 years so it's all gravy really! Was a bit
surprised when all those talented engineers were let go while me and
Apps milked that piece o' shit gSOAP for all it's worth but there's one
born every minute eh?

ad nauseum . . .

Look Brett's one of the nicest blokes you'll meet and extremely capable
but this shit is just not worthy of all involved :-(

Next Week: - Son of Apps is grandfathered into the incestuous "talent"
pool which is the sad and sorry self-serving mediocrity that is VSI :-(
Richard Maher
2017-02-22 14:08:06 UTC
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Post by Richard Maher
Post by IanD
Post by Richard Maher
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
http://blog.ecubesystems.com/brett-cameron-interview/
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/puff_piece
Harsh!
Yes, the interview lacked actual concrete steps and floated around
actual solid ways new developers would actually be attracted to the
platform but they know it's needed and were not shying away from that
How does one modernise 15+ years of neglect? One step at a time and
until x86 is out the door, I suspect these other fundamental aspects
are going to have to wait
Not sure I'd call it a pure puff piece though
Q: Dr Bob, I have to say what an absolute pleasure it is to talk to you
when I know how precious your time is.
A: No problem valued partner! Without the likes of you siphoning VMS
development funds through my well trodden channel where would we be?
Q: You're too kind Doctor (blush). But seriously how can you fit in
solving famine in the 3rd world and curing AIDS while dragging VMS
kicking and screaming into the 21st century?
A: Well it isn't easy my dear colon flosser but with the help of your
remarkable IDE and middleware suite we can just about do it. We've
managed to totally kill the independent contractor market for VMS while
retaining our own jobs for 30 years so it's all gravy really! Was a bit
surprised when all those talented engineers were let go while me and
Apps milked that piece o' shit gSOAP for all it's worth but there's one
born every minute eh?
ad nauseum . . .
Look Brett's one of the nicest blokes you'll meet and extremely capable
but this shit is just not worthy of all involved :-(
Next Week: - Son of Apps is grandfathered into the incestuous "talent"
pool which is the sad and sorry self-serving mediocrity that is VSI :-(
Sorry, references: -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip_'n'_Dale

Goofy Gophers[edit]
A recurring shtick often mistakenly attributed to Chip 'n' Dale is the
characters' alleged use of politeness: "After you," … "No, I insist,
after you!" This gag, from the early-1900s Alphonse and Gaston comic
strip, is used by another studio's characters: Warner Bros' Mac and Tosh
as the Goofy Gophers. However, in the 1950 short "Out on a Limb," Chip
'n' Dale do engage in a round of this (possibly in reference to the
Goofy Gophers) before Chip stops it from getting out of hand with a
swift kick to Dale's rear end.
Richard Maher
2017-02-22 14:17:36 UTC
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crap mostly
VMS Sprint 10.0 workshop


God only knows what the scrum will look like!

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