Discussion:
SCSI drive from ES45 on a PC
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Dale Dellutri
2017-05-19 17:49:50 UTC
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I have an Ultra320 15Krpm 72.8GB drive (HP model number
BF0728A4CB) that I took out of an ES45 (from a hot-swap
BA610-6D drive cage). I'd like to use the drvie on a PC.

I have a Ultra320 Single channel PCIe SCSI Host Bus
adapter card (HP 439946-001) for the PC. I've used this
card successfully with an SDLT320 tape drive in a desktop
enclosure.

What do I order to get a desktop enclosure for the disk
drive? It doesn't need to have 6 slots. I'd be happy
with just one. But I need something that I can slide
the disk drive into.

I want a desktop enclosure that is standalone, not
something that requires a certain kind of computer.
--
Dale Dellutri <***@panQQQix.com> (lose the Q's)
Rich Jordan
2017-05-19 18:32:00 UTC
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Post by Dale Dellutri
I have an Ultra320 15Krpm 72.8GB drive (HP model number
BF0728A4CB) that I took out of an ES45 (from a hot-swap
BA610-6D drive cage). I'd like to use the drvie on a PC.
I have a Ultra320 Single channel PCIe SCSI Host Bus
adapter card (HP 439946-001) for the PC. I've used this
card successfully with an SDLT320 tape drive in a desktop
enclosure.
What do I order to get a desktop enclosure for the disk
drive? It doesn't need to have 6 slots. I'd be happy
with just one. But I need something that I can slide
the disk drive into.
I want a desktop enclosure that is standalone, not
something that requires a certain kind of computer.
--
Presume that is still in the Compaq style universal drive carrier? If you dump the carrier you should have a standard 3.5" drive with SCA connector. Shop Ebay/Amazon or other vendors that might carry older tech and look for an LVD SCSI enclosure with 68 pin cable connections. The internal cable would likely be a 68 pin also so you'd need an SCA80 to 68 pin adapter. Should not be too hard to find but I expect they're not as cheap as they used to be when initially obsoleted. SCSI units always had fans but 15K drives run pretty warm so you'd want to be certain of airflow.

You could also look for an external SDLT/LTO SCSI Tape Drive enclosure with or without the drive, especially if you can find a half-height unit. Disassemble the tape drive for the fun of it and the cool 'radial engine' looking drive motor for decorative purposes. Again remove the disk drive from the carrier, and you still might need an SCA80-68 pin adapter, and then make a cover for the hole in front to guide airflow over the drive. Fan must work. You might have to drill a hole in the verticals that held the tape drive for the disk mounting screws (or not, sometimes they line up).

If you are feeling 'Maker' you could shop ebay/amazon/whatever for a Compaq internal drive cage from a server. There were both 2 and 4-high cages in different servers; make sure its LVD. They will hold your drive in the stock carrier and are all SCA, so no SCA80-68 adapters needed. They could be mounted inside a full-height external SCSI SDLT/LTO tape drive enclosure with a little mickey-mousing. The cages almost always had 68 pin connection points and male AMP power connectors on them (so the power connector and SCSI connector inside the SCSI enclosure would plug in to the cage). I did the same with a Supermicro cage years ago, installed in a (then generic and cheap) 4 drive SCSI tower. It worked with any 3.5" SCA drive with the Supermicro carriers (included), and even let me install the IBM 2.5" SCSI drives with adapters into those carriers and work in the cage. If you don't have an enclosure with a power supply a standard PC power supply should work and can be cleanly duct-taped to the back of the enclosure if it won't fit inside. I kid not. Worked for many years at home and the Supermicro drive tower still works here at work on a test system.
Stephen Hoffman
2017-05-19 19:25:33 UTC
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I have an Ultra320 15Krpm 72.8GB drive (HP model number BF0728A4CB)
that I took out of an ES45 (from a hot-swap BA610-6D drive cage). I'd
like to use the drvie on a PC.
I have a Ultra320 Single channel PCIe SCSI Host Bus adapter card (HP
439946-001) for the PC. I've used this card successfully with an
SDLT320 tape drive in a desktop enclosure.
What do I order to get a desktop enclosure for the disk drive? It
doesn't need to have 6 slots. I'd be happy with just one. But I need
something that I can slide the disk drive into.
I want a desktop enclosure that is standalone, not something that
requires a certain kind of computer.
AFAIK, no good option exists. Last small external SCSI enclosures
I've seen were for CD drives and most of twenty years ago, too. Those
were obviously not configured for Universal drives, either.

As for an alternative approach, a 5 TB external disk with USB 3.0 costs
around US$120 on Amazon. You'll very likely spend more than that
getting any Universal HDD connected and working on an arbitrary x86
box, in parts and time and hassles. I've not encountered a small
external enclosure for the Universal disks. You're probably going to
end up building that from an existing cage, or maybe 3D printing an
enclosure. If you want to use the sled, then you're going to have to
figure out how to get power and cooling for the cage, too. Buf if
that's what you really need, here are some of the parts that can be
useful when fabricating your own...

If your PC has enough room for a cage... Some of the following MIGHT
work — the specs are a little unclear if these are all SCSI Universal
cages, but it's worth rummaging, and I've NOT confirmed that all of
these are cages for the SCSI Universal HDD series. Also wiring for the
power connection and sufficient cooling...

https://www.amazon.com/HP-ProLiant-ML310-G3-404173-001/dp/B00OGNT4H2/ref=sr_1_22?ie=UTF8&qid=1495219410


Two-slot cage part number (one 1" and one 1.6" bay): 244059-B21

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-359719-001-SCSI-6x1-Drive-Cage-with-Backplane-Proliant-ML370-/400941042112


Some doc for 359719-001 and 371722-001 :

http://images10.newegg.com/User-Manual/User_Manual_59-105-011.pdf

https://www.amazon.com/Sparepart-CAGE-SCSI-SMPLX-359719-001/dp/B003D3GT24?SubscriptionId=AKIAILSHYYTFIVPWUY6Q


The AlphaServer DS10 series had a small front storage cage option
around that might also work here, as a starting point for constructing
your own enclosure.

The SCSI disk in the sled can be removed easily, and the connectors are
standard. Retrofitting the disk into a different box or replacing the
disk in the sled are both feasible. Getting power into the cage can
be more interesting, as the connectors likely aren't found on systems
other than ProLiant and Alpha and equivalent server hardware. You'll
likely end up cutting off and replacing the connectors. Cooling, too,
as the cages don't have fans.

Alternatively, scrounge up one of the 4300-series enclosures or
analogs, some HDD blanks for the empty bays, and use that. These are
unfortunately also big, ugly and loud. But that's the least-hassle
approach, if you don't want to build and power and cool a cage in a
scrounged or 3D printed enclosure.

https://www.hpe.com/h20195/v2/GetPDF.aspx/c04283713.pdf

TL;DR: AFAIK, no good options exist for getting Universal sleds
connected to arbitrary x86 boxes whether internal or external.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
David Froble
2017-05-19 21:00:08 UTC
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Post by Dale Dellutri
I have an Ultra320 15Krpm 72.8GB drive (HP model number
BF0728A4CB) that I took out of an ES45 (from a hot-swap
BA610-6D drive cage). I'd like to use the drvie on a PC.
First question I'd ask is "why?"

Don't be so fixated on one task such that you spend more then a perhaps better
alternative.

You can get a small SSD ( < 100 GB ) for less than $100. If you have a PC with
SATA, it just plugs in.

As others mentioned, taking the drive out of the caddy offers more options.
Steven Schweda
2017-05-19 21:55:46 UTC
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Most of my external SCA SCSI disks are in Sun 611 boxes.
At least some of then say "UltraSCSI" on the front, but I
wouldn't guarantee 320 of anything. Different sub-models
have different internal stuff (SCA connector, 68-pin cable,
50-pin cable, ...), so a little care in shopping can be
helpful.

On my Dell Precision 490 with some kind of LSI Logic card
and some Seagate ST373307LC drives, at power up, the BIOSy
stuff says that the internal drives do "320", but the
external drive (whose box does say "UltraSCSI") apparently
negotiated down to "40". Could be related to the (Sun)
cable, or the built-into-the-box auto-termination, or some
other thing.

After many years, the "rubber" (polyurethane?) feet tend
to turn to goo (de-polymerized polyurethane, i.e. urethane?),
but otherwise they seem to last.
You can get a small SSD [...]
Perhaps he wants to run some open-source software. Does
"sed" even work with a non-SCSI disk drive?
Baldrick
2017-05-23 17:17:53 UTC
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Post by Dale Dellutri
I have an Ultra320 15Krpm 72.8GB drive (HP model number
BF0728A4CB) that I took out of an ES45 (from a hot-swap
BA610-6D drive cage). I'd like to use the drvie on a PC.
...
Post by Dale Dellutri
I want a desktop enclosure that is standalone, not
something that requires a certain kind of computer.
I have SUCCESSFULLY used the "WHITE" StorageWorks shelves
with drives on PC's uSCSI, they were the old NT ones, and
not compatible with the beige or blue shelves with VMS.

I don't immediately have the model numbers at hand but you'll
probably be faced with swapping a drive in a WHITE SSB with
the one you want, and swapping drives is a bit of an art!

OK why did I attach a shelf to my Wintel box? Well I decided
to set up a stripe for audio work but its performance wasn't
as good as I expected but an interesting experiment. I was
given it along with a pile of DEC kit and knew it was no
good for the VMS kit. Use computer management to format
the drive(s) for use.

Baldrick.
Hans Vlems
2017-05-23 21:03:52 UTC
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Hmm, I mix white enclosure disks with blue bricks in white and blue enclosures. No problems. Even when connected to a SCSI controller in a pc.
I've white enclosures on blue alphas and vice versa.
Again no issues.

That said, connecting SCSI devices to modern pc's is throwing money away. Mains power is expensive. Besides SATA or SAS disks are inexpensive to operate.

Hans
Stephen Hoffman
2017-05-24 16:55:19 UTC
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I have SUCCESSFULLY used the "WHITE" StorageWorks shelves with drives
on PC's uSCSI, they were the old NT ones, and not compatible with the
beige or blue shelves with VMS. ... I was given it along with a pile
of DEC kit and knew it was no good for the VMS kit.
The white generic-branded StorageWorks SCSI disk drive bricks should
work fine on OpenVMS starting ~V6.2, and all of the StorageWorks drives
will work fine elsewhere, assuming compatible SCSI hardware and the
appropriate sacrifices of rubber chickens to your SCSI bus. Well,
except for the green bricks, but who knows what bus gremlins might be
installed in those bricks. Any SCSI disks lacking WRITE LONG support
will get kicked out of HBVS sets on disk errors, too. FWIW.

Biggest issue is usually the usual
wide-versus-narrow-versus-SE-versus-differential with the occasional
HVD and wide-hostile widgets tossed into the mix see who is paying
attention to the cryptic SCSI iconography — the aforementioned
compatible SCSI hardware — for what HDD works with what controller.

Using a modern USB 2 or USB 3 or whatever-bus-via-USB-C is usually
preferable to dredging up StorageWorks SCSI widgets, though. And a
whole lot more storage. Quite possibly faster too, depending on...

I really don't miss those days. Kinda like the Q-bus. It was nice
when it was new, but we've learned a few things since then.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
David Turner
2017-05-24 18:59:22 UTC
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You'll need

1)) Tabletop scsi enclosure
2) SSI LVD Terminator
3) EXternal SCSI Cable
4) SCA to HD68 converter


If you want to order, call me 912 786 8501
David
Island Computers
Post by Dale Dellutri
I have an Ultra320 15Krpm 72.8GB drive (HP model number
BF0728A4CB) that I took out of an ES45 (from a hot-swap
BA610-6D drive cage). I'd like to use the drvie on a PC.
I have a Ultra320 Single channel PCIe SCSI Host Bus
adapter card (HP 439946-001) for the PC. I've used this
card successfully with an SDLT320 tape drive in a desktop
enclosure.
What do I order to get a desktop enclosure for the disk
drive? It doesn't need to have 6 slots. I'd be happy
with just one. But I need something that I can slide
the disk drive into.
I want a desktop enclosure that is standalone, not
something that requires a certain kind of computer.
Dale Dellutri
2017-05-31 15:07:17 UTC
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Post by Dale Dellutri
I have an Ultra320 15Krpm 72.8GB drive (HP model number
BF0728A4CB) that I took out of an ES45 (from a hot-swap
BA610-6D drive cage). I'd like to use the drvie on a PC.
I have a Ultra320 Single channel PCIe SCSI Host Bus
adapter card (HP 439946-001) for the PC. I've used this
card successfully with an SDLT320 tape drive in a desktop
enclosure.
What do I order to get a desktop enclosure for the disk
drive? It doesn't need to have 6 slots. I'd be happy
with just one. But I need something that I can slide
the disk drive into.
I want a desktop enclosure that is standalone, not
something that requires a certain kind of computer.
I know it's not cool to repsond to one's own post, but I
thought I should report on the outcome of this quest.

I bought two items from scsi4me.com:

1. TMC SM-077 Internal Ultra320 80pin SCA to 68pin
Converter. Support SE/LVD to Ultra320 speeds.
2. SATA 15-pin male to 4-pin female Molex
(to power item 1 from an internal SATA power cable)
Total price: aboout $27.

This combo worked. I connected the drive outside
the computer, leaving an opening for the power
cable to the converter. I used a Fedora25 live USB
drive to boot the machine, and it found the
controller (HP 439946-001), and the attached drive.

Other posters have asked why I wanted to do this.
A few reasons:

1. Possibly test VMS2Linux which reads ODS5 file systems:
http://www.vms2linux.de/ods5fs.html
I haven't tried this yet.
2. Bring back some disks from the dead by formatting a
drive that VMS init would not format with error message
INIT-F-FORMAT Invalid media format. They can be
formatted under Linux via:
dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdb bs=516
That worked. After doing this, VMS init would format
the previously "Invalid media format" drive. I
recovered two disk drives that way. Both of them
became very hot. This is not a good solution for
long usage: not enough air-flow.
3. Read the SMART data from the drive using Linux:
smartctl -a /dev/sdb
That worked also. One of the drives reported that it
had exceeded the error threshhold. I formatted that
one and put it in the recycling bin.

My original question was to get a standalone enclosure
with an SCA backplane. The Dell Powervault 220S is such
an enclosure, though it is meant for a datacenter rack.
I bought one on ebay with 12x 300 GB 10K rpm drives for
about $87, which includes the shipping cost (80 lbs!).
I haven't tested it yet, but, supposedly, the drives are
all working. I'll find out soon.
--
Dale Dellutri <***@panQQQix.com> (lose the Q's)
Stephen Hoffman
2017-05-31 19:44:48 UTC
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Post by Dale Dellutri
http://www.vms2linux.de/ods5fs.html
I haven't tried this yet.
Image-copy the disk over into a file, transfer it, and mount the file
on the Unix box.
Post by Dale Dellutri
2. Bring back some disks from the dead by formatting a drive that VMS
init would not format with error message INIT-F-FORMAT Invalid media
format.
Interesting. I don't see that error in HELP /MESSAGE/FACILITY=INIT,
though there is a FORMAT error that shows up for floppy and other
devices associated with INITIALIZE that's oddly not (also) listed in
the HELP text for the INIT facility errors. (Bug or limitation in the
HELP library, apparently.) Not sure what the context or the trigger
is. Dismounting and then rebooting if necessary usually clears SCSI
widgets that get lodged into weird states, though.
Post by Dale Dellutri
They can be
dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdb bs=516
That worked. After doing this, VMS init would format the previously
"Invalid media format" drive. I recovered two disk drives that way.
Both of them became very hot. This is not a good solution for long
usage: not enough air-flow.
I'd expect INITIALIZE /ERASE to have gotten that cleared up, possibly
after a reboot if the device got locked into an odd state. 516? Not
512? AFAIK, dd doesn't clobber anything that INITIALIZE should care
about.

I'd still go with a USB-era storage device on the Unix box, or — if
tossing disk data between an ES45 and a Unix box is a requirement —
maybe add a USB adapter in the AlphaServer and use some USB-2 media.
Newer disks, and getting a USB disk below 2 TiB (for OpenVMS) is still
feasible.
Post by Dale Dellutri
smartctl -a /dev/sdb
That worked also. One of the drives reported that it had exceeded
the error threshhold. I formatted that one and put it in the recycling
bin.
I usually toss the old disk drives when they start showing visible errors.
Post by Dale Dellutri
My original question was to get a standalone enclosure with an SCA
backplane. The Dell Powervault 220S is such an enclosure, though it is
meant for a datacenter rack. I bought one on ebay with 12x 300 GB 10K
rpm drives for about $87, which includes the shipping cost (80 lbs!). I
haven't tested it yet, but, supposedly, the drives are all working.
I'll find out soon.
My bad. I'd thought you weren't looking to dismount the SCSI disks
from the sleds? But if you were not, then the DEC/Compaq/HP/HPE
backplanes for the (presumably Universal) disks are the easiest option,
but they're neither small nor quiet. Careful lifting those
StorageWorks shelves too, as it's easy to damage the protruding fan
housings on the 4300-series boxes.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
Dale Dellutri
2017-05-31 20:44:20 UTC
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Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Dale Dellutri
http://www.vms2linux.de/ods5fs.html
I haven't tried this yet.
Image-copy the disk over into a file, transfer it, and mount the file
on the Unix box.
Post by Dale Dellutri
2. Bring back some disks from the dead by formatting a drive that VMS
init would not format with error message INIT-F-FORMAT Invalid media
format.
Interesting. I don't see that error in HELP /MESSAGE/FACILITY=INIT,
though there is a FORMAT error that shows up for floppy and other
devices associated with INITIALIZE that's oddly not (also) listed in
the HELP text for the INIT facility errors. (Bug or limitation in the
HELP library, apparently.) Not sure what the context or the trigger
is. Dismounting and then rebooting if necessary usually clears SCSI
widgets that get lodged into weird states, though.
Post by Dale Dellutri
They can be
dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdb bs=516
That worked. After doing this, VMS init would format the previously
"Invalid media format" drive. I recovered two disk drives that way.
Both of them became very hot. This is not a good solution for long
usage: not enough air-flow.
I'd expect INITIALIZE /ERASE to have gotten that cleared up, possibly
after a reboot if the device got locked into an odd state. 516? Not
512?
Aaagh! Mis-typed. Should be 512.
Post by Stephen Hoffman
AFAIK, dd doesn't clobber anything that INITIALIZE should care
about.
I'd still go with a USB-era storage device on the Unix box, or ? if
tossing disk data between an ES45 and a Unix box is a requirement ?
maybe add a USB adapter in the AlphaServer and use some USB-2 media.
Newer disks, and getting a USB disk below 2 TiB (for OpenVMS) is still
feasible.
Do you know a part or order number for a USB adapter, specifically
for an ES40, ES45 and DS25?

I know that the USB ports on my ES40's aren't usable:
http://h41379.www4.hpe.com/wizard/wiz_8885.html
Does adding an adapter make the new USB ports usable under VMS 8.2
and 8.3?

Two of your responses mention re-booting. We try to avoid that
with our work load.
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Dale Dellutri
smartctl -a /dev/sdb
That worked also. One of the drives reported that it had exceeded
the error threshhold. I formatted that one and put it in the recycling
bin.
I usually toss the old disk drives when they start showing visible errors.
Post by Dale Dellutri
My original question was to get a standalone enclosure with an SCA
backplane. The Dell Powervault 220S is such an enclosure, though it is
meant for a datacenter rack. I bought one on ebay with 12x 300 GB 10K
rpm drives for about $87, which includes the shipping cost (80 lbs!). I
haven't tested it yet, but, supposedly, the drives are all working.
I'll find out soon.
My bad. I'd thought you weren't looking to dismount the SCSI disks
from the sleds? But if you were not, then the DEC/Compaq/HP/HPE
backplanes for the (presumably Universal) disks are the easiest option,
but they're neither small nor quiet. Careful lifting those
StorageWorks shelves too, as it's easy to damage the protruding fan
housings on the 4300-series boxes.
--
Dale Dellutri <***@panQQQix.com> (lose the Q's)
Steven Schweda
2017-05-31 22:52:06 UTC
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Post by Dale Dellutri
[...]
You might know less than you think. Originally, the
built-in USB ports on an XP1000 were effectively inert, but
not now (VMS V8.3 and up?):

UCM> show devi /phys


BEGIN_PHYS_BUS 0 (OHC0)

PHYS_PATH 2.0.0.0.0.0
PHYS_PATH_STATE Connected. Configured by interface 0
DEVICE_SPEED Full Speed
PHYS_DEVICE_NAME DNA1

END_PHYS_BUS 0
[...]


ALP $ show devi /full DNA1

Disk ALP$DNA1:, device type Lexar USB Flash Drive 1100, is online, file-oriented
device, shareable, available to cluster, error logging is enabled.
[...]


In a hole on the add-in card, the same gizmo looks like
this:

BEGIN_PHYS_BUS 3 (EHA0)

PHYS_PATH 4.0.0.0.0.0
PHYS_PATH_STATE Connected. Configured by interface 0
DEVICE_SPEED High Speed
PHYS_DEVICE_NAME DNA1

END_PHYS_BUS 3


I assume that "High Speed" (EHCI?, USB 2?) is better than
"Full Speed" (OHCI?, USB 1?).
Post by Dale Dellutri
Do you know a part or order number for a USB adapter,
specifically for an ES40, ES45 and DS25?
Not exactly. I got my USB cards at the local junk store,
looking for cards with an NEC µPD720101 or (720100) chip.
Scanning SYS$SYSTEM:SYS$CONFIG.DAT for "USB Controller"
should provide still more possibilities. An Ebay listing
with a close-up picture of the chip could be useful in
today's junk market.

As an example, one of my add-in cards appears as follows
in a ">>>show config" report:

Slot Option Hose 1, Bus 2, PCI
9/0 00351033/010514C2
9/1 00351033/010514C2
9/2 00E01033/020514C2

1033 = NEC, 0035+00E0 = "Dual OHCI controllers plus Single
EHCI controller" (I gather, from http://pcidatabase.com).


Another interesting topic would be (future?) support for
USB 3.
Robert A. Brooks
2017-06-01 00:54:05 UTC
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Post by Steven Schweda
Another interesting topic would be (future?) support for
USB 3.
Yeah, we know.

We're talking internally about our plans for USB support on X86.

Hint: it'll eventually be better than what we have today on IA64, although
that's a pretty low bar to hurdle.
--
-- Rob
Steven Schweda
2017-06-01 02:56:24 UTC
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Post by Robert A. Brooks
Yeah, we know.
We're talking internally about our plans for USB support on X86.
That's what I expected/hoped to hear. I know
approximately nothing about the details/differences, but I
did stick some USB 3 cards into my Mac Pro (2008) and Dell
Precision T7400 (Windows, GNU/Linux), and observed some
significant speed increases for file transfer from/to a USB
(3) external disk drive, so there seems to be some value to
the new stuff.

I didn't bother trying one of those cards in an XP1000.

Stephen Hoffman
2017-05-31 23:06:30 UTC
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On Wed, 31 May 2017 15:44:48, Stephen Hoffman
Post by Stephen Hoffman
I'd still go with a USB-era storage device on the Unix box, or ? if
tossing disk data between an ES45 and a Unix box is a requirement ?
maybe add a USB adapter in the AlphaServer and use some USB-2 media.
Newer disks, and getting a USB disk below 2 TiB (for OpenVMS) is still
feasible.
Do you know a part or order number for a USB adapter, specifically for
an ES40, ES45 and DS25?
http://h41379.www4.hpe.com/wizard/wiz_8885.html
Does adding an adapter make the new USB ports usable under VMS 8.2 and 8.3?
"The ADS Technology Turbo Quad 4 PCI USB controller has been mentioned
as having had some testing with OpenVMS, as have various USB
controllers with the Lucent/Agere USS344 USB chipset, or the Symbios
6080 USB chipset. The NEC EHCI USB 2.0 chipset (NEC uPD 720100 or
equivalent) common in various recent PCI device controllers also
appears to work, as it presents the OHCI necessary for the OpenVMS
drivers. The AlphaStation XP1000 integrated (Cypress) USB can be coaxed
into operation, as well. These devices all present OHCI." What works
in your box and what USB widgets you can find available, donno. These
things tend to have a product shelf life approaching the longevity of a
fruit fly. Worse, the same model numbers can be used for different
widgets.
Two of your responses mention re-booting. We try to avoid that with
our work load.
Goals involving both puttering around with non-quiesce-able SCSI buses
and not occasionally rebooting when some widget gets stuck tend to not
align all that well.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
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