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VMS at 40 promotional material ?
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Simon Clubley
2017-04-24 00:26:09 UTC
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Does anyone have any plans for any VMS at 40 promotional material ?

Thanks,

Simon.
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Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
c***@gmail.com
2017-04-24 09:14:05 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
Does anyone have any plans for any VMS at 40 promotional material ?
Thanks,
Simon.
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Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
Yes
Simon Clubley
2017-04-24 12:11:33 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
Does anyone have any plans for any VMS at 40 promotional material ?
Yes
Excellent. Thanks Clair.

Simon.
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Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
Stephen Hoffman
2017-04-24 15:15:21 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
Does anyone have any plans for any VMS at 40 promotional material ?
I'd rather see VSI invest in presentations and efforts around the
future of OpenVMS, and rather less on commemorating the past.

Face forward. OpenVMS isn't in the best of places in the market, and
VSI is working diligently to try to remediate that.

To current and new users and to VSI, each new OpenVMS release is a
bigger deal than any previous OpenVMS release from the last forty years.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
Arne Vajhøj
2017-04-24 15:38:25 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
Does anyone have any plans for any VMS at 40 promotional material ?
I'd rather see VSI invest in presentations and efforts around the future
of OpenVMS, and rather less on commemorating the past.
Face forward. OpenVMS isn't in the best of places in the market, and
VSI is working diligently to try to remediate that.
To current and new users and to VSI, each new OpenVMS release is a
bigger deal than any previous OpenVMS release from the last forty years.
True.

But part of making OpenVMS a success is to get knowledge about
its existence out beyond the few current VMS customers.

An anniversary may be an opportunity get some press for
a very modest effort.

Arne
Stephen Hoffman
2017-04-24 16:18:15 UTC
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Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Simon Clubley
Does anyone have any plans for any VMS at 40 promotional material ?
I'd rather see VSI invest in presentations and efforts around the
future of OpenVMS, and rather less on commemorating the past.
Face forward. OpenVMS isn't in the best of places in the market, and
VSI is working diligently to try to remediate that.
To current and new users and to VSI, each new OpenVMS release is a
bigger deal than any previous OpenVMS release from the last forty years.
True.
But part of making OpenVMS a success is to get knowledge about its
existence out beyond the few current VMS customers.
The existence of OpenVMS hasn't mattered in a decade or two, outside of
the installed base. For folks outside the installed base, there's
little reason to port to OpenVMS. VSI is and will be working on that.

For even the folks in the installed base, what matters most is what VSI
is doing going forward. Making running OpenVMS easier and more
efficient. Making paying VSI easier to justify to local management.
An anniversary may be an opportunity get some press for a very modest effort.
The most important VSI OpenVMS software release ever is the one that's
just shipped, or — as its availability approaches — the OpenVMS release
that's about to ship. That release and its benefits and the
associated services and support are front-page of the whole VSI web
site. Unfortunately, I've now been asked by several folks "Is
V8.4-2L1 available for Alpha yet?"...

I'd suggest offering some 40th anniversary swag in the VSI online store, but...
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
Arne Vajhøj
2017-04-25 16:30:11 UTC
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Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Simon Clubley
Does anyone have any plans for any VMS at 40 promotional material ?
I'd rather see VSI invest in presentations and efforts around the
future of OpenVMS, and rather less on commemorating the past.
Face forward. OpenVMS isn't in the best of places in the market,
and VSI is working diligently to try to remediate that.
To current and new users and to VSI, each new OpenVMS release is a
bigger deal than any previous OpenVMS release from the last forty years.
True.
But part of making OpenVMS a success is to get knowledge about its
existence out beyond the few current VMS customers.
The existence of OpenVMS hasn't mattered in a decade or two, outside of
the installed base. For folks outside the installed base, there's
little reason to port to OpenVMS. VSI is and will be working on that.
For even the folks in the installed base, what matters most is what VSI
is doing going forward. Making running OpenVMS easier and more
efficient. Making paying VSI easier to justify to local management.
It is still good that OpenVMS get some general press.

If the CIO types read in the glossy magazines (hmmm - it is
2017 - glossy web sites !!) that OpenVMS is still alive a few
times per year, then it may just make it a tiny little bit
easier to get some OpenVMS investment approved.

Actual substance is still the most important, but some
positive branding can help.

Arne
Bob Koehler
2017-04-25 20:29:40 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Actual substance is still the most important, but some
positive branding can help.


Vaporware always worked for IBM.
Bill Gunshannon
2017-04-25 21:34:41 UTC
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Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Actual substance is still the most important, but some
positive branding can help.

Vaporware always worked for IBM.
Funny you should mention that after the many times I have told people
here about an employer of mine losing out on a bid to a machine DEC
admitted was not yet even in production and was several years after
the bid closed before they delivered it.

bill
Bob Koehler
2017-04-26 13:33:55 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
Funny you should mention that after the many times I have told people
here about an employer of mine losing out on a bid to a machine DEC
admitted was not yet even in production and was several years after
the bid closed before they delivered it.
IBM sold me two 3rd party software packages that didn't exist for an
AIX system we bought.

You must have run into a DEC salesman who formerly worked for IBM.
Bill Gunshannon
2017-04-26 14:17:21 UTC
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Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Funny you should mention that after the many times I have told people
here about an employer of mine losing out on a bid to a machine DEC
admitted was not yet even in production and was several years after
the bid closed before they delivered it.
IBM sold me two 3rd party software packages that didn't exist for an
AIX system we bought.
You must have run into a DEC salesman who formerly worked for IBM.
I told you, my employer competed on an RFP for a system at Williams
College. DEC bid a VAX and we bid a Prime. One requirement was to
provide benchmark results. Ours came in an entire box of fanfold
paper. DEC's came in an envelope. Their benchmark stated that the
machine being bid did not exist but if it did the results would be
what was stated in the letter. No lie. The actual box didn't exist
for two years after they won the bid. Sometimes people are happy
with vaporware. And no, I don't think the DEC salesdroids had any
prior IBM experience. :-)

bill
Arne Vajhøj
2017-04-25 23:55:50 UTC
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Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Actual substance is still the most important, but some
positive branding can help.
Vaporware always worked for IBM.
IBM is not the only one ...

Arne
Bill Gunshannon
2017-04-26 00:11:17 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Actual substance is still the most important, but some
positive branding can help.
Vaporware always worked for IBM.
IBM is not the only one ...
True. DEC was just as good at it in their day.

bill
d***@gmail.com
2017-04-24 17:59:50 UTC
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Post by Stephen Hoffman
I'd rather see VSI invest in presentations and efforts around the
future of OpenVMS, and rather less on commemorating the past.
... scratches Hoffman off the Invitation list for the Grand Ball.
Stephen Hoffman
2017-04-24 18:58:35 UTC
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Post by d***@gmail.com
Post by Stephen Hoffman
I'd rather see VSI invest in presentations and efforts around the
future of OpenVMS, and rather less on commemorating the past.
... scratches Hoffman off the Invitation list for the Grand Ball.
In my stead, kindly invite a diverse group of tech folks in their
twenties and thirties — folks working with and using and managing
Linux, BSD, Windows Server, ASOP, iOS and otherwise — to that Grand
Ball.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
Richard Maher
2017-04-25 03:22:22 UTC
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Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by d***@gmail.com
Post by Stephen Hoffman
I'd rather see VSI invest in presentations and efforts around the
future of OpenVMS, and rather less on commemorating the past.
... scratches Hoffman off the Invitation list for the Grand Ball.
In my stead, kindly invite a diverse group of tech folks in their
twenties and thirties — folks working with and using and managing Linux,
BSD, Windows Server, ASOP, iOS and otherwise — to that Grand Ball.
Have to agree with The Hoff here! Apart from a few T-shirts, save the
money for the "Ferrari System now at a Commodity/Ford price" or "VMS in
the cloud" promotions.
Post by Stephen Hoffman
a diverse group of tech folks in their
twenties and thirties
I'm sure you mean"diverse" in the plain English sense of the word but I
ran into a Google San Francisco Bay area bloke (yes I was banned again
:-) who explained that, despite my protestations, "diversity and
inclusivity" did not cover representation from my self-labelled group of
"wankers". Apparently ours is a choice and we can change while I&D is
only for people who who were born a certain way.

But the real killer was his objections to my tried and true
Irish/English/Aussie (American?) way of dissing a premise based on an
"IF" by pointing out that "If your Aunt had balls she'd be your uncle".
Young Hixie's prudishness caused him to blush at my mere mention of
"testicles" in a technical forum but I was at a complete loss when he
chastised me for referring to them in "such a trans-phobic way"!

I honestly had to re-read my post 1/2 doz. times trying to work out what
"trans-phobic" meant and then how I had transgressed and the only
conclusion I came to was that proffering only a gender binary solution
to the conundrum of your Aunt having balls was offensive. Disbelief!

It's clear this world was never meant for one as beautiful as me :-(
Dirk Munk
2017-04-24 21:13:46 UTC
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Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Simon Clubley
Does anyone have any plans for any VMS at 40 promotional material ?
I'd rather see VSI invest in presentations and efforts around the
future of OpenVMS, and rather less on commemorating the past.
Face forward. OpenVMS isn't in the best of places in the market,
and VSI is working diligently to try to remediate that.
To current and new users and to VSI, each new OpenVMS release is a
bigger deal than any previous OpenVMS release from the last forty years
Yes, but any kind of news that will put VMS in the footlight is good,
including a 40 year anniversary.
abrsvc
2017-04-24 21:20:22 UTC
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i would think that despite all efforts to kill OpenVMS, the fact that it still is being used and is now growing would be something to brag about. It is worth the fight which is why its longevity is worth noting.

Yes, things need to change and become more "modern". This will happen, but this should not happen by abandoning the existing client base nor by stopping the upwards compatibility that has been the backbone.

Dan
Stephen Hoffman
2017-04-24 21:58:23 UTC
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Post by abrsvc
i would think that despite all efforts to kill OpenVMS, the fact that
it still is being used and is now growing would be something to brag
about. It is worth the fight which is why its longevity is worth
noting.
Having something enough new folks want to buy is the central measure
for a commercial operating system.
Post by abrsvc
Yes, things need to change and become more "modern". This will happen,
but this should not happen by abandoning the existing client base nor
by stopping the upwards compatibility that has been the backbone.
Complete and absolute compatibility is just as good at killing the
future of an operating system platform, too.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
David Froble
2017-04-25 04:04:14 UTC
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Post by abrsvc
i would think that despite all efforts to kill OpenVMS, the fact that
it still is being used and is now growing would be something to brag
about. It is worth the fight which is why its longevity is worth noting.
I'd agree with that.
Having something enough new folks want to buy is the central measure for
a commercial operating system.
Is it? Perhaps not. Would not recurring revenues from commercial users be much
better?

Getting new users to increase the user base would also be a good thing.
Post by abrsvc
Yes, things need to change and become more "modern". This will
happen, but this should not happen by abandoning the existing client
base nor by stopping the upwards compatibility that has been the
backbone.
Complete and absolute compatibility is just as good at killing the
future of an operating system platform, too.
Well, that's a rather vague statement. What is "complete and absolute
compatibility"? Perhaps the term "meet the needs of current and future users"
might be a better statement.

Not that I think there is any near term possibility, but if the ancient Macro-32
was no longer useable, I for one would be totally, completely screwed.
Consider, a database product implemented 100% in Macro-32. Well, a small bit of
C code now, as you're aware. It would not be re-written, and if porting
applications to another database, the work might be more than it's worth. Nor
would there be the requirement for VMS anymore.

I'm not a fan of 100% compatibility. The question is what can (and should) be
done away with. Anyone could have a list, but some things on that list might be
critical to another user.

How about your favorite thing, logicals to affect the operation of C? I do
agree that from an architectural perspective that "stupid" doesn't begin to
describe it. Who is using the capability, and which parts of it? I doubt there
is anyone who knows all the uses of VMS.

Perhaps some day if / when VSI gets commercial users on support contracts, they
(VSI) could question those on support (since nobody else matters) about possible
deletion of some things. Today is not that day.
Jan-Erik Soderholm
2017-04-25 07:23:23 UTC
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Post by David Froble
Perhaps some day if / when VSI gets commercial users on support contracts,
they (VSI) could question those on support (since nobody else matters)
about possible deletion of some things. Today is not that day.
Are you saying that VSI has *no* support contract today? How do you know?
David Froble
2017-04-25 13:50:58 UTC
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Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by David Froble
Perhaps some day if / when VSI gets commercial users on support contracts,
they (VSI) could question those on support (since nobody else matters)
about possible deletion of some things. Today is not that day.
Are you saying that VSI has *no* support contract today? How do you know?
Nope, not what I'm saying ...

Right now, there are users on HPE support, users on VSI support, and such.
Recently there was a discussion about whether HP gave VSI a list of all VMS
customers, with the guess that they did not. So, it's quite possible that at
this time VSI does not have a complete list of VMS customers.

I envision a time in the future where HPE is totally out of the picture, and
only VSI is supporting VMS users. At such a time, VSI will have a complete list
of all customers on support, and developers, and such, and will be able to
contact every user.

In such a scenario, only the customers on that list will be a VSI concern, and
VSI can determine what they should do, and not do, in support of those users.
Kerry Main
2017-04-26 23:40:57 UTC
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-----Original Message-----
David Froble via Info-vax
Sent: April 25, 2017 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Info-vax] VMS at 40 promotional material ?
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by David Froble
Perhaps some day if / when VSI gets commercial users on support contracts,
they (VSI) could question those on support (since nobody else
matters)
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by David Froble
about possible deletion of some things. Today is not that day.
Are you saying that VSI has *no* support contract today? How do you
know?
Nope, not what I'm saying ...
Right now, there are users on HPE support, users on VSI support, and such.
Recently there was a discussion about whether HP gave VSI a list of all VMS
customers, with the guess that they did not. So, it's quite possible that at
this time VSI does not have a complete list of VMS customers.
I envision a time in the future where HPE is totally out of the picture, and
only VSI is supporting VMS users. At such a time, VSI will have a complete list
of all customers on support, and developers, and such, and will be able to
contact every user.
In such a scenario, only the customers on that list will be a VSI concern, and
VSI can determine what they should do, and not do, in support of those users.
Just to be clear, HP does not have a complete list of OpenVMS Customers.

The same can be stated for HP-UX, NonStop as well.

DEC/Compaq/HP/HPE went through at least 10 call /contract handling systems (Local, Regional, Corporate) over the last few decades. With each "upgrade" (depends if want functionality or pretty GUI's), if a Customer was not currently on contract, then more likely than not, the Customer record(s) were not migrated to the new system.

As Customers started getting pressure to reduce IT costs, the OpenVMS support costs were one of the first to get cut, because in many cases, due to its rock solid reliability, Cust's had a hard time justifying the albeit high SW maint costs.

In addition, partners wanted Customers to call them, not DEC/Compaq/HP, so many the Cust info associated with systems sold via partners were often not shared. Some sales were not shared for political/competitive reasons e.g. IBM buying OpenVMS systems.

I strongly suspect you would get the same issue if an internal group at IBM asked their Cust support group to get their complete AIX customer list.

This is the reality of large vendors like HP, IBM, Dell etc.

Bad news is that VSI will have to get creative with marketing to find and track down all those missing Customers.

Good news is that I know the real OpenVMS Customer numbers are much higher than what HP thinks it is. (personal experience while I was at HP)

😊


Regards,

Kerry Main
Kerry dot main at starkgaming dot com
David Froble
2017-04-27 04:00:26 UTC
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Post by Kerry Main
Bad news is that VSI will have to get creative with marketing to find and track down all those missing Customers.
Ya know, I don't think so.

VSI will be the sole source of VMS.

The only VMS users that VSI will care about are paying customers, and I'm sure
they will know who sent them money. Yes, developers will also be important, and
VSI will have a list of developers who ask for VMS software.

So, you might mention VMS users who for whatever reason aren't on VSI support.
Well, so what? They will not help VSI to survive.

Got to ask, if you were using VMS in an important commercial task, would you not
insure that you are aware of your options? Would you not find out about VSI,
and what they might be able to do for you? VSI is the publically known source
for things VMS.

Might there be those just running their VAX, or emulator, and see no need for
anything else? Most likely. But, from a practical standpoint, what good are
they to VSI? If there is no revenue, what else is there?
Stephen Hoffman
2017-04-25 22:45:18 UTC
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Post by David Froble
I'm not a fan of 100% compatibility. The question is what can (and
should) be done away with.
What can be afforded, and what can draw in enough new users to offset
those that port out, too.
Post by David Froble
Anyone could have a list, but some things on that list might be
critical to another user.
There needs to be a good reason for the changes, and an improvement.
Not churn. Some sites are not happy with change, and never will be.
Many will dislike change, until they adopt the changes.
Post by David Froble
How about your favorite thing, logicals to affect the operation of C?
The C logical name mechanisms are one of many similar problem areas.
Post by David Froble
I do agree that from an architectural perspective that "stupid" doesn't
begin to describe it.
Short of bespoke and application-specific storage code, there's no path
out of that approach for applications, though. No preferences-storage
analog to what RMS provided apps, most of forty years ago. No JSON
app-specific preferences and entitlements file, or otherwise.
Post by David Froble
Who is using the capability, and which parts of it? I doubt there is
anyone who knows all the uses of VMS.
Phrased differently, there's no instrumentation in the platform.

So... no. Nobody knows what is going on, what is crashing, what
attacks might be underway, what is being used, etc.
Post by David Froble
Perhaps some day if / when VSI gets commercial users on support
contracts, they (VSI) could question those on support (since nobody
else matters) about possible deletion of some things.
With rare exceptions, existing customers are never going to do that.
Customers are a decent source of competitive information (from a year
or two into the past, in terms of any schedule that a development team
can meet), but customers are seldom a source of gotta-have-it new
features and changes.
Post by David Froble
Today is not that day.
Ayup. Slow growth of the installed base.

A shark that doesn't move forward dies.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
Arne Vajhøj
2017-04-25 17:44:25 UTC
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Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by abrsvc
Yes, things need to change and become more "modern". This will
happen, but this should not happen by abandoning the existing client
base nor by stopping the upwards compatibility that has been the
backbone.
Complete and absolute compatibility is just as good at killing the
future of an operating system platform, too.
Linux and Windows seems to survive even though they do carry
significant amount of old stuff kept for compatibility.

Arne
j***@yahoo.co.uk
2017-04-25 19:02:47 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by abrsvc
Yes, things need to change and become more "modern". This will
happen, but this should not happen by abandoning the existing client
base nor by stopping the upwards compatibility that has been the
backbone.
Complete and absolute compatibility is just as good at killing the
future of an operating system platform, too.
Linux and Windows seems to survive even though they do carry
significant amount of old stuff kept for compatibility.
Arne
Actually wrt Windows some folk might have said the opposite.
I would probably be one of them.

Windows has done as well as it has not primarily because of
its technology and compatibility (Win3.1? W98SE? Nt3.1? W2K?
XP? Vista???? Win7? Win8? Win10? compatibility?). A large
part of the success has been down to MS's ability to make
deals and build an ecosystem of Wintel-dependent system
builders and "business partners". Plus big wallets.


[Desktop-centric] Windows survives despite a different
strategic direction every few years. The other flavours are
less lucky.

Windows Embedded? Deaded.

Windows Mobile? Futile.

Windows MediaRoom? Went kaboom (MS's attempt at an end to
end high value content delivery strategy).

Windows Automotive? Not going very far.

[Bored yet?]

Windows licencing? It'll make VMS points-based licencing
seem like a piece of cake by comparison. Processors, cores,
client licences, customer discounts, shoe size, etc - all
seem to be involved.


And in the background, MS's vision in the last few years has
been centred around "the cloud", MS's cloud, with a
decreasing role for on-site Wintel hardware, and a decreasing
role for certified Microsoft Business Partners (as exemplified
by MS's withdrawal of the long-standing Technet product):
https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/subscriptions/dn261809.aspx


Linux? It's quietly been doing fine, everywhere from set top
boxes to servers and lots of places in between (except Wintel
desktops).

The recentish arrival of Linux's alleged equivalent of VMS's
SYSMAN STARTUP (systemd) seems to have highlighted a number of
technical and other issues in parts of the Linux community.

I hadn't been following systemd in detail but was
surprised to see this not very long systemd bug report,
and the not very long (and not very helpful) responses
from the RedHat employee who is the systemd developer:
https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/5644
There's plenty more where that came from, but apparently
that's a nice short reproducer of a bigger problem.

However disappointing the OpenVMS SYSMAN STARTUP episode may
have been (when was that?), this systemd story is going to be
more interesting. And at least SYSMAN STARTUP largely did
one thing and stuck to it, even if ultimately it didn't
quickly catch on in the way that might have been hoped.

Meanwhile, VMS is still here, under new management, and
receiving some overdue TLC, hopefully not just in the
engineering sense.

Have a lot of fun.
Arne Vajhøj
2017-04-26 17:18:47 UTC
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Post by j***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by abrsvc
Yes, things need to change and become more "modern". This will
happen, but this should not happen by abandoning the existing client
base nor by stopping the upwards compatibility that has been the
backbone.
Complete and absolute compatibility is just as good at killing the
future of an operating system platform, too.
Linux and Windows seems to survive even though they do carry
significant amount of old stuff kept for compatibility.
Actually wrt Windows some folk might have said the opposite.
I would probably be one of them.
Windows has done as well as it has not primarily because of
its technology and compatibility (Win3.1? W98SE? Nt3.1? W2K?
XP? Vista???? Win7? Win8? Win10? compatibility?).
Occasionally things break either because of MS having created
a bug or because the application used an an internal interface.

But what Win32 calls, CMD commands etc. has deliberately been
removed from WinNT 3.1 to Win10?

Arne
Bob Koehler
2017-04-25 20:32:02 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Linux and Windows seems to survive even though they do carry
significant amount of old stuff kept for compatibility.
Windows? Seems to break compatability ecery little security patch.

I know a customer with got plenty of out-of-support Windows systems
because the required COTS app is not available for, and will not run
on, later.

Gives the security folks something to do.
Arne Vajhøj
2017-04-26 17:20:31 UTC
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Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Linux and Windows seems to survive even though they do carry
significant amount of old stuff kept for compatibility.
Windows? Seems to break compatability ecery little security patch.
Question again: what Win32 API's and CMD commands has been removed?

Arne
Bob Koehler
2017-04-26 20:00:30 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Linux and Windows seems to survive even though they do carry
significant amount of old stuff kept for compatibility.
Windows? Seems to break compatability ecery little security patch.
Question again: what Win32 API's and CMD commands has been removed?
I didn't say they were removed. I, myself don't program their, so I
wouldn't know.

They were broken.
David Froble
2017-04-27 04:02:38 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Linux and Windows seems to survive even though they do carry
significant amount of old stuff kept for compatibility.
Windows? Seems to break compatability ecery little security patch.
Question again: what Win32 API's and CMD commands has been removed?
Arne
It may not be anything in the OS. It might be the lack of drivers and such for
newer HW. I've run into this, trying to run XP on newer HW.
m***@gmail.com
2017-04-25 02:19:01 UTC
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Post by abrsvc
i would think that despite all efforts to kill OpenVMS, the fact that it still is being used and is now growing would be something to brag about. It is worth the fight which is why its longevity is worth noting.
Yes, things need to change and become more "modern". This will happen, but this should not happen by abandoning the existing client base nor by stopping the upwards compatibility that has been the backbone.
Dan
There should be room for both looking back and looking forward in VSI's advertising of VMS.

Showing the track record of VMS, especially in clustering technology and cluster recovery after an outage, would provide credibility for forward looking statements.

John
Stephen Hoffman
2017-04-24 22:27:01 UTC
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Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Simon Clubley
Does anyone have any plans for any VMS at 40 promotional material ?
I'd rather see VSI invest in presentations and efforts around the
future of OpenVMS, and rather less on commemorating the past.
Face forward. OpenVMS isn't in the best of places in the market, and
VSI is working diligently to try to remediate that.
To current and new users and to VSI, each new OpenVMS release is a
bigger deal than any previous OpenVMS release from the last forty years
Yes, but any kind of news that will put VMS in the footlight is good,
including a 40 year anniversary.
This whole discussion will hopefully be moot, and just as soon as VSI
ships the x86-64 port. That's forward-looking. That matters.
That'll generate interest.

I'd rather see time and budget go toward getting the current and
upcoming products more visible and more viable and more available.
Once that's somewhere between well underway and done — better and more
frequent announcements, web email and customer contact and the rest —
then spend on nostalgia... When there's time and budget for
nostalgia, that can't be better spent on tasks such as direct
revenue-producing new product marketing, or cutting overhead and cost
of sales, or such. And that plan for nostalgia better have the
requisite collateral materials and the rest of a plan for generating
(more) revenue, too.

Whether even reminding an increasing majority of current and upcoming
users of OpenVMS that the operating system that they're using is older
than they are? Is that even a positive?

I'd really rather not have to port various of the OpenVMS software I'm
dealing with. I'd really rather not see VSI follow Mentec.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
Simon Clubley
2017-04-24 23:51:13 UTC
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Post by Stephen Hoffman
Whether even reminding an increasing majority of current and upcoming
users of OpenVMS that the operating system that they're using is older
than they are? Is that even a positive?
It doesn't seem to affect z/OS.

In fact, I wonder if there's any mileage in promoting VMS as doing
some of the kind of things that z/OS can do but for a cheaper price ?

I'm not thinking of replacing z/OS installations with VMS but using
a network infrastructure built around a z/OS system/Sysplex as a way
of explaining to any potential new VMS customers why VMS is different
to other more common systems.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
Kerry Main
2017-04-25 00:42:45 UTC
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-----Original Message-----
Simon Clubley via Info-vax
Sent: April 24, 2017 7:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Info-vax] VMS at 40 promotional material ?
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Whether even reminding an increasing majority of current and
upcoming
Post by Stephen Hoffman
users of OpenVMS that the operating system that they're using is older
than they are? Is that even a positive?
It doesn't seem to affect z/OS.
In fact, I wonder if there's any mileage in promoting VMS as doing
some of the kind of things that z/OS can do but for a cheaper price ?
I'm not thinking of replacing z/OS installations with VMS but using
a network infrastructure built around a z/OS system/Sysplex as a way
of explaining to any potential new VMS customers why VMS is different
to other more common systems.
Simon.
It used to be stated:

1. the two best cluster technologies in the world have the same 3 letters.

VMS + MVS (predecessor name for z/OS)

2. Digital OpenVMS integrated mainframe technologies (SNA GW's etc) far
better than IBM mainframes.

In my experience, most mainframe types and their Mgmt have a culture of
looking down and not taking seriously "mid-range systems" like UNIX/Windows
(includes AIX). However, they do have a healthy respect for OpenVMS.

Similar culture, similar cluster technologies (shared disk), big batch, big Cobol, mission critical transaction processing etc.


Regards,

Kerry Main
Kerry dot main at starkgaming dot com
Bob Koehler
2017-04-25 13:09:30 UTC
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Post by Stephen Hoffman
Whether even reminding an increasing majority of current and upcoming
users of OpenVMS that the operating system that they're using is older
than they are? Is that even a positive?
None of the UNIX users that I know are really bothered by it being
almost 50. They still talk in oxymorons of "a modern UNIX".
Bill Gunshannon
2017-04-25 13:40:22 UTC
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Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Whether even reminding an increasing majority of current and upcoming
users of OpenVMS that the operating system that they're using is older
than they are? Is that even a positive?
None of the UNIX users that I know are really bothered by it being
almost 50. They still talk in oxymorons of "a modern UNIX".
Why do people here assume all Unix development stopped 50 years ago?

bill
Bob Koehler
2017-04-25 20:27:03 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Whether even reminding an increasing majority of current and upcoming
users of OpenVMS that the operating system that they're using is older
than they are? Is that even a positive?
None of the UNIX users that I know are really bothered by it being
almost 50. They still talk in oxymorons of "a modern UNIX".
Why do people here assume all Unix development stopped 50 years ago?
While there has been development, the basic design still dates to the
late 1960s.
David Froble
2017-04-25 13:56:55 UTC
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Post by Stephen Hoffman
Whether even reminding an increasing majority of current and upcoming
users of OpenVMS that the operating system that they're using is older
than they are? Is that even a positive?
Yes, very positive. It is an indicator that if an application is developed on
VMS that the environment will still be available 5, 10, 20 years, and so in the
future. Who would want to develop an application which in a throw away in a few
years?

Would anyone purchase a car for which they could not get repair parts in a
couple of years?
Bill Gunshannon
2017-04-25 14:39:07 UTC
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Post by David Froble
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Whether even reminding an increasing majority of current and upcoming
users of OpenVMS that the operating system that they're using is older
than they are? Is that even a positive?
Yes, very positive. It is an indicator that if an application is
developed on VMS that the environment will still be available 5, 10, 20
years, and so in the future. Who would want to develop an application
which in a throw away in a few years?
Would anyone purchase a car for which they could not get repair parts in
a couple of years?
And what were the comments here about the likelihood (or lack thereof)
of DECUS UUCP being buildable on current VMS?

bill
Bob Koehler
2017-04-25 20:28:27 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
And what were the comments here about the likelihood (or lack thereof)
of DECUS UUCP being buildable on current VMS?
Probably builds, but may not find a serial interface to run on.
Bill Gunshannon
2017-04-25 21:36:33 UTC
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Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Bill Gunshannon
And what were the comments here about the likelihood (or lack thereof)
of DECUS UUCP being buildable on current VMS?
Probably builds, but may not find a serial interface to run on.
That's not what people here said. They thought it unlikely
to even compile.

bill
Bob Koehler
2017-04-26 13:34:39 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Bill Gunshannon
And what were the comments here about the likelihood (or lack thereof)
of DECUS UUCP being buildable on current VMS?
Probably builds, but may not find a serial interface to run on.
That's not what people here said. They thought it unlikely
to even compile.
And I disagreed.
Stephen Hoffman
2017-04-25 23:03:19 UTC
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Post by David Froble
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Whether even reminding an increasing majority of current and upcoming
users of OpenVMS that the operating system that they're using is older
than they are? Is that even a positive?
Yes, very positive. It is an indicator that if an application is
developed on VMS that the environment will still be available 5, 10, 20
years, and so in the future. Who would want to develop an application
which in a throw away in a few years?
Would anyone purchase a car for which they could not get repair parts
in a couple of years?
I'm hearing a version of that question from various of my customers.
About VSI. Not about OpenVMS.

I'd rather see VSI addressing other areas of their business and
marketing and of the operating system, before tossing particular time
and effort into an anniversary knees up.

But yes, such might get some interest from some folks. Drawing folks
in to look at OpenVMS, but — and in all seriousness — what's there to
look at in present-day OpenVMS, though? Where's the follow-through?
Where's the proverbial call-to-action or port-now or buy link,
documentation and related materials? Why should anybody port to a 40
year old operating system that is — in many places, such as operator
communications — still most of forty years old?

There's a whole lot more thought and effort that goes into (good,
successful, affordable) marketing than might be obvious. But there
are any number of advertisers that'll be happy take your money, of
course.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
Arne Vajhøj
2017-04-26 17:15:11 UTC
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Post by Stephen Hoffman
I'd rather see VSI addressing other areas of their business and
marketing and of the operating system, before tossing particular time
and effort into an anniversary knees up.
But yes, such might get some interest from some folks. Drawing folks
in to look at OpenVMS, but — and in all seriousness — what's there to
look at in present-day OpenVMS, though?
I would not even expect the audience for this sort of marketing
to look deep into VMS.

They will just hear the name and when VMS is brougth up later they
will recall that they have heard about VMS.

Name branding.

Arne
Simon Clubley
2017-04-26 23:38:20 UTC
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Post by Stephen Hoffman
Why should anybody port to a 40
year old operating system that is ? in many places, such as operator
communications ? still most of forty years old?
Try selling it to the hipsters. :-)

If they can be brainwashed into thinking that buying and playing vinyl
records is "cool" (there's a whole rack of them at one of the local
supermarkets :-)), then they can be brainwashed into thinking that
buying and using VMS is cool...

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
Kerry Main
2017-04-26 23:56:00 UTC
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-----Original Message-----
Stephen Hoffman via Info-vax
Sent: April 25, 2017 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Info-vax] VMS at 40 promotional material ?
Post by David Froble
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Whether even reminding an increasing majority of current and
upcoming
Post by David Froble
Post by Stephen Hoffman
users of OpenVMS that the operating system that they're using is
older
Post by David Froble
Post by Stephen Hoffman
than they are? Is that even a positive?
Yes, very positive. It is an indicator that if an application is
developed on VMS that the environment will still be available 5, 10, 20
years, and so in the future. Who would want to develop an application
which in a throw away in a few years?
Would anyone purchase a car for which they could not get repair parts
in a couple of years?
I'm hearing a version of that question from various of my customers.
About VSI. Not about OpenVMS.
[snip..]

Given the rapid downsizing HPE has undergone in the last 18 months (which is what happens when preparing for a takeover/merger sale), it is possible that VSI will outlive HPE.

What that will mean to HPE Customers will depend on the amount of overlap between HPE products and the company buying (oops, merging) with HPE.

Should this event occur, it could be a tremendous opportunity for VSI.


Regards,

Kerry Main
Kerry dot main at starkgaming dot com
Bob Koehler
2017-04-27 13:05:29 UTC
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Given the rapid downsizing HPE has undergone in the last 18 months =
(which is what happens when preparing for a takeover/merger sale), it is =
possible that VSI will outlive HPE.
How much of HPE was left after part was sold to CSC (now DXC)?
Arne Vajhøj
2017-04-27 20:22:30 UTC
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Post by Kerry Main
Given the rapid downsizing HPE has undergone in the last 18 months
(which is what happens when preparing for a takeover/merger sale), it
is possible that VSI will outlive HPE.
What that will mean to HPE Customers will depend on the amount of
overlap between HPE products and the company buying (oops, merging)
with HPE.
It may have a huge impact on HP-UX, Linux and Windows customers.

But I doubt it will mean much for VMS customers.

HPE do not want VMS. Most likely a buyer will not want VMS either.

Eventually all of VMS business will go to VSI.
Post by Kerry Main
Should this event occur, it could be a tremendous opportunity for VSI.
I think a HPE acquisition will just change the timeline a little bit.

Arne
David Froble
2017-04-27 04:05:47 UTC
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Post by Stephen Hoffman
I'm hearing a version of that question from various of my customers.
About VSI. Not about OpenVMS.
Tell them what I tell my people.

If you support VSI, they may be there when you need them.

If you don't support them, don't go looking for them when you need them.

There are no guarantees ....
Bill Gunshannon
2017-04-27 13:04:59 UTC
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Post by David Froble
Post by Stephen Hoffman
I'm hearing a version of that question from various of my customers.
About VSI. Not about OpenVMS.
Tell them what I tell my people.
If you support VSI, they may be there when you need them.
If you don't support them, don't go looking for them when you need them.
There are no guarantees ....
That sounds like a good way to drive customers away.

bill
David Froble
2017-04-27 20:28:29 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Stephen Hoffman
I'm hearing a version of that question from various of my customers.
About VSI. Not about OpenVMS.
Tell them what I tell my people.
If you support VSI, they may be there when you need them.
If you don't support them, don't go looking for them when you need them.
There are no guarantees ....
That sounds like a good way to drive customers away.
bill
Uh, you want to explain that?

Or, in this damn politically correct world has stating reality gone that far out
of practice?
Bill Gunshannon
2017-04-28 00:27:28 UTC
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Post by David Froble
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Stephen Hoffman
I'm hearing a version of that question from various of my customers.
About VSI. Not about OpenVMS.
Tell them what I tell my people.
If you support VSI, they may be there when you need them.
If you don't support them, don't go looking for them when you need them.
There are no guarantees ....
That sounds like a good way to drive customers away.
bill
Uh, you want to explain that?
Or, in this damn politically correct world has stating reality gone that
far out of practice?
It's really quite simple. You are saying the customer is responsible
for the continued existence of the vendor. Most customers would see
it the other way around and not expect to face blame when the company
fails.

bill
David Froble
2017-04-28 04:08:52 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Stephen Hoffman
I'm hearing a version of that question from various of my customers.
About VSI. Not about OpenVMS.
Tell them what I tell my people.
If you support VSI, they may be there when you need them.
If you don't support them, don't go looking for them when you need them.
There are no guarantees ....
That sounds like a good way to drive customers away.
bill
Uh, you want to explain that?
Or, in this damn politically correct world has stating reality gone that
far out of practice?
It's really quite simple. You are saying the customer is responsible
for the continued existence of the vendor. Most customers would see
it the other way around and not expect to face blame when the company
fails.
bill
Ok then, I was right, just a damn self centered concept, with no basis in reality.

Tell me, how long will GM last without people purchasing GM vehicles?

Tell me, how long will United Airlines last if they keep dragging people off
aircraft?

I could list examples for quite a while, but I think the concept is clear.
Vendors don't last without customers. If anyone doesn't like that reality, too
bad, they are fooling only themselves.

In the case of VSI and VMS, you have a rather small environment, and I've stated
in the past that it's a partnership. Both VSI and VMS users will be affected
and therefore it's up to both, not just VSI, to have any chance of success.
Bill Gunshannon
2017-04-28 11:19:26 UTC
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Post by David Froble
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Stephen Hoffman
I'm hearing a version of that question from various of my customers.
About VSI. Not about OpenVMS.
Tell them what I tell my people.
If you support VSI, they may be there when you need them.
If you don't support them, don't go looking for them when you need them.
There are no guarantees ....
That sounds like a good way to drive customers away.
bill
Uh, you want to explain that?
Or, in this damn politically correct world has stating reality gone that
far out of practice?
It's really quite simple. You are saying the customer is responsible
for the continued existence of the vendor. Most customers would see
it the other way around and not expect to face blame when the company
fails.
bill
Ok then, I was right, just a damn self centered concept, with no basis in reality.
Self centered goes both ways.
Post by David Froble
Tell me, how long will GM last without people purchasing GM vehicles?
I drive GM vehicles. I have never had them tell me it was my
responsibility to keep them in business.
Post by David Froble
Tell me, how long will United Airlines last if they keep dragging people
off aircraft?
Totally different problem. Actually, points in the other direction.

Both of your examples point out why companies should be courting
customers and not telling them "Kiss my ass or I'll ruin you."
Post by David Froble
I could list examples for quite a while, but I think the concept is
clear. Vendors don't last without customers. If anyone doesn't like
that reality, too bad, they are fooling only themselves.
Quite true and that's why the vendor should be bending over backwards
to make that customer happy and not trying to insult them.
Post by David Froble
In the case of VSI and VMS, you have a rather small environment, and
I've stated in the past that it's a partnership. Both VSI and VMS users
will be affected and therefore it's up to both, not just VSI, to have
any chance of success.
No, actually you don't. You can always use Windows or Linux. And
that puts the onus even more on VSI to win customers, not the other
way around.

You have a rather strange concept of doing business.

bill
Bob Koehler
2017-04-28 13:27:17 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
No, actually you don't. You can always use Windows or Linux. And
that puts the onus even more on VSI to win customers, not the other
way around.
No, I can't. Windows and Linux can't handle the software that I do.
Bob Koehler
2017-04-28 13:24:56 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
It's really quite simple. You are saying the customer is responsible
for the continued existence of the vendor. Most customers would see
it the other way around and not expect to face blame when the company
fails.
If the vendor is responsible for the continued existence of the
customer, I think I will not contract to that customer.
Paul Sture
2017-04-25 23:03:13 UTC
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Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Simon Clubley
Does anyone have any plans for any VMS at 40 promotional material ?
I'd rather see VSI invest in presentations and efforts around the
future of OpenVMS, and rather less on commemorating the past.
Face forward. OpenVMS isn't in the best of places in the market, and
VSI is working diligently to try to remediate that.
To current and new users and to VSI, each new OpenVMS release is a
bigger deal than any previous OpenVMS release from the last forty years
Yes, but any kind of news that will put VMS in the footlight is good,
including a 40 year anniversary.
This whole discussion will hopefully be moot, and just as soon as VSI
ships the x86-64 port. That's forward-looking. That matters.
That'll generate interest.
If you look at major release announcements for other operating systems
in the x86-64 world, the norm nowadays is to provide a download site so
that folks can try it out.

In preparation for that, I would suggest:

1) some kind of pre-installed demo license which doesn't require the
current hoops involved with the Hobbyist setup

2a) the provision of a disk image which can be run inside VirtualBox
or VMware or other VM host - those products are common enough
today that few people have a separate box they can dedicate to
this kind of task

2b) the provision of VirtualBox and/or VMware images (vagrant?) for
those who prefer that to installing from scratch

3) depending on 1), automating the Hobbyist programme to cope with
large numbers of registrations. It's simply too many steps
for the casual downloader to be bothered with, let alone
the manual work involved on the HP side responding to requests
for a download URL

4) introduction material to demonstrate the main features and
strengths of the OS

On that last item, I have downloaded and installed quite a few operating
systems over the years and without pointers to their features have been
somewhat underwhelmed, in a "Fine, got it installed, now what do I do
with it?" kind of way.
--
Everybody has a testing environment. Some people are lucky enough to
have a totally separate environment to run production in.
Stephen Hoffman
2017-04-25 23:14:16 UTC
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Post by Paul Sture
If you look at major release announcements for other operating systems
in the x86-64 world, the norm nowadays is to provide a download site so
that folks can try it out.
...
In this area, doing marketing for a major new software release isn't
that far off of the sorts of considerations and preparation that go
into a large formal wedding.

There's a whole lot of work on the product announcement, the
collateral, access, coverage and reviews and interviews, and suchlike.
Having all that available on announcement day, too.

In making the announcement path smooth, professional, easy and
efficient; in managing and scripting the announcements and tossing the
new bits over the wall, to the whole goal; of collecting the payments.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
David Froble
2017-04-26 03:03:54 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Paul Sture
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Simon Clubley
Does anyone have any plans for any VMS at 40 promotional material ?
I'd rather see VSI invest in presentations and efforts around the
future of OpenVMS, and rather less on commemorating the past.
Face forward. OpenVMS isn't in the best of places in the market, and
VSI is working diligently to try to remediate that.
To current and new users and to VSI, each new OpenVMS release is a
bigger deal than any previous OpenVMS release from the last forty years
Yes, but any kind of news that will put VMS in the footlight is good,
including a 40 year anniversary.
This whole discussion will hopefully be moot, and just as soon as VSI
ships the x86-64 port. That's forward-looking. That matters.
That'll generate interest.
If you look at major release announcements for other operating systems
in the x86-64 world, the norm nowadays is to provide a download site so
that folks can try it out.
1) some kind of pre-installed demo license which doesn't require the
current hoops involved with the Hobbyist setup
2a) the provision of a disk image which can be run inside VirtualBox
or VMware or other VM host - those products are common enough
today that few people have a separate box they can dedicate to
this kind of task
2b) the provision of VirtualBox and/or VMware images (vagrant?) for
those who prefer that to installing from scratch
3) depending on 1), automating the Hobbyist programme to cope with
large numbers of registrations. It's simply too many steps
for the casual downloader to be bothered with, let alone
the manual work involved on the HP side responding to requests
for a download URL
4) introduction material to demonstrate the main features and
strengths of the OS
On that last item, I have downloaded and installed quite a few operating
systems over the years and without pointers to their features have been
somewhat underwhelmed, in a "Fine, got it installed, now what do I do
with it?" kind of way.
I don't know that it will happen. Perhaps too much inertia. But, the LMF is
one part of VMS that I'd be happy to see go. Here's my thinking.

Any serious commercial user is going to insist on support.

Non-commercial use should be free and unlimited.

Hobbyists and developers are an asset to VSI, should be recognized as such, and
encouraged in all manners.

So, how about the cheap ass commercial users who won't purchase the required
support contract? Well, for one thing, no matter what, you're not going to get
any revenue out of them. Nothing to lose there. But consider, they will have
IT staff, and that staff will need to be familiar with VMS, and isn't that a
plus, even if there is no revenue? And who knows, in the future some people
with some morals might say "hey, we're operating illegally, we should get legal,
and there is the support revenue. Regardless, if they are cheap, their IT staff
will be underpaid, and when those VMS knowledgeable people go looking elsewhere
for a job, well, that's good for VSI and VMS.

Not really a downside to doing away with the LMF ....
Bill Gunshannon
2017-04-26 11:39:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Simon Clubley
Does anyone have any plans for any VMS at 40 promotional material ?
I'd rather see VSI invest in presentations and efforts around the
future of OpenVMS, and rather less on commemorating the past.
Face forward. OpenVMS isn't in the best of places in the market,
and VSI is working diligently to try to remediate that.
To current and new users and to VSI, each new OpenVMS release is a
bigger deal than any previous OpenVMS release from the last forty years
Yes, but any kind of news that will put VMS in the footlight is
good, including a 40 year anniversary.
This whole discussion will hopefully be moot, and just as soon as VSI
ships the x86-64 port. That's forward-looking. That matters.
That'll generate interest.
If you look at major release announcements for other operating systems
in the x86-64 world, the norm nowadays is to provide a download site so
that folks can try it out.
1) some kind of pre-installed demo license which doesn't require the
current hoops involved with the Hobbyist setup
2a) the provision of a disk image which can be run inside VirtualBox
or VMware or other VM host - those products are common enough
today that few people have a separate box they can dedicate to
this kind of task
2b) the provision of VirtualBox and/or VMware images (vagrant?) for
those who prefer that to installing from scratch
3) depending on 1), automating the Hobbyist programme to cope with
large numbers of registrations. It's simply too many steps
for the casual downloader to be bothered with, let alone
the manual work involved on the HP side responding to requests
for a download URL
4) introduction material to demonstrate the main features and
strengths of the OS
On that last item, I have downloaded and installed quite a few operating
systems over the years and without pointers to their features have been
somewhat underwhelmed, in a "Fine, got it installed, now what do I do
with it?" kind of way.
I don't know that it will happen. Perhaps too much inertia. But, the
LMF is one part of VMS that I'd be happy to see go. Here's my thinking.
Any serious commercial user is going to insist on support.
Non-commercial use should be free and unlimited.
Hobbyists and developers are an asset to VSI, should be recognized as
such, and encouraged in all manners.
So, how about the cheap ass commercial users who won't purchase the
required support contract? Well, for one thing, no matter what, you're
not going to get any revenue out of them. Nothing to lose there. But
consider, they will have IT staff, and that staff will need to be
familiar with VMS, and isn't that a plus, even if there is no revenue?
And who knows, in the future some people with some morals might say
"hey, we're operating illegally, we should get legal, and there is the
support revenue. Regardless, if they are cheap, their IT staff will be
underpaid, and when those VMS knowledgeable people go looking elsewhere
for a job, well, that's good for VSI and VMS.
Not really a downside to doing away with the LMF ....
Two tings.....

When was the last time you saw Microsoft give a functional copy of
any of their OSes away?

How about jumping on the certification bandwagon? Start offering
VMS Certifications. Anybody with a brain knows that certifications
are actually of limited if any value but they are what the industry
wants to see. And we all know three letter "C" people don't have a
brain anyway.

CVSA - Certified VMS System Administrator
CVPD - Certified VMS Program Developer
CVCM - Certified VMS Cluster Manager
CVDRP - Certified VMS Disaster Preparedness Professional

The list is endless. Charge money for them and offer "bootcamps".
Another revenue stream and it will get VMS out in the public eye.

bill
David Froble
2017-04-26 13:59:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Simon Clubley
Does anyone have any plans for any VMS at 40 promotional material ?
I'd rather see VSI invest in presentations and efforts around the
future of OpenVMS, and rather less on commemorating the past.
Face forward. OpenVMS isn't in the best of places in the market,
and VSI is working diligently to try to remediate that.
To current and new users and to VSI, each new OpenVMS release is a
bigger deal than any previous OpenVMS release from the last forty years
Yes, but any kind of news that will put VMS in the footlight is
good, including a 40 year anniversary.
This whole discussion will hopefully be moot, and just as soon as VSI
ships the x86-64 port. That's forward-looking. That matters.
That'll generate interest.
If you look at major release announcements for other operating systems
in the x86-64 world, the norm nowadays is to provide a download site so
that folks can try it out.
1) some kind of pre-installed demo license which doesn't require the
current hoops involved with the Hobbyist setup
2a) the provision of a disk image which can be run inside VirtualBox
or VMware or other VM host - those products are common enough
today that few people have a separate box they can dedicate to
this kind of task
2b) the provision of VirtualBox and/or VMware images (vagrant?) for
those who prefer that to installing from scratch
3) depending on 1), automating the Hobbyist programme to cope with
large numbers of registrations. It's simply too many steps
for the casual downloader to be bothered with, let alone
the manual work involved on the HP side responding to requests
for a download URL
4) introduction material to demonstrate the main features and
strengths of the OS
On that last item, I have downloaded and installed quite a few operating
systems over the years and without pointers to their features have been
somewhat underwhelmed, in a "Fine, got it installed, now what do I do
with it?" kind of way.
I don't know that it will happen. Perhaps too much inertia. But, the
LMF is one part of VMS that I'd be happy to see go. Here's my thinking.
Any serious commercial user is going to insist on support.
Non-commercial use should be free and unlimited.
Hobbyists and developers are an asset to VSI, should be recognized as
such, and encouraged in all manners.
So, how about the cheap ass commercial users who won't purchase the
required support contract? Well, for one thing, no matter what, you're
not going to get any revenue out of them. Nothing to lose there. But
consider, they will have IT staff, and that staff will need to be
familiar with VMS, and isn't that a plus, even if there is no revenue?
And who knows, in the future some people with some morals might say
"hey, we're operating illegally, we should get legal, and there is the
support revenue. Regardless, if they are cheap, their IT staff will be
underpaid, and when those VMS knowledgeable people go looking elsewhere
for a job, well, that's good for VSI and VMS.
Not really a downside to doing away with the LMF ....
Two tings.....
When was the last time you saw Microsoft give a functional copy of
any of their OSes away?
How much you been paying for the various *ix you may have been using?
Post by Bill Gunshannon
How about jumping on the certification bandwagon? Start offering
VMS Certifications. Anybody with a brain knows that certifications
are actually of limited if any value but they are what the industry
wants to see. And we all know three letter "C" people don't have a
brain anyway.
CVSA - Certified VMS System Administrator
CVPD - Certified VMS Program Developer
CVCM - Certified VMS Cluster Manager
CVDRP - Certified VMS Disaster Preparedness Professional
The list is endless. Charge money for them and offer "bootcamps".
Another revenue stream and it will get VMS out in the public eye.
I'm going to guess such may be beyond VSI's resources, at this point in time.
Doesn't make it a bad idea. There does happen to be a few organizations who are
already providing the training, perhaps VSI making them "official" might be a
good idea. Perhaps VSI approved training ...

Not that the idea appeals to me, not since the Microsoft Certified Idiot who
told me I can't be much of a programmer since I didn't use PHP ....
Bill Gunshannon
2017-04-26 14:22:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Froble
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Simon Clubley
Does anyone have any plans for any VMS at 40 promotional material ?
I'd rather see VSI invest in presentations and efforts around the
future of OpenVMS, and rather less on commemorating the past.
Face forward. OpenVMS isn't in the best of places in the market,
and VSI is working diligently to try to remediate that.
To current and new users and to VSI, each new OpenVMS release is a
bigger deal than any previous OpenVMS release from the last forty years
Yes, but any kind of news that will put VMS in the footlight is
good, including a 40 year anniversary.
This whole discussion will hopefully be moot, and just as soon as VSI
ships the x86-64 port. That's forward-looking. That matters.
That'll generate interest.
If you look at major release announcements for other operating systems
in the x86-64 world, the norm nowadays is to provide a download site so
that folks can try it out.
1) some kind of pre-installed demo license which doesn't require the
current hoops involved with the Hobbyist setup
2a) the provision of a disk image which can be run inside VirtualBox
or VMware or other VM host - those products are common enough
today that few people have a separate box they can dedicate to
this kind of task
2b) the provision of VirtualBox and/or VMware images (vagrant?) for
those who prefer that to installing from scratch
3) depending on 1), automating the Hobbyist programme to cope with
large numbers of registrations. It's simply too many steps
for the casual downloader to be bothered with, let alone
the manual work involved on the HP side responding to requests
for a download URL
4) introduction material to demonstrate the main features and
strengths of the OS
On that last item, I have downloaded and installed quite a few operating
systems over the years and without pointers to their features have been
somewhat underwhelmed, in a "Fine, got it installed, now what do I do
with it?" kind of way.
I don't know that it will happen. Perhaps too much inertia. But, the
LMF is one part of VMS that I'd be happy to see go. Here's my thinking.
Any serious commercial user is going to insist on support.
Non-commercial use should be free and unlimited.
Hobbyists and developers are an asset to VSI, should be recognized as
such, and encouraged in all manners.
So, how about the cheap ass commercial users who won't purchase the
required support contract? Well, for one thing, no matter what, you're
not going to get any revenue out of them. Nothing to lose there. But
consider, they will have IT staff, and that staff will need to be
familiar with VMS, and isn't that a plus, even if there is no revenue?
And who knows, in the future some people with some morals might say
"hey, we're operating illegally, we should get legal, and there is the
support revenue. Regardless, if they are cheap, their IT staff will be
underpaid, and when those VMS knowledgeable people go looking elsewhere
for a job, well, that's good for VSI and VMS.
Not really a downside to doing away with the LMF ....
Two tings.....
When was the last time you saw Microsoft give a functional copy of
any of their OSes away?
How much you been paying for the various *ix you may have been using?
What's that got to do with whether or not MS gives their OSes away? MS
is the company to beat in today's market.
Post by David Froble
Post by Bill Gunshannon
How about jumping on the certification bandwagon? Start offering
VMS Certifications. Anybody with a brain knows that certifications
are actually of limited if any value but they are what the industry
wants to see. And we all know three letter "C" people don't have a
brain anyway.
CVSA - Certified VMS System Administrator
CVPD - Certified VMS Program Developer
CVCM - Certified VMS Cluster Manager
CVDRP - Certified VMS Disaster Preparedness Professional
The list is endless. Charge money for them and offer "bootcamps".
Another revenue stream and it will get VMS out in the public eye.
I'm going to guess such may be beyond VSI's resources, at this point in
time. Doesn't make it a bad idea. There does happen to be a few
organizations who are already providing the training, perhaps VSI making
them "official" might be a good idea. Perhaps VSI approved training ...
Gotta get money for the Certs. Otherwise they serve no purpose at
all. :-)
Post by David Froble
Not that the idea appeals to me, not since the Microsoft Certified Idiot
who told me I can't be much of a programmer since I didn't use PHP ....
Certifications. Where else can you find something that places higher
value on a weekend of cramming over 30 years of real world, hands-on
experience.

bill
Stephen Hoffman
2017-04-26 15:38:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Froble
When was the last time you saw Microsoft give a functional copy of any
of their OSes away?
https://bizspark.microsoft.com
Post by David Froble
How much you been paying for the various *ix you may have been using?
Guess what BizSpark is aimed at?
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
Bill Gunshannon
2017-04-26 16:44:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by David Froble
Post by Bill Gunshannon
When was the last time you saw Microsoft give a functional copy of
any of their OSes away?
https://bizspark.microsoft.com
Maybe I just didn't understand what it said, but I didn't see
them giving anything other than time on their "Cloud" which to
me is hardly the same as giving away free copies of their OSes
with permission to use them on any of my own hardware.
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by David Froble
How much you been paying for the various *ix you may have been using?
Guess what BizSpark is aimed at?
Suckering more people into throwing security out the window by using
the Cloud?

bill
Arne Vajhøj
2017-04-26 17:28:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Bill Gunshannon
When was the last time you saw Microsoft give a functional copy of
any of their OSes away?
https://bizspark.microsoft.com
Strictly speaking that is not for everybody.

It is for developers.

I believe HP has a similar problem. Based on the frequent complaints
about the program not working well. :-)

VSI need such as well!

Arne
Kerry Main
2017-04-27 00:07:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
-----Original Message-----
David Froble via Info-vax
Sent: April 26, 2017 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Info-vax] VMS at 40 promotional material ?
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Simon Clubley
Does anyone have any plans for any VMS at 40 promotional
material ?
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Stephen Hoffman
I'd rather see VSI invest in presentations and efforts around the
future of OpenVMS, and rather less on commemorating the
past.
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Face forward. OpenVMS isn't in the best of places in the
market,
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Stephen Hoffman
and VSI is working diligently to try to remediate that.
To current and new users and to VSI, each new OpenVMS
release is a
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Stephen Hoffman
bigger deal than any previous OpenVMS release from the last
forty
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Stephen Hoffman
years
Yes, but any kind of news that will put VMS in the footlight is
good, including a 40 year anniversary.
This whole discussion will hopefully be moot, and just as soon as
VSI
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
Post by Stephen Hoffman
ships the x86-64 port. That's forward-looking. That matters.
That'll generate interest.
If you look at major release announcements for other operating
systems
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
in the x86-64 world, the norm nowadays is to provide a download
site so
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
that folks can try it out.
1) some kind of pre-installed demo license which doesn't require
the
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
current hoops involved with the Hobbyist setup
2a) the provision of a disk image which can be run inside
VirtualBox
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
or VMware or other VM host - those products are common
enough
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
today that few people have a separate box they can dedicate to
this kind of task
2b) the provision of VirtualBox and/or VMware images (vagrant?)
for
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
those who prefer that to installing from scratch
3) depending on 1), automating the Hobbyist programme to cope
with
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
large numbers of registrations. It's simply too many steps
for the casual downloader to be bothered with, let alone
the manual work involved on the HP side responding to requests
for a download URL
4) introduction material to demonstrate the main features and
strengths of the OS
On that last item, I have downloaded and installed quite a few
operating
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
systems over the years and without pointers to their features have
been
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
somewhat underwhelmed, in a "Fine, got it installed, now what do I
do
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
with it?" kind of way.
I don't know that it will happen. Perhaps too much inertia. But, the
LMF is one part of VMS that I'd be happy to see go. Here's my
thinking.
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Any serious commercial user is going to insist on support.
Non-commercial use should be free and unlimited.
Hobbyists and developers are an asset to VSI, should be recognized as
such, and encouraged in all manners.
So, how about the cheap ass commercial users who won't purchase
the
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
required support contract? Well, for one thing, no matter what,
you're
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
not going to get any revenue out of them. Nothing to lose there.
But
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
consider, they will have IT staff, and that staff will need to be
familiar with VMS, and isn't that a plus, even if there is no revenue?
And who knows, in the future some people with some morals might
say
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
"hey, we're operating illegally, we should get legal, and there is the
support revenue. Regardless, if they are cheap, their IT staff will be
underpaid, and when those VMS knowledgeable people go looking
elsewhere
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
for a job, well, that's good for VSI and VMS.
Not really a downside to doing away with the LMF ....
Two tings.....
When was the last time you saw Microsoft give a functional copy of
any of their OSes away?
How much you been paying for the various *ix you may have been
using?
Post by Bill Gunshannon
How about jumping on the certification bandwagon? Start offering
VMS Certifications. Anybody with a brain knows that certifications
are actually of limited if any value but they are what the industry
wants to see. And we all know three letter "C" people don't have a
brain anyway.
CVSA - Certified VMS System Administrator
CVPD - Certified VMS Program Developer
CVCM - Certified VMS Cluster Manager
CVDRP - Certified VMS Disaster Preparedness Professional
The list is endless. Charge money for them and offer "bootcamps".
Another revenue stream and it will get VMS out in the public eye.
I'm going to guess such may be beyond VSI's resources, at this point
in
time.
Doesn't make it a bad idea. There does happen to be a few
organizations
who are
already providing the training, perhaps VSI making them "official"
might
be a
good idea. Perhaps VSI approved training ...
Not that the idea appeals to me, not since the Microsoft Certified
Idiot
who
told me I can't be much of a programmer since I didn't use PHP ....
VSI OpenVMS Training and certification:
<https://www.vmssoftware.com/training/index.html>
<https://www.vmssoftware.com/training/tr_sched.html>

Regards,

Kerry Main
Kerry dot main at starkgaming dot com
Bill Gunshannon
2017-04-27 00:16:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Paul Sture
-----Original Message-----
David Froble via Info-vax
Sent: April 26, 2017 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Info-vax] VMS at 40 promotional material ?
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Simon Clubley
Does anyone have any plans for any VMS at 40 promotional
material ?
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Stephen Hoffman
I'd rather see VSI invest in presentations and efforts around
the
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Stephen Hoffman
future of OpenVMS, and rather less on commemorating the
past.
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Face forward. OpenVMS isn't in the best of places in the
market,
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Stephen Hoffman
and VSI is working diligently to try to remediate that.
To current and new users and to VSI, each new OpenVMS
release is a
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Stephen Hoffman
bigger deal than any previous OpenVMS release from the last
forty
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Stephen Hoffman
years
Yes, but any kind of news that will put VMS in the footlight is
good, including a 40 year anniversary.
This whole discussion will hopefully be moot, and just as soon as
VSI
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
Post by Stephen Hoffman
ships the x86-64 port. That's forward-looking. That matters.
That'll generate interest.
If you look at major release announcements for other operating
systems
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
in the x86-64 world, the norm nowadays is to provide a download
site so
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
that folks can try it out.
1) some kind of pre-installed demo license which doesn't require
the
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
current hoops involved with the Hobbyist setup
2a) the provision of a disk image which can be run inside
VirtualBox
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
or VMware or other VM host - those products are common
enough
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
today that few people have a separate box they can dedicate to
this kind of task
2b) the provision of VirtualBox and/or VMware images (vagrant?)
for
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
those who prefer that to installing from scratch
3) depending on 1), automating the Hobbyist programme to cope
with
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
large numbers of registrations. It's simply too many steps
for the casual downloader to be bothered with, let alone
the manual work involved on the HP side responding to requests
for a download URL
4) introduction material to demonstrate the main features and
strengths of the OS
On that last item, I have downloaded and installed quite a few
operating
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
systems over the years and without pointers to their features have
been
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
somewhat underwhelmed, in a "Fine, got it installed, now what do I
do
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
with it?" kind of way.
I don't know that it will happen. Perhaps too much inertia. But,
the
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
LMF is one part of VMS that I'd be happy to see go. Here's my
thinking.
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Any serious commercial user is going to insist on support.
Non-commercial use should be free and unlimited.
Hobbyists and developers are an asset to VSI, should be recognized
as
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
such, and encouraged in all manners.
So, how about the cheap ass commercial users who won't purchase
the
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
required support contract? Well, for one thing, no matter what,
you're
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
not going to get any revenue out of them. Nothing to lose there.
But
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
consider, they will have IT staff, and that staff will need to be
familiar with VMS, and isn't that a plus, even if there is no
revenue?
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
And who knows, in the future some people with some morals might
say
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
"hey, we're operating illegally, we should get legal, and there is
the
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
support revenue. Regardless, if they are cheap, their IT staff
will be
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
underpaid, and when those VMS knowledgeable people go looking
elsewhere
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
for a job, well, that's good for VSI and VMS.
Not really a downside to doing away with the LMF ....
Two tings.....
When was the last time you saw Microsoft give a functional copy of
any of their OSes away?
How much you been paying for the various *ix you may have been using?
Post by Bill Gunshannon
How about jumping on the certification bandwagon? Start offering
VMS Certifications. Anybody with a brain knows that certifications
are actually of limited if any value but they are what the industry
wants to see. And we all know three letter "C" people don't have a
brain anyway.
CVSA - Certified VMS System Administrator
CVPD - Certified VMS Program Developer
CVCM - Certified VMS Cluster Manager
CVDRP - Certified VMS Disaster Preparedness Professional
The list is endless. Charge money for them and offer "bootcamps".
Another revenue stream and it will get VMS out in the public eye.
I'm going to guess such may be beyond VSI's resources, at this point
in
time.
Doesn't make it a bad idea. There does happen to be a few
organizations
who are
already providing the training, perhaps VSI making them "official"
might
be a
good idea. Perhaps VSI approved training ...
Not that the idea appeals to me, not since the Microsoft Certified
Idiot
who
told me I can't be much of a programmer since I didn't use PHP ....
<https://www.vmssoftware.com/training/index.html>
<https://www.vmssoftware.com/training/tr_sched.html>
I see only training. I see nothing of certification at all much less
anything that would have the status of MCSE, Cisco, CompTIA or ISC2.
It's bad enough that theirs are really worthless, but anything less is
really meaningless.

bill
Kerry Main
2017-04-27 00:34:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
-----Original Message-----
Gunshannon via Info-vax
Sent: April 26, 2017 8:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Info-vax] VMS at 40 promotional material ?
[snip..]
Post by Kerry Main
<https://www.vmssoftware.com/training/index.html>
<https://www.vmssoftware.com/training/tr_sched.html>
I see only training. I see nothing of certification at all much less
anything that would have the status of MCSE, Cisco, CompTIA or ISC2.
It's bad enough that theirs are really worthless, but anything less is
really meaningless.
bill
That is only true for level 1 front line support types. Companies
looking for Level 2/3 support resources know that many senior,
experienced people have gotten burned out with all of the vendor re-cert
work requirements.

When looking for L2/3 resources, large companies will emphasize
documenting and showing real world project experience.

As I recall, Cisco requires a re-cert every 2 years which means big $'s
and loads of time prepping for exams. After 2 or 3 cycles of this, most
experienced resources say "forget it".

Same goes for the MS and other certs.

Having stated this, a re-cert for OpenVMS technical training that was
good for 5 years might be something to look at.


Regards,

Kerry Main
Kerry dot main at starkgaming dot com
Bob Koehler
2017-04-27 13:09:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bill Gunshannon
I see only training. I see nothing of certification at all much less
anything that would have the status of MCSE, Cisco, CompTIA or ISC2.
It's bad enough that theirs are really worthless, but anything less is
really meaningless.
Back when we were all Fortran and assembly programmers, we inherited
a new system written in C. So they sent a couple of us to a C course
at DEC.

Got a nice certificate that hung on my wall for a while. Didn't get
a 4 letter title to go with it. Does that mean the certification
didn't count?
Bill Gunshannon
2017-04-27 14:19:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Bill Gunshannon
I see only training. I see nothing of certification at all much less
anything that would have the status of MCSE, Cisco, CompTIA or ISC2.
It's bad enough that theirs are really worthless, but anything less is
really meaningless.
Back when we were all Fortran and assembly programmers, we inherited
a new system written in C. So they sent a couple of us to a C course
at DEC.
Got a nice certificate that hung on my wall for a while. Didn't get
a 4 letter title to go with it. Does that mean the certification
didn't count?
In a word, yes. Look at today's vacancy announcements. Or better
still, look at things like government requirements. Jobs that require
a PhD as an educational qualification will take experience instead but
the job requires anything from Network+/Security+ all the way up to
CISSP.

Now, the government may not be a really good example, but they tend to
follow the hiring practices (well, except for discrimination practices)
of the rest of the industry. Dinky little weekend bootcamp certs are
considered of more value than a an advanced Graduate degree from an
accredited University.

But for a cert to have value it must be one that is established in the
industry. Heck, I have a pile of DISA issued certificates of training
and I still got told I lacked the necessary qualifications for a job
there even though I did that same job as a member of the military. But,
I don't have any of the real certs.

bill
Bob Koehler
2017-04-27 18:18:06 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Bob Koehler
Got a nice certificate that hung on my wall for a while. Didn't get
a 4 letter title to go with it. Does that mean the certification
didn't count?
In a word, yes. Look at today's vacancy announcements. Or better
still, look at things like government requirements.
In a shorter word, no. I don't want any of those jobs anyhow.
j***@yahoo.co.uk
2017-04-27 07:52:26 UTC
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Post by Paul Sture
-----Original Message-----
David Froble via Info-vax
Sent: April 26, 2017 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Info-vax] VMS at 40 promotional material ?
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Simon Clubley
Does anyone have any plans for any VMS at 40 promotional
material ?
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Stephen Hoffman
I'd rather see VSI invest in presentations and efforts around
the
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Stephen Hoffman
future of OpenVMS, and rather less on commemorating the
past.
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Face forward. OpenVMS isn't in the best of places in the
market,
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Stephen Hoffman
and VSI is working diligently to try to remediate that.
To current and new users and to VSI, each new OpenVMS
release is a
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Stephen Hoffman
bigger deal than any previous OpenVMS release from the last
forty
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Stephen Hoffman
years
Yes, but any kind of news that will put VMS in the footlight is
good, including a 40 year anniversary.
This whole discussion will hopefully be moot, and just as soon as
VSI
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
Post by Stephen Hoffman
ships the x86-64 port. That's forward-looking. That matters.
That'll generate interest.
If you look at major release announcements for other operating
systems
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
in the x86-64 world, the norm nowadays is to provide a download
site so
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
that folks can try it out.
1) some kind of pre-installed demo license which doesn't require
the
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
current hoops involved with the Hobbyist setup
2a) the provision of a disk image which can be run inside
VirtualBox
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
or VMware or other VM host - those products are common
enough
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
today that few people have a separate box they can dedicate to
this kind of task
2b) the provision of VirtualBox and/or VMware images (vagrant?)
for
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
those who prefer that to installing from scratch
3) depending on 1), automating the Hobbyist programme to cope
with
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
large numbers of registrations. It's simply too many steps
for the casual downloader to be bothered with, let alone
the manual work involved on the HP side responding to requests
for a download URL
4) introduction material to demonstrate the main features and
strengths of the OS
On that last item, I have downloaded and installed quite a few
operating
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
systems over the years and without pointers to their features have
been
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
somewhat underwhelmed, in a "Fine, got it installed, now what do I
do
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Paul Sture
with it?" kind of way.
I don't know that it will happen. Perhaps too much inertia. But,
the
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
LMF is one part of VMS that I'd be happy to see go. Here's my
thinking.
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Any serious commercial user is going to insist on support.
Non-commercial use should be free and unlimited.
Hobbyists and developers are an asset to VSI, should be recognized
as
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
such, and encouraged in all manners.
So, how about the cheap ass commercial users who won't purchase
the
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
required support contract? Well, for one thing, no matter what,
you're
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
not going to get any revenue out of them. Nothing to lose there.
But
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
consider, they will have IT staff, and that staff will need to be
familiar with VMS, and isn't that a plus, even if there is no
revenue?
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
And who knows, in the future some people with some morals might
say
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
"hey, we're operating illegally, we should get legal, and there is
the
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
support revenue. Regardless, if they are cheap, their IT staff
will be
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
underpaid, and when those VMS knowledgeable people go looking
elsewhere
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
for a job, well, that's good for VSI and VMS.
Not really a downside to doing away with the LMF ....
Two tings.....
When was the last time you saw Microsoft give a functional copy of
any of their OSes away?
How much you been paying for the various *ix you may have been using?
Post by Bill Gunshannon
How about jumping on the certification bandwagon? Start offering
VMS Certifications. Anybody with a brain knows that certifications
are actually of limited if any value but they are what the industry
wants to see. And we all know three letter "C" people don't have a
brain anyway.
CVSA - Certified VMS System Administrator
CVPD - Certified VMS Program Developer
CVCM - Certified VMS Cluster Manager
CVDRP - Certified VMS Disaster Preparedness Professional
The list is endless. Charge money for them and offer "bootcamps".
Another revenue stream and it will get VMS out in the public eye.
I'm going to guess such may be beyond VSI's resources, at this point
in
time.
Doesn't make it a bad idea. There does happen to be a few
organizations
who are
already providing the training, perhaps VSI making them "official"
might
be a
good idea. Perhaps VSI approved training ...
Not that the idea appeals to me, not since the Microsoft Certified
Idiot
who
told me I can't be much of a programmer since I didn't use PHP ....
<https://www.vmssoftware.com/training/index.html>
<https://www.vmssoftware.com/training/tr_sched.html>
Regards,
Kerry Main
Kerry dot main at starkgaming dot com
I was very briefly involved in the "certification" thing
when VMS was a relatively recent arrival at HP.

There didn't seem to be any consensus inside HP (and in
the outsiders close to them) as to what certification was
for - whether it was (a) an indication that someone
had read the training materials and could pass a test
(b) an indication that someone actually knew their stuff
and would be an asset to an organisation's IT needs,
above and beyond the basic "What does HELP do?" stuff.

The same applies to other vendors too, some are better
at this certification thing than others. "Better"
can also depend on viewpoint - if you're reliant on
training income, then it's perhaps in your interests
for the curriculum to change reasonably frequently.
Other people might see that lack of stability in the
curriculum as a problem rather than an opportunity.

Is this something for VSI (alone) to look at? I
rather doubt it. Is it something for VSI and external
organisations (preferably with a good track record)
to look at, together? I've seen public signs that's
already happening, at least in terms of training.
[Could I find those signs again if I tried? Different
question, and I need to be elsewhere soon]

Interesting times.
Arne Vajhøj
2017-04-26 17:25:42 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
When was the last time you saw Microsoft give a functional copy of
any of their OSes away?
Fully functional but time limited copies are usually available.

And given that the A Win10 Home OEM seems to cost $80, then
something is available dirt cheap.

The server editions can be rather expensive though.

Arne
Bill Gunshannon
2017-04-26 17:36:35 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
When was the last time you saw Microsoft give a functional copy of
any of their OSes away?
Fully functional but time limited copies are usually available.
Time limited is not fully functional. Or are you saying VMS with a
30 day limit would find acceptance in the IT world today?
Post by Arne Vajhøj
And given that the A Win10 Home OEM seems to cost $80, then
something is available dirt cheap.
maybe, but VMS is a serv er OS, not a "Home" OS. Once again,
apples and oranges.
Post by Arne Vajhøj
The server editions can be rather expensive though.
Can be? :-)

By the way, even the MSDNAA licenses have become less usable than
they were in the past. I had a hardware failure a short time ago
and had to use up three licenses to get the old system running on
new hardware.

VSI needs a serious developers system. Lets hope something usable
can be forthcoming.

bill
Arne Vajhøj
2017-04-26 17:49:05 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
When was the last time you saw Microsoft give a functional copy of
any of their OSes away?
Fully functional but time limited copies are usually available.
Time limited is not fully functional. Or are you saying VMS with a
30 day limit would find acceptance in the IT world today?
Desktop Windows is 3 months and server Windows is 6 months.

And I think t here may be a chance to extend period.

Sufficient to play around, learn and test.
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
And given that the A Win10 Home OEM seems to cost $80, then
something is available dirt cheap.
maybe, but VMS is a serv er OS, not a "Home" OS. Once again,
apples and oranges.
Yes. But people that want to develop software for Windows server
does so on Windows desktop.
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
The server editions can be rather expensive though.
Can be? :-)
It depends on the editionn.

Essential is $500.

Data Center with CAL's can be bloody expensive.

Arne
Bill Gunshannon
2017-04-26 20:51:01 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
When was the last time you saw Microsoft give a functional copy of
any of their OSes away?
Fully functional but time limited copies are usually available.
Time limited is not fully functional. Or are you saying VMS with a
30 day limit would find acceptance in the IT world today?
Desktop Windows is 3 months and server Windows is 6 months.
And I think t here may be a chance to extend period.
Sufficient to play around, learn and test.
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
And given that the A Win10 Home OEM seems to cost $80, then
something is available dirt cheap.
maybe, but VMS is a serv er OS, not a "Home" OS. Once again,
apples and oranges.
Yes. But people that want to develop software for Windows server
does so on Windows desktop.
Are you sure about that? I didn't.

bill
Bob Koehler
2017-04-26 20:02:06 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
maybe, but VMS is a serv er OS, not a "Home" OS. Once again,
apples and oranges.
VMS is a general purpose OS. For the last many years, the owners
have only marketed it and developed it as a server OS, but it happily
does just fine in my home.
Bill Gunshannon
2017-04-26 20:53:45 UTC
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Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Bill Gunshannon
maybe, but VMS is a serv er OS, not a "Home" OS. Once again,
apples and oranges.
VMS is a general purpose OS. For the last many years, the owners
have only marketed it and developed it as a server OS, but it happily
does just fine in my home.
What you use it for is irrelevant. I have Server 2008 in my home but
that doesn't change what it is. Heck, I have had Primos in my home.
And DomainIX. And OS-9 (not the MAC one!) And even z/OS.

bill
Simon Clubley
2017-04-26 23:39:55 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
And even z/OS.
If you got that legally, I would _very_ much like to know how you
did it. :-)

Thanks,

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
Bill Gunshannon
2017-04-27 00:07:52 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Bill Gunshannon
And even z/OS.
If you got that legally, I would _very_ much like to know how you
did it. :-)
OK, maybe not really z/OS, it's a z/390 emulator, but close enough for
this forum. :-)

bill
David Froble
2017-04-27 04:21:16 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Bill Gunshannon
And even z/OS.
If you got that legally, I would _very_ much like to know how you
did it. :-)
Thanks,
Simon.
Perhaps an older and now worthless system, with licenses?

What is a VAX 9000 worth today?
Kerry Main
2017-04-27 00:16:07 UTC
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-----Original Message-----
Koehler via Info-vax
Sent: April 26, 2017 4:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Info-vax] VMS at 40 promotional material ?
Post by Bill Gunshannon
maybe, but VMS is a serv er OS, not a "Home" OS. Once again,
apples and oranges.
VMS is a general purpose OS. For the last many years, the owners
have only marketed it and developed it as a server OS, but it happily
does just fine in my home.
My albeit biased viewpoint: (only half humour)

Within DEC/Compaq/HP/HPE, OpenVMS was the Cinderella system.

Like Cinderella, there were some mean step sisters who carried more weight internally, as well as an evil godmother.

Now, Prince VSI has arrived and we are all waiting to see what happens next.

😊


Regards,

Kerry Main
Kerry dot main at starkgaming dot com
David Froble
2017-04-27 04:18:45 UTC
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Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Bill Gunshannon
maybe, but VMS is a serv er OS, not a "Home" OS. Once again,
apples and oranges.
VMS is a general purpose OS. For the last many years, the owners
have only marketed it and developed it as a server OS, but it happily
does just fine in my home.
Yeah, but does it play StarCraft?

Way back, at U of Pgh there was a PDP-11 with a large monitor, light pen, and
lunar lander "game". I call it a game, others might have called it a
demonstration. This was long before the first PC.

Gaming is one of the things DEC let slide right be them. "Who wants a computer
in their home?" Not sure, I don't study such, but perhaps some of the large
gaming companies today may be bigger than DEC ever was.

Gamers purchase the expensive and obsolete in 6 months video cards.

Gamers purchase the Intel i7 processors.
IanD
2017-04-27 20:52:18 UTC
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Post by David Froble
Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Bill Gunshannon
maybe, but VMS is a serv er OS, not a "Home" OS. Once again,
apples and oranges.
VMS is a general purpose OS. For the last many years, the owners
have only marketed it and developed it as a server OS, but it happily
does just fine in my home.
Yeah, but does it play StarCraft?
Way back, at U of Pgh there was a PDP-11 with a large monitor, light pen, and
lunar lander "game". I call it a game, others might have called it a
demonstration. This was long before the first PC.
Gaming is one of the things DEC let slide right be them. "Who wants a computer
in their home?" Not sure, I don't study such, but perhaps some of the large
gaming companies today may be bigger than DEC ever was.
Gamers purchase the expensive and obsolete in 6 months video cards.
Gamers purchase the Intel i7 processors.
Gaming sadly for some folks conjures up images of pimply faced kids cramming snacks and sugar beverages down the gullets while making childish retorts at one another - nothing could be further from the truth

Gaming is big business. The age of the average gamer keeps getting extended while the age distribution spreads out at both ends of the spectrum

e sports events attract larger crowds than any single physical stadium can hold and revenue from gaming exceeded the movie industry long ago (excluding on-sell BS marketing crap, but that is changing too)

As to the technology involved in gaming or more to the point, the underlining technology, there are specific courses now at university level that are gaming specific. It's a discipline that covers a vast array of IT areas now including big data

As the world looks to more graphically based solutions, gaming is growing in importance because of the technology stack it sits on and has manipulated for years. throw in things like porn as well which pretty well drove the initial uptake of HD (I have no idea of it's adoption for 4K)

I assume you were meaning i7 as a way of showing how gamers opt for intel cpu technology

The i5 is in fact the cpu of choice for gamers because of it's higher clock speed

The new Ryzen cpu's (8 core, 16 thread) are beasts but are being overlooked by gamers, again because of clock speed but as games push more into multi-core enabled the swing towards high core count will return

The Ryzen 5 is getting a lot of gamers very excited

Add in GPU's and AMD's soon to be released APU's and gaming should see a new level of focus for pushing the development envelope across the whole aspect of gaming. We already see gpu's heavily weigh in on computing systems

Digital vacated this space to its detriment but it was also in area that took a back seat to things like db's and straight out cpu horsepower races. As the gpu element comes back into vogue and all the associated technologies that wrapped itself around gpu's, the importance of the graphical aspect of IT will only grow in importance

The predictions of the GPU surpassing the CPU as the core functional component may yet happen!
Arne Vajhøj
2017-04-26 17:28:43 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
How about jumping on the certification bandwagon? Start offering
VMS Certifications. Anybody with a brain knows that certifications
are actually of limited if any value but they are what the industry
wants to see. And we all know three letter "C" people don't have a
brain anyway.
CVSA - Certified VMS System Administrator
CVPD - Certified VMS Program Developer
CVCM - Certified VMS Cluster Manager
CVDRP - Certified VMS Disaster Preparedness Professional
The list is endless. Charge money for them and offer "bootcamps".
Another revenue stream and it will get VMS out in the public eye.
Very interesting idea!!

Arne
Stephen Hoffman
2017-04-26 15:19:34 UTC
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Post by David Froble
I don't know that it will happen. Perhaps too much inertia. But, the
LMF is one part of VMS that I'd be happy to see go. Here's my thinking.
Any serious commercial user is going to insist on support.
Many mid-range and larger commercial sites will. Particularly sites
that want somebody else to blame. Smaller sites and startups won't.
Sites that self-support won't.
Post by David Froble
Non-commercial use should be free and unlimited.
Windows is "free" (licenses embedded with certain x86 hardware), Linux
and BSD are free for commercial use or otherwise, and with self- and
commercial-support options.

A two-core OpenVMS base license alone costs more than a complete
commercially-licensed three-years-vendor-support configuration —
hardware, tools, software, and support. That's for a well-known
vendor. I can acquire new second-tier hardware and Linux and go
self-supported for less than that.
Post by David Froble
Hobbyists and developers are an asset to VSI, should be recognized as
such, and encouraged in all manners.
Hobbyists are nice, but it's the small commercial users and the
prototype projects that are central to new apps and new markets. The
hobbyists that see a path to profit.
Post by David Froble
So, how about the cheap ass commercial users who won't purchase the
required support contract? Well, for one thing, no matter what, you're
not going to get any revenue out of them. Nothing to lose there. But
consider, they will have IT staff, and that staff will need to be
familiar with VMS, and isn't that a plus, even if there is no revenue?
And who knows, in the future some people with some morals might say
"hey, we're operating illegally, we should get legal, and there is the
support revenue. Regardless, if they are cheap, their IT staff will be
underpaid, and when those VMS knowledgeable people go looking elsewhere
for a job, well, that's good for VSI and VMS.
I stumbled into a feed that was listing cracked OpenVMS apps a while
back. Not sure if any of it was actually cracked, or if it was
cracked and also laced with malware for OpenVMS, or if it was just
random bot fodder.
Post by David Froble
Not really a downside to doing away with the LMF ....
Outside of the OpenVMS installed base... Why would I start out a new
project an operating system that's harder to use, much more expensive,
requires a whole lot more work to develop for, and expects completely
odd-ball hardware, and with very limited hardware support? And that's
given I know the platform, the reliability of the product, and most of
the development team. VSI knows about and is addressing many of these
issues, but it'll take most of a decade to sort this out. The biggest
administrative pieces involve the legacy administration and pricing
policies; no business wants to lower their profits, and there's a good
discussion around whether the OpenVMS market is even elastic. It'll
take more than a little technical work to get it more elastic. The
biggest technical piece is the port. Unfortunately with any product
catch-up efforts and any efforts to gain competitive advantage through
features or pricing, the competing systems are also all moving forward
apace, too. Which means VSI has to be very careful about licenses and
prices and packages, and what areas they target for development.

TL;DR: OpenVMS has no entry-level offerings. Not even any mid-range
offerings, these days. See David Dachtera's comments about affordable
OpenVMS, and from most of twenty years ago. It's all about the
installed base. Until and unless VSI can make it not about the
installed base. They're very clearly working on this, too. But it'll
take years to get there, and with the availability of a viable x86-64
port likely being the next big moment for their business success.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2017-04-26 16:22:07 UTC
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Post by Stephen Hoffman
TL;DR: OpenVMS has no entry-level offerings. Not even any mid-range
offerings, these days.
Sic transit gloria mundi. Whatever happened to "desktop to datacenter"?
Arne Vajhøj
2017-04-26 17:51:39 UTC
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Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Stephen Hoffman
TL;DR: OpenVMS has no entry-level offerings. Not even any mid-range
offerings, these days.
Sic transit gloria mundi. Whatever happened to "desktop to datacenter"?
That concept is dying.

Windows desktop and Windows server is diverging more and more.

Linux distros are also increasingly splitting up in server distros
(RHEL, SUSE, Debian etc.) and client distros (*buntu etc.).

Both Windows and Linux has one huge advantage though - you can build
native code on a desktop version for a server version.

Arne
Bill Gunshannon
2017-04-26 20:49:37 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Stephen Hoffman
TL;DR: OpenVMS has no entry-level offerings. Not even any mid-range
offerings, these days.
Sic transit gloria mundi. Whatever happened to "desktop to datacenter"?
That concept is dying.
Windows desktop and Windows server is diverging more and more.
Linux distros are also increasingly splitting up in server distros
(RHEL, SUSE, Debian etc.) and client distros (*buntu etc.).
Both Windows and Linux has one huge advantage though - you can build
native code on a desktop version for a server version.
Arne
What, you can't do that with VMS?

bill
Arne Vajhøj
2017-04-27 20:35:49 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Stephen Hoffman
TL;DR: OpenVMS has no entry-level offerings. Not even any mid-range
offerings, these days.
Sic transit gloria mundi. Whatever happened to "desktop to datacenter"?
That concept is dying.
Windows desktop and Windows server is diverging more and more.
Linux distros are also increasingly splitting up in server distros
(RHEL, SUSE, Debian etc.) and client distros (*buntu etc.).
Both Windows and Linux has one huge advantage though - you can build
native code on a desktop version for a server version.
What, you can't do that with VMS?
I don't think any VMS system will qualify as a desktop system.

Arne
Bill Gunshannon
2017-04-28 00:28:48 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Stephen Hoffman
TL;DR: OpenVMS has no entry-level offerings. Not even any mid-range
offerings, these days.
Sic transit gloria mundi. Whatever happened to "desktop to
datacenter"?
That concept is dying.
Windows desktop and Windows server is diverging more and more.
Linux distros are also increasingly splitting up in server distros
(RHEL, SUSE, Debian etc.) and client distros (*buntu etc.).
Both Windows and Linux has one huge advantage though - you can build
native code on a desktop version for a server version.
What, you can't do that with VMS?
I don't think any VMS system will qualify as a desktop system.
Arne
My VAXStation 3100's do. :-)

bill
Bob Koehler
2017-04-28 13:22:25 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
I don't think any VMS system will qualify as a desktop system.
By "will" do you mean future release? That VLC I had certainly
wasn't a mainframe.
David Froble
2017-04-25 04:08:56 UTC
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Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Simon Clubley
Does anyone have any plans for any VMS at 40 promotional material ?
I'd rather see VSI invest in presentations and efforts around the
future of OpenVMS, and rather less on commemorating the past.
Face forward. OpenVMS isn't in the best of places in the market,
and VSI is working diligently to try to remediate that.
To current and new users and to VSI, each new OpenVMS release is a
bigger deal than any previous OpenVMS release from the last forty years
Yes, but any kind of news that will put VMS in the footlight is good,
including a 40 year anniversary.
40 years of excellence, better than ever, and getting even better ....
Dirk Munk
2017-04-27 16:07:02 UTC
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Post by David Froble
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Simon Clubley
Does anyone have any plans for any VMS at 40 promotional material ?
I'd rather see VSI invest in presentations and efforts around the
future of OpenVMS, and rather less on commemorating the past.
Face forward. OpenVMS isn't in the best of places in the market,
and VSI is working diligently to try to remediate that.
To current and new users and to VSI, each new OpenVMS release is a
bigger deal than any previous OpenVMS release from the last forty years
Yes, but any kind of news that will put VMS in the footlight is good,
including a 40 year anniversary.
40 years of excellence, better than ever, and getting even better ....
To proof my point I have a nice example.

On Quora is the following thread:

"If macOS and Linux are based on Unix, then what is Windows based on and
why was it implemented like this by Bill Gates?"

Somewhere in the thread someone responded with this:

"I worked extensively on VMS in the mid-80’s, and it was a fantastic OS.
I now work directly with the NT kernel, and I can attest to the fact
that the heritage is obvious and the qualities of design also. Having
worked with the Unix kernel at several points over the last decades, the
clear superiority of the VMS kernel design is inarguable. It is a
magnificent piece of code."

So I replied with:

"How do you mean VMS >was< a fantastic OS? It still is!! Today it is
developed by VMS Software Incorporated (VSI), and an x86–64 (OpenVMS 9)
version is due in 2018."

And he replied with:

"Wow I did not know, fascinating. Have not touched VMS in 25 years"


So I would say that VMS can use a bit of promotion, and a 40 year
anniversary is a very good occasion for that promotion.
IanD
2017-04-26 04:27:41 UTC
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Wow, 40. I remember it was only just yesterday that the 20 year mark came and went and like my 30's i don't know what the hell happened to them

I'm in part agreement with Hoff, forward looking should feature heavily in the promotion

My kids are typical of most, they don't give a shi*t about the past (yes, to their detriment), they care about now and if lucky, the very near future

I'd like to see something that details the achievements of the past (brief) but more importantly focus on the core work being done now but even more importantly that this is just the beginnings of a foundation work that will project VMS into the future and how this future will require new ideas and new thoughts and the future dreamers and ideas folk out there to step up and come forward and be an active part of VMS-Future (or whatever catchy name we will give it)

No disrespect intended but when i look at the VSI site i can't say i really see a strong vision statement and i cant say the mission statement is punchy enough for my liking either. It non confronting and what i would too respectful, much like how i used to write my resume actually until i was told rewrite it and put your balls on the line!!! (a recruiter told me this actually)

If your really wanting to inspire the next generation of young people to be involved and carry the VMS message, then we need to sell it like it's never been sold before, even if it means taking it up and going it

The rules of marketing know no bounds

Sell the future more than the past, put the invite out there for others to be part of the future and tell them they are needed as are their ideas

My 2c worth
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2017-04-26 04:42:04 UTC
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Post by IanD
Wow, 40. I remember it was only just yesterday that the 20 year mark came a
and went and like my 30's i don't know what the hell happened to them
I still have a "VMS at 20" bumper sticker. I have two more, unused, for
the next two cars. That should take care of me until I am 85.
Kerry Main
2017-04-27 00:00:29 UTC
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-----Original Message-----
Phillip Helbig undress to reply via Info-vax
Sent: April 26, 2017 12:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Info-vax] VMS at 40 promotional material ?
In article <4923ee04-d094-4744-b667-
Post by IanD
Wow, 40. I remember it was only just yesterday that the 20 year mark
came a
Post by IanD
and went and like my 30's i don't know what the hell happened to
them
I still have a "VMS at 20" bumper sticker. I have two more, unused, for
the next two cars. That should take care of me until I am 85.
Re: VMS at 20 .. check this out:

Really nice brochure with behind the scenes stories and pics that I
would be willing to bet are not well known here in c.o.v.

<http://h20565.www2.hpe.com/hpsc/doc/public/display?docId=emr_na-c046233
68>


Regards,

Kerry Main
Kerry dot main at starkgaming dot com
Bob Koehler
2017-04-27 13:06:49 UTC
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Post by Kerry Main
Really nice brochure with behind the scenes stories and pics that I
would be willing to bet are not well known here in c.o.v.
<http://h20565.www2.hpe.com/hpsc/doc/public/display?docId=emr_na-c046233
68>
Almost makes you want to run out and buy a VAX.
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