Discussion:
OT: Salaries and Billing Rates
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seasoned_geek
2016-12-07 12:26:26 UTC
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I'm sure at some level we all know this, but it is nice to have an external source. Just had to put a quick blog together once I stumbled onto that article documenting how new college grads at many many many companies are starting out with base salaries north of $100K plus bennies which total up to about half that again.

http://www.logikalsolutions.com/wordpress/information-technology/calling-all-consulting-firms/
IanD
2016-12-28 23:08:52 UTC
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Post by seasoned_geek
I'm sure at some level we all know this, but it is nice to have an external source. Just had to put a quick blog together once I stumbled onto that article documenting how new college grads at many many many companies are starting out with base salaries north of $100K plus bennies which total up to about half that again.
http://www.logikalsolutions.com/wordpress/information-technology/calling-all-consulting-firms/
Makes one want to go back to school...

I find the Amazon one hard to believe although this is grad salary, not the pleb salary they pay their normal folk. I hear amazon is shocking to work for and they have reviews that are deliberately made impossible to meet - the ultimate hamster wheel
seasoned_geek
2016-12-29 17:16:47 UTC
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Post by IanD
Post by seasoned_geek
I'm sure at some level we all know this, but it is nice to have an external source. Just had to put a quick blog together once I stumbled onto that article documenting how new college grads at many many many companies are starting out with base salaries north of $100K plus bennies which total up to about half that again.
http://www.logikalsolutions.com/wordpress/information-technology/calling-all-consulting-firms/
Makes one want to go back to school...
I find the Amazon one hard to believe although this is grad salary, not the pleb salary they pay their normal folk. I hear amazon is shocking to work for and they have reviews that are deliberately made impossible to meet - the ultimate hamster wheel
What surprised me wasn't seeing the Internet darlings, but even shit holes like Bloomberg were supposedly paying that. Of course they all want you to work 7 days per week 14+ hours per day, but Bloomberg is the Wal-mart of contracting. They quote you some high hourly rate . . . BUT . . . they pay on what they determine to be a "professional day." _They_ assign you what _they_ believe to be "one professional day's worth of work," you have no say. Takes you 6 months to get done, too bad for you, they will pay for a professional day. Why the A.G. would prosecute Wal-mart and not Bloomberg I will never understand.
Bob Koehler
2016-12-29 21:08:28 UTC
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Why the A.G. would prosecute Wal-mart and not Bloomberg I will =
never understand.
Doesn't Bllomberg own the A.G.?
seasoned_geek
2016-12-30 15:44:05 UTC
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Post by Bob Koehler
Why the A.G. would prosecute Wal-mart and not Bloomberg I will =
never understand.
Doesn't Bllomberg own the A.G.?
That would explain it.
m***@gmail.com
2017-01-27 18:24:16 UTC
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Post by seasoned_geek
I'm sure at some level we all know this, but it is nice to have an external source. Just had to put a quick blog together once I stumbled onto that article documenting how new college grads at many many many companies are starting out with base salaries north of $100K plus bennies which total up to about half that again.
http://www.logikalsolutions.com/wordpress/information-technology/calling-all-consulting-firms/
Hello out there! I am an experienced school OT branching out into clinic-based OT dealing with chronic pain/fibromyalgia clients. Am going to be billing Medicare/Medicaide/private insurance, but not sure how much to at an hourly rate. Live in large city, Mpls. Any advice would be apprecated!
abrsvc
2017-01-27 18:50:07 UTC
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This is not the right place to ask. The OT in the title of this string means Off Topic not Occupational Therapy.

Dan
Neil Rieck
2017-02-02 02:32:59 UTC
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Post by seasoned_geek
I'm sure at some level we all know this, but it is nice to have an external source. Just had to put a quick blog together once I stumbled onto that article documenting how new college grads at many many many companies are starting out with base salaries north of $100K plus bennies which total up to about half that again.
http://www.logikalsolutions.com/wordpress/information-technology/calling-all-consulting-firms/
As I look out my office window in Kitchener-Waterloo, I can see the Google building two blocks away which boasts having the largest data center space in Canada (200,000 sq/ft). Last I heard, they currently employ 150 software engineers and no one started under $100k. BTW, anyone at Google can set aside 20% of their work-week to do their own projects. Most people in the real world would call this a 4-day work week :-)

Neil Rieck
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2017-02-02 08:46:10 UTC
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Post by Neil Rieck
As I look out my office window in Kitchener-Waterloo, I can see the Google
building two blocks away which boasts having the largest data center space
in Canada (200,000 sq/ft). Last I heard, they currently employ 150 software
engineers and no one started under $100k. BTW, anyone at Google can set
aside 20% of their work-week to do their own projects. Most people in the
real world would call this a 4-day work week :-)
Have you applied for a job?

100k Canadian dollars?
j***@gmail.com
2017-02-02 13:38:04 UTC
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Post by Neil Rieck
BTW, anyone at Google can set aside 20% of their work-week to do their own projects.
That ended awhile ago. Or at least isn't what you think.

EJ
Bill Gunshannon
2017-02-02 14:26:30 UTC
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Post by j***@gmail.com
Post by Neil Rieck
BTW, anyone at Google can set aside 20% of their work-week to do their own projects.
That ended awhile ago. Or at least isn't what you think.
EJ
Not to mention the fact that, at least under US law, the project
would then be the property of Google. Of course, that would only
matter if the project was a success. :-)

bill
Bob Koehler
2017-02-02 15:28:36 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
Not to mention the fact that, at least under US law, the project
would then be the property of Google. Of course, that would only
matter if the project was a success. :-)
What has US law got to do with it? I thought the OP was posting from
Canada.
David Froble
2017-02-02 19:33:28 UTC
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Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Not to mention the fact that, at least under US law, the project
would then be the property of Google. Of course, that would only
matter if the project was a success. :-)
What has US law got to do with it? I thought the OP was posting from
Canada.
Might not matter much. Unless the specifics are spelled out, when someone is
being paid, anything they do on the job is "work for hire" and belongs to
whoever is doing the paying. I'd guess that's the way it is most places.

Actually, not a bad tactic. When someone comes up with something valuable, the
employer can step in and claim the work. Unless there is some kind of signed
contract saying something else.
Bill Gunshannon
2017-02-03 00:36:17 UTC
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Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Not to mention the fact that, at least under US law, the project
would then be the property of Google. Of course, that would only
matter if the project was a success. :-)
What has US law got to do with it? I thought the OP was posting from
Canada.
Well, Google employs a few people here as well. And I would imagine
Canadian law is similar on this if not exactly the same.

Just trying to point out that this is not as much of a benefit as some
people seem to think.

bill
Johnny Billquist
2017-02-04 11:32:53 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Not to mention the fact that, at least under US law, the project
would then be the property of Google. Of course, that would only
matter if the project was a success. :-)
What has US law got to do with it? I thought the OP was posting from
Canada.
Well, Google employs a few people here as well. And I would imagine
Canadian law is similar on this if not exactly the same.
Just trying to point out that this is not as much of a benefit as some
people seem to think.
I think the law is not that relevant. The employment contract usually
covers such things anyway, and it normally says that the employer owns
whatever the person develops.

Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: ***@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Bob Koehler
2017-02-06 16:16:18 UTC
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Post by Johnny Billquist
I think the law is not that relevant. The employment contract usually
covers such things anyway, and it normally says that the employer owns
whatever the person develops.
Never had an employment contract. What part of the word uses those?
John Reagan
2017-02-06 16:29:03 UTC
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Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Johnny Billquist
I think the law is not that relevant. The employment contract usually
covers such things anyway, and it normally says that the employer owns
whatever the person develops.
Never had an employment contract. What part of the word uses those?
Really? Didn't sign anything to begin employment? I had one with DEC/Digital/Compaq/HP. I have one with VSI. All the code I write, etc. does not belong to me.
David Froble
2017-02-06 17:09:00 UTC
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Post by John Reagan
Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Johnny Billquist
I think the law is not that relevant. The employment contract usually
covers such things anyway, and it normally says that the employer owns
whatever the person develops.
Never had an employment contract. What part of the word uses those?
Really? Didn't sign anything to begin employment? I had one with DEC/Digital/Compaq/HP. I have one with VSI. All the code I write, etc. does not belong to me.
That's not surprising. DEC/Digital/Compaq/HP/VSI are in the business of writing
and selling software. Of course they'd claim anything you do. If you wanted to
do something yourself on your time, you'd need that specified in the "contract".

Now maybe Bob has a "job", that just incidentally includes writing some code.
Since his employer isn't interested in the code as a product, but just what's
required to get the job done, they are not as concerned about "ownership".
However, they would not find it acceptable for Bob to then attempt to charge
them for using the code he writes.

It's best for these things to be spelled out clearly up front.
Johnny Billquist
2017-02-06 20:46:12 UTC
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Post by David Froble
Post by John Reagan
Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Johnny Billquist
I think the law is not that relevant. The employment contract
usually covers such things anyway, and it normally says that the
employer owns whatever the person develops.
Never had an employment contract. What part of the word uses those?
Really? Didn't sign anything to begin employment? I had one with
DEC/Digital/Compaq/HP. I have one with VSI. All the code I write,
etc. does not belong to me.
That's not surprising. DEC/Digital/Compaq/HP/VSI are in the business of
writing and selling software. Of course they'd claim anything you do.
If you wanted to do something yourself on your time, you'd need that
specified in the "contract".
Now maybe Bob has a "job", that just incidentally includes writing some
code. Since his employer isn't interested in the code as a product, but
just what's required to get the job done, they are not as concerned
about "ownership". However, they would not find it acceptable for Bob to
then attempt to charge them for using the code he writes.
It's best for these things to be spelled out clearly up front.
Well, what Bob said was that he never had an employment contract. So, no
contract saying how much he should work, and what the reimbursement
should be, how much vacation he can take, and so on...
I've only been in such a situation when I have been self-employed. I
don't know where Bob is working.

Now, doing things that clearly are not related to work, and done on your
own time, might be a clear cut case of the employer do not have any
right to claim any of it. But as you say, it's usually better to have
all that spelled out explicitly.

Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: ***@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
David Froble
2017-02-06 21:56:43 UTC
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Post by Johnny Billquist
Post by David Froble
Post by John Reagan
Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Johnny Billquist
I think the law is not that relevant. The employment contract
usually covers such things anyway, and it normally says that the
employer owns whatever the person develops.
Never had an employment contract. What part of the word uses those?
Really? Didn't sign anything to begin employment? I had one with
DEC/Digital/Compaq/HP. I have one with VSI. All the code I write,
etc. does not belong to me.
That's not surprising. DEC/Digital/Compaq/HP/VSI are in the business of
writing and selling software. Of course they'd claim anything you do.
If you wanted to do something yourself on your time, you'd need that
specified in the "contract".
Now maybe Bob has a "job", that just incidentally includes writing some
code. Since his employer isn't interested in the code as a product, but
just what's required to get the job done, they are not as concerned
about "ownership". However, they would not find it acceptable for Bob to
then attempt to charge them for using the code he writes.
It's best for these things to be spelled out clearly up front.
Well, what Bob said was that he never had an employment contract. So, no
contract saying how much he should work, and what the reimbursement
should be, how much vacation he can take, and so on...
I've only been in such a situation when I have been self-employed. I
don't know where Bob is working.
Now, doing things that clearly are not related to work, and done on your
own time, might be a clear cut case of the employer do not have any
right to claim any of it. But as you say, it's usually better to have
all that spelled out explicitly.
Johnny
Well, from prior posts, Bob might be working for NASA, or some other government
agency, or contractor. Now, as far as I'm aware, the government doesn't
normally negotiate individual contracts with employees. They just state,
"here's the job, take it or leave it". Perhaps ....

Regardless, if nothing is specified, then there is one overriding consideration.
Who can afford more lawyers?
John Reagan
2017-02-06 22:34:35 UTC
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Post by David Froble
Post by Johnny Billquist
Post by David Froble
Post by John Reagan
Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Johnny Billquist
I think the law is not that relevant. The employment contract
usually covers such things anyway, and it normally says that the
employer owns whatever the person develops.
Never had an employment contract. What part of the word uses those?
Really? Didn't sign anything to begin employment? I had one with
DEC/Digital/Compaq/HP. I have one with VSI. All the code I write,
etc. does not belong to me.
That's not surprising. DEC/Digital/Compaq/HP/VSI are in the business of
writing and selling software. Of course they'd claim anything you do.
If you wanted to do something yourself on your time, you'd need that
specified in the "contract".
Now maybe Bob has a "job", that just incidentally includes writing some
code. Since his employer isn't interested in the code as a product, but
just what's required to get the job done, they are not as concerned
about "ownership". However, they would not find it acceptable for Bob to
then attempt to charge them for using the code he writes.
It's best for these things to be spelled out clearly up front.
Well, what Bob said was that he never had an employment contract. So, no
contract saying how much he should work, and what the reimbursement
should be, how much vacation he can take, and so on...
I've only been in such a situation when I have been self-employed. I
don't know where Bob is working.
Now, doing things that clearly are not related to work, and done on your
own time, might be a clear cut case of the employer do not have any
right to claim any of it. But as you say, it's usually better to have
all that spelled out explicitly.
Johnny
Well, from prior posts, Bob might be working for NASA, or some other government
agency, or contractor. Now, as far as I'm aware, the government doesn't
normally negotiate individual contracts with employees. They just state,
"here's the job, take it or leave it". Perhaps ....
Regardless, if nothing is specified, then there is one overriding consideration.
Who can afford more lawyers?
Prior to Digital, I worked for Union Carbide (who was a subcontractor for the DOE at Oak Ridge TN). Similar situation there. Everything I did went to UC. Of course, with using federal money, much of that was probably public domain (at least the part that wasn't covered by a security clearance), but I certainly could not claim ownership of it.
seasoned_geek
2017-02-07 00:01:39 UTC
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Post by John Reagan
Prior to Digital, I worked for Union Carbide (who was a subcontractor for the DOE at Oak Ridge TN). Similar situation there. Everything I did went to UC. Of course, with using federal money, much of that was probably public domain (at least the part that wasn't covered by a security clearance), but I certainly could not claim ownership of it.
Well, I started consulting rather early on, but, as I remember, even up through my gig at LIOCS I never had an employee contract. I had an employee handbook at 2 jobs but as I remember at LIOCS it was kind of,

"Here's how you fill out your timesheet because every minute of your day is being billed to someone."

Having said that, when I left LIOCS there was no Internet. Bulletin Board systems could provide you echo mail if you could find a BBS which didn't go bankrupt after about a year due to long distance fees.
Bill Gunshannon
2017-02-07 13:54:02 UTC
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Post by David Froble
Post by Johnny Billquist
Post by David Froble
Post by John Reagan
Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Johnny Billquist
I think the law is not that relevant. The employment contract
usually covers such things anyway, and it normally says that the
employer owns whatever the person develops.
Never had an employment contract. What part of the word uses those?
Really? Didn't sign anything to begin employment? I had one with
DEC/Digital/Compaq/HP. I have one with VSI. All the code I write,
etc. does not belong to me.
That's not surprising. DEC/Digital/Compaq/HP/VSI are in the business of
writing and selling software. Of course they'd claim anything you do.
If you wanted to do something yourself on your time, you'd need that
specified in the "contract".
Now maybe Bob has a "job", that just incidentally includes writing some
code. Since his employer isn't interested in the code as a product, but
just what's required to get the job done, they are not as concerned
about "ownership". However, they would not find it acceptable for Bob to
then attempt to charge them for using the code he writes.
It's best for these things to be spelled out clearly up front.
Well, what Bob said was that he never had an employment contract. So,
no contract saying how much he should work, and what the reimbursement
should be, how much vacation he can take, and so on...
I've only been in such a situation when I have been self-employed. I
don't know where Bob is working.
Now, doing things that clearly are not related to work, and done on
your own time, might be a clear cut case of the employer do not have
any right to claim any of it. But as you say, it's usually better to
have all that spelled out explicitly.
Johnny
Well, from prior posts, Bob might be working for NASA, or some other
government agency, or contractor. Now, as far as I'm aware, the
government doesn't normally negotiate individual contracts with
employees. They just state, "here's the job, take it or leave it".
Perhaps ....
Just because they don't negotiate individual packages doesn't
mean there is no contract. Having worked for the government,
among other places, I can assure you there is a contract.
Post by David Froble
Regardless, if nothing is specified, then there is one overriding
consideration. Who can afford more lawyers?
As i said, just because you didn't bother to read it doesn't
mean it doesn't exist. Kinda like software licenses. :-)

bill
Jan-Erik Soderholm
2017-02-07 14:12:38 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Johnny Billquist
Post by David Froble
Post by John Reagan
Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Johnny Billquist
I think the law is not that relevant. The employment contract
usually covers such things anyway, and it normally says that the
employer owns whatever the person develops.
Never had an employment contract. What part of the word uses those?
Really? Didn't sign anything to begin employment? I had one with
DEC/Digital/Compaq/HP. I have one with VSI. All the code I write,
etc. does not belong to me.
That's not surprising. DEC/Digital/Compaq/HP/VSI are in the business of
writing and selling software. Of course they'd claim anything you do.
If you wanted to do something yourself on your time, you'd need that
specified in the "contract".
Now maybe Bob has a "job", that just incidentally includes writing some
code. Since his employer isn't interested in the code as a product, but
just what's required to get the job done, they are not as concerned
about "ownership". However, they would not find it acceptable for Bob to
then attempt to charge them for using the code he writes.
It's best for these things to be spelled out clearly up front.
Well, what Bob said was that he never had an employment contract. So,
no contract saying how much he should work, and what the reimbursement
should be, how much vacation he can take, and so on...
I've only been in such a situation when I have been self-employed. I
don't know where Bob is working.
Now, doing things that clearly are not related to work, and done on
your own time, might be a clear cut case of the employer do not have
any right to claim any of it. But as you say, it's usually better to
have all that spelled out explicitly.
Johnny
Well, from prior posts, Bob might be working for NASA, or some other
government agency, or contractor. Now, as far as I'm aware, the
government doesn't normally negotiate individual contracts with
employees. They just state, "here's the job, take it or leave it".
Perhaps ....
Just because they don't negotiate individual packages doesn't
mean there is no contract. Having worked for the government,
among other places, I can assure you there is a contract.
Post by David Froble
Regardless, if nothing is specified, then there is one overriding
consideration. Who can afford more lawyers?
As i said, just because you didn't bother to read it doesn't
mean it doesn't exist. Kinda like software licenses. :-)
bill
Over here, a handshake is regarded legally as an "agreement".
The issue is of course to prove what the handshake meant... :-)

Any deasent workplace has an "collective agreement" signed centrally
between the "employers' association" and the unions. And everyone
working for that employer works automatically under that agreement.
The collective agrement usually has parts about IP.
seasoned_geek
2017-02-07 16:51:22 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
Just because they don't negotiate individual packages doesn't
mean there is no contract. Having worked for the government,
among other places, I can assure you there is a contract.
As i said, just because you didn't bother to read it doesn't
mean it doesn't exist. Kinda like software licenses. :-)
You know, this just came up at a recent client site. They too had no employee contract. The way it came up was they found out one of the consultants who had been working remotely had spent the bulk of his time contributing code to an OpenSource project while logging billable time to the company. The OpenSource project was hosted on Git and they happened to see all of his check-ins.

The difference here is the size of the entity. Something as massive and tree shredding as a government will have mountains of contract paperwork for each employee. Small shops, typically having 20 people or less, just have an employee benefits handbook which covers time keeping, vacation time, and insurance.

At one place, I, being the only consultant, was the only person who had a contract. Well me and the place they were leasing office space from. There is no way I wouldn't have taken the gig without a contract because I believed the dude was a piss poor money manager. He bought lots of toys for himself, but wouldn't pay to replace/fix the air conditioner. Good thing I had a contract because he stiffed a _lot_ of people but I'm the only one able to take him to court.
Bob Koehler
2017-02-07 14:14:09 UTC
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Post by John Reagan
Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Johnny Billquist
I think the law is not that relevant. The employment contract usually
covers such things anyway, and it normally says that the employer owns
whatever the person develops.
Never had an employment contract. What part of the word uses those?
Really? Didn't sign anything to begin employment? I had one with DEC/Digital/Compaq/HP. I have one with VSI. All the code I write, etc. does not belong to me.
I have signed forms acknowledging the employer's owenership. But
that's all they covered, not employment in general.
Bob Koehler
2017-02-07 18:00:46 UTC
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Post by Bob Koehler
Post by John Reagan
Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Johnny Billquist
I think the law is not that relevant. The employment contract usually
covers such things anyway, and it normally says that the employer owns
whatever the person develops.
Never had an employment contract. What part of the word uses those?
Really? Didn't sign anything to begin employment? I had one with DEC/Digital/Compaq/HP. I have one with VSI. All the code I write, etc. does not belong to me.
I have signed forms acknowledging the employer's owenership. But
that's all they covered, not employment in general.
Let me add, that was only two employers. For the rest, I never
signed anything except government tax withdrawl forms.
Johnny Billquist
2017-02-06 20:42:14 UTC
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Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Johnny Billquist
I think the law is not that relevant. The employment contract usually
covers such things anyway, and it normally says that the employer owns
whatever the person develops.
Never had an employment contract. What part of the word uses those?
You've never been employed?

Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: ***@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Bill Gunshannon
2017-02-07 13:49:57 UTC
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Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Johnny Billquist
I think the law is not that relevant. The employment contract usually
covers such things anyway, and it normally says that the employer owns
whatever the person develops.
Never had an employment contract. What part of the word uses those?
If you have ever had a job, you had an employment contract. Just
because, like most contracts, you never read it doesn't mean it
doesn't exist. It might have been called "The Employee's Handbook"
or something similar, but all work involves a contract between the
employer and the employee.

bill
seasoned_geek
2017-02-07 16:42:50 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
If you have ever had a job, you had an employment contract. Just
because, like most contracts, you never read it doesn't mean it
doesn't exist. It might have been called "The Employee's Handbook"
or something similar, but all work involves a contract between the
employer and the employee.
A contract requires it be signed by multiple parties. I did actually read the employee handbook. You know what it had in it. How to record your time. How vacation time was accrued and what forms to use to fill out health insurance claims. That was it. Thing was never signed by anyone. The only thing I signed there was a W-9.
Johnny Billquist
2017-02-13 22:56:33 UTC
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Post by seasoned_geek
Post by Bill Gunshannon
If you have ever had a job, you had an employment contract. Just
because, like most contracts, you never read it doesn't mean it
doesn't exist. It might have been called "The Employee's Handbook"
or something similar, but all work involves a contract between the
employer and the employee.
A contract requires it be signed by multiple parties. I did actually read the employee handbook. You know what it had in it. How to record your time. How vacation time was accrued and what forms to use to fill out health insurance claims. That was it. Thing was never signed by anyone. The only thing I signed there was a W-9.
I wonder why any of the companies paid you any money. Don't sound like
they ever signed any agreement saying they had to pay you anything then.

Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: ***@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
seasoned_geek
2017-02-06 21:28:07 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
Not to mention the fact that, at least under US law, the project
would then be the property of Google. Of course, that would only
matter if the project was a success. :-)
Success is in the marketing.

Let us not forget, the glue which is on the back of 3M Post-It notepads was a complete failure. They were trying to make a glue which dried so hard it made Krazy glue look like Elmur's school glue but they extended the drying time so much it never really gets dry. It wasn't until someone put it on the back of those little yellow squares that it became a success.

The Sony Walkman was 2 failed projects. The first was engineers trying to see how small they could make a cassette tape player. They forgot to leave enough room for the record hardware and thought nobody would buy it. The second was a group trying to make high quality super small headphones. Yes they were light weight, but they didn't have enough sound quality for home stereo use.

Failure is success which wasn't properly marketed.
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