Discussion:
x86-64 VMS LiveDVD/LiveUSB demo image, was: Re: VMS at 40 promotional material ?
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Simon Clubley
2017-04-29 20:29:33 UTC
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All my VMS systems at home are desktop systems. Not all are 25 years
old. But I suspect some future x86 running VMS will find itself with
a supported graphics card, someday.
VSI said that the on-chip graphics will be supported, which is probably
more powerful than the graphics card on the Alpha I am using to type
this in a DECterm running under CDE.
If VSI manage to get VMS to autoconfigure itself for the graphics
and general hardware environment on a x86-64 user's machine, then
I wouldn't mind seeing VSI produce a LiveDVD/LiveUSB image _once_
they have the initial versions of x86-64 VMS shipping.

From an end user's viewpoint, it would be a very low effort way to
have a look at this new thing they have just heard about called VMS.
A LiveDVD/LiveUSB image could be a good marketing tool in some
circumstances.

The licences might be a problem, but perhaps limited lifetime licences
could be loaded into the image and then the image regenerated with
new licences every (say) 90-120 days.

It would be _really_ good if you could optionally startup the LiveDVD
or LiveUSB image in such a way that you could easily get, say, three
different machines each running the image to join together to form
a shared everything cluster.

You would have to be careful to make sure the demo image didn't clobber
any of the user's existing disks, so if you allowed the image to write
to the physical disks in the machine, it would have to check to make
sure there were no existing, foreign to VMS, filesystems on the disks.

Of course, this being x86-64, there's no reason why an end user couldn't
simply attach a scratch disk/USB stick to a USB port and let the live
image use that.

Does anyone else think there's potential here for a LiveDVD/LiveUSB
image to be used as a VMS demo mechanism ?

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
David Froble
2017-04-30 00:40:51 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
All my VMS systems at home are desktop systems. Not all are 25 years
old. But I suspect some future x86 running VMS will find itself with
a supported graphics card, someday.
VSI said that the on-chip graphics will be supported, which is probably
more powerful than the graphics card on the Alpha I am using to type
this in a DECterm running under CDE.
If VSI manage to get VMS to autoconfigure itself for the graphics
and general hardware environment on a x86-64 user's machine, then
I wouldn't mind seeing VSI produce a LiveDVD/LiveUSB image _once_
they have the initial versions of x86-64 VMS shipping.
May I ask, what is a LiveDVD/LiveUSB ??????????????//
Post by Simon Clubley
From an end user's viewpoint, it would be a very low effort way to
have a look at this new thing they have just heard about called VMS.
A LiveDVD/LiveUSB image could be a good marketing tool in some
circumstances.
The licences might be a problem, but perhaps limited lifetime licences
could be loaded into the image and then the image regenerated with
new licences every (say) 90-120 days.
If VSI moves to a support revenue strategy, licenses won't matter. Actually,
the more VMS running in the wild is a good thing.
Post by Simon Clubley
It would be _really_ good if you could optionally startup the LiveDVD
or LiveUSB image in such a way that you could easily get, say, three
different machines each running the image to join together to form
a shared everything cluster.
You would have to be careful to make sure the demo image didn't clobber
any of the user's existing disks, so if you allowed the image to write
to the physical disks in the machine, it would have to check to make
sure there were no existing, foreign to VMS, filesystems on the disks.
VMS ain't weendoze that wants to "mark" a disk. If the disk can be mounted,
then it can be used, otherwise, VMS will not use the disk. MOUNT/FOREIGN is
another issue, but, just don't do it.
Post by Simon Clubley
Of course, this being x86-64, there's no reason why an end user couldn't
simply attach a scratch disk/USB stick to a USB port and let the live
image use that.
Does anyone else think there's potential here for a LiveDVD/LiveUSB
image to be used as a VMS demo mechanism ?
See question about what kind of beast that is ....
Arne Vajhøj
2017-04-30 01:09:48 UTC
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Post by David Froble
Post by Simon Clubley
If VSI manage to get VMS to autoconfigure itself for the graphics
and general hardware environment on a x86-64 user's machine, then
I wouldn't mind seeing VSI produce a LiveDVD/LiveUSB image _once_
they have the initial versions of x86-64 VMS shipping.
May I ask, what is a LiveDVD/LiveUSB ??????????????//
A DVD/USB-stick that you can boot a fully working OS from.

Often offering the ability to install on local harddrive
in case the user likes what he sees.

Arne
IanD
2017-04-30 01:16:12 UTC
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On Sunday, April 30, 2017 at 10:40:54 AM UTC+10, David Froble wrote:

<snip>
Post by David Froble
May I ask, what is a LiveDVD/LiveUSB ??????????????//
I was going to write something but then I remembered Ubuntu used to do a livedvd

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCD

I'm not sure they still do this however as I have not played with a live version for a long time
Post by David Froble
If VSI moves to a support revenue strategy, licenses won't matter. Actually,
the more VMS running in the wild is a good thing.
+100 to this

The more VMS is out there, the more people might play with it and perhaps get interested in it

Linux has been adopted everywhere because people could easily get hold of it and then they adapted it to their needs / environment

The caveat to this is that people (developers) want to feel part of something. People are moving on from being task driven robots to principal driven beings, that to me is why open source has grown so much. Its not so much the free element about it as the ethos driving the projects. This is why I harp on so much about open source :-)
Post by David Froble
VMS ain't weendoze that wants to "mark" a disk. If the disk can be mounted,
then it can be used, otherwise, VMS will not use the disk. MOUNT/FOREIGN is
another issue, but, just don't do it.
Skip this altogether and create it as a VM machine image and you can keep the two worlds apart

You can then also run VMS while your winblows system is running
IanD
2017-04-30 00:58:17 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
If VSI manage to get VMS to autoconfigure itself for the graphics
and general hardware environment on a x86-64 user's machine, then
I wouldn't mind seeing VSI produce a LiveDVD/LiveUSB image _once_
they have the initial versions of x86-64 VMS shipping.
Its an excellent way to get a quick play with something and to kick the tyres
Post by Simon Clubley
From an end user's viewpoint, it would be a very low effort way to
have a look at this new thing they have just heard about called VMS.
A LiveDVD/LiveUSB image could be a good marketing tool in some
circumstances.
Bootable usb is often accomplished by burning the ISO with something like rufus but I don't know if it has smarts that adds extras depending on the OS to the usb
Post by Simon Clubley
The licences might be a problem, but perhaps limited lifetime licences
could be loaded into the image and then the image regenerated with
new licences every (say) 90-120 days.
It would be _really_ good if you could optionally startup the LiveDVD
or LiveUSB image in such a way that you could easily get, say, three
different machines each running the image to join together to form
a shared everything cluster.
Distribute as a VM machine image. Most VM's can mount each others VM disk format so pick say VMware and people can download VM Player and then point it at the disk image and start it

You could distribute standalone, small cluster etc and have licenses timeout after a certain end-date

i.e. Download VM image xyz which has license expiry date of abc

VSI then only need to create the next machine image and could then dispense with mucking around giving out licenses for each and every person (although I do like the Hobbyist program and don't want to see that gone)
Post by Simon Clubley
You would have to be careful to make sure the demo image didn't clobber
any of the user's existing disks, so if you allowed the image to write
to the physical disks in the machine, it would have to check to make
sure there were no existing, foreign to VMS, filesystems on the disks.
A machine images doesn't have this problem
Post by Simon Clubley
Of course, this being x86-64, there's no reason why an end user couldn't
simply attach a scratch disk/USB stick to a USB port and let the live
image use that.
Does anyone else think there's potential here for a LiveDVD/LiveUSB
image to be used as a VMS demo mechanism ?
Simon.
--
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
+100 to this idea
Stephen Hoffman
2017-04-30 23:15:28 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
Does anyone else think there's potential here for a LiveDVD/LiveUSB
image to be used as a VMS demo mechanism ?
Boot the DVD distro, drop to the $$$ prompt, party.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
Simon Clubley
2017-05-02 17:19:07 UTC
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Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Simon Clubley
Does anyone else think there's potential here for a LiveDVD/LiveUSB
image to be used as a VMS demo mechanism ?
Boot the DVD distro, drop to the $$$ prompt, party.
I think there's a bit more functionality expected in a live image than
what you get from the $$$ prompt. :-)

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
David Froble
2017-05-02 19:34:40 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Simon Clubley
Does anyone else think there's potential here for a LiveDVD/LiveUSB
image to be used as a VMS demo mechanism ?
Boot the DVD distro, drop to the $$$ prompt, party.
I think there's a bit more functionality expected in a live image than
what you get from the $$$ prompt. :-)
Simon.
Such as ??
Simon Clubley
2017-05-02 19:45:12 UTC
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Post by David Froble
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Simon Clubley
Does anyone else think there's potential here for a LiveDVD/LiveUSB
image to be used as a VMS demo mechanism ?
Boot the DVD distro, drop to the $$$ prompt, party.
I think there's a bit more functionality expected in a live image than
what you get from the $$$ prompt. :-)
Such as ??
David, look at a Linux live image distribution and you will understand.

Oh, and if you want a terminal session, try clicking on the icon at
the bottom that looks like a terminal or try right clicking on an
empty space on the desktop and see if there's an "Open Terminal"
option or similar.

Also, try walking through the program launcher menus to see the
list of applications shipped with the Linux live image.

However, for the short version, in a VMS live image you would expect
to see pretty much the all of VMS working, including a GUI (and the
applications shipped with the GUI), networking, clustering and the
queue manager all running.

I would also expect to see a good range of working layered products
on the live image as well.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
Paul Sture
2017-05-03 01:24:32 UTC
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On 2017-05-02, Simon Clubley <***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:

<snip>
Post by Simon Clubley
However, for the short version, in a VMS live image you would expect
to see pretty much the all of VMS working, including a GUI (and the
applications shipped with the GUI), networking, clustering and the
queue manager all running.
What we are headed towards here is a downloadable Vagrant image.

One that includes say 3 virtual systems configured to work together as
a cluster.

See the following for an example of Vagrant image which contains 3
Ubuntu machines running Saltstack:

<https://github.com/UtahDave/salt-vagrant-demo#instructions>

With the prerequisites of Git, VirtualBox and Vagrant...

Four commands get you up and running:

git clone https://github.com/UtahDave/salt-vagrant-demo.git
cd salt-vagrant-demo
vagrant plugin install vagrant-vbguest
vagrant up

"This will download an Ubuntu VirtualBox image and create three virtual
machines for you. One will be a Salt Master named master and two will be
Salt Minions named minion1 and minion2. The Salt Minions will point to
the Salt Master and the Minion's keys will already be accepted. Because
the keys are pre-generated and reside in the repo, please be sure to
regenerate new keys if you use this for production purposes."
Post by Simon Clubley
I would also expect to see a good range of working layered products
on the live image as well.
There is an easy to follow tutorial that goes with the above Vagrant
demo, but yes, something of a guided tour to get folks started with
poking around any layered products included.


P.S. At some point in the past I had a minor rant here in comp.os.vms
about Vagrant restarting from scratch in the event of a download
failure. That's now fixed and when restarting after a download failure,
it simply picks up from where it left off.
--
Everybody has a testing environment. Some people are lucky enough to
have a totally separate environment to run production in.
Bill Gunshannon
2017-05-02 22:30:02 UTC
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Post by David Froble
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Simon Clubley
Does anyone else think there's potential here for a LiveDVD/LiveUSB
image to be used as a VMS demo mechanism ?
Boot the DVD distro, drop to the $$$ prompt, party.
I think there's a bit more functionality expected in a live image than
what you get from the $$$ prompt. :-)
Simon.
Such as ??
Practical applications. No user buys an OS.

bill
Stephen Hoffman
2017-05-03 15:19:46 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Simon Clubley
Does anyone else think there's potential here for a LiveDVD/LiveUSB
image to be used as a VMS demo mechanism ?
Boot the DVD distro, drop to the $$$ prompt, party.
I think there's a bit more functionality expected in a live image than
what you get from the $$$ prompt. :-)
Okay, then "...party like it's 1999"?

I'm well aware of what live images can do — was just booting macOS via
USB a few days ago, and routinely use BSD that way — but OpenVMS itself
needs a whole lot more work before it's a compelling choice and all
that's before getting to a live image or an internet boot of the box.
Not the least of which is sorting out the installation sequence and the
packaging, which is currently a wonderful time capsule of the 1980s era
of computing user interfaces, and of the then-current trade-offs, and
of the then-current business practices and norms. VSI is seemingly
making some very positive changes here, too.

Then there are the usual sorts of discussions of packaging and
integration, whether it's the still-packaged-as-an-add-on VSI IP, or
some subset of the compilers, or other giblets. No idea what VSI has
in mind here, but I'd assume and expect minimal changes here prior to
the port shipping, outside of some of the positive licensing and
business practices changes that have been made.

There were some discussions a while back around generating a
hobbyist-focused distro akin to a live image and the factory-installed
OpenVMS image, but that'd require the permission of VSI and some
wrangling. That's probably the closest to the live image approach, and
the effort involved there can ranges from a week or two to... ongoing
and infinite. At least for experimentation, have at. Most of the
effort here likely involves getting from LPs to the final image
repeatably and easily, and of testing it all across a mix of
configurations. (I was recently pondering designs for app sandboxing,
but that's far past a live image...)
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
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