Discussion:
What is setting the time
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t***@gmail.com
2017-01-23 12:26:00 UTC
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Hi,

I've not logged onto OpenVMS in about a decade so please bear with me.

We have a Itanium based OpenVMS where the time is approx 2 minutes behind the actual time. Can anyone give advice on how to check where this time is being sync'ed from and how to modify it it's wrong.

I can run SYS$SYSTEM:NCP but I'm not sure what to look at in this utility?

Thanks
V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
2017-01-23 12:42:40 UTC
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Post by t***@gmail.com
Hi,
I've not logged onto OpenVMS in about a decade so please bear with me.
We have a Itanium based OpenVMS where the time is approx 2 minutes behind the actual time. Can anyone give advice on how to check where this time is being sync'ed from and how to modify it it's wrong.
I can run SYS$SYSTEM:NCP but I'm not sure what to look at in this utility?
Thanks
Is TCP/IP installed?
Is NTP configured? and running?
Is the Itanium able to access NTP servers on the internet?
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t***@gmail.com
2017-01-23 13:34:26 UTC
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Is TCP/IP installed?
Is NTP configured? and running?
Is the Itanium able to access NTP servers on the internet?
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VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
$SHOW NET lists DECNET and TCP/IP running. I don't think NTP is running, help NTP does not work and there's no .exe in sys$system that is anything like that.

How can I tell if NTP is installed.
Steven Schweda
2017-01-23 13:43:49 UTC
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Is TCP/IP installed?
tcpip show version
Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
Apologies that should read NTP
It should? Around here:

ALP $ run SYS$SYSTEM:NTP
%DCL-W-ACTIMAGE, error activating image SYS$SYSTEM:NTP
-CLI-E-IMAGEFNF, image file not found
ALP$DKC0:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.][SYSEXE]NTP.EXE;
Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
How can I tell if NTP is installed.
You might start with:

@ sys$manager:TCPIP$CONFIG.COM

and look at "Server components".

As usual, showing actual commands with their actual output
can be more helpful than vague descriptions or
interpretations. Copy+paste is our friend.
t***@gmail.com
2017-01-23 14:20:53 UTC
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Is TCP/IP installed?
tcpip show version
Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
Apologies that should read NTP
ALP $ run SYS$SYSTEM:NTP
%DCL-W-ACTIMAGE, error activating image SYS$SYSTEM:NTP
-CLI-E-IMAGEFNF, image file not found
ALP$DKC0:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.][SYSEXE]NTP.EXE;
Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
How can I tell if NTP is installed.
@ sys$manager:TCPIP$CONFIG.COM
and look at "Server components".
As usual, showing actual commands with their actual output
can be more helpful than vague descriptions or
interpretations. Copy+paste is our friend.
Hi,
Not seeing any "Server Components" but here is a list of the services running and also the version.

I take it NTP is not configured/running?

$ show net

Product: DECNET Node: HBG1 Address(es): 1.401
Product: TCP/IP Node: hbg1 Address(es): 10.1.49.54
$
TCPIP> show version

HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Industry Standard 64 Version V5.7 - ECO 4
on an HP Integrity rx2800 i2 (1.60GHz/5.0MB) running OpenVMS V8.4

$ @sys$manager:tcpip$config.com

TCPIP> show service

Service Port Proto Process Address State

BIND 53 TCP,UDP TCPIP$BIND 0.0.0.0 Disabled
FTP 21 TCP TCPIP$FTP 0.0.0.0 Enabled
REXEC 512 TCP TCPIP$REXEC 0.0.0.0 Enabled
RSH 514 TCP TCPIP$RSH 0.0.0.0 Enabled
SMTP 25 TCP TCPIP$SMTP 0.0.0.0 Enabled
TELNET 23 TCP not defined 0.0.0.0 Enabled
TCPIP>
t***@gmail.com
2017-01-23 14:38:57 UTC
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Also this does not look promising.


TCPIP> show config time

TIME configuration

Value: not defined
Differential: not defined
j***@yahoo.co.uk
2017-01-23 16:03:49 UTC
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Post by t***@gmail.com
Also this does not look promising.
TCPIP> show config time
TIME configuration
Value: not defined
Differential: not defined
Before going into details of network staks etc, might it be
helpful to describe the problem in more detail?

E.g. Is the IA64box time *always* 2 minutes wrong?
(e.g. early in the OS startup process before the
full OS and network is running, was/is the time
correct?)

Once the full OS and network is up and running, are
you able to try to correct the time using the
usual VMS commands? If you try this, what happens?

Is there a particular reason you're expecting NTP
to be involved in this picture?

[And doubtless more]
V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
2017-01-23 16:39:31 UTC
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Post by t***@gmail.com
Also this does not look promising.
TCPIP> show config time
TIME configuration
Value: not defined
Differential: not defined
OK. If you are expecting NTP to maintain your system's time, you'll need to
enable and start it.

Check in SYS$SPECIFIC:[TCPIP$NTP] for a TCPIP$NTP.CONF or TCPIP$NTP.TEMPLATE.
Of the .CONF doesn't exist, edit the TCPIP$NTP.TEMPLATE, supply your server(s)
addresses and other parameters, and save the file as TCPIP$NTP.CONF.

Then, configure and start NTP.

$ @SYS$STARTUP:TCPIP$CONFIG

Select:

3 - Server components

... and then the value for NTP configuration. The menus should walk through
everything else you need.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
Roy Omond
2017-01-23 17:12:36 UTC
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Also this does not look promising.
TCPIP> show config time
TIME configuration
Value: not defined
Differential: not defined
OK. If you are expecting NTP to maintain your system's time, you'll need to
enable and start it.
Check in SYS$SPECIFIC:[TCPIP$NTP] for a TCPIP$NTP.CONF or TCPIP$NTP.TEMPLATE.
Of the .CONF doesn't exist, edit the TCPIP$NTP.TEMPLATE, supply your server(s)
addresses and other parameters, and save the file as TCPIP$NTP.CONF.
Then, configure and start NTP.
3 - Server components
... and then the value for NTP configuration. The menus should walk through
everything else you need.
Hi thedavegray (are you the Dave Gray known to me ?),

if you're in the UK, you can use these NTP servers:

http://www.pool.ntp.org/pt/zone/uk

If not, then see http://www.pool.ntp.org/en/

If you *are* that Dave Gray, then hi!
t***@gmail.com
2017-01-24 13:43:31 UTC
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Post by Roy Omond
Hi thedavegray (are you the Dave Gray known to me ?),
http://www.pool.ntp.org/pt/zone/uk
If not, then see http://www.pool.ntp.org/en/
If you *are* that Dave Gray, then hi!
Hello Roy, long time no hear, how's things?
Yes I'm back in the UK after another stint in Munich. This server is in London so I will use the time servers you mention. You should give the Biggleswade crew a call, doubt they've had a VMS healthcheck since you last did it all those years ago.

Cheers
t***@gmail.com
2017-01-24 13:58:33 UTC
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Post by t***@gmail.com
TCPIP> show config time
TIME configuration
Value: not defined
Differential: not defined
OK. If you are expecting NTP to maintain your system's time, you'll need to
enable and start it.
Check in SYS$SPECIFIC:[TCPIP$NTP] for a TCPIP$NTP.CONF or TCPIP$NTP.TEMPLATE.
Of the .CONF doesn't exist, edit the TCPIP$NTP.TEMPLATE, supply your server(s)
addresses and other parameters, and save the file as TCPIP$NTP.CONF.
Then, configure and start NTP.
3 - Server components
... and then the value for NTP configuration. The menus should walk through
everything else you need.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
Thanks for the info.
V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
2017-01-24 14:43:12 UTC
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Post by t***@gmail.com
TCPIP> show config time
TIME configuration
Value: not defined
Differential: not defined
OK. If you are expecting NTP to maintain your system's time, you'll need to
enable and start it.
Check in SYS$SPECIFIC:[TCPIP$NTP] for a TCPIP$NTP.CONF or TCPIP$NTP.TEMPLATE.
Of the .CONF doesn't exist, edit the TCPIP$NTP.TEMPLATE, supply your server(s)
addresses and other parameters, and save the file as TCPIP$NTP.CONF.
Then, configure and start NTP.
3 - Server components
... and then the value for NTP configuration. The menus should walk through
everything else you need.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
Thanks for the info.
Welcome! Do let us know if/when you've sorted this out.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
t***@gmail.com
2017-01-25 14:39:29 UTC
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Post by t***@gmail.com
TCPIP> show config time
TIME configuration
Value: not defined
Differential: not defined
OK. If you are expecting NTP to maintain your system's time, you'll need to
enable and start it.
Check in SYS$SPECIFIC:[TCPIP$NTP] for a TCPIP$NTP.CONF or TCPIP$NTP.TEMPLATE.
Of the .CONF doesn't exist, edit the TCPIP$NTP.TEMPLATE, supply your server(s)
addresses and other parameters, and save the file as TCPIP$NTP.CONF.
Then, configure and start NTP.
3 - Server components
... and then the value for NTP configuration. The menus should walk through
everything else you need.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
Thanks for the info.
Welcome! Do let us know if/when you've sorted this out.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
Hi,
I'm not seeing any anything in sys$specific although here is a dir listing to match that pattern.

$ dir sys$specific:[000000...]tcpip$ntp.*

Directory SYS$SPECIFIC:[000000.SYSCOMMON.SYSEXE]

TCPIP$NTP.EXE;1 2593 7-SEP-2012 18:28:12.09

Total of 1 file, 2593 blocks.
$

No templates or config files. My account is system so should be able to see everything.
Hans Bachner
2017-01-25 15:10:08 UTC
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[...]
Check in SYS$SPECIFIC:[TCPIP$NTP] for a TCPIP$NTP.CONF or TCPIP$NTP.TEMPLATE.
Of the .CONF doesn't exist, edit the TCPIP$NTP.TEMPLATE, supply your server(s)
addresses and other parameters, and save the file as TCPIP$NTP.CONF.
Then, configure and start NTP.
[...]
Hi,
I'm not seeing any anything in sys$specific although here is a dir listing to match that pattern.
$ dir sys$specific:[000000...]tcpip$ntp.*
Directory SYS$SPECIFIC:[000000.SYSCOMMON.SYSEXE]
TCPIP$NTP.EXE;1 2593 7-SEP-2012 18:28:12.09
Total of 1 file, 2593 blocks.
$
No templates or config files. My account is system so should be able to see everything.
You may have missed the lines I left from the full quote above...

Hope this helps,
Hans.
David Froble
2017-01-25 16:58:42 UTC
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Post by t***@gmail.com
TCPIP> show config time
TIME configuration
Value: not defined
Differential: not defined
OK. If you are expecting NTP to maintain your system's time, you'll need to
enable and start it.
Check in SYS$SPECIFIC:[TCPIP$NTP] for a TCPIP$NTP.CONF or TCPIP$NTP.TEMPLATE.
Of the .CONF doesn't exist, edit the TCPIP$NTP.TEMPLATE, supply your server(s)
addresses and other parameters, and save the file as TCPIP$NTP.CONF.
Then, configure and start NTP.
3 - Server components
... and then the value for NTP configuration. The menus should walk through
everything else you need.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
Thanks for the info.
Welcome! Do let us know if/when you've sorted this out.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
Hi,
I'm not seeing any anything in sys$specific although here is a dir listing to match that pattern.
$ dir sys$specific:[000000...]tcpip$ntp.*
Directory SYS$SPECIFIC:[000000.SYSCOMMON.SYSEXE]
TCPIP$NTP.EXE;1 2593 7-SEP-2012 18:28:12.09
Total of 1 file, 2593 blocks.
$
No templates or config files. My account is system so should be able to see everything.
You have not used SYS$MANAGER:TCPIP$CONFIG.COM to enable NTP. The first time
you do so, it will create the directory and files, if my feeble memory is correct.

You're looking for something that will not exist until you follow Brian's
instructions.
Stephen Hoffman
2017-01-25 17:34:34 UTC
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TCPIP> show config time
TIME configuration
Value: not defined
Differential: not defined
OK. If you are expecting NTP to maintain your system's time, you'll need to
enable and start it.
Check in SYS$SPECIFIC:[TCPIP$NTP] for a TCPIP$NTP.CONF or TCPIP$NTP.TEMPLATE.
Of the .CONF doesn't exist, edit the TCPIP$NTP.TEMPLATE, supply your server(s)
addresses and other parameters, and save the file as TCPIP$NTP.CONF.
Then, configure and start NTP.
3 - Server components
... and then the value for NTP configuration. The menus should walk through
everything else you need.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
Thanks for the info.
Welcome! Do let us know if/when you've sorted this out.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
Hi,
I'm not seeing any anything in sys$specific although here is a dir
listing to match that pattern.
$ dir sys$specific:[000000...]tcpip$ntp.*
Directory SYS$SPECIFIC:[000000.SYSCOMMON.SYSEXE]
TCPIP$NTP.EXE;1 2593 7-SEP-2012 18:28:12.09
Total of 1 file, 2593 blocks.
$
No templates or config files. My account is system so should be able to see everything.
That means that you're likely not using NTP. This because it's the
configuration @SYS$STARTUP:TCPIP$CONFIG tool that creates those
templates, and if you don't have the templates, then this is either a
very old implementation or NTP is not configured and enabled.

Rather than all of this fodder, have you tried the SET TIME command?
Post by t***@gmail.com
SET
TIME
Resets the system clock, which is used as a timer to record
intervals between various internal events and as a source clock
for displaying the time of day.
Requires both OPER (operator) and LOG_IO (logical I/O)
privileges.
Format
SET TIME[=time]
Parameter Description Qualifier
/CLUSTER
Examples
SET TIME Subtopic?
The above text is from the HELP text.

SET PROCESS/PRIV=(OPER,LOG_IO)
SET TIME=dd-mmm-yyyy:hh:mm

If you get an error from the SET PROCESS /PRIV or the SET TIME
commands, please post the full text.

If you have the necessary privileges enabled and there are no errors
from the SET TIME command, then the system time will be reset to the
specified value. If there are no errors referencing another time
source — NTP or DEC DTSS DECdtss most commonly — then you're not
running any other synchronization service, and the system time has
simply drifted. If there is another source for the time — NTP or DEC
DTSS / DECdtss, most commonly — then it's that mechanism that will need
a look.

If you are not presently running NTP — and it would appear you are not,
though it's remotely possible there's an old UCX-labeled configuration
still in use — and if you want to use NTP, then follow the instructions
you've been given. That is, invoke the configuration
@SYS$STARTUP:TCPIP$CONFIG tool, and enable the NTP server, and which
will create the templates, and which you will then manually edit for
your local network.
--
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t***@gmail.com
2017-01-26 13:33:51 UTC
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Post by Stephen Hoffman
That means that you're likely not using NTP. This because it's the
templates, and if you don't have the templates, then this is either a
very old implementation or NTP is not configured and enabled.
Rather than all of this fodder, have you tried the SET TIME command?
Post by t***@gmail.com
SET
TIME
Resets the system clock, which is used as a timer to record
intervals between various internal events and as a source clock
for displaying the time of day.
Requires both OPER (operator) and LOG_IO (logical I/O)
privileges.
Format
SET TIME[=time]
Parameter Description Qualifier
/CLUSTER
Examples
SET TIME Subtopic?
The above text is from the HELP text.
SET PROCESS/PRIV=(OPER,LOG_IO)
SET TIME=dd-mmm-yyyy:hh:mm
If you get an error from the SET PROCESS /PRIV or the SET TIME
commands, please post the full text.
If you have the necessary privileges enabled and there are no errors
from the SET TIME command, then the system time will be reset to the
specified value. If there are no errors referencing another time
source — NTP or DEC DTSS DECdtss most commonly — then you're not
running any other synchronization service, and the system time has
simply drifted. If there is another source for the time — NTP or DEC
DTSS / DECdtss, most commonly — then it's that mechanism that will need
a look.
If you are not presently running NTP — and it would appear you are not,
though it's remotely possible there's an old UCX-labeled configuration
still in use — and if you want to use NTP, then follow the instructions
you've been given. That is, invoke the configuration
@SYS$STARTUP:TCPIP$CONFIG tool, and enable the NTP server, and which
will create the templates, and which you will then manually edit for
your local network.
Ok thanks for the info. I understand that the time has been manually set before but seems to drift quite quickly, is this likely to be a hardward fault?

Will test out your other suggestions and post back here.

Cheers
Stephen Hoffman
2017-01-28 22:43:38 UTC
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I uderstand that the time has been manually set before but seems to
drift quite quickly, is this likely to be a hardward fault?
An OpenVMS computer is not generally expected to manage clock time in
software to the same accuracy of a temperature-stabilized (your arm)
quartz crystal chronometer, or some other equivalent or better timebase.

Other computer operating systems tend to drift, too.

Many operating systems — including OpenVMS — load the system clock from
the hardware at boot, but only rarely reference the clock later. Most
— including OpenVMS — use timer interrupts to maintain the system
clock, and it's possible for these interrupts to be blocked or
otherwise lost. Leading to skews. High IPL activity can do this on
OpenVMS, for instance.

That's why there are tools to synch the time.

When we all set the system time from wristwatches (and not cellphones),
this skew was often much more common.

TL;DR: If you're only off by a couple of minutes, that's pretty good
for many of the free-running OpenVMS systems around.
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Dirk Munk
2017-01-24 17:38:22 UTC
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Post by t***@gmail.com
Also this does not look promising.
TCPIP> show config time
TIME configuration
Value: not defined
Differential: not defined
OK. If you are expecting NTP to maintain your system's time, you'll need to
enable and start it.
Check in SYS$SPECIFIC:[TCPIP$NTP] for a TCPIP$NTP.CONF or TCPIP$NTP.TEMPLATE.
Of the .CONF doesn't exist, edit the TCPIP$NTP.TEMPLATE, supply your server(s)
addresses and other parameters, and save the file as TCPIP$NTP.CONF.
Then, configure and start NTP.
3 - Server components
... and then the value for NTP configuration. The menus should walk through
everything else you need.
If the system is running DECnet Plus, then you have to disable the
DECnet time server DTSS.

There is a logical that you have to set to achieve that, something like
DTSSdisable or so.

try this:

MC ncl
NCL>show

If you get a meaningful response, then DECnet Plus is active.
Paul Sture
2017-01-23 18:51:09 UTC
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Post by t***@gmail.com
Also this does not look promising.
TCPIP> show config time
TIME configuration
Value: not defined
Differential: not defined
What version of DECnet are you running?

Please post the output of this command:

$ write sys$output f$getsyi("DECNET_VERSION")
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t***@gmail.com
2017-01-25 15:18:19 UTC
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Post by Paul Sture
What version of DECnet are you running?
$ write sys$output f$getsyi("DECNET_VERSION")
it's 00040000
Hans Bachner
2017-01-25 17:00:50 UTC
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Post by Paul Sture
What version of DECnet are you running?
$ write sys$output f$getsyi("DECNET_VERSION")
it's 00040000
Ok, this is DECnet Phase IV and you need not care about DTSS. NTP is
your only choice (out of the box) for time synchronisation.

Hans.
Steven Schweda
2017-01-23 19:03:44 UTC
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TCPIP> show service
Eh? SYS$MANAGER:TCPIP$CONFIG.COM is a menu-driven DCL
script. It should not lead to a "TCPIP>" prompt.
Post by t***@gmail.com
$ write sys$output f$getsyi("DECNET_VERSION")
Yeah. If you're running DECnet-Plus, then:

mcr ncl show implementation

should be easier to interpret.
t***@gmail.com
2017-01-23 13:28:25 UTC
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Post by t***@gmail.com
Hi,
I've not logged onto OpenVMS in about a decade so please bear with me.
We have a Itanium based OpenVMS where the time is approx 2 minutes behind the actual time. Can anyone give advice on how to check where this time is being sync'ed from and how to modify it it's wrong.
I can run SYS$SYSTEM:NCP but I'm not sure what to look at in this utility?
Thanks
Apologies that should read NTP
Bob Koehler
2017-01-23 14:16:23 UTC
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Hi,
I've not logged onto OpenVMS in about a decade so please bear with me.
We have a Itanium based OpenVMS where the time is approx 2 minutes behind the actual time. Can anyone give advice on how to check where this time is being sync'ed from and how to modify it it's wrong.
I can run SYS$SYSTEM:NCP but I'm not sure what to look at in this utility?
First, we'll have to know what networks stack is running. Different
stacks keep this information in different places.

Finding your network stack is, I think, in the FAQ. But I'm not
really sure where the FAQ is now.
Stephen Hoffman
2017-01-24 18:34:33 UTC
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Post by t***@gmail.com
Hi,
I've not logged onto OpenVMS in about a decade so please bear with me.
We have a Itanium based OpenVMS where the time is approx 2 minutes
behind the actual time. Can anyone give advice on how to check where
this time is being sync'ed from and how to modify it it's wrong.
I can run SYS$SYSTEM:NCP but I'm not sure what to look at in this utility?
Thanks
This whole thread is a wonderful example of where the OpenVMS
documentation and the system management user interface and the
implementation needs work.

Timekeeping is a common source of sometimes-subtle bugs and fodder for
broken assumptions and odd and often entirely unexpected — but correct
— behaviors, even when it all works right. But OpenVMS time
synchronization has to work better, has to be better integrated, and
has to require much less administrative overhead to get an OpenVMS
server configured and working and synchronized.

The documentation for a basic operating system function — timekeeping
and synchronization with a local or Internet time-base — is scattered
all over the place, between the base doc and the
still-inexplicably-unintegrated IP networking and the
why-are-these-products-still-around DECnet documentation, and related
bits around timezones and timekeeping and proper use of same are
scattered further afield between patch notes and the C Utilities Manual
— yes, there's a separate manual for utilities for C, though those same
utilities are now used for most of OpenVMS, and the DECdtss API
documentation that's now part of the OpenVMS doc set.

This ignores discussions around software updates and timezone updates
and any discussions of security or integrity in these areas. There
are more than a few NTP CVEs, after all. And it's not like proper
timekeeping isn't security-relevant, and isn't fundamentally part of
certificate authentication.

This also ignores the obvious discussions around the need for
simplification of this morass; of having reasonable defaults for the
NTP servers, around integration and simplification of IP in OpenVMS,
and of not having to find and manually edit text-based configuration
files to establish what is an absolutely fundamental operating system
function.

There are always trade-offs inherent in the various design approaches
available, of course. Trade-offs around compatibility versus design
simplicity and ease of use versus design and coding effort versus user
effort versus risks of making changes, too. TANSTAAFL.

Maybe now some of you might better understand why other folks might not
share the same opinion of OpenVMS that's common among many folks here
in the comp.os.vms newsgroup?
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
David Froble
2017-01-24 21:03:25 UTC
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Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by t***@gmail.com
Hi,
I've not logged onto OpenVMS in about a decade so please bear with me.
We have a Itanium based OpenVMS where the time is approx 2 minutes
behind the actual time. Can anyone give advice on how to check where
this time is being sync'ed from and how to modify it it's wrong.
I can run SYS$SYSTEM:NCP but I'm not sure what to look at in this utility?
Thanks
This whole thread is a wonderful example of where the OpenVMS
documentation and the system management user interface and the
implementation needs work.
I was thinking the same thing, and just waiting for your inevitable comments.

This stuff should "just be there", with perhaps the option of turning it off ..
Paul Anderson
2017-01-25 19:27:44 UTC
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Post by Stephen Hoffman
Timekeeping is a common source of sometimes-subtle bugs and fodder for
broken assumptions and odd and often entirely unexpected — but correct
— behaviors, even when it all works right. But OpenVMS time
synchronization has to work better, has to be better integrated, and has
to require much less administrative overhead to get an OpenVMS server
configured and working and synchronized.
Agree. And noted.

Paul Anderson
VMS Software, Inc.
Michael Moroney
2017-01-26 03:37:54 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Paul Anderson
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Timekeeping is a common source of sometimes-subtle bugs and fodder for
broken assumptions and odd and often entirely unexpected — but correct
— behaviors, even when it all works right. But OpenVMS time
synchronization has to work better, has to be better integrated, and has
to require much less administrative overhead to get an OpenVMS server
configured and working and synchronized.
Agree. And noted.
Paul Anderson
VMS Software, Inc.
My own concepts of two design flaws for VMS time:

1) (quite minor) The base date should have been the first date that the
Gregorian calendar was used anywhere, not 1858. Or at least the date that
the Gregorian calendar went into effect in England and her colonies
(including the future US). Would have allowed VMS to properly express
dates earlier than 1858.

2) The base time should be UTC, with an offset automatically added in for
expressing time in your local time zone. DST would be put into effect
simply by changing the offset, not by changing the system clock which
often does bad things, especially when setting the clock back.
Dirk Munk
2017-01-26 14:25:57 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Michael Moroney
Post by Paul Anderson
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Timekeeping is a common source of sometimes-subtle bugs and fodder for
broken assumptions and odd and often entirely unexpected — but correct
— behaviors, even when it all works right. But OpenVMS time
synchronization has to work better, has to be better integrated, and has
to require much less administrative overhead to get an OpenVMS server
configured and working and synchronized.
Agree. And noted.
Paul Anderson
VMS Software, Inc.
1) (quite minor) The base date should have been the first date that the
Gregorian calendar was used anywhere, not 1858. Or at least the date that
the Gregorian calendar went into effect in England and her colonies
(including the future US). Would have allowed VMS to properly express
dates earlier than 1858.
This wonderful document may shed some light on this:

http://www.slac.stanford.edu/~rkj/crazytime.txt

Also, if I'm not mistaken, in the past it happened that days were
skipped in the calender for some reason.
Post by Michael Moroney
2) The base time should be UTC, with an offset automatically added in for
expressing time in your local time zone. DST would be put into effect
simply by changing the offset, not by changing the system clock which
often does bad things, especially when setting the clock back.
Very true, if VSI can find a way to correct this in OpenVMS 9.0, that
would be great.
Neil Rieck
2017-01-24 21:33:44 UTC
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My own two 2-cents.

There are a lot of reasons why you should not have a continually running NTP process on your server but the reality of the situation is this: most computer systems do not need that amount of accuracy.

First off, check the docs for your TCP stack and learn how to run NTPDATE.

This is how I do it with the MultiNet Stack

$ ntpdate :== "mu ntpdate"
$ ntpdate -bv time.nrc.ca tick.utoronto.ca

ps1: the second destination is only used if the first one is down
ps2: use an NTP service closer to your client machine
ps3: many ISP's provide NTP from their DNS machines (try it)

If this works to your satisfaction, place these two lines in a DCL script that will be run from queue sys$batch. Before the script exits, have it resubmit itself 24 hours from now (or at 1 AM tomorrow)

Neil Rieck
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/
Steven Schweda
2017-01-26 19:00:42 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Neil Rieck
There are a lot of reasons why you should not have a
continually running NTP process on your server [...]
Name six?
Post by Neil Rieck
[...] most computer systems do not need that amount of
accuracy.
What are the ill effects of having more precise
timekeeping?
David Froble
2017-01-26 21:10:40 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Steven Schweda
Post by Neil Rieck
There are a lot of reasons why you should not have a
continually running NTP process on your server [...]
Name six?
Uh .... no .... cannot ....

:-)
Post by Steven Schweda
Post by Neil Rieck
[...] most computer systems do not need that amount of
accuracy.
Very true.
Post by Steven Schweda
What are the ill effects of having more precise
timekeeping?
I can imagine the perceived, or real, benefit of running something you trust, on
your own schedule, to get the time and then go away. Rather than something
sitting there all the time and perhaps being subject to something finding it and
perhaps doing something nefarious.

This is not an "ill effect" of more precise timekeeping, this is the "ill
effect" of a possible point of intrusion.

That mentioned, I run the NTP service. Perhaps I'm just a bit lazy.
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