Discussion:
SYS$MKDRIVER not loading on OpenVMS 8.4 on Alphastation XP1000
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Slo
2017-01-23 17:52:13 UTC
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I'm running into the same SYS$MKDRIVER problem
raised years ago in this and other posts:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/comp.os.vms/sys$24mkdriver/comp.os.vms/zs2p53UWAEE/Gxy0V5CGnVcJ

This is on a V8.4 hobbyist system (Alphastation XP1000).
My TLZ07 shows in >>>show device as MKB500,
but not once the system boots.

I've tried all the MCR SYSMAN IO ... commands to load the driver
and $SHOW DEVICE MK shows the device. However, the device is always
shown as offline. The type is shown as "Generic SCSI tape", not
the actual model. An attempt to mount gives:
"%MOUNT-I-OPRQST, device is not in configuration or not available"

Next to this box I have Personal Workstation 500au,
also running the same V8.4 and the tape drive works great.
The TLZ07 used to work on the XP1000 as well, but OpenVMS on V7.x.

So, it seems to be a (known?) XP1000 issue with V8.4.
Any ideas where to look next?
Slo
Steven Schweda
2017-01-23 18:51:52 UTC
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I'm running into the same SYS$MKDRIVER problem [...]
Perhaps.
So, it seems to be a (known?) XP1000 issue with V8.4.
Not known to me. I'd tend to suspect hardware. Around
here:

ALP $ tcpip show vers

HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.7 - ECO 5
on a COMPAQ Professional Workstation XP1000 running OpenVMS V8.4

ALP $ show devi /full mk

Magtape ALP$MKB400:, device type QUANTUM DLT7000, is online, record-oriented
device, file-oriented device, served to cluster via TMSCP Server, [...]

I'd expect that, like mine, your "B" SCSI adapter is some
add-in card, not the built-in "A" one. Mine is a KZPBA-CA/CX
(QLogic ISP1040) card (functional equivalent of the built-in
one), which I use for external devices (that tape drive, and
some usually-unpowered disks).

ALP $ show devi pkb /full

Device PKB0:, device type Qlogic ISP1020 SCSI port, [...]

What's yours? What else is connected to it?

I see no evidence of VMS having any general problem
loading the driver for an MKB tape drive. I can _imagine_ a
bad adapter/cable/drive/terminator causing a device to appear
in the SRM console listing, but not the VMS listing, where
the probe might have more rigor.
Slo
2017-01-23 19:49:42 UTC
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Thanks Steven for your time,
Post by Steven Schweda
ALP $ tcpip show vers
HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.7 - ECO 5
on a COMPAQ Professional Workstation XP1000 running OpenVMS V8.4
The same over here, but without ECO 5 (how does a hobbyist acquire this?):
HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.7
Post by Steven Schweda
ALP $ show devi /full mk
Magtape ALP$MKB400:, device type QUANTUM DLT7000, is online, record-oriented
device, file-oriented device, served to cluster via TMSCP Server, [...]
I have the same, but type is (Generic SCSI tape), is offline,
device is busy, supports fastskip (per_io)...
Post by Steven Schweda
I'd expect that, like mine, your "B" SCSI adapter is some
add-in card, not the built-in "A" one. Mine is a KZPBA-CA/CX
(QLogic ISP1040) card (functional equivalent of the built-in
one), which I use for external devices (that tape drive, and
some usually-unpowered disks).
ALP $ show devi pkb /full
Device PKB0:, device type Qlogic ISP1020 SCSI port, [...]
My PKA0: is Qlogic ISP1020, but the problematic tape is
connected to the add-in card:
PKB0:, which is a SYM53C895 -- it came with the machine.
Post by Steven Schweda
What's yours? What else is connected to it?
I connect a BA362 expansion box to this B SCSI bus, it works
perfectly. If I connect the tape to the back of the BA362,
it does not work, that's why I connect it directly to
the XP1000, simplifying the configuration. Still no go.

Note: I have a second TLZ07 that I've also tried -- both
work flawlessly on my PWS 500au, so the cable and terminators
on both drives can be considered as well tested.
Post by Steven Schweda
I see no evidence of VMS having any general problem
loading the driver for an MKB tape drive. I can _imagine_ a
bad adapter/cable/drive/terminator causing a device to appear
in the SRM console listing, but not the VMS listing, where
the probe might have more rigor.
As noted, connecting the BA362 box with its two disks to SYM53C895
works fine -- the DKB300 and DKB500 are seen and the drivers loaded.
So, I have confidence in this add-in card.
Only the driver for MKB600 is never loaded, or of any use
when loaded manually from the booted system.

Is there a way to probe the device from OpenVMS, run some
tests from the >>> prompt?

Slo
David Froble
2017-01-23 20:35:31 UTC
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Post by Slo
Thanks Steven for your time,
Post by Steven Schweda
ALP $ tcpip show vers
HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.7 - ECO 5
on a COMPAQ Professional Workstation XP1000 running OpenVMS V8.4
HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.7
Post by Steven Schweda
ALP $ show devi /full mk
Magtape ALP$MKB400:, device type QUANTUM DLT7000, is online, record-oriented
device, file-oriented device, served to cluster via TMSCP Server, [...]
I have the same, but type is (Generic SCSI tape), is offline,
device is busy, supports fastskip (per_io)...
Post by Steven Schweda
I'd expect that, like mine, your "B" SCSI adapter is some
add-in card, not the built-in "A" one. Mine is a KZPBA-CA/CX
(QLogic ISP1040) card (functional equivalent of the built-in
one), which I use for external devices (that tape drive, and
some usually-unpowered disks).
ALP $ show devi pkb /full
Device PKB0:, device type Qlogic ISP1020 SCSI port, [...]
My PKA0: is Qlogic ISP1020, but the problematic tape is
PKB0:, which is a SYM53C895 -- it came with the machine.
Post by Steven Schweda
What's yours? What else is connected to it?
I connect a BA362 expansion box to this B SCSI bus, it works
perfectly. If I connect the tape to the back of the BA362,
it does not work, that's why I connect it directly to
the XP1000, simplifying the configuration. Still no go.
Note: I have a second TLZ07 that I've also tried -- both
work flawlessly on my PWS 500au, so the cable and terminators
on both drives can be considered as well tested.
Post by Steven Schweda
I see no evidence of VMS having any general problem
loading the driver for an MKB tape drive. I can _imagine_ a
bad adapter/cable/drive/terminator causing a device to appear
in the SRM console listing, but not the VMS listing, where
the probe might have more rigor.
As noted, connecting the BA362 box with its two disks to SYM53C895
works fine -- the DKB300 and DKB500 are seen and the drivers loaded.
So, I have confidence in this add-in card.
Only the driver for MKB600 is never loaded, or of any use
when loaded manually from the booted system.
Is there a way to probe the device from OpenVMS, run some
tests from the >>> prompt?
Slo
Uh ... what is the SCSI ID of the computer / card? Can't have 2 SCSI ID #6 on
the same bus ....
Slo
2017-01-24 08:57:41 UTC
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Post by David Froble
Uh ... what is the SCSI ID of the computer / card?
Can't have 2 SCSI ID #6 on the same bus ....
show config
12 NCR 53C895 pkb0.7.0.12.0 SCSI Bus ID 7
6 QLogic ISP10x0 pka0.7.0.6.1 SCSI Bus ID 7
The SCSI controllers are each ID 7. This hasn't changed for years.
Hans Bachner
2017-01-23 21:02:17 UTC
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[snip]
As noted, connecting the BA362 box with its two disks to SYM53C895
works fine -- the DKB300 and DKB500 are seen and the drivers loaded.
So, I have confidence in this add-in card.
Only the driver for MKB600 is never loaded, or of any use
when loaded manually from the booted system.
I'd switch the tape drive's SCSI id from 6 to a different (unused) id
and try again.

To check whether the SCSI adapter uses id 6 (instead of the widely used
id 7), you can look into SDA:

$ ANALYZE /SYSTEM
SDA> CLUE SCSI /SUMMARY
(look for the SPDT address of PKB0)
SDA> CLUE SCSI /PORT=<SPDT address of PKB0>

What does it say for the "Port Host SCSI Id"?

Hope this helps,
Hans.
Is there a way to probe the device from OpenVMS, run some
tests from the >>> prompt?
Slo
Slo
2017-01-24 09:04:40 UTC
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Post by Hans Bachner
I'd switch the tape drive's SCSI id from 6 to a different (unused) id
and try again.
I did, MKB0 was free, same problem. I'll try the others on next boot.
Post by Hans Bachner
To check whether the SCSI adapter uses id 6 (instead of the widely used
$ ANALYZE /SYSTEM
SDA> CLUE SCSI /SUMMARY
(look for the SPDT address of PKB0)
SDA> CLUE SCSI /PORT=<SPDT address of PKB0>
What does it say for the "Port Host SCSI Id"?
For both PKA0 and PKB0, DSA shows ID 7.
Steven Schweda
2017-01-23 22:33:45 UTC
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Post by Steven Schweda
HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.7
I don't remember if I got it from the usual HP[E] Hobbyist
server, or as a gift from someone with better patch access
than mine. I seem to have a directory full of stuff from
17-APR-2013 which includes a TCPIP-V0507-13ECO4.ZIP. I
assume that that stuff was normal Hobbyist stuff, so I'd
guess that ECO 4 was generally available then. I'd
(re-)request some current Hobbyist access credentials, and
see what's available now (through the legitimate channel).
If that fails, send me some e-mail.
Post by Steven Schweda
[...] the problematic tape is
PKB0:, which is a SYM53C895 -- it came with the machine.
I have one of those, too, but I use mine for internal
disks:

ALP $ show devi /full pkc

Device PKC0:, device type SYM53C895 LVD SCSI, is online, [...]

I haven't tried to use it with any external devices.

At start-up, VMS says:
[...]
%PKC0, Copyright (c) 1998 IntraServer Technology Inc. PKW V2.1.21 ROM V2.0
%PKC0, SCSI Chip is SYM53C895, Operating mode is LVD Ultra2 SCSI
[...]

(Is this the case where you need a genuine KZPCA, or else VMS
hates it? If your card does anything right, then I'd guess
that this is not your problem.)
Post by Steven Schweda
[...] I connect it directly to
the XP1000, simplifying the configuration. Still no go.
Still plenty of potential for termination or narrow-wide
mismatch problems. Or bad cables.
Post by Steven Schweda
[...] work flawlessly on my PWS 500au, [...]
What's the SCSI adapter there? Older/slower (more
tolerant)? I suspect that there are more differences between
the working case and the failing case than we've been
considering.
Post by Steven Schweda
Is there a way to probe the device from OpenVMS, run some
tests from the >>> prompt?
Normally, SYSMAN IO AUTOCONFIGURE [ /LOG ] [ /SELECT=xxx ]
(which the OS normally does during start-up) should show
something (with /LOG). It may be sub-ideal practice, but
powering up the drive after VMS is up would ensure that
AUTOCONFIGURE would have something to do for you. (It won't
do much if the device is already configured.) I know of no
good SRM console diagnostics, but that proves little.
Post by Steven Schweda
Uh ... what is the SCSI ID of the computer / card?
show config
Slo
2017-01-24 09:26:45 UTC
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Post by Steven Schweda
I don't remember if I got it from the usual HP[E] Hobbyist
server, or as a gift from someone with better patch access
than mine. I seem to have a directory full of stuff from
17-APR-2013 which includes a TCPIP-V0507-13ECO4.ZIP. I
assume that that stuff was normal Hobbyist stuff, so I'd
guess that ECO 4 was generally available then. I'd
(re-)request some current Hobbyist access credentials, and
see what's available now (through the legitimate channel).
If that fails, send me some e-mail.
Thanks, but it's not urgent at the moment -- I'm trying to make the
hardware work first.
Post by Steven Schweda
Device PKC0:, device type SYM53C895 LVD SCSI, is online, [...]
(Is this the case where you need a genuine KZPCA, or else VMS
hates it? If your card does anything right, then I'd guess
that this is not your problem.)
When I connect disks to this SCSI card, they all work.
It's something with this external TLZ07.
Post by Steven Schweda
Post by Steven Schweda
[...] work flawlessly on my PWS 500au, [...]
What's the SCSI adapter there? Older/slower (more
tolerant)? I suspect that there are more differences between
the working case and the failing case than we've been
considering.
It's a ISP1040, works great with TLZ07. It seems to be happy with
the tape's cable and terminator.
Steven Schweda
2017-01-24 15:01:18 UTC
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Post by Slo
It's a ISP1040, works great with TLZ07. It seems to be happy with
the tape's cable and terminator.
Ok, but bear in mind that the KZPBA (ISP1040, Fast/Wide)
is a slower card than the KZPCA (SYM53C895, LVD Ultra2/Wide).
Sleazy old (non-Ultra) cables and/or terminators, or too-long
cables in a non-LVD mode could cause trouble.
Post by Slo
[...]
%PKC0, Copyright (c) 1998 IntraServer Technology Inc. PKW V2.1.21 ROM V2.0
%PKC0, SCSI Chip is SYM53C895, Operating mode is LVD Ultra2 SCSI
[...]
That's with a couple of internal disks ("device type
SEAGATE ST373207LC" with SCA-68-pin adapters) on an Ultra
cable with a factory-attached Ultra160 (or was it 320?)
terminator. (Your results would still be interesting.)

In general, I'd try to avoid doing internal and external
with the same SCSI bus. In my case, the idea was to put the
(semi-)modern Ultra/Wide disks on the faster Ultra/Wide card,
and use the older/slower card for the older/slower (but still
Wide) external disks and tape. (The external disks are in
Sun 611 boxes. The tape and CD/RW drive are in similar,
less-branded boxes, but all Wide.)

My junk may be newer/better than your junk. I don't think
that I have any narrow SCSI devices on anything as new
("new"?) an XP1000 now.
Stephen Hoffman
2017-01-23 22:59:44 UTC
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Post by Slo
I'm running into the same SYS$MKDRIVER problem
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/comp.os.vms/sys$24mkdriver/comp.os.vms/zs2p53UWAEE/Gxy0V5CGnVcJ
This is on a V8.4 hobbyist system (Alphastation XP1000).
My TLZ07 shows in >>>show device as MKB500, but not once the system boots.
SRM doesn't do much with and doesn't expect very much from the SCSI
devices it finds, as compared with OpenVMS.

Which means that errors secondary to configuration problems can arise.

That case can also arise when the OpenVMS system is being booted
minimally; via STARTUP_P1 set to MIN, et al.
Post by Slo
I've tried all the MCR SYSMAN IO ... commands to load the driver and
$SHOW DEVICE MK shows the device.
If the device doesn't autoconfigure, then manual driver configuration
isn't how this is expected nor supposed to work.
Post by Slo
However, the device is always shown as offline. The type is shown as
"%MOUNT-I-OPRQST, device is not in configuration or not available"
Probably because the device is not completely electrically connected,
or there's some other error preventing the device from being detected
by the OpenVMS configuration process. Unit number collision, minimal
boot, etc.
Post by Slo
Next to this box I have Personal Workstation 500au, also running the
same V8.4 and the tape drive works great.
The TLZ07 used to work on the XP1000 as well, but OpenVMS on V7.x.
You could downgrade to V7 and try again. But I'd wager that something
else here has changed, and that the OpenVMS downgrade won't work; that
the device won't autoconfigure back then, either.
Post by Slo
So, it seems to be a (known?) XP1000 issue with V8.4.
Usually a configuration error, or flaky or failed hardware.
Post by Slo
Any ideas where to look next?
The AlphaStation XP1000 is known for having the I/O cables stuffed into
the box, and it's easy to have the SCSI cable connectors get canted, or
a ribbon cable get damaged. If this TLZ07 is mounted inside the
XP1000 box, be VERY suspicious of EVERY SCSI connection and every bus
adapter and every cable and every terminator inside that box. I've
seen this exact behavior with a cable connector that wasn't completely
socketed.

Remove the device from the bus and power cycle the box and make sure
there's no other unit 5 present on the B bus, verify that the same
cables work elsewhere, that the bus termination is correct, then move
the SCSI controller to a different slot in the box, then try a
different SCSI controller in the box. Make sure all the parts are
appropriate LVD, and that there aren't any narrow cables or terminators
in the mix, and that there's just one terminator on the bus.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
Slo
2017-01-24 11:34:36 UTC
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Post by Stephen Hoffman
If the device doesn't autoconfigure, then manual driver configuration
isn't how this is expected nor supposed to work.
OK
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Probably because the device is not completely electrically connected,
or there's some other error preventing the device from being detected
by the OpenVMS configuration process. Unit number collision, minimal
boot, etc.
Triple-checking... By the way, I did not clarify that the TLZ07 is an
EXTERNAL drive, with its own power.
The cable P/N is 17-03567-22, Wide/Narrow SCSI Cable 1.5m.
I have to look inside the box to see how the lengths add up.
The BA362 that works great has a 1.0m cable (Narrow/Narrow) --
maybe there is a clue somewhere? Maybe Wide/Narrow and/or 1.5m
is the culprit?
Post by Stephen Hoffman
You could downgrade to V7 and try again. But I'd wager that something
else here has changed, and that the OpenVMS downgrade won't work; that
the device won't autoconfigure back then, either.
Agree, but I believe the configuration it worked in the past, like
10-15 years ago.
Post by Stephen Hoffman
The AlphaStation XP1000 is known for having the I/O cables stuffed into
the box, and it's easy to have the SCSI cable connectors get canted, or
a ribbon cable get damaged. If this TLZ07 is mounted inside the
XP1000 box, be VERY suspicious of EVERY SCSI connection and every bus
adapter and every cable and every terminator inside that box. I've
seen this exact behavior with a cable connector that wasn't completely
socketed.
Remove the device from the bus and power cycle the box and make sure
there's no other unit 5 present on the B bus, verify that the same
cables work elsewhere, that the bus termination is correct, then move
the SCSI controller to a different slot in the box, then try a
different SCSI controller in the box. Make sure all the parts are
appropriate LVD, and that there aren't any narrow cables or terminators
in the mix, and that there's just one terminator on the bus.
I don't have any other cards of cables to swap, I'll keep you posted.
Thanks all.
John E. Malmberg
2017-01-24 14:46:44 UTC
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Post by Slo
Post by Stephen Hoffman
If the device doesn't autoconfigure, then manual driver configuration
isn't how this is expected nor supposed to work.
OK
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Probably because the device is not completely electrically connected,
or there's some other error preventing the device from being detected
by the OpenVMS configuration process. Unit number collision, minimal
boot, etc.
Triple-checking... By the way, I did not clarify that the TLZ07 is an
EXTERNAL drive, with its own power.
The cable P/N is 17-03567-22, Wide/Narrow SCSI Cable 1.5m.
I have to look inside the box to see how the lengths add up.
The BA362 that works great has a 1.0m cable (Narrow/Narrow) --
maybe there is a clue somewhere? Maybe Wide/Narrow and/or 1.5m
is the culprit?
SCSI can be picky, and diagnosing it either requires swapping components
with known good ones.

Some SCSI adapters will not support both internal and external
connections at the same time per the VMS SPD. Sometimes you can
violate this and it will work.

Some SCSI cards have internal terminators on their external bus that
need to be turned off.
Post by Slo
Device PKC0:, device type SYM53C895 LVD SCSI, is online, [...]
http://decdoc.itsx.net/dec94mds/tlz07ina.pdf

I have not been able to find anything that states a TLZ-07 is or is not
compatible with LVD SCSI. This is implying to me that it is not
directly compatible.

http://www.paralan.com/scsiexpert.html

Regards,
-John
***@qsl.net_work
Steven Schweda
2017-01-24 15:12:59 UTC
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[...] not directly compatible.
In general, an LVD Ultra adapter will negotiate a mode
which is the best acceptable to everyone on the bus. Hence
that helpful "Operating mode is [...]" message at start-up.
(If it falls back from LVD to single-ended, then the maximum
cable length will drop, too.)

Of course, mixing wide and narrow SCSI devices on a bus
can also cause termination problems.
John Reagan
2017-01-24 15:34:53 UTC
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Post by John E. Malmberg
Post by Slo
Post by Stephen Hoffman
If the device doesn't autoconfigure, then manual driver configuration
isn't how this is expected nor supposed to work.
OK
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Probably because the device is not completely electrically connected,
or there's some other error preventing the device from being detected
by the OpenVMS configuration process. Unit number collision, minimal
boot, etc.
Triple-checking... By the way, I did not clarify that the TLZ07 is an
EXTERNAL drive, with its own power.
The cable P/N is 17-03567-22, Wide/Narrow SCSI Cable 1.5m.
I have to look inside the box to see how the lengths add up.
The BA362 that works great has a 1.0m cable (Narrow/Narrow) --
maybe there is a clue somewhere? Maybe Wide/Narrow and/or 1.5m
is the culprit?
SCSI can be picky, and diagnosing it either requires swapping components
with known good ones.
I've often suggested goat entrails and a pentagram for SCSI issues.
Slo
2017-01-24 16:58:44 UTC
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Post by John E. Malmberg
Some SCSI adapters will not support both internal and external
connections at the same time per the VMS SPD. Sometimes you can
violate this and it will work.
Some SCSI cards have internal terminators on their external bus that
need to be turned off.
Post by Steven Schweda
Device PKC0:, device type SYM53C895 LVD SCSI, is online, [...]
http://decdoc.itsx.net/dec94mds/tlz07ina.pdf
I have not been able to find anything that states a TLZ-07 is or is not
compatible with LVD SCSI. This is implying to me that it is not
directly compatible.
http://www.paralan.com/scsiexpert.html
Thanks for the research! I really did not want to learn about this
this late in the '80s technology game :-)
Slo
2017-01-24 16:54:31 UTC
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Thanks very much to all of you that offered to help, and remind me
of the black magic involved in SCSI. I give up as I see no change
in behavior.

My two TLZ07-DA's still work on the PWS 500au, and I have managed
to read, write, and INIT tapes dating 1998 with zero errors! It's
impressive how this stuff still works reliably -- unfortunately,
tape capacities of no more than 8GB (compressed) are of very limited
use today. But I can't image backup my XP1000 anyway, as I'd hoped.

Maybe I'll put the drives+tapes up on eBay and see what happens.
I've seen quotes from $199-$300. If anyone is interested, mail me.

Slo
Craig A. Berry
2017-01-24 17:19:47 UTC
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Post by Slo
But I can't image backup my XP1000 anyway, as I'd hoped.
Get a cheap Philips USB card (don't attempt with built-in USB) and a thumb drive of whatever capacity you want. Boot from CD, initialize and mount the thumb drive, and do a BACKUP/IMAGE/COMPRESS to a saveset on the thumb drive. This worked for me. YMMV.
Steven Schweda
2017-01-24 23:55:14 UTC
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Post by Craig A. Berry
Get a cheap Philips USB card (don't attempt with built-in
USB) [...]
I thought that the built-in USB was supposed to work on
these systems these days (VMS V8.3 and up?). For adapter
suggestions, see SYS$SYSTEM:SYS$CONFIG.DAT. My cheap-Chinese
cards have NEC µPD720101 or (720100) chips. I don't do much
with USB on VMS these days, but, some time ago, it all worked
about as expected, as I recall.

I (still) do my backups to DLT IV tapes, in that "QUANTUM
DLT7000" drive cited earlier. (35GB real? An 8000 drive
would give 40GB on the same (cheap) tape, as I recall. More
with the hardware compression, of course.)
Post by Craig A. Berry
[...] unfortunately, tape capacities of no more than 8GB
(compressed) are of very limited use today. But I can't image
backup my XP1000 anyway, as I'd hoped.
Personally, if I wanted to use an old, lame tape drive in
my XP1000, I'd consider investing the $15 or so required for
a KZPBA-CA/CX (NOT the HV differential KZPBA-CB/CY), and
using that for the external tape drive, and leaving the KZPCA
for (newer/faster/wider) internal disks. (And trying to
ignore the built-in ISP1040 interface, unless I happened to
have an old Sun-gray "TOSHIBA DVD-ROM SD-M1711", to give it
something to do.)
Craig A. Berry
2017-01-25 01:19:21 UTC
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Post by Steven Schweda
Post by Craig A. Berry
Get a cheap Philips USB card (don't attempt with built-in
USB) [...]
I thought that the built-in USB was supposed to work on
these systems these days (VMS V8.3 and up?). For adapter
suggestions, see SYS$SYSTEM:SYS$CONFIG.DAT. My cheap-Chinese
cards have NEC µPD720101 or (720100) chips. I don't do much
with USB on VMS these days, but, some time ago, it all worked
about as expected, as I recall.
It's possible that information I gleaned from this newsgroup a long time
ago has since become a superstition, but for some reason I thought the
built-in USB was only workable for keyboards and mice and missile
launchers but not for mass storage. I no longer know why I think that
and it may not be true.

Oh, and I lied about Philips -- I have NEC too. Which I discovered by
putting "openvms xp1000 usb card" into the Great Google, which found this:

<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.os.vms/tWjvcH871n4>

which was a lot easier than pulling the lid off my XP1000 to see what
kind of card it has (or than powering up the XP1000).
Slo
2017-01-26 12:18:27 UTC
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Post by Craig A. Berry
It's possible that information I gleaned from this newsgroup a long time
ago has since become a superstition, but for some reason I thought the
built-in USB was only workable for keyboards and mice and missile
launchers but not for mass storage. I no longer know why I think that
and it may not be true.
Wrong, I have big USB sticks and a 320GB Western Digital drive working great
on the XP1000. The built-in USB port has enough power for the WD drive.

I've done (hours long) BACKUP/LOG disk:[000000...] to those devices without errors. The only annoying thing is that on the WD disk the cluster size
is 480 blocks, but the space is infinite compared to the 4 and 8GB SCSI disks
that I have. The slowness does not matter to me, and I don't need the
reliability/performance of SCSI, I'm a hobbyist.

USB support is the main reason I wanted to get rid
of the TLZ06 and tape media, because I can finally
manage space and backups without those screaming
SCSI disks.

OpenVMS cannot boot from the built-in USB devices,
but, as some of you have suggested getting a
third-party USB card, is there a setup that makes
booting from a USB device possible?

Anything to cut down the SCSI noise...
Dennis Boone
2017-01-26 12:32:07 UTC
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Post by Slo
Anything to cut down the SCSI noise...
http://shop.codesrc.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=58

?

De
Slo
2017-01-26 17:42:43 UTC
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Post by Dennis Boone
Post by Slo
Anything to cut down the SCSI noise...
http://shop.codesrc.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=58
?
De
Noted, thanks. It states that my box is supported:
Compaq XP-1000 Professional Workstation
Alpha 21264 CPU, 667MHz, with a QLogic SCSI controller in a PCI slot
Any real-life experiences?
Steven Schweda
2017-01-26 14:00:25 UTC
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[...] 4 and 8GB SCSI disks [...]
Anything to cut down the SCSI noise...
Perhaps I'm older and deafer than you, but I don't find my
10K r/m, 73GB or 146GB SCSI disks particularly loud,
especially compared to the fans. Perhaps you need
newer/better junk.
Bob Koehler
2017-01-26 14:23:05 UTC
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Post by Steven Schweda
[...] 4 and 8GB SCSI disks [...]
Anything to cut down the SCSI noise...
Perhaps I'm older and deafer than you, but I don't find my
10K r/m, 73GB or 146GB SCSI disks particularly loud,
especially compared to the fans. Perhaps you need
newer/better junk.
Loud? SCSI?

I had to work with an HP 1000 workstation for a while. Powering up
the disk sounded like a Boeing 707 was cruising through the computer
room.
Slo
2017-01-26 17:56:17 UTC
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Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Steven Schweda
[...] 4 and 8GB SCSI disks [...]
Anything to cut down the SCSI noise...
Perhaps I'm older and deafer than you, but I don't find my
10K r/m, 73GB or 146GB SCSI disks particularly loud,
especially compared to the fans. Perhaps you need
newer/better junk.
Loud? SCSI?
I had to work with an HP 1000 workstation for a while. Powering up
the disk sounded like a Boeing 707 was cruising through the computer
room.
I guess it's the fan, after all. But some of my disks would emit
a high-pitched sound for sure. In fact, I can hear that right now,
but can't tell if it's from the two SCSI disks in the XP1000, or
the other two in the expansion box.
Bob Koehler
2017-01-26 18:24:24 UTC
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Post by Slo
I guess it's the fan, after all. But some of my disks would emit
a high-pitched sound for sure. In fact, I can hear that right now,
but can't tell if it's from the two SCSI disks in the XP1000, or
the other two in the expansion box.
Had a SEL 32/55 at school, back before Gould put their name on them.
Large numbers of box fans on the side for cooling. Every couple of
months one of them would start to screech. Generally was able to get
a replacement before it died.
Slo
2017-01-26 18:03:08 UTC
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Post by Steven Schweda
[...] 4 and 8GB SCSI disks [...]
Anything to cut down the SCSI noise...
Perhaps I'm older and deafer than you, but I don't find my
10K r/m, 73GB or 146GB SCSI disks particularly loud,
especially compared to the fans. Perhaps you need
newer/better junk.
I only have some old 4/8GB RZ drives,
but I'm hoping to reduce the number,
as they certainly add to the noise
level of the fan.
In any case, whoever enters my "lab"
when this equipment is on, can't stay
longer than a few minutes.
Slo
2017-01-27 13:03:06 UTC
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Post by Steven Schweda
Personally, if I wanted to use an old, lame tape drive in
my XP1000, I'd consider investing the $15 or so required for
a KZPBA-CA/CX (NOT the HV differential KZPBA-CB/CY), and
using that for the external tape drive, and leaving the KZPCA
for (newer/faster/wider) internal disks. (And trying to
ignore the built-in ISP1040 interface, unless I happened to
have an old Sun-gray "TOSHIBA DVD-ROM SD-M1711", to give it
something to do.)
Actually, I want to get SCSI out of the equation altogether, tapes
and disks. Are there ways to boot from IDE or USB drives?
I don't recalling reading about it.
John E. Malmberg
2017-01-27 13:50:52 UTC
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Post by Slo
Post by Steven Schweda
Personally, if I wanted to use an old, lame tape drive in
my XP1000, I'd consider investing the $15 or so required for
a KZPBA-CA/CX (NOT the HV differential KZPBA-CB/CY), and
using that for the external tape drive, and leaving the KZPCA
for (newer/faster/wider) internal disks. (And trying to
ignore the built-in ISP1040 interface, unless I happened to
have an old Sun-gray "TOSHIBA DVD-ROM SD-M1711", to give it
something to do.)
Actually, I want to get SCSI out of the equation altogether, tapes
and disks. Are there ways to boot from IDE or USB drives?
I don't recalling reading about it.
A properly functioning SCSI disk drive and a properly functioning IDE
disk drive should make the same amount of noise. Almost none.
If either is making enough noise to be annoying, it is telling you that
it is about to go to kaput.

VMS IDE drives are much slower than SCSI, limited a bit by the driver,
and that the IDE driver has not been enhanced to support. The driver is
also limited to about 149 GB size.

I do not know of any USB boot support on Alpha.

If you want the lowest cost per GB then your options are:

* Booting:
1) Local IDE or SCSI (which ever your hardware supports)
2) SimH/VAX cluster boot node, and network boot your hardware.
3) Alpha emulator cluster boot node, and network boot your hardware.
4) Alpha emulator running InfoServer, and network boot your hardware.

* Data:
1) NFS mount drives from Linux/Cygwin host
2) MSCP serve drives from SimH/VAX or Alpha emulator.
3) Alpha emulator + InfoServer network served drives.
4) USB drives.

With SCSI you have the option of SCSI->SATA adapters for up to 2 TiB
volumes. The SCSI->SATA adapters are not cheap though.

There have been reports of getting some "unsupported" smart array
adapters that support SATA to work on some Alphas. Unless your Alpha
firmware supports a Smart Array, though booting would be a lost cause.

Regards,
-John
***@qsl.net_work
Steven Schweda
2017-01-27 17:43:32 UTC
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Post by Slo
Actually, I want to get SCSI out of the equation
altogether, tapes and disks. [...]
Why? I can understand wanting to discard old/loud/tiny
SCSI disks, but why not replace them with
newer/quieter/bigger SCSI disks? I haven't looked lately,
but the ones I have were pretty cheap on Ebay when I got
them.

I still lack sufficient info to know, but I suspect that
your problems with the tape drive involve trying to attach
too much, too-different hardware to one SCSI adapter, and
could be cured for approximately no money with another cheap
SCSI adapter. To me, the answer seems to be more SCSI
hardware, not less. An XP1000 is old enough to drive in most
states. Expecting it to use the same peripheral/storage
devices as a much newer PC seems to me misguided. Perhaps I
lack imagination.
Post by Slo
VMS IDE drives are much slower than SCSI, [...]
That's "MUCH" slower. No DMA. I have a DVD/RW drive in
one system, and it eats very close to 100% of the CPU when
used.
Slo
2017-01-30 20:54:57 UTC
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Post by Steven Schweda
Why? I can understand wanting to discard old/loud/tiny
SCSI disks, but why not replace them with
newer/quieter/bigger SCSI disks? I haven't looked lately,
but the ones I have were pretty cheap on Ebay when I got
them.
Because I don't want to invest anything in this area.
Post by Steven Schweda
I still lack sufficient info to know, but I suspect that
your problems with the tape drive involve trying to attach
too much, too-different hardware to one SCSI adapter, and
could be cured for approximately no money with another cheap
SCSI adapter. To me, the answer seems to be more SCSI
hardware, not less. An XP1000 is old enough to drive in most
states. Expecting it to use the same peripheral/storage
devices as a much newer PC seems to me misguided. Perhaps I
lack imagination.
I managed to connect the tape to the PWS 500au and get
the data (actually, I just formatted all tapes as I found
nothing worth keeping from 15+ years ago :-)
Slo
2017-01-26 12:01:07 UTC
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Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Slo
But I can't image backup my XP1000 anyway, as I'd hoped.
Get a cheap Philips USB card (don't attempt with built-in USB) and a thumb drive of whatever capacity you want. Boot from CD, initialize and mount the thumb drive, and do a BACKUP/IMAGE/COMPRESS to a saveset on the thumb drive. This worked for me. YMMV.
Is there somewhere a list of PCI cards supported by OpenVMS drivers on XP1000?
I have some generic USB cards -- should they work out of the box?
Robert A. Brooks
2017-01-26 12:43:49 UTC
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Post by Slo
Is there somewhere a list of PCI cards supported by OpenVMS drivers on
XP1000? I have some generic USB cards -- should they work out of the box?
There are no SUPPORTED cards whatsoever for USB on OpenVMS Alpha. The USB
"support" for Alpha is pretty negligible, and whatever little exists is soley
for the built-in ports.
--
-- Rob
John E. Malmberg
2017-01-26 13:57:36 UTC
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Post by Robert A. Brooks
Post by Slo
Is there somewhere a list of PCI cards supported by OpenVMS drivers on
XP1000? I have some generic USB cards -- should they work out of the box?
There are no SUPPORTED cards whatsoever for USB on OpenVMS Alpha. The
USB "support" for Alpha is pretty negligible, and whatever little exists
is soley for the built-in ports.
If the USB card has a chipset that the driver recognizes, then it may
work but is unsupported of course. You may have to edit the
sys$user_config.dat to add the device. Note that VMS and layer products
may also modify this file. I do not remember where the documentation is
for modifying this file is.

I do not remember the specific chipsets that are supported by VMS or if
anyone is maintaining a list of what has been found to work.
A page at https://sourceforge.net/p/vms-ports/wiki/Home/ could be
created for that.

No boot support that I am aware of.

If you can use a Alpha, or IA64, or Alpha emulator to setup an
Infoserver, then you can create a network bootable recovery image that
can then be used to read your USB backup device.

Alternatively for more storage, I have been able to use cygwin/32 nfsd
and Fedora Core 22 nfsd to serve storage to VMS 7.3, 8.3, and 8.4. VMS
8.4 works the best of these.

VMS Backup has issues with NFS, but generally it works good enough for
code development.

The cygwin/32 nfsd storage is used for the current open source that I am
working on, and is continuously backed up via a free Dropbox account to
the cloud. No incremental backups.

The dropbox backed up storage is also replicated to other systems on my
network.

I think I have documented my NFS setup somewhere in the Wiki at
https://sourceforge.net/p/vms-ports/wiki/Home/

Regards,
-John
***@qsl.net_work
Slo
2017-01-30 20:57:01 UTC
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Post by John E. Malmberg
I think I have documented my NFS setup somewhere in the Wiki at
https://sourceforge.net/p/vms-ports/wiki/Home/
Indeed, great tips:
https://sourceforge.net/p/vms-ports/wiki/CodeDevelopment/

I wish I had the skills and motivation to get involved.
Stephen Hoffman
2017-01-28 22:32:26 UTC
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Post by Robert A. Brooks
Post by Slo
Is there somewhere a list of PCI cards supported by OpenVMS drivers on
XP1000? I have some generic USB cards -- should they work out of the box?
There are no SUPPORTED cards whatsoever for USB on OpenVMS Alpha. The
USB "support" for Alpha is pretty negligible, and whatever little
exists is soley for the built-in ports.
AFAIK, USB is supported and necessary on Marvel-class systems and not
on any other Alpha systems, though I'm not aware of any particular
documentation or support restrictions on the Marvel USB connections.

What is and is not supported or deprecated has always been a murky area
of OpenVMS, though. q.v. EDT
Post by Robert A. Brooks
"There are often questions around “which works?”, and the difficulty
here is that the USB controllers vary chipsets from one production run
to the next, so this determination is difficult or impossible. Even
with a specific USB PCI controller that is known to work with OpenVMS,
the USB chipset can easily be changed in another production run of the
controller. Further, these controllers have very short product
lifetimes, and any or all of the specified controllers may not be
available.
The ADS Technology Turbo Quad 4 PCI USB controller has been mentioned
as having had some testing with OpenVMS, as have various USB
controllers with the Lucent/Agere USS344 USB chipset, or the Symbios
6080 USB chipset. The NEC EHCI USB 2.0 chipset (NEC uPD 720100 or
equivalent) common in various recent PCI device controllers also
appears to work, as it presents the OHCI necessary for the OpenVMS
drivers. The AlphaStation XP1000 integrated (Cypress) USB can be coaxed
into operation, as well. These devices all present OHCI.
At the AlphaStation XP1000 series SRM console, ensure that the SRM
system environment variable USB_ENABLE is set to ON. Here are the basic
SRM-level commands involved.
SHOW USB_ENABLE
SET USB_ENABLE ON
...
Edit the file SYS$SYSTEM:SYS$USER_CONFIG.DAT to include the following
device = "Cypress USB Controller"
name = OH
driver = SYS$OHCIDRIVER
adapter = PCI
id = USBC
boot_class = DN
boot_flags = HW_CTRL_LTR, UNIT_0
flags = PORT, BOOT
end_device
Then reboot.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
Slo
2017-01-30 22:25:29 UTC
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Post by Robert A. Brooks
At the AlphaStation XP1000 series SRM console, ensure that the SRM
system environment variable USB_ENABLE is set to ON. Here are the basic
SRM-level commands involved.
SHOW USB_ENABLE
SET USB_ENABLE ON
...
Edit the file SYS$SYSTEM:SYS$USER_CONFIG.DAT to include the following
device = "Cypress USB Controller"
name = OH
driver = SYS$OHCIDRIVER
adapter = PCI
id = USBC
boot_class = DN
boot_flags = HW_CTRL_LTR, UNIT_0
flags = PORT, BOOT
end_device
Thanks for this article. I bookmarked it a long time ago as

http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/1410

but any links starting with "labs." haven't worked
for the past couple of days, at least. They still don't.
I wanted to post the link so others, who didn't know
about USB support, could make the XP1000 somewhat more useful.

Thanks for the goldmine of information and knowledge over the
past few decades.
Stephen Hoffman
2017-01-31 01:24:06 UTC
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Post by Slo
Thanks for this article. I bookmarked it a long time ago as
http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/1410
but any links starting with "labs." haven't worked for the past couple
of days, at least. They still don't.
Ayup.

There'd been a server replacement scheduled in December as the existing
server hardware had aged out, when an RCE was announced in some of the
associated software. The various network services including the web
server were all re-hosted over onto the new server as was expected —
with the newly-announced RCE, unfortunately — and the replacement
server has been up and running since then. The labs web server is
running internally but is not generally accessible, pending additional
work on the software and configuration including remediating the RCE.
Other activities have had priority over providing a free web service
and contents.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
Slo
2017-01-31 11:18:43 UTC
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Post by Stephen Hoffman
There'd been a server replacement scheduled in December as the existing
server hardware had aged out, when an RCE was announced in some of the
associated software. The various network services including the web
server were all re-hosted over onto the new server as was expected —
with the newly-announced RCE, unfortunately — and the replacement
server has been up and running since then. The labs web server is
running internally but is not generally accessible, pending additional
work on the software and configuration including remediating the RCE.
Other activities have had priority over providing a free web service
and contents.
Thanks for clarifying. RCE as in:

https://thehackernews.com/search/label/remote%20code%20execution ?

Scary...
Stephen Hoffman
2017-01-31 14:14:34 UTC
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Post by Slo
Post by Stephen Hoffman
There'd been a server replacement scheduled in December as the
existing> server hardware had aged out, when an RCE was announced in
some of the> associated software. The various network services
including the web> server were all re-hosted over onto the new server
as was expected —> with the newly-announced RCE, unfortunately — and
the replacement> server has been up and running since then. The labs
web server is> running internally but is not generally accessible,
pending additional> work on the software and configuration including
remediating the RCE. Other activities have had priority over providing
a free web service> and contents.
https://thehackernews.com/search/label/remote%20code%20execution ?
Scary...
Get yourself onto the security notification lists.

The world has changed massively from the era that most OpenVMS security
folks remember.

Whether some of the recently-announced tcpdump RCEs effect the OpenVMS
version of tcpdump, for instance?
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
Steven Schweda
2017-01-26 13:50:48 UTC
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Post by Slo
Is there somewhere a list of PCI cards supported by OpenVMS
drivers on XP1000?
s/supported/tolerated/ ?
Post by Slo
[...] For adapter
suggestions, see SYS$SYSTEM:SYS$CONFIG.DAT. My cheap-Chinese
cards have NEC µPD720101 or (720100) chips. [...]
I have some generic USB cards -- should they work out of the box?
Sure, _if_ they use chips which are recognized/tolerated
by the existing drivers. With my weak psychic powers, I
can't say much specific about "some generic USB cards".

SRM "show config" should provide some hints as to the PCI
Vendor and Device ID codes for a mystery card, and between
those data and what's printed on the main chip (and Web sites
like http://pcidatabase.com/), it's often possible to see if
there's anything in SYS$CONFIG.DAT which matches.
Slo
2017-01-26 18:07:06 UTC
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Post by Steven Schweda
s/supported/tolerated/ ?
Yes :-)
Post by Steven Schweda
Post by Slo
I have some generic USB cards -- should they work out of the box?
Sure, _if_ they use chips which are recognized/tolerated
by the existing drivers. With my weak psychic powers, I
can't say much specific about "some generic USB cards".
SRM "show config" should provide some hints as to the PCI
Vendor and Device ID codes for a mystery card, and between
those data and what's printed on the main chip (and Web sites
like http://pcidatabase.com/), it's often possible to see if
there's anything in SYS$CONFIG.DAT which matches.
Thanks for the tips.
Baldrick
2017-01-27 18:16:04 UTC
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Post by Slo
I'm running into the same SYS$MKDRIVER problem
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/comp.os.vms/sys$24mkdriver/comp.os.vms/zs2p53UWAEE/Gxy0V5CGnVcJ
This is on a V8.4 hobbyist system (Alphastation XP1000).
My TLZ07 shows in >>>show device as MKB500,
but not once the system boots.
I've tried all the MCR SYSMAN IO ... commands to load the driver
and $SHOW DEVICE MK shows the device. However, the device is always
shown as offline. The type is shown as "Generic SCSI tape", not
"%MOUNT-I-OPRQST, device is not in configuration or not available"
Next to this box I have Personal Workstation 500au,
also running the same V8.4 and the tape drive works great.
The TLZ07 used to work on the XP1000 as well, but OpenVMS on V7.x.
So, it seems to be a (known?) XP1000 issue with V8.4.
Any ideas where to look next?
Slo
Simple. We had this recently too we had a tape drive replaced in our silo and all of a sudden - it vanished !

When I got the hardware team to check, the replacement sent to them was a generic firmware version, not a digital / dec / compaq / hp(e) approved model.

So the issue is the device you are using simply is not recognised with VMS, your fix is to find a supported unit.

As others have indicated in this thread you may or will experience unintended, unexpected or non definitive results with non qualified hardware. In some cases you may see it at console or controller level but VMS will not play. Its probably more luck than design it works with earlier version of VMS.

Being a maverick that I am i'd try copying the driver from the 7.1 system to the 8.4 and either watch the system become a doorstop or you may be lucky. I've certainly mixed and matched drivers in the past between versions but you are asking for instability issues, and as far as support goes you just ran out of cliff and your legs are running in thin air.

The phrase "don't try this on a production system" comes to mind.

Similar to yourself I bought from eBay a Sony (internal) DAT drive but while the mechanism is similar, the firmware and way it identifies itself to VMS means I can't use it. Doesn't mean it was duff or a dud, just I was being too optimistic. Been there, done that, t shirt recycled long ago.
Steven Schweda
2017-01-28 22:56:13 UTC
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Post by Slo
The TLZ07 used to work on the XP1000 as well, but OpenVMS
on V7.x.
Did it work on the problem system running V7.x, and then
begin failing immediately after the upgrade to V8.4 (with no
change in the hardware)? Or did it work at some time in the
distant past, when the system was running V7.x, possibly with
different hardware (cables, drives, terminators, ...)?
Post by Slo
[...] i'd try copying the driver from the 7.1 system to the
8.4 [...]
I probably wouldn't, until I got very desperate, and, even
then, only if I were certain that the OS upgrade (and not
some hardware change) triggered the problem.
Slo
2017-01-30 22:05:46 UTC
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Post by Steven Schweda
Did it work on the problem system running V7.x, and then
begin failing immediately after the upgrade to V8.4 (with no
change in the hardware)? Or did it work at some time in the
distant past, when the system was running V7.x, possibly with
different hardware (cables, drives, terminators, ...)?
Yes, it worked in the past (15+ years ago), and there were no
changes to the hardware. The TLZ07 was sitting on the XP1000
under my desk, and VMS was some 7.x version.

After 15 years, I grabbed the hobbyist V8.4 kit to play with,
restore old stuff, etc.
Post by Steven Schweda
Post by Slo
[...] i'd try copying the driver from the 7.1 system to the
8.4 [...]
I probably wouldn't, until I got very desperate, and, even
then, only if I were certain that the OS upgrade (and not
some hardware change) triggered the problem.
No longer interested. I'm in the waiting-for-the-x86-port mode,
gathering DCL and C stuff I did ages ago and hoping to do
something with it on the new platform -- provided the hardware
would be something I could afford. In any case, I want to get rid
of the old heavy, noisy iron.
Craig A. Berry
2017-01-31 02:32:50 UTC
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Post by Slo
No longer interested. I'm in the waiting-for-the-x86-port mode,
gathering DCL and C stuff I did ages ago and hoping to do
something with it on the new platform -- provided the hardware
would be something I could afford. In any case, I want to get rid
of the old heavy, noisy iron.
I'm looking forward to ditching the noisy, power-hungry eccentric
hardware as well, and hoping they pick a hypervisor that I can run on my
Mac for free. I don't think they know yet which one(s) will be supported.
Slo
2017-01-31 10:45:27 UTC
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Post by Craig A. Berry
I'm looking forward to ditching the noisy, power-hungry eccentric
hardware as well, and hoping they pick a hypervisor that I can run on my
Mac for free. I don't think they know yet which one(s) will be supported.
OT: Is anything known about the minimum X86 hardware for the port?
I plan to get a new main PC and don't want to be surprised.
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