Discussion:
Which GUI to use for VMS?
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Dirk Munk
2017-03-01 12:17:27 UTC
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So VMS needs a GUI.

And we also know that the 'old' DecWindows interface is a bit obsolete.

Then what kind of GUI should VMS have?

Perhaps Java front ends that you can start from a simple terminal
interface, or from a browser with Web Start?

At least you don't need a non-free X-Windows server on your PC/Mac, just
a free Java package.

And now VT terminals are really gone, shouldn't VMS be packed with a
Windows, Linux and MAC VT emulator that can do everything a real VT
terminal can do?

After all, VMS applications that were designed using the more advanced
possibilities of VT terminals should work properly on terminal emulators
also.

Pathworks had the Ericom VT emulator, it was the best one I've seen.
Perhaps VSI could approach them and see if they can supply a VT-only
emulator.
Jan-Erik Soderholm
2017-03-01 13:08:36 UTC
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Post by Dirk Munk
So VMS needs a GUI.
Are you talkning about VMS the OS, or the applications?
For applications, everything is "on the web" today anyway.
Post by Dirk Munk
And we also know that the 'old' DecWindows interface is a bit obsolete.
Then what kind of GUI should VMS have?
Perhaps Java front ends that you can start from a simple terminal
interface, or from a browser with Web Start?
At least you don't need a non-free X-Windows server on your PC/Mac, just a
free Java package.
And now VT terminals are really gone, shouldn't VMS be packed with a
Windows, Linux and MAC VT emulator that can do everything a real VT
terminal can do?
After all, VMS applications that were designed using the more advanced
possibilities of VT terminals should work properly on terminal emulators also.
Don't they? Maybe remove those "advanced possibilities" or move it all
over to the web.
Post by Dirk Munk
Pathworks had the Ericom VT emulator, it was the best one I've seen.
Perhaps VSI could approach them and see if they can supply a VT-only emulator.
Or just download PyTTY for free.
Dirk Munk
2017-03-01 13:36:42 UTC
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Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
So VMS needs a GUI.
Are you talkning about VMS the OS, or the applications?
For applications, everything is "on the web" today anyway.
First of all the OS, for applications you can do what you like, but Java
could also be used of course.
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
And we also know that the 'old' DecWindows interface is a bit obsolete.
Then what kind of GUI should VMS have?
Perhaps Java front ends that you can start from a simple terminal
interface, or from a browser with Web Start?
At least you don't need a non-free X-Windows server on your PC/Mac, just a
free Java package.
And now VT terminals are really gone, shouldn't VMS be packed with a
Windows, Linux and MAC VT emulator that can do everything a real VT
terminal can do?
After all, VMS applications that were designed using the more advanced
possibilities of VT terminals should work properly on terminal emulators also.
Don't they? Maybe remove those "advanced possibilities" or move it all
over to the web.
No, they don't. And why should legacy applications have to be changed?
Features as double height, double width characters, bold, blinking, even
coloured characters can be very useful.

And what is 'the web'? That's just a word.
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
Pathworks had the Ericom VT emulator, it was the best one I've seen.
Perhaps VSI could approach them and see if they can supply a VT-only emulator.
Or just download PyTTY for free.
Or Dave's telnet for free, which is a proper VT320 emulation.
Jan-Erik Soderholm
2017-03-01 13:56:28 UTC
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Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
So VMS needs a GUI.
Are you talkning about VMS the OS, or the applications?
For applications, everything is "on the web" today anyway.
First of all the OS, for applications you can do what you like, but Java
could also be used of course.
So the question is how to get something like the "Windows Explorer"
on VMS. I do not see a full GUI for everything in VMS comming soon.
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
And we also know that the 'old' DecWindows interface is a bit obsolete.
Then what kind of GUI should VMS have?
Perhaps Java front ends that you can start from a simple terminal
interface, or from a browser with Web Start?
At least you don't need a non-free X-Windows server on your PC/Mac, just a
free Java package.
And now VT terminals are really gone, shouldn't VMS be packed with a
Windows, Linux and MAC VT emulator that can do everything a real VT
terminal can do?
After all, VMS applications that were designed using the more advanced
possibilities of VT terminals should work properly on terminal emulators also.
Don't they? Maybe remove those "advanced possibilities" or move it all
over to the web.
No, they don't. And why should legacy applications have to be changed?
Becuse the world at large is changing?
Post by Dirk Munk
Features as double height, double width characters, bold, blinking, even
coloured characters can be very useful.
Didn't know there was an issue with them? Not as I have
seen in PuTTY at least. There was some thread a year ago or so
with some "VT-test" script or image provided. I do not think
I menage to reproduce the issues reported on my environment.

Well, apart from *coloured* characters maybe... :-)
Dirk Munk
2017-03-01 15:15:03 UTC
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Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
So VMS needs a GUI.
Are you talkning about VMS the OS, or the applications?
For applications, everything is "on the web" today anyway.
First of all the OS, for applications you can do what you like, but Java
could also be used of course.
So the question is how to get something like the "Windows Explorer"
on VMS. I do not see a full GUI for everything in VMS comming soon.
Neither do I, but you have to set up a policy, a direction. If a VMS
utility gets a GUI, how will it be done. Will it be X-Windows, or
something else like Java?
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
And we also know that the 'old' DecWindows interface is a bit obsolete.
Then what kind of GUI should VMS have?
Perhaps Java front ends that you can start from a simple terminal
interface, or from a browser with Web Start?
At least you don't need a non-free X-Windows server on your PC/Mac, just a
free Java package.
And now VT terminals are really gone, shouldn't VMS be packed with a
Windows, Linux and MAC VT emulator that can do everything a real VT
terminal can do?
After all, VMS applications that were designed using the more advanced
possibilities of VT terminals should work properly on terminal emulators also.
Don't they? Maybe remove those "advanced possibilities" or move it all
over to the web.
No, they don't. And why should legacy applications have to be changed?
Becuse the world at large is changing?
Perhaps, but then you would change the whole interface.
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
Features as double height, double width characters, bold, blinking, even
coloured characters can be very useful.
Didn't know there was an issue with them? Not as I have
seen in PuTTY at least. There was some thread a year ago or so
with some "VT-test" script or image provided. I do not think
I menage to reproduce the issues reported on my environment.
Well, apart from *coloured* characters maybe... :-)
Jan-Erik Soderholm
2017-03-01 15:28:44 UTC
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Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
So VMS needs a GUI.
Are you talkning about VMS the OS, or the applications?
For applications, everything is "on the web" today anyway.
First of all the OS, for applications you can do what you like, but Java
could also be used of course.
So the question is how to get something like the "Windows Explorer"
on VMS. I do not see a full GUI for everything in VMS comming soon.
Neither do I, but you have to set up a policy, a direction. If a VMS
utility gets a GUI,
That is a very big "if"... :-)
Post by Dirk Munk
how will it be done. Will it be X-Windows, or something
else like Java?
Maybe (or probably) a browser client frontend and a VMS server process.
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
And we also know that the 'old' DecWindows interface is a bit obsolete.
Then what kind of GUI should VMS have?
Perhaps Java front ends that you can start from a simple terminal
interface, or from a browser with Web Start?
At least you don't need a non-free X-Windows server on your PC/Mac, just a
free Java package.
And now VT terminals are really gone, shouldn't VMS be packed with a
Windows, Linux and MAC VT emulator that can do everything a real VT
terminal can do?
After all, VMS applications that were designed using the more advanced
possibilities of VT terminals should work properly on terminal emulators also.
Don't they? Maybe remove those "advanced possibilities" or move it all
over to the web.
No, they don't. And why should legacy applications have to be changed?
Becuse the world at large is changing?
Perhaps, but then you would change the whole interface.
No, just the things that doesn't work with common terminal
emulators, if that is anything at all, I'm not sure. Maybe
you are describing a problem that doesn't exist, I don't know.

And are there still any "legacy VMS applications" that uses X?

Anyway, I'm probably not the right person to talk about GUI's
on VMS. I have never so far with 25 years of constant VMS-only
work ever used a (native) VMS-GUI.

When it comes to code/application development I see a future
with PC based EDIs that integrates with the VMS systems. Not
development using a GUI directly on the VMS environment.
Dirk Munk
2017-03-01 15:57:24 UTC
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Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
So VMS needs a GUI.
Are you talkning about VMS the OS, or the applications?
For applications, everything is "on the web" today anyway.
First of all the OS, for applications you can do what you like, but Java
could also be used of course.
So the question is how to get something like the "Windows Explorer"
on VMS. I do not see a full GUI for everything in VMS comming soon.
Neither do I, but you have to set up a policy, a direction. If a VMS
utility gets a GUI,
That is a very big "if"... :-)
Post by Dirk Munk
how will it be done. Will it be X-Windows, or something
else like Java?
Maybe (or probably) a browser client frontend and a VMS server process.
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
And we also know that the 'old' DecWindows interface is a bit obsolete.
Then what kind of GUI should VMS have?
Perhaps Java front ends that you can start from a simple terminal
interface, or from a browser with Web Start?
At least you don't need a non-free X-Windows server on your PC/Mac, just a
free Java package.
And now VT terminals are really gone, shouldn't VMS be packed with a
Windows, Linux and MAC VT emulator that can do everything a real VT
terminal can do?
After all, VMS applications that were designed using the more advanced
possibilities of VT terminals should work properly on terminal emulators also.
Don't they? Maybe remove those "advanced possibilities" or move it all
over to the web.
No, they don't. And why should legacy applications have to be changed?
Becuse the world at large is changing?
Perhaps, but then you would change the whole interface.
No, just the things that doesn't work with common terminal
emulators, if that is anything at all, I'm not sure. Maybe
you are describing a problem that doesn't exist, I don't know.
And are there still any "legacy VMS applications" that uses X?
Oh yes, there were quite a few graphical applications on VMS.
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Anyway, I'm probably not the right person to talk about GUI's
on VMS. I have never so far with 25 years of constant VMS-only
work ever used a (native) VMS-GUI.
When it comes to code/application development I see a future
with PC based EDIs that integrates with the VMS systems. Not
development using a GUI directly on the VMS environment.
I certainly did. I started out with a VaxStation 3100, decades ago.
Later I got a VaxStation 4000. It is a great way of working with VMS.
Jan-Erik Soderholm
2017-03-01 16:07:49 UTC
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Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
So VMS needs a GUI.
Are you talkning about VMS the OS, or the applications?
For applications, everything is "on the web" today anyway.
First of all the OS, for applications you can do what you like, but Java
could also be used of course.
So the question is how to get something like the "Windows Explorer"
on VMS. I do not see a full GUI for everything in VMS comming soon.
Neither do I, but you have to set up a policy, a direction. If a VMS
utility gets a GUI,
That is a very big "if"... :-)
Post by Dirk Munk
how will it be done. Will it be X-Windows, or something
else like Java?
Maybe (or probably) a browser client frontend and a VMS server process.
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
And we also know that the 'old' DecWindows interface is a bit obsolete.
Then what kind of GUI should VMS have?
Perhaps Java front ends that you can start from a simple terminal
interface, or from a browser with Web Start?
At least you don't need a non-free X-Windows server on your PC/Mac, just a
free Java package.
And now VT terminals are really gone, shouldn't VMS be packed with a
Windows, Linux and MAC VT emulator that can do everything a real VT
terminal can do?
After all, VMS applications that were designed using the more advanced
possibilities of VT terminals should work properly on terminal emulators also.
Don't they? Maybe remove those "advanced possibilities" or move it all
over to the web.
No, they don't. And why should legacy applications have to be changed?
Becuse the world at large is changing?
Perhaps, but then you would change the whole interface.
No, just the things that doesn't work with common terminal
emulators, if that is anything at all, I'm not sure. Maybe
you are describing a problem that doesn't exist, I don't know.
And are there still any "legacy VMS applications" that uses X?
Oh yes, there were quite a few graphical applications on VMS.
Yes I know there *were*. Not what I asked about. Never mind. :-)
Dirk Munk
2017-03-01 16:23:48 UTC
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Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
So VMS needs a GUI.
Are you talkning about VMS the OS, or the applications?
For applications, everything is "on the web" today anyway.
First of all the OS, for applications you can do what you like, but Java
could also be used of course.
So the question is how to get something like the "Windows Explorer"
on VMS. I do not see a full GUI for everything in VMS comming soon.
Neither do I, but you have to set up a policy, a direction. If a VMS
utility gets a GUI,
That is a very big "if"... :-)
Post by Dirk Munk
how will it be done. Will it be X-Windows, or something
else like Java?
Maybe (or probably) a browser client frontend and a VMS server process.
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
And we also know that the 'old' DecWindows interface is a bit obsolete.
Then what kind of GUI should VMS have?
Perhaps Java front ends that you can start from a simple terminal
interface, or from a browser with Web Start?
At least you don't need a non-free X-Windows server on your PC/Mac, just a
free Java package.
And now VT terminals are really gone, shouldn't VMS be packed with a
Windows, Linux and MAC VT emulator that can do everything a real VT
terminal can do?
After all, VMS applications that were designed using the more advanced
possibilities of VT terminals should work properly on terminal
emulators also.
Don't they? Maybe remove those "advanced possibilities" or move it all
over to the web.
No, they don't. And why should legacy applications have to be changed?
Becuse the world at large is changing?
Perhaps, but then you would change the whole interface.
No, just the things that doesn't work with common terminal
emulators, if that is anything at all, I'm not sure. Maybe
you are describing a problem that doesn't exist, I don't know.
And are there still any "legacy VMS applications" that uses X?
Oh yes, there were quite a few graphical applications on VMS.
Yes I know there *were*. Not what I asked about. Never mind. :-)
I'm not quite sure why you apparently seem to think that only VT based
VMS applications survived so far.

It is some years back, but I saw a cluster of very old VMS Alpha
workstations doing very important work.
Bill Gunshannon
2017-03-01 16:31:12 UTC
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Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
So VMS needs a GUI.
Are you talkning about VMS the OS, or the applications?
For applications, everything is "on the web" today anyway.
First of all the OS, for applications you can do what you like, but Java
could also be used of course.
So the question is how to get something like the "Windows Explorer"
on VMS. I do not see a full GUI for everything in VMS comming soon.
Neither do I, but you have to set up a policy, a direction. If a VMS
utility gets a GUI,
That is a very big "if"... :-)
Post by Dirk Munk
how will it be done. Will it be X-Windows, or something
else like Java?
Maybe (or probably) a browser client frontend and a VMS server process.
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
And we also know that the 'old' DecWindows interface is a bit obsolete.
Then what kind of GUI should VMS have?
Perhaps Java front ends that you can start from a simple terminal
interface, or from a browser with Web Start?
At least you don't need a non-free X-Windows server on your PC/Mac, just a
free Java package.
And now VT terminals are really gone, shouldn't VMS be packed with a
Windows, Linux and MAC VT emulator that can do everything a real VT
terminal can do?
After all, VMS applications that were designed using the more advanced
possibilities of VT terminals should work properly on terminal emulators also.
Don't they? Maybe remove those "advanced possibilities" or move it all
over to the web.
No, they don't. And why should legacy applications have to be changed?
Becuse the world at large is changing?
Perhaps, but then you would change the whole interface.
No, just the things that doesn't work with common terminal
emulators, if that is anything at all, I'm not sure. Maybe
you are describing a problem that doesn't exist, I don't know.
And are there still any "legacy VMS applications" that uses X?
Oh yes, there were quite a few graphical applications on VMS.
I seem to remember running WordPerfect at one time. But it
might have been a beta evaluation that never went to market.
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Anyway, I'm probably not the right person to talk about GUI's
on VMS. I have never so far with 25 years of constant VMS-only
work ever used a (native) VMS-GUI.
When it comes to code/application development I see a future
with PC based EDIs that integrates with the VMS systems. Not
development using a GUI directly on the VMS environment.
I certainly did. I started out with a VaxStation 3100, decades ago.
Later I got a VaxStation 4000. It is a great way of working with VMS.
I still have VaxStstion 3100's (that work!!!) I also have a VXT-2000+.
The only problem is finding monitors they can use. At the moment all
DECWindows has to be to XMing on a PC.

bill.
Arne Vajhøj
2017-03-02 01:22:44 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
No, just the things that doesn't work with common terminal
emulators, if that is anything at all, I'm not sure. Maybe
you are describing a problem that doesn't exist, I don't know.
And are there still any "legacy VMS applications" that uses X?
Oh yes, there were quite a few graphical applications on VMS.
I seem to remember running WordPerfect at one time. But it
might have been a beta evaluation that never went to market.
It went to market. But it was not a graphical version.

Arne
Bill Gunshannon
2017-03-02 02:45:53 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
No, just the things that doesn't work with common terminal
emulators, if that is anything at all, I'm not sure. Maybe
you are describing a problem that doesn't exist, I don't know.
And are there still any "legacy VMS applications" that uses X?
Oh yes, there were quite a few graphical applications on VMS.
I seem to remember running WordPerfect at one time. But it
might have been a beta evaluation that never went to market.
It went to market. But it was not a graphical version.
I think there was, but as I said I don't think it ever went
to market as a product. We had a version for the Sparc, too.

bill
Arne Vajhøj
2017-03-02 03:10:30 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
No, just the things that doesn't work with common terminal
emulators, if that is anything at all, I'm not sure. Maybe
you are describing a problem that doesn't exist, I don't know.
And are there still any "legacy VMS applications" that uses X?
Oh yes, there were quite a few graphical applications on VMS.
I seem to remember running WordPerfect at one time. But it
might have been a beta evaluation that never went to market.
It went to market. But it was not a graphical version.
I think there was, but as I said I don't think it ever went
to market as a product. We had a version for the Sparc, too.
The WP for VMS that sold pretty well around 1990 was definitely
VT based.

But some googling indicates that several years later indeed
a Motif version of WP 7 was available for VMS.

Arne
Simon Clubley
2017-03-01 18:55:45 UTC
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Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
And are there still any "legacy VMS applications" that uses X?
Oh yes, there were quite a few graphical applications on VMS.
And Tektronix 4014 support in some environments was a required item
at one time...

(Jan-Erik was asking about _current_ VMS X applications.)

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
Bill Gunshannon
2017-03-01 20:03:22 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
And are there still any "legacy VMS applications" that uses X?
Oh yes, there were quite a few graphical applications on VMS.
And Tektronix 4014 support in some environments was a required item
at one time...
(Jan-Erik was asking about _current_ VMS X applications.)
Other than some highly targeted business applications just how many
non-X general purpose applications are there for VMS?

bill
David Froble
2017-03-01 22:19:22 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
And are there still any "legacy VMS applications" that uses X?
Oh yes, there were quite a few graphical applications on VMS.
And Tektronix 4014 support in some environments was a required item
at one time...
(Jan-Erik was asking about _current_ VMS X applications.)
Other than some highly targeted business applications just how many
non-X general purpose applications are there for VMS?
bill
Interesting discussion. Meaningful? Perhaps not.

I'm willing to bet that there is no entity that knows all the ways in which VMS
has been used, past or current. For anyone to say that some things are no
longer used is just bullshit. Some might prefer a browser user interface. Some
might prefer X. Some might prefer the VT terminal stuff, either actual
terminals, or terminal emulators.

There have been numerous studies of Codis customers. Probably about every time
one asks for a port to weendoze. The results have always shown that for some
tasks, an experienced user will perform much faster on the character call
terminal user interface. As for non-experienced users, why would anyone want to
have such?

Sure, there are applications where the terminal interface falls down. Probably
the same for X, though I do not have personal experience there.

We've got some apps where people are using tablets and smart phones. The key
things is, there is no one solution that fits all uses.

I had a VAXstation 4000 VLC for a while. I just could not use it. I'm used to
a weendoze GUI, 2K, XP, and having to stop and think about the differences just
slowed me down, and irritated me. I use SmarTerm on weendoze with 19 inch (not
widescreen) monitors. Works for me. Just wish that larger non-widescreen
monitors were available at a reasonable cost.
Simon Clubley
2017-03-02 00:42:37 UTC
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Post by David Froble
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
And are there still any "legacy VMS applications" that uses X?
Oh yes, there were quite a few graphical applications on VMS.
And Tektronix 4014 support in some environments was a required item
at one time...
(Jan-Erik was asking about _current_ VMS X applications.)
Other than some highly targeted business applications just how many
non-X general purpose applications are there for VMS?
At one time, DEC used to publish a really big book listing those
applications.

At one time, you used to be able to run Lotus 1-2-3 and WordPerfect
on VMS, neither of which required a GUI.

However, I strongly suspect that only a small fraction of these
applications are still currently available for VMS.
Post by David Froble
Post by Bill Gunshannon
bill
Interesting discussion. Meaningful? Perhaps not.
I'm willing to bet that there is no entity that knows all the ways in which VMS
has been used, past or current. For anyone to say that some things are no
longer used is just bullshit. Some might prefer a browser user interface. Some
might prefer X. Some might prefer the VT terminal stuff, either actual
terminals, or terminal emulators.
There have been numerous studies of Codis customers. Probably about every time
one asks for a port to weendoze. The results have always shown that for some
tasks, an experienced user will perform much faster on the character call
terminal user interface. As for non-experienced users, why would anyone want to
have such?
There's absolutely no reason why you can't create a character cell
type application which runs on Windows.
Post by David Froble
Sure, there are applications where the terminal interface falls down. Probably
the same for X, though I do not have personal experience there.
We've got some apps where people are using tablets and smart phones. The key
things is, there is no one solution that fits all uses.
I had a VAXstation 4000 VLC for a while. I just could not use it. I'm used to
a weendoze GUI, 2K, XP, and having to stop and think about the differences just
slowed me down, and irritated me. I use SmarTerm on weendoze with 19 inch (not
widescreen) monitors. Works for me. Just wish that larger non-widescreen
monitors were available at a reasonable cost.
I don't understand why you want 4:3 or 5:4 style displays instead of
the widescreen 16:9 type screens. The widescreen monitors have so
many advantages to them including being able to fit more of your
terminal sessions side-by-side on the screen at the same time.

Video content is all pretty much widescreen format as well these days.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
David Froble
2017-03-02 03:59:09 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
Post by David Froble
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
And are there still any "legacy VMS applications" that uses X?
Oh yes, there were quite a few graphical applications on VMS.
And Tektronix 4014 support in some environments was a required item
at one time...
(Jan-Erik was asking about _current_ VMS X applications.)
Other than some highly targeted business applications just how many
non-X general purpose applications are there for VMS?
At one time, DEC used to publish a really big book listing those
applications.
At one time, you used to be able to run Lotus 1-2-3 and WordPerfect
on VMS, neither of which required a GUI.
However, I strongly suspect that only a small fraction of these
applications are still currently available for VMS.
Post by David Froble
Post by Bill Gunshannon
bill
Interesting discussion. Meaningful? Perhaps not.
I'm willing to bet that there is no entity that knows all the ways in which VMS
has been used, past or current. For anyone to say that some things are no
longer used is just bullshit. Some might prefer a browser user interface. Some
might prefer X. Some might prefer the VT terminal stuff, either actual
terminals, or terminal emulators.
There have been numerous studies of Codis customers. Probably about every time
one asks for a port to weendoze. The results have always shown that for some
tasks, an experienced user will perform much faster on the character call
terminal user interface. As for non-experienced users, why would anyone want to
have such?
There's absolutely no reason why you can't create a character cell
type application which runs on Windows.
Post by David Froble
Sure, there are applications where the terminal interface falls down. Probably
the same for X, though I do not have personal experience there.
We've got some apps where people are using tablets and smart phones. The key
things is, there is no one solution that fits all uses.
I had a VAXstation 4000 VLC for a while. I just could not use it. I'm used to
a weendoze GUI, 2K, XP, and having to stop and think about the differences just
slowed me down, and irritated me. I use SmarTerm on weendoze with 19 inch (not
widescreen) monitors. Works for me. Just wish that larger non-widescreen
monitors were available at a reasonable cost.
I don't understand why you want 4:3 or 5:4 style displays instead of
the widescreen 16:9 type screens. The widescreen monitors have so
many advantages to them including being able to fit more of your
terminal sessions side-by-side on the screen at the same time.
By doing so, I'm assuming that you have smaller font, or less lines per screen?

I don't use multiple windows when working. Maybe it's just me, but too many
windows are just confusing. I do use multiple sessions, which I can toggle
between when required, but for the most part, when coding, that's all I'm doing,
and a single screen does the job. What is important to me is having larger fonts.

If I could get a 25 inch 4:3, that's what I'd use.
Post by Simon Clubley
Video content is all pretty much widescreen format as well these days.
Simon.
Which is the problem I'm guessing. Economies of scale. Make plenty of wide
screens for TVs. Lower cost. No lower cost on 4:3.
John Reagan
2017-03-02 13:16:46 UTC
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Post by David Froble
I don't use multiple windows when working. Maybe it's just me, but too many
windows are just confusing.
If I could get a 25 inch 4:3, that's what I'd use.
I don't know I started on just a VT100 or LA120. I currently have 3 screens (20" 4x3) and that doesn't seem enough at times. I guess back in the beginning, I printed lots of things on our LP27/LP29s and had listings all over my desk. I probably just print one or two listings a year on my laser printer now.
Simon Clubley
2017-03-03 18:30:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Froble
Post by Simon Clubley
I don't understand why you want 4:3 or 5:4 style displays instead of
the widescreen 16:9 type screens. The widescreen monitors have so
many advantages to them including being able to fit more of your
terminal sessions side-by-side on the screen at the same time.
By doing so, I'm assuming that you have smaller font, or less lines per screen?
No. The last non-16:9 screen I used was a 1280x1024. My current monitors
are 24 inch 1920x1080 so I have more pixels vertically. I also get to
choose a font which is comfortable for me. My current terminal sessions,
including this one, typically have a screen height of around 52 lines.
Post by David Froble
I don't use multiple windows when working. Maybe it's just me, but too many
windows are just confusing. I do use multiple sessions, which I can toggle
between when required, but for the most part, when coding, that's all I'm doing,
and a single screen does the job. What is important to me is having larger fonts.
It's just you.

Multiple terminal sessions and multiple windows containing reference
material are normal for me.
Post by David Froble
If I could get a 25 inch 4:3, that's what I'd use.
Post by Simon Clubley
Video content is all pretty much widescreen format as well these days.
Simon.
Which is the problem I'm guessing. Economies of scale. Make plenty of wide
screens for TVs. Lower cost. No lower cost on 4:3.
Only it's not a problem.

I would never go back to a 4:3 or 5:4 monitor after using a 16:9.

The same is true for TVs as well. I will never be going back to
a 4:3 TV either. The 16:9 format just has too many advantages
to seriously consider that.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
hb
2017-03-02 11:54:07 UTC
Reply
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Post by Simon Clubley
At one time, you used to be able to run Lotus 1-2-3 and WordPerfect
on VMS, neither of which required a GUI.
However, I strongly suspect that only a small fraction of these
applications are still currently available for VMS.
Lotus 1-2-3 was for VAX, only, VT based. You need a license. Should work
on current VAXes, aka simh. I doubt that the kits were on a CONDIST. If
you VEST the images, you can run them on Alpha. Worked for me. AESTing
the VESTed images was possible, but the result didn't work: hangs, which
seemed to be AST related.
Simon Clubley
2017-03-03 18:37:57 UTC
Reply
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Post by hb
Post by Simon Clubley
At one time, you used to be able to run Lotus 1-2-3 and WordPerfect
on VMS, neither of which required a GUI.
However, I strongly suspect that only a small fraction of these
applications are still currently available for VMS.
Lotus 1-2-3 was for VAX, only, VT based. You need a license. Should work
on current VAXes, aka simh. I doubt that the kits were on a CONDIST. If
you VEST the images, you can run them on Alpha. Worked for me. AESTing
the VESTed images was possible, but the result didn't work: hangs, which
seemed to be AST related.
I ran both of those in production at one time.

Here in the UK, they were third party supplied and came on either
TK50 or CD-ROM. (I can't remember which architectures and products
came on which media.)

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
Arne Vajhøj
2017-03-02 01:30:51 UTC
Reply
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
Other than some highly targeted business applications just how many
non-X general purpose applications are there for VMS?
There must be some. Otherwise there would not be any VMS.

But it is probably a rather short list today.

RDB and Oracle DB comes to my mind.

Arne
Bill Gunshannon
2017-03-02 02:49:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Other than some highly targeted business applications just how many
non-X general purpose applications are there for VMS?
There must be some. Otherwise there would not be any VMS.
But it is probably a rather short list today.
I just thought that VMS was probably the last bastion of the
non-COTS application.
Post by Arne Vajhøj
RDB and Oracle DB comes to my mind.
I hope there's more than that. While RDB is VMS only, Oracle
is not. And the functionality itself does not require VMS.
That being the case it would not bode well for VMS if this is
where they see its future.

bill
Arne Vajhøj
2017-03-02 02:58:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Other than some highly targeted business applications just how many
non-X general purpose applications are there for VMS?
There must be some. Otherwise there would not be any VMS.
But it is probably a rather short list today.
I just thought that VMS was probably the last bastion of the
non-COTS application.
There are lots of non-COTS stuff on other platforms as well.

But no one knows about them outside the company that developed
and use them.

On VMS and other platforms.

So very hard to estimate number of those.

COTS / general purpose stuff are public known.
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
RDB and Oracle DB comes to my mind.
I hope there's more than that. While RDB is VMS only, Oracle
is not. And the functionality itself does not require VMS.
That being the case it would not bode well for VMS if this is
where they see its future.
There most be more. But the list of commercial software
for VMS must be a lot shorter today than 25 years ago.

Arne
David Froble
2017-03-02 04:05:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Other than some highly targeted business applications just how many
non-X general purpose applications are there for VMS?
There must be some. Otherwise there would not be any VMS.
But it is probably a rather short list today.
I just thought that VMS was probably the last bastion of the
non-COTS application.
There are lots of non-COTS stuff on other platforms as well.
But no one knows about them outside the company that developed
and use them.
On VMS and other platforms.
So very hard to estimate number of those.
COTS / general purpose stuff are public known.
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
RDB and Oracle DB comes to my mind.
I hope there's more than that. While RDB is VMS only, Oracle
is not. And the functionality itself does not require VMS.
That being the case it would not bode well for VMS if this is
where they see its future.
There most be more. But the list of commercial software
for VMS must be a lot shorter today than 25 years ago.
Commercial software firms saw the writing on the wall years ago. They went
elsewhere.

I'm guessing that the people who didn't leave VMS were those with in-house
developed applications. Such would be more closely tailored to the company's
requirements, and thus harder to find replacements elsewhere.

As for Rdb and Oracle, those are databases, not applications. Databases store
data. Applications do a needed task.
Bill Gunshannon
2017-03-02 14:12:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Froble
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Other than some highly targeted business applications just how many
non-X general purpose applications are there for VMS?
There must be some. Otherwise there would not be any VMS.
But it is probably a rather short list today.
I just thought that VMS was probably the last bastion of the
non-COTS application.
There are lots of non-COTS stuff on other platforms as well.
But no one knows about them outside the company that developed
and use them.
On VMS and other platforms.
So very hard to estimate number of those.
COTS / general purpose stuff are public known.
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
RDB and Oracle DB comes to my mind.
I hope there's more than that. While RDB is VMS only, Oracle
is not. And the functionality itself does not require VMS.
That being the case it would not bode well for VMS if this is
where they see its future.
There most be more. But the list of commercial software
for VMS must be a lot shorter today than 25 years ago.
Commercial software firms saw the writing on the wall years ago. They
went elsewhere.
I'm guessing that the people who didn't leave VMS were those with
in-house developed applications. Such would be more closely tailored to
the company's requirements, and thus harder to find replacements elsewhere.
As for Rdb and Oracle, those are databases, not applications. Databases
store data. Applications do a needed task.
Semantics. A database program is an application. My point
was that if VMS is basing its survival on this it is a very
dismal outlook.

I know people want to see VMS as just a server OS, but reality
may dictate otherwise. I would not write off VMS as a desktop
out of hand. There might be an advantage to having the same
OS from datacenter to desktop, Hmmmm.... Haven't we heard that
before.

bill
David Froble
2017-03-02 19:43:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Other than some highly targeted business applications just how many
non-X general purpose applications are there for VMS?
There must be some. Otherwise there would not be any VMS.
But it is probably a rather short list today.
I just thought that VMS was probably the last bastion of the
non-COTS application.
There are lots of non-COTS stuff on other platforms as well.
But no one knows about them outside the company that developed
and use them.
On VMS and other platforms.
So very hard to estimate number of those.
COTS / general purpose stuff are public known.
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
RDB and Oracle DB comes to my mind.
I hope there's more than that. While RDB is VMS only, Oracle
is not. And the functionality itself does not require VMS.
That being the case it would not bode well for VMS if this is
where they see its future.
There most be more. But the list of commercial software
for VMS must be a lot shorter today than 25 years ago.
Commercial software firms saw the writing on the wall years ago. They
went elsewhere.
I'm guessing that the people who didn't leave VMS were those with
in-house developed applications. Such would be more closely tailored to
the company's requirements, and thus harder to find replacements elsewhere.
As for Rdb and Oracle, those are databases, not applications. Databases
store data. Applications do a needed task.
Semantics. A database program is an application. My point
was that if VMS is basing its survival on this it is a very
dismal outlook.
I know people want to see VMS as just a server OS, but reality
may dictate otherwise. I would not write off VMS as a desktop
out of hand. There might be an advantage to having the same
OS from datacenter to desktop, Hmmmm.... Haven't we heard that
before.
I would not disagree with you. However, I see some obstacles.

For a while I'd have claimed that weendoze GUI user interface would be what most
would expect, and anything else would be some amount of learning curve, and
perhaps not appreciated. That would be for Weendoze 95 through XP. But then
Microsoft themselves overturned the apple (weendoze) cart starting with Weendoze
7, and then it got worse.

There is a lot to be said for "meeting expectations" ....
Bill Gunshannon
2017-03-02 20:29:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Froble
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Other than some highly targeted business applications just how many
non-X general purpose applications are there for VMS?
There must be some. Otherwise there would not be any VMS.
But it is probably a rather short list today.
I just thought that VMS was probably the last bastion of the
non-COTS application.
There are lots of non-COTS stuff on other platforms as well.
But no one knows about them outside the company that developed
and use them.
On VMS and other platforms.
So very hard to estimate number of those.
COTS / general purpose stuff are public known.
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
RDB and Oracle DB comes to my mind.
I hope there's more than that. While RDB is VMS only, Oracle
is not. And the functionality itself does not require VMS.
That being the case it would not bode well for VMS if this is
where they see its future.
There most be more. But the list of commercial software
for VMS must be a lot shorter today than 25 years ago.
Commercial software firms saw the writing on the wall years ago. They
went elsewhere.
I'm guessing that the people who didn't leave VMS were those with
in-house developed applications. Such would be more closely tailored to
the company's requirements, and thus harder to find replacements elsewhere.
As for Rdb and Oracle, those are databases, not applications. Databases
store data. Applications do a needed task.
Semantics. A database program is an application. My point
was that if VMS is basing its survival on this it is a very
dismal outlook.
I know people want to see VMS as just a server OS, but reality
may dictate otherwise. I would not write off VMS as a desktop
out of hand. There might be an advantage to having the same
OS from datacenter to desktop, Hmmmm.... Haven't we heard that
before.
I would not disagree with you. However, I see some obstacles.
For a while I'd have claimed that weendoze GUI user interface would be
what most would expect, and anything else would be some amount of
learning curve, and perhaps not appreciated. That would be for Weendoze
95 through XP. But then Microsoft themselves overturned the apple
(weendoze) cart starting with Weendoze 7, and then it got worse.
There is a lot to be said for "meeting expectations" ....
People give the Windows GUI a lot more credit than it deserves.
Linux is quite successful with a rather different GUI (several of
them actually). And there have been others. X has always offered
a number to choose from and people always have. Interestingly enough,
there even were a couple styled after Windows. They faded away as
users found the learning curve for different ones were really not
that steep.

I actually liked DECWindows in its day.

bill
j***@yahoo.co.uk
2017-03-02 20:37:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Froble
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Other than some highly targeted business applications just how many
non-X general purpose applications are there for VMS?
There must be some. Otherwise there would not be any VMS.
But it is probably a rather short list today.
I just thought that VMS was probably the last bastion of the
non-COTS application.
There are lots of non-COTS stuff on other platforms as well.
But no one knows about them outside the company that developed
and use them.
On VMS and other platforms.
So very hard to estimate number of those.
COTS / general purpose stuff are public known.
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
RDB and Oracle DB comes to my mind.
I hope there's more than that. While RDB is VMS only, Oracle
is not. And the functionality itself does not require VMS.
That being the case it would not bode well for VMS if this is
where they see its future.
There most be more. But the list of commercial software
for VMS must be a lot shorter today than 25 years ago.
Commercial software firms saw the writing on the wall years ago. They
went elsewhere.
I'm guessing that the people who didn't leave VMS were those with
in-house developed applications. Such would be more closely tailored to
the company's requirements, and thus harder to find replacements elsewhere.
As for Rdb and Oracle, those are databases, not applications. Databases
store data. Applications do a needed task.
Semantics. A database program is an application. My point
was that if VMS is basing its survival on this it is a very
dismal outlook.
I know people want to see VMS as just a server OS, but reality
may dictate otherwise. I would not write off VMS as a desktop
out of hand. There might be an advantage to having the same
OS from datacenter to desktop, Hmmmm.... Haven't we heard that
before.
I would not disagree with you. However, I see some obstacles.
For a while I'd have claimed that weendoze GUI user interface would be what most
would expect, and anything else would be some amount of learning curve, and
perhaps not appreciated. That would be for Weendoze 95 through XP. But then
Microsoft themselves overturned the apple (weendoze) cart starting with Weendoze
7, and then it got worse.
There is a lot to be said for "meeting expectations" ....
Thing is, the last decade or so has demonstrated that
whatever the typical IT Department may have believed,
one size does not reliably fit all, but it's handy for
vendors and some IT departments to pretend it does.

In fact the last few days have reinforced the fact that
one size does not fit all. Who'd have wanted e.g.
their factory control (never mind their air traffic
control) implemented on top of AWS/S3/etc this last few
days?

How can it not now be clear that regardless of OS, when
continuity and robustness is financially or otherwise
important, *understanding* of architecture has some value?
You (and hopefully your customers) already knew that.

Many of Amazon's S3 customers have just been reminded
of that (see press for details). This news also reaches
people who aren't yet Amazon customes. Many of them
won't care, they just want "cheap", especially if on
paper it's simple, and that's OK, they can carry on
doing what they've been doing.

There is a corporate world far less visible than Amazon,
GoogleFace, etc. I recently had an unplanned conversation
with a utility technician last week (UK's Storm Doris).
He had no idea what my interests were. Without prompting,
he mentioned SCADA systems etc. Not the desktop/HMI side,
the hardcore stuff that *controls* things like utility
outstations, the kind of system that *has* to work, or
else.

The very experienced tech was telling me that the
PLC-centric stuff just a few years ago was great, but
newer kit seems to have a lot of problems with its bells
and whistles working reliably, and increasingly with the
reliability of its core control functionality.They've
migrated a lot of outstation stuff to Windows too,
apparently, because Windows is everywhere. Hmmm.


Whatcha got against Win7 anyway, it wasn't/isn't that
bad especially compared with what came afterwards and
what came immediately before (Vista, not WinXP)?
Wasn't it round that time that Office and stuff went
a bit weird (ribbons etc?)?
Bill Gunshannon
2017-03-02 21:26:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by j***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by David Froble
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by David Froble
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Other than some highly targeted business applications just how many
non-X general purpose applications are there for VMS?
There must be some. Otherwise there would not be any VMS.
But it is probably a rather short list today.
I just thought that VMS was probably the last bastion of the
non-COTS application.
There are lots of non-COTS stuff on other platforms as well.
But no one knows about them outside the company that developed
and use them.
On VMS and other platforms.
So very hard to estimate number of those.
COTS / general purpose stuff are public known.
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
RDB and Oracle DB comes to my mind.
I hope there's more than that. While RDB is VMS only, Oracle
is not. And the functionality itself does not require VMS.
That being the case it would not bode well for VMS if this is
where they see its future.
There most be more. But the list of commercial software
for VMS must be a lot shorter today than 25 years ago.
Commercial software firms saw the writing on the wall years ago. They
went elsewhere.
I'm guessing that the people who didn't leave VMS were those with
in-house developed applications. Such would be more closely tailored to
the company's requirements, and thus harder to find replacements elsewhere.
As for Rdb and Oracle, those are databases, not applications. Databases
store data. Applications do a needed task.
Semantics. A database program is an application. My point
was that if VMS is basing its survival on this it is a very
dismal outlook.
I know people want to see VMS as just a server OS, but reality
may dictate otherwise. I would not write off VMS as a desktop
out of hand. There might be an advantage to having the same
OS from datacenter to desktop, Hmmmm.... Haven't we heard that
before.
I would not disagree with you. However, I see some obstacles.
For a while I'd have claimed that weendoze GUI user interface would be what most
would expect, and anything else would be some amount of learning curve, and
perhaps not appreciated. That would be for Weendoze 95 through XP. But then
Microsoft themselves overturned the apple (weendoze) cart starting with Weendoze
7, and then it got worse.
There is a lot to be said for "meeting expectations" ....
Thing is, the last decade or so has demonstrated that
whatever the typical IT Department may have believed,
one size does not reliably fit all, but it's handy for
vendors and some IT departments to pretend it does.
In fact the last few days have reinforced the fact that
one size does not fit all. Who'd have wanted e.g.
their factory control (never mind their air traffic
control) implemented on top of AWS/S3/etc this last few
days?
How can it not now be clear that regardless of OS, when
continuity and robustness is financially or otherwise
important, *understanding* of architecture has some value?
You (and hopefully your customers) already knew that.
Many of Amazon's S3 customers have just been reminded
of that (see press for details). This news also reaches
people who aren't yet Amazon customes. Many of them
won't care, they just want "cheap", especially if on
paper it's simple, and that's OK, they can carry on
doing what they've been doing.
There is a corporate world far less visible than Amazon,
GoogleFace, etc. I recently had an unplanned conversation
with a utility technician last week (UK's Storm Doris).
He had no idea what my interests were. Without prompting,
he mentioned SCADA systems etc. Not the desktop/HMI side,
the hardcore stuff that *controls* things like utility
outstations, the kind of system that *has* to work, or
else.
The very experienced tech was telling me that the
PLC-centric stuff just a few years ago was great, but
newer kit seems to have a lot of problems with its bells
and whistles working reliably, and increasingly with the
reliability of its core control functionality.They've
migrated a lot of outstation stuff to Windows too,
apparently, because Windows is everywhere. Hmmm.
Whatcha got against Win7 anyway, it wasn't/isn't that
bad especially compared with what came afterwards and
what came immediately before (Vista, not WinXP)?
Wasn't it round that time that Office and stuff went
a bit weird (ribbons etc?)?
What was wrong with Vista? It was definitely better than XP (and
out lasted it, too). I use it as my primary Windows Desktop OS
but, sadly, Microsoft has decided to force the remainder of its
users off even though none of the new Windows versions actually
offer any improvement or even equivalency.

bill
Arne Vajhøj
2017-03-03 02:23:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bill Gunshannon
What was wrong with Vista? It was definitely better than XP (and
out lasted it, too).
Better is sort of subjective.

But I do not understand the outlasted comment.

Vista is 6 years newer than XP so it should outlast it.

But it really isn't. There are more XP systems around today
than Vista systems.
Post by Bill Gunshannon
I use it as my primary Windows Desktop OS
but, sadly, Microsoft has decided to force the remainder of its
users off even though none of the new Windows versions actually
offer any improvement or even equivalency.
Are you sure that you talk about Vista and not 7?

Arne
Bill Gunshannon
2017-03-03 03:07:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
What was wrong with Vista? It was definitely better than XP (and
out lasted it, too).
Better is sort of subjective.
But I do not understand the outlasted comment.
Vista is 6 years newer than XP so it should outlast it.
Are you sure about that? I was using Vista when 2000 was still
the common system. But I don't have any official timeline.
Post by Arne Vajhøj
But it really isn't. There are more XP systems around today
than Vista systems.
XP has been officially deprecated by Microsoft and they have done
a lot of underhanded things to force its demise. Vista is just
going into that phase and I am sure they will do the same thing
to it. It is already giving me repeated annoying popups about
EOL.
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
I use it as my primary Windows Desktop OS
but, sadly, Microsoft has decided to force the remainder of its
users off even though none of the new Windows versions actually
offer any improvement or even equivalency.
Are you sure that you talk about Vista and not 7?
While I have 7 and will probably have to move to it at some point,
I am talking Vista. Many businesses opted to stay with Vista when
XP was in its prime. I always thought that put me in good company.

bill
Arne Vajhøj
2017-03-03 03:11:05 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
What was wrong with Vista? It was definitely better than XP (and
out lasted it, too).
Better is sort of subjective.
But I do not understand the outlasted comment.
Vista is 6 years newer than XP so it should outlast it.
Are you sure about that? I was using Vista when 2000 was still
the common system. But I don't have any official timeline.
Yes.

Vista was released January 30th 2007.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Vista
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
I use it as my primary Windows Desktop OS
but, sadly, Microsoft has decided to force the remainder of its
users off even though none of the new Windows versions actually
offer any improvement or even equivalency.
Are you sure that you talk about Vista and not 7?
While I have 7 and will probably have to move to it at some point,
I am talking Vista. Many businesses opted to stay with Vista when
XP was in its prime. I always thought that put me in good company.
Vista replaced XP.

XP replaced ME and NT4.

Arne
j***@yahoo.co.uk
2017-03-03 08:48:25 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
What was wrong with Vista? It was definitely better than XP (and
out lasted it, too).
Better is sort of subjective.
But I do not understand the outlasted comment.
Vista is 6 years newer than XP so it should outlast it.
Are you sure about that? I was using Vista when 2000 was still
the common system. But I don't have any official timeline.
Yes.
Vista was released January 30th 2007.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Vista
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
I use it as my primary Windows Desktop OS
but, sadly, Microsoft has decided to force the remainder of its
users off even though none of the new Windows versions actually
offer any improvement or even equivalency.
Are you sure that you talk about Vista and not 7?
While I have 7 and will probably have to move to it at some point,
I am talking Vista. Many businesses opted to stay with Vista when
XP was in its prime. I always thought that put me in good company.
Vista replaced XP.
XP replaced ME and NT4.
Arne
Thank you for saving me the trouble. Bill does appear to
have his Windows crossed somewhere.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet

Although support for Windows XP nominally ended before
support for Windows Vista, there are large numbers of
(possibly ill advised) people and organisations still
using XP. Some are even paying big money to MS for
ongoing XP support.

I knew of very few people who used Vista at home, even
fewer who had it for business use, and the ones who I
knew personally were unhappy with it for reasons which
are widely documented, reasons which led to the relatively
early release of Windows 7. I wasn't impressed by Vista,
when occasionally asked to to provide support.

Win7 is the last Windows desktop I expect to have for my
own use, though I may see Windows 10 a bit elsewhere.

As others have noted, there is increasing fragmentation
between desktop OS and server OS. And niche OSes are
still with us in some cases.
Bill Gunshannon
2017-03-03 16:17:56 UTC
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Post by j***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
What was wrong with Vista? It was definitely better than XP (and
out lasted it, too).
Better is sort of subjective.
But I do not understand the outlasted comment.
Vista is 6 years newer than XP so it should outlast it.
Are you sure about that? I was using Vista when 2000 was still
the common system. But I don't have any official timeline.
Yes.
Vista was released January 30th 2007.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Vista
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
I use it as my primary Windows Desktop OS
but, sadly, Microsoft has decided to force the remainder of its
users off even though none of the new Windows versions actually
offer any improvement or even equivalency.
Are you sure that you talk about Vista and not 7?
While I have 7 and will probably have to move to it at some point,
I am talking Vista. Many businesses opted to stay with Vista when
XP was in its prime. I always thought that put me in good company.
Vista replaced XP.
XP replaced ME and NT4.
Arne
Thank you for saving me the trouble. Bill does appear to
have his Windows crossed somewhere.
As stated elsewhere, I saw NT -> 2000 -> XP and Vista showing up
in limited places somewhere in the mix. I saw enough problems
helping other people with XP while still running 2000 both in
the military and at the University to go to Vista instead for
my personal choice.
Post by j***@yahoo.co.uk
https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet
Although support for Windows XP nominally ended before
support for Windows Vista, there are large numbers of
(possibly ill advised) people and organisations still
using XP. Some are even paying big money to MS for
ongoing XP support.
I had heard there were people paying big bucks to continue to use
XP. Those who could not do that were literally forced off of XP
by the use of nasty additions to required updates. I am seeing the
same starting in Vista but I expect it will be much more aggressive.
Like stopping support for any kind of antivirus/malware on Vista making
it risky beyond the acceptable level to continue to use it. Of course,
in this case it probably backfires as I will likely bite the bullet and
move off ot Windows on the desktop entirely.
Post by j***@yahoo.co.uk
I knew of very few people who used Vista at home, even
fewer who had it for business use, and the ones who I
knew personally were unhappy with it for reasons which
are widely documented, reasons which led to the relatively
early release of Windows 7. I wasn't impressed by Vista,
when occasionally asked to to provide support.
Interestingly, there was both a business and a home version of Vista.
Never used the home version so I don't know what the difference was.
I guess because i didn't have any problems that I could directly
connect with Vista as opposed to any other Windows version. What were
some of them?
Post by j***@yahoo.co.uk
Win7 is the last Windows desktop I expect to have for my
own use, though I may see Windows 10 a bit elsewhere.
As others have noted, there is increasing fragmentation
between desktop OS and server OS. And niche OSes are
still with us in some cases.
I personally think if it weren't for the unfair business practices
that MS is still allowed to get away with you would see Linux Desktops
in stores everywhere. But as long as MS still sells more no one is in
a position to buck them to try and change that trend. Hard to win when
your opponent has the power of the US government helping them.


bill
Arne Vajhøj
2017-03-03 17:08:24 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
As stated elsewhere, I saw NT -> 2000 -> XP and Vista showing up
in limited places somewhere in the mix. I saw enough problems
helping other people with XP while still running 2000 both in
the military and at the University to go to Vista instead for
my personal choice.
Vista came way later than XP.

NT4 - 1996
2000 - 2000
XP - 2001
Vista - 2007
7 - 2009
Post by Bill Gunshannon
I had heard there were people paying big bucks to continue to use
XP. Those who could not do that were literally forced off of XP
by the use of nasty additions to required updates. I am seeing the
same starting in Vista but I expect it will be much more aggressive.
Like stopping support for any kind of antivirus/malware on Vista making
it risky beyond the acceptable level to continue to use it. Of course,
in this case it probably backfires as I will likely bite the bullet and
move off ot Windows on the desktop entirely.
Security updates on XP stopped April 8 2014.

They will stop on Vista April 11 2017 (1.5 month !).

Arne
Bill Gunshannon
2017-03-03 16:05:44 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
What was wrong with Vista? It was definitely better than XP (and
out lasted it, too).
Better is sort of subjective.
But I do not understand the outlasted comment.
Vista is 6 years newer than XP so it should outlast it.
Are you sure about that? I was using Vista when 2000 was still
the common system. But I don't have any official timeline.
Yes.
Vista was released January 30th 2007.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Vista
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
I use it as my primary Windows Desktop OS
but, sadly, Microsoft has decided to force the remainder of its
users off even though none of the new Windows versions actually
offer any improvement or even equivalency.
Are you sure that you talk about Vista and not 7?
While I have 7 and will probably have to move to it at some point,
I am talking Vista. Many businesses opted to stay with Vista when
XP was in its prime. I always thought that put me in good company.
Vista replaced XP.
XP replaced ME and NT4.
What? Did you miss 2000 entirely? Places I worked saw
NT -> 2000 -> XP. Businesses somehow ended up on Vista
instead of XP (which is the route I took). I always thought
of Vista as the red-haired step-child. :-)

bill
Arne Vajhøj
2017-03-03 16:59:17 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
I use it as my primary Windows Desktop OS
but, sadly, Microsoft has decided to force the remainder of its
users off even though none of the new Windows versions actually
offer any improvement or even equivalency.
Are you sure that you talk about Vista and not 7?
While I have 7 and will probably have to move to it at some point,
I am talking Vista. Many businesses opted to stay with Vista when
XP was in its prime. I always thought that put me in good company.
Vista replaced XP.
XP replaced ME and NT4.
What? Did you miss 2000 entirely?
Oops. Yes.

ME and 2000. Not ME and NT4.

Arne
Paul Sture
2017-03-03 20:00:24 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Vista replaced XP.
XP replaced ME and NT4.
What? Did you miss 2000 entirely? Places I worked saw
NT -> 2000 -> XP. Businesses somehow ended up on Vista
instead of XP (which is the route I took). I always thought
of Vista as the red-haired step-child. :-)
Quite a few places did miss 2000 entirely. The place where I was rolled
out a new deployment of NT4 to > 30,000 new PCs in 2000 or 2001. The
rollout project started well before Win2000 was released so it made
sense to stay with NT4.

Windows 2008 Server apparently shared the same source codebase as Vista.
After years of seeing XP around the place I found its desktop pleasantly
easy to use; I came to think of it as "Vista without the crap".
--
A supercomputer is a device for turning compute-bound problems into
I/O-bound problems. ---Ken Batcher
David Froble
2017-03-02 22:27:01 UTC
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Post by j***@yahoo.co.uk
Whatcha got against Win7 anyway, it wasn't/isn't that
bad especially compared with what came afterwards and
what came immediately before (Vista, not WinXP)?
Wasn't it round that time that Office and stuff went
a bit weird (ribbons etc?)?
I'm just not interested in learning a new user interface every couple of years.
I know why MS does it. To get people to purchase new stuff. One of DEC's
problems was how good it's stuff was. People didn't re-purchase so often.
That's why a support subscription for revenue makes so much sense. I'm still
running V7.2 on my VAX. Got the 7.3 CD, but can't be bothered to upgrade.
Jan-Erik Soderholm
2017-03-02 23:00:45 UTC
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Post by David Froble
Post by j***@yahoo.co.uk
Whatcha got against Win7 anyway, it wasn't/isn't that
bad especially compared with what came afterwards and
what came immediately before (Vista, not WinXP)?
Wasn't it round that time that Office and stuff went
a bit weird (ribbons etc?)?
I'm just not interested in learning a new user interface every couple of
years. I know why MS does it. To get people to purchase new stuff. One
of DEC's problems was how good it's stuff was. People didn't re-purchase
so often. That's why a support subscription for revenue makes so much
sense. I'm still running V7.2 on my VAX. Got the 7.3 CD, but can't be
bothered to upgrade.
I do not understand what you are talkning about.

I have used everything from DOS-only, through Win 3.1, XP, Win7
and now Win 10 and it has only been minor bits-n-pieces that one
has to look up between the different versions.

The gain in having an up-to-date work environment is worth
far more then the minutes spent at each upgrade.
John Reagan
2017-03-03 00:21:37 UTC
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Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by David Froble
Post by j***@yahoo.co.uk
Whatcha got against Win7 anyway, it wasn't/isn't that
bad especially compared with what came afterwards and
what came immediately before (Vista, not WinXP)?
Wasn't it round that time that Office and stuff went
a bit weird (ribbons etc?)?
I'm just not interested in learning a new user interface every couple of
years. I know why MS does it. To get people to purchase new stuff. One
of DEC's problems was how good it's stuff was. People didn't re-purchase
so often. That's why a support subscription for revenue makes so much
sense. I'm still running V7.2 on my VAX. Got the 7.3 CD, but can't be
bothered to upgrade.
I do not understand what you are talkning about.
I have used everything from DOS-only, through Win 3.1, XP, Win7
and now Win 10 and it has only been minor bits-n-pieces that one
has to look up between the different versions.
The gain in having an up-to-date work environment is worth
far more then the minutes spent at each upgrade.
Vista bothered me with the lack of the "traditional" start menu. There are addons to restore most of that. Fortunately it came back with W10. I use W7, W10, and macos daily. I really don't have much of a problem moving back and forth the the UIs. If you can do W7, then you can do W10.
Arne Vajhøj
2017-03-03 02:17:08 UTC
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Post by John Reagan
Vista bothered me with the lack of the "traditional" start menu.
There are addons to restore most of that. Fortunately it came back
with W10.
I assume you meant W8 not Vista??

Arne
Bill Gunshannon
2017-03-03 03:09:22 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by John Reagan
Vista bothered me with the lack of the "traditional" start menu.
There are addons to restore most of that. Fortunately it came back
with W10.
I assume you meant W8 not Vista??
I wondered about that because mine certainly has the old Start
Menu. But that isn't the reason I stayed with it. I use the
newer versions of Server which have done away with the Start
Menu and it doesn't give me any heartburn.

bill
a***@yahoo.com
2017-03-03 12:22:00 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by John Reagan
Vista bothered me with the lack of the "traditional" start menu.
There are addons to restore most of that. Fortunately it came back
with W10.
I assume you meant W8 not Vista??
I wondered about that because mine certainly has the old Start
Menu. But that isn't the reason I stayed with it. I use the
newer versions of Server which have done away with the Start
Menu and it doesn't give me any heartburn.
bill
If you like Vista, then you probably do not depend on command line too much.
Vista command line is badly broken relatively to both XP and 7.
For example, on Vista you can't drag&drop files and directories from Windows Explorer into command line.
Bill Gunshannon
2017-03-03 16:24:19 UTC
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Post by a***@yahoo.com
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by John Reagan
Vista bothered me with the lack of the "traditional" start menu.
There are addons to restore most of that. Fortunately it came back
with W10.
I assume you meant W8 not Vista??
I wondered about that because mine certainly has the old Start
Menu. But that isn't the reason I stayed with it. I use the
newer versions of Server which have done away with the Start
Menu and it doesn't give me any heartburn.
bill
If you like Vista, then you probably do not depend on command line too much.
Do you mean the command window? Use it all the time. And, I have
PowerShell too, but I don't use it much.
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Vista command line is badly broken relatively to both XP and 7.
For example, on Vista you can't drag&drop files and directories from Windows Explorer into command line.
Not even sure what that means or why one would want to do it.
I can say that in the ten or so years I have used Vista (don't
remember when I first started using it but it would have been
at most 2008) I have never run into anything anyone else could
do that I wanted to but couldn't.

bill
John Reagan
2017-03-03 13:41:13 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by John Reagan
Vista bothered me with the lack of the "traditional" start menu.
There are addons to restore most of that. Fortunately it came back
with W10.
I assume you meant W8 not Vista??
Arne
My bad. Yes W8. I don't think I ever touched Vista.
David Froble
2017-03-03 03:56:23 UTC
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Post by John Reagan
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by David Froble
Post by j***@yahoo.co.uk
Whatcha got against Win7 anyway, it wasn't/isn't that
bad especially compared with what came afterwards and
what came immediately before (Vista, not WinXP)?
Wasn't it round that time that Office and stuff went
a bit weird (ribbons etc?)?
I'm just not interested in learning a new user interface every couple of
years. I know why MS does it. To get people to purchase new stuff. One
of DEC's problems was how good it's stuff was. People didn't re-purchase
so often. That's why a support subscription for revenue makes so much
sense. I'm still running V7.2 on my VAX. Got the 7.3 CD, but can't be
bothered to upgrade.
I do not understand what you are talkning about.
I have used everything from DOS-only, through Win 3.1, XP, Win7
and now Win 10 and it has only been minor bits-n-pieces that one
has to look up between the different versions.
The gain in having an up-to-date work environment is worth
far more then the minutes spent at each upgrade.
Vista bothered me with the lack of the "traditional" start menu. There are addons to restore most of that. Fortunately it came back with W10. I use W7, W10, and macos daily. I really don't have much of a problem moving back and forth the the UIs. If you can do W7, then you can do W10.
Vista bothered me with it's constant nagging, "do you really want to do this",
and "do you really, really, want to do this", and such. It also seemed to try
to hide things, such as network set-up, and other stuff that maybe most casual
users wouldn't get into.

It's not that I cannot move between each user interface, it's that I don't WANT
to do so.
Arne Vajhøj
2017-03-04 01:56:40 UTC
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Post by j***@yahoo.co.uk
Thing is, the last decade or so has demonstrated that
whatever the typical IT Department may have believed,
one size does not reliably fit all, but it's handy for
vendors and some IT departments to pretend it does.
In fact the last few days have reinforced the fact that
one size does not fit all. Who'd have wanted e.g.
their factory control (never mind their air traffic
control) implemented on top of AWS/S3/etc this last few
days?
How can it not now be clear that regardless of OS, when
continuity and robustness is financially or otherwise
important, *understanding* of architecture has some value?
You (and hopefully your customers) already knew that.
Many of Amazon's S3 customers have just been reminded
of that (see press for details). This news also reaches
people who aren't yet Amazon customes. Many of them
won't care, they just want "cheap", especially if on
paper it's simple, and that's OK, they can carry on
doing what they've been doing.
I am not sure what you think S3 customers were reminded.

That a system administrator with full privs entering
the wrong command can have a disastrous impact?

They probably knew that.

Arne
Richard Maher
2017-03-02 22:52:19 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
I know people want to see VMS as just a server OS, but reality
may dictate otherwise. I
"Reality"??? You nostalgia junkies wouldn't know reality if it bit you
in the arse! There's more denial going on here than in an AA meeting.
Leave your sheltered workshops every now and then and see what normal
people are doing.
Post by Bill Gunshannon
would not write off VMS as a desktop
out of hand.
It was done 15 years ago. VMS desktop is shit. VMS Not being a commodity
server OS is what needs rectifying and the team seem to be actively
trying to rectify that problem.
Post by Bill Gunshannon
There might be an advantage to having the same
OS from datacenter to desktop, Hmmmm.... Haven't we heard that
before.
bill
Arne Vajhøj
2017-03-03 01:47:51 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
I know people want to see VMS as just a server OS, but reality
may dictate otherwise. I would not write off VMS as a desktop
out of hand.
The investment to make VMS competitive in desktop market would
be gigantic and the chance of success very small.
Post by Bill Gunshannon
There might be an advantage to having the same
OS from datacenter to desktop, Hmmmm.... Haven't we heard that
before.
That was a nice idea 25 years ago.

Today servers and desktop is splitting up.

Windows desktop and server editions diverge from each other.

Unix is focusing on servers. Workstations are dead.

Linux has almost given up on desktop. And distros are typical
focusing on either server or desktop.

MacOS X dropped server totally to focus on desktop.

Arne
Arne Vajhøj
2017-03-03 01:43:03 UTC
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Post by David Froble
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
RDB and Oracle DB comes to my mind.
I hope there's more than that. While RDB is VMS only, Oracle
is not. And the functionality itself does not require VMS.
That being the case it would not bode well for VMS if this is
where they see its future.
There most be more. But the list of commercial software
for VMS must be a lot shorter today than 25 years ago.
Commercial software firms saw the writing on the wall years ago. They
went elsewhere.
I'm guessing that the people who didn't leave VMS were those with
in-house developed applications. Such would be more closely tailored to
the company's requirements, and thus harder to find replacements elsewhere.
A lot of that. But the question was about general purpose applications.
Post by David Froble
As for Rdb and Oracle, those are databases, not applications. Databases
store data. Applications do a needed task.
In some ways a database server is also an application.

Arne
John Reagan
2017-03-01 13:37:10 UTC
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Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
Pathworks had the Ericom VT emulator, it was the best one I've seen.
Perhaps VSI could approach them and see if they can supply a VT-only emulator.
Or just download PyTTY for free.
I used to use (actually purchased) the Ericom product back when you still had to contact a human salesperson who would send you a written quote for a yearly fee, etc. A few years after that, somebody mentioned PuTTY (I had never heard of it). After switching to PuTTY, quit uses Ericom's product and never looked back.
Richard Maher
2017-03-01 17:36:31 UTC
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Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
So VMS needs a GUI.
NO IT DOESN'T!
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
And now VT terminals are really gone, shouldn't VMS be packed with a
Windows, Linux and MAC VT emulator that can do everything a real VT
terminal can do?
After all, VMS applications that were designed using the more advanced
possibilities of VT terminals should work properly on terminal emulators also.
Don't they? Maybe remove those "advanced possibilities" or move it all
over to the web.
Post by Dirk Munk
Pathworks had the Ericom VT emulator, it was the best one I've seen.
Perhaps VSI could approach them and see if they can supply a VT-only emulator.
Or just download PyTTY for free.
Case closed. How hard was that?
Simon Clubley
2017-03-01 18:50:55 UTC
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Post by Richard Maher
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
So VMS needs a GUI.
NO IT DOESN'T!
So Richard, is this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld/objects/An83QjDmRISUKsIRVwTMDA

your preferred UI mechanism ? :-)
Post by Richard Maher
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
Pathworks had the Ericom VT emulator, it was the best one I've seen.
Perhaps VSI could approach them and see if they can supply a VT-only emulator.
Or just download PyTTY for free.
Case closed. How hard was that?
PuTTY has one issue I know about with PF1 to PF4 when in numeric
keypad mode with one of the keyboard configuration options, but it
doesn't affect the majority of the VMS applications I use.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
Dirk Munk
2017-03-01 19:10:55 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Richard Maher
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
So VMS needs a GUI.
NO IT DOESN'T!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld/objects/An83QjDmRISUKsIRVwTMDA
your preferred UI mechanism ? :-)
I think Richard prefers the LA36.
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Richard Maher
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
Pathworks had the Ericom VT emulator, it was the best one I've seen.
Perhaps VSI could approach them and see if they can supply a VT-only emulator.
Or just download PyTTY for free.
Case closed. How hard was that?
PuTTY has one issue I know about with PF1 to PF4 when in numeric
keypad mode with one of the keyboard configuration options, but it
doesn't affect the majority of the VMS applications I use.
Simon.
Richard Maher
2017-03-01 22:50:18 UTC
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Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Richard Maher
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
So VMS needs a GUI.
NO IT DOESN'T!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld/objects/An83QjDmRISUKsIRVwTMDA
your preferred UI mechanism ? :-)
I think Richard prefers the LA36.
Is that the one that can type backwards (returning) as well as forwards?
Luxury! I used to have one in the house 'cos I loved the noise. I still
have a hockey-puck mouse and a TK50 and a functioning RRD-40!

But if I want to edit anything I use a PC client! An IDE or Notepad++

What idiot would use VMS for these jobs that it will never be suited
for. How many of you sickos are still pining for VAX Document or DECBurger?
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Richard Maher
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
Pathworks had the Ericom VT emulator, it was the best one I've seen.
Perhaps VSI could approach them and see if they can supply a VT-only emulator.
Or just download PyTTY for free.
Case closed. How hard was that?
PuTTY has one issue I know about with PF1 to PF4 when in numeric
keypad mode with one of the keyboard configuration options, but it
doesn't affect the majority of the VMS applications I use.
So don't use it for EDT just like I don't use VI.
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Simon Clubley
Simon.
Simon Clubley
2017-03-02 00:51:53 UTC
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Post by Richard Maher
Post by Simon Clubley
PuTTY has one issue I know about with PF1 to PF4 when in numeric
keypad mode with one of the keyboard configuration options, but it
doesn't affect the majority of the VMS applications I use.
So don't use it for EDT just like I don't use VI.
I don't use it for EDT but only for real editors. :-)

EVE on VMS and emacs in EDT keypad mode on Linux. Works fine for
me in both cases.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
Lee Gleason
2017-03-02 04:13:20 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Richard Maher
Post by Dirk Munk
So VMS needs a GUI.
NO IT DOESN'T!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld/objects/An83QjDmRISUKsIRVwTMDA
your preferred UI mechanism ? :-)
?I think Richard prefers the LA36.
Is that the one that can type backwards (returning) as well as forwards?
No, the LA36 was not boustrophedonic.

--
Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR
Control-G Consultants
***@gmail.com
m***@googlemail.com
2017-03-02 04:32:38 UTC
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Post by Lee Gleason
No, the LA36 was not boustrophedonic.
Like +1
Paul Sture
2017-03-02 08:10:55 UTC
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Post by m***@googlemail.com
Post by Lee Gleason
No, the LA36 was not boustrophedonic.
Like +1
"Origin and Etymology of boustrophedon. Greek boustrophēdon, adverb,
literally, turning like oxen in ploughing"

A nice find.

(And for those interested in such stuff, a possible social media
experiment, maybe a PhD paper or two, on seeing how quickly one could
propagate an existing but little known word around the interwebs to the
point spotty teenagers casually drop it into posts, in the same manner
that skeuomorphism appeared from nowhere a few years ago.)
--
A supercomputer is a device for turning compute-bound problems into
I/O-bound problems. ---Ken Batcher
j***@yahoo.co.uk
2017-03-02 08:54:31 UTC
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Post by Paul Sture
Post by m***@googlemail.com
Post by Lee Gleason
No, the LA36 was not boustrophedonic.
Like +1
"Origin and Etymology of boustrophedon. Greek boustrophēdon, adverb,
literally, turning like oxen in ploughing"
A nice find.
(And for those interested in such stuff, a possible social media
experiment, maybe a PhD paper or two, on seeing how quickly one could
propagate an existing but little known word around the interwebs to the
point spotty teenagers casually drop it into posts, in the same manner
that skeuomorphism appeared from nowhere a few years ago.)
--
A supercomputer is a device for turning compute-bound problems into
I/O-bound problems. ---Ken Batcher
Isn't there prior art in terms of the recording of the
propagation and adoption of new words? Deeper analysis
is always useful...

E.g. the Urban Dictionary (?) at one time had a definition
of "bangalored" (rhymes with offshored, meaning's similar too)
which, as it happens, came from comp.os.vms a decade and a
half ago. The original is still referenced at
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Bangalore
Not that it's in quite as widespread use as skeuwhatever.
Paul Sture
2017-03-03 18:20:57 UTC
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Post by j***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Paul Sture
Post by m***@googlemail.com
Post by Lee Gleason
No, the LA36 was not boustrophedonic.
Like +1
"Origin and Etymology of boustrophedon. Greek boustrophēdon, adverb,
literally, turning like oxen in ploughing"
A nice find.
(And for those interested in such stuff, a possible social media
experiment, maybe a PhD paper or two, on seeing how quickly one could
propagate an existing but little known word around the interwebs to the
point spotty teenagers casually drop it into posts, in the same manner
that skeuomorphism appeared from nowhere a few years ago.)
Isn't there prior art in terms of the recording of the
propagation and adoption of new words? Deeper analysis
is always useful...
I immediately think of the word "quiz", reputed to have been spread by
someone painting it around town, but the following thread has that as
unconfirmed and offers other possible sources.

<https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/quiz#Etymology>

(the Latin oral exam question looks credible to me, word play was
permanently on topic with the classical and modern language scholars
I knew back in the day)
Post by j***@yahoo.co.uk
E.g. the Urban Dictionary (?) at one time had a definition
of "bangalored" (rhymes with offshored, meaning's similar too)
which, as it happens, came from comp.os.vms a decade and a
half ago. The original is still referenced at
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Bangalore
Nice one, which had me looking for the origin of "chocolate teapot
/ fireguard". That one leads to Guardian reports of football at
Barnsley, and the time frame (1978/79) accords with my memory of coming
across the phrase.

<http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/104958/origin-of-as-useful-as-a-chocolate-teapot-fireguard/104961#104961>
Post by j***@yahoo.co.uk
Not that it's in quite as widespread use as skeuwhatever.
Which I note has disappeared from the Apple spell checker. I'm reasonably
sure it was there when the phrase was in vogue.

I much prefer "skew-whiff"; the imitation of a leather bound diary on
your computer has proved to be forgettable.

<https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/skew-whiff#Etymology>
--
A supercomputer is a device for turning compute-bound problems into
I/O-bound problems. ---Ken Batcher
j***@yahoo.co.uk
2017-03-02 08:42:30 UTC
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Post by Lee Gleason
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Richard Maher
Post by Dirk Munk
So VMS needs a GUI.
NO IT DOESN'T!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld/objects/An83QjDmRISUKsIRVwTMDA
your preferred UI mechanism ? :-)
?I think Richard prefers the LA36.
Is that the one that can type backwards (returning) as well as forwards?
No, the LA36 was not boustrophedonic.
--
Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR
Control-G Consultants
The LA36's logical successor, the LA120, printed both ways,
if you fed it data quickly enough. Good to see that people
here still care about these tings.
Hunter Goatley
2017-03-01 19:42:49 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Richard Maher
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Or just download PyTTY for free.
Case closed. How hard was that?
PuTTY has one issue I know about with PF1 to PF4 when in numeric
keypad mode with one of the keyboard configuration options, but it
doesn't affect the majority of the VMS applications I use.
There's also my preferred free emulator: TeraTerm (and TTSSH):

https://ttssh2.osdn.jp/index.html.en
--
Hunter
------
Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/
***@goatley.com http://hunter.goatley.com/
David Froble
2017-03-01 22:22:38 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Richard Maher
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
So VMS needs a GUI.
NO IT DOESN'T!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld/objects/An83QjDmRISUKsIRVwTMDA
your preferred UI mechanism ? :-)
Post by Richard Maher
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
Pathworks had the Ericom VT emulator, it was the best one I've seen.
Perhaps VSI could approach them and see if they can supply a VT-only emulator.
Or just download PyTTY for free.
Case closed. How hard was that?
PuTTY has one issue I know about with PF1 to PF4 when in numeric
keypad mode with one of the keyboard configuration options, but it
doesn't affect the majority of the VMS applications I use.
Simon.
PuTTy has several issues that I just could not stand. Scrolling and cut-n-paste
were some of them, if I remember correctly. It is definitely not VT terminal
compatible.
Simon Clubley
2017-03-02 00:47:34 UTC
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Post by David Froble
PuTTy has several issues that I just could not stand. Scrolling and cut-n-paste
were some of them, if I remember correctly. It is definitely not VT terminal
compatible.
I _love_ the fact that you can configure the copy-and-paste option
on PuTTY under Windows to behave in the same way as copy-and-paste
works on Linux.

It saves so much faffing around with Windows style copy-and-paste.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
Bob Koehler
2017-03-02 14:14:27 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld/objects/An83QjDmRISUKsIRVwTMDA
your preferred UI mechanism ? :-)
Paper tape. And don't give us any of that fan-fold crap.
Arne Vajhøj
2017-03-02 01:27:28 UTC
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Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
And now VT terminals are really gone, shouldn't VMS be packed with a
Windows, Linux and MAC VT emulator that can do everything a real VT
terminal can do?
After all, VMS applications that were designed using the more advanced
possibilities of VT terminals should work properly on terminal emulators also.
Don't they? Maybe remove those "advanced possibilities" or move it all
over to the web.
Web is in many ways attractive.

But there is also one big gotcha. The system may need to be reasonable
working to have a web server running. And when system administration is
needed then sometimes it is because the system is not working at all.

For it to be viable I think the web server need to:
* come pre-installed with VMS
* have very few dependencies (we can't avoid depending on TCP/IP)
* be very robust configured

Arne
Jan-Erik Soderholm
2017-03-02 08:18:03 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Dirk Munk
And now VT terminals are really gone, shouldn't VMS be packed with a
Windows, Linux and MAC VT emulator that can do everything a real VT
terminal can do?
After all, VMS applications that were designed using the more advanced
possibilities of VT terminals should work properly on terminal emulators also.
Don't they? Maybe remove those "advanced possibilities" or move it all
over to the web.
Web is in many ways attractive.
But there is also one big gotcha. The system may need to be reasonable
working to have a web server running. And when system administration is
needed then sometimes it is because the system is not working at all.
* come pre-installed with VMS
* have very few dependencies (we can't avoid depending on TCP/IP)
* be very robust configured
Arne
Ah, right. But then we are talkning traditional system management,
not how applictions runs. And of course you want a low level console
connection if the system is not "reasonable working", as you call it.
The old systems (VAX, Alpha and also the IA64 boxes I have seen) have
always got an option for a serial and remote console.
Bill Gunshannon
2017-03-01 13:26:09 UTC
Reply
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Post by Dirk Munk
So VMS needs a GUI.
And we also know that the 'old' DecWindows interface is a bit obsolete.
Then what kind of GUI should VMS have?
Perhaps Java front ends that you can start from a simple terminal
interface, or from a browser with Web Start?
At least you don't need a non-free X-Windows server on your PC/Mac, just
a free Java package.
There is more than one free Xwindows implementation for PC's and I
thought X was native on the Mac.
Post by Dirk Munk
And now VT terminals are really gone, shouldn't VMS be packed with a
Windows, Linux and MAC VT emulator that can do everything a real VT
terminal can do?
Enough of them out there that we probably don't need yet another.
Post by Dirk Munk
After all, VMS applications that were designed using the more advanced
possibilities of VT terminals should work properly on terminal emulators
also.
Pathworks had the Ericom VT emulator, it was the best one I've seen.
Perhaps VSI could approach them and see if they can supply a VT-only
emulator.
Do they even still exist?

bill
Dirk Munk
2017-03-01 13:44:39 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Dirk Munk
So VMS needs a GUI.
And we also know that the 'old' DecWindows interface is a bit obsolete.
Then what kind of GUI should VMS have?
Perhaps Java front ends that you can start from a simple terminal
interface, or from a browser with Web Start?
At least you don't need a non-free X-Windows server on your PC/Mac, just
a free Java package.
There is more than one free Xwindows implementation for PC's and I
thought X was native on the Mac.
Maybe, but setting them up is usually a pain. Not only that, but the
X-Windows setup on VMS is old fashioned, and if all kind of OS utilities
should get a GUI, then 95% of the work still has to be done.
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Dirk Munk
And now VT terminals are really gone, shouldn't VMS be packed with a
Windows, Linux and MAC VT emulator that can do everything a real VT
terminal can do?
Enough of them out there that we probably don't need yet another.
I didn't ask for a new one
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Dirk Munk
After all, VMS applications that were designed using the more advanced
possibilities of VT terminals should work properly on terminal emulators
also.
Pathworks had the Ericom VT emulator, it was the best one I've seen.
Perhaps VSI could approach them and see if they can supply a VT-only
emulator.
Do they even still exist?
Oh yes, very much so.

http://www.ericom.com/terminal_emulator.asp
Post by Bill Gunshannon
bill
Bill Gunshannon
2017-03-01 14:21:53 UTC
Reply
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Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Dirk Munk
So VMS needs a GUI.
And we also know that the 'old' DecWindows interface is a bit obsolete.
Then what kind of GUI should VMS have?
Perhaps Java front ends that you can start from a simple terminal
interface, or from a browser with Web Start?
At least you don't need a non-free X-Windows server on your PC/Mac, just
a free Java package.
There is more than one free Xwindows implementation for PC's and I
thought X was native on the Mac.
Maybe, but setting them up is usually a pain.
I set them up all the time. Never had a problem with either of them.
XMing is the better choice for the average user as it's a real X Client.
If one knows enough to use Xwindows one knows enough to set it up.
Post by Dirk Munk
Not only that, but the
X-Windows setup on VMS is old fashioned, and if all kind of OS utilities
should get a GUI, then 95% of the work still has to be done.
Well, that's a VMS problem. :-) I also never had a problem setting up
DECWindows. Don't know why people with much more experience with
admnining VMS than I have find some of these tasks so difficult.
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Dirk Munk
And now VT terminals are really gone, shouldn't VMS be packed with a
Windows, Linux and MAC VT emulator that can do everything a real VT
terminal can do?
Enough of them out there that we probably don't need yet another.
I didn't ask for a new one
Sorry, you asked for VSI to provide one. I assumed you wanted them to
make one a product with their support.
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Dirk Munk
After all, VMS applications that were designed using the more advanced
possibilities of VT terminals should work properly on terminal emulators
also.
Pathworks had the Ericom VT emulator, it was the best one I've seen.
Perhaps VSI could approach them and see if they can supply a VT-only
emulator.
Do they even still exist?
Oh yes, very much so.
http://www.ericom.com/terminal_emulator.asp
I never understand how companies survive selling products that have
outlived their usefulness.

bill
Dirk Munk
2017-03-01 15:07:45 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Dirk Munk
So VMS needs a GUI.
And we also know that the 'old' DecWindows interface is a bit obsolete.
Then what kind of GUI should VMS have?
Perhaps Java front ends that you can start from a simple terminal
interface, or from a browser with Web Start?
At least you don't need a non-free X-Windows server on your PC/Mac, just
a free Java package.
There is more than one free Xwindows implementation for PC's and I
thought X was native on the Mac.
Maybe, but setting them up is usually a pain.
I set them up all the time. Never had a problem with either of them.
XMing is the better choice for the average user as it's a real X Client.
If one knows enough to use Xwindows one knows enough to set it up.
Post by Dirk Munk
Not only that, but the
X-Windows setup on VMS is old fashioned, and if all kind of OS utilities
should get a GUI, then 95% of the work still has to be done.
Well, that's a VMS problem. :-) I also never had a problem setting up
DECWindows. Don't know why people with much more experience with
admnining VMS than I have find some of these tasks so difficult.
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Dirk Munk
And now VT terminals are really gone, shouldn't VMS be packed with a
Windows, Linux and MAC VT emulator that can do everything a real VT
terminal can do?
Enough of them out there that we probably don't need yet another.
I didn't ask for a new one
Sorry, you asked for VSI to provide one. I assumed you wanted them to
make one a product with their support.
DEC didn't make the Pathworks emulator either, they just licensed it. I
suppose that any problems were sent to Ericom to be solved.
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Dirk Munk
After all, VMS applications that were designed using the more advanced
possibilities of VT terminals should work properly on terminal emulators
also.
Pathworks had the Ericom VT emulator, it was the best one I've seen.
Perhaps VSI could approach them and see if they can supply a VT-only
emulator.
Do they even still exist?
Oh yes, very much so.
http://www.ericom.com/terminal_emulator.asp
I never understand how companies survive selling products that have
outlived their usefulness.
I pointed to their terminal emulator page, but they have many other
products as well.

There are many legacy applications out there, VMS, Unix, IBM, and they
have terminal interfaces. Ericom terminal emulators come with a yearly
fee, just as with cloud applications.
Bill Gunshannon
2017-03-01 16:32:54 UTC
Reply
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Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Dirk Munk
So VMS needs a GUI.
And we also know that the 'old' DecWindows interface is a bit obsolete.
Then what kind of GUI should VMS have?
Perhaps Java front ends that you can start from a simple terminal
interface, or from a browser with Web Start?
At least you don't need a non-free X-Windows server on your PC/Mac, just
a free Java package.
There is more than one free Xwindows implementation for PC's and I
thought X was native on the Mac.
Maybe, but setting them up is usually a pain.
I set them up all the time. Never had a problem with either of them.
XMing is the better choice for the average user as it's a real X Client.
If one knows enough to use Xwindows one knows enough to set it up.
Post by Dirk Munk
Not only that, but the
X-Windows setup on VMS is old fashioned, and if all kind of OS utilities
should get a GUI, then 95% of the work still has to be done.
Well, that's a VMS problem. :-) I also never had a problem setting up
DECWindows. Don't know why people with much more experience with
admnining VMS than I have find some of these tasks so difficult.
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Dirk Munk
And now VT terminals are really gone, shouldn't VMS be packed with a
Windows, Linux and MAC VT emulator that can do everything a real VT
terminal can do?
Enough of them out there that we probably don't need yet another.
I didn't ask for a new one
Sorry, you asked for VSI to provide one. I assumed you wanted them to
make one a product with their support.
DEC didn't make the Pathworks emulator either, they just licensed it. I
suppose that any problems were sent to Ericom to be solved.
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Dirk Munk
After all, VMS applications that were designed using the more advanced
possibilities of VT terminals should work properly on terminal emulators
also.
Pathworks had the Ericom VT emulator, it was the best one I've seen.
Perhaps VSI could approach them and see if they can supply a VT-only
emulator.
Do they even still exist?
Oh yes, very much so.
http://www.ericom.com/terminal_emulator.asp
I never understand how companies survive selling products that have
outlived their usefulness.
I pointed to their terminal emulator page, but they have many other
products as well.
There are many legacy applications out there, VMS, Unix, IBM, and they
have terminal interfaces. Ericom terminal emulators come with a yearly
fee, just as with cloud applications.
And Putty comes for free. How do you compete with free?


bill
Moai
2017-03-01 15:09:55 UTC
Reply
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Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Dirk Munk
So VMS needs a GUI.
And we also know that the 'old' DecWindows interface is a bit obsolete.
Then what kind of GUI should VMS have?
Perhaps Java front ends that you can start from a simple terminal
interface, or from a browser with Web Start?
At least you don't need a non-free X-Windows server on your PC/Mac, just
a free Java package.
There is more than one free Xwindows implementation for PC's and I
thought X was native on the Mac.
Maybe, but setting them up is usually a pain. Not only that, but the
X-Windows setup on VMS is old fashioned, and if all kind of OS utilities
should get a GUI, then 95% of the work still has to be done.
Maybe, but setting them up is usually a pain.
When was setting up X on a PC or Mac difficult? As long as you're not
running something like Haiku or Windows on your PC, you're set. I agree
it could be hard otherwise.
Bill Gunshannon
2017-03-01 16:24:24 UTC
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Post by Moai
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Dirk Munk
So VMS needs a GUI.
And we also know that the 'old' DecWindows interface is a bit obsolete.
Then what kind of GUI should VMS have?
Perhaps Java front ends that you can start from a simple terminal
interface, or from a browser with Web Start?
At least you don't need a non-free X-Windows server on your PC/Mac, just
a free Java package.
There is more than one free Xwindows implementation for PC's and I
thought X was native on the Mac.
Maybe, but setting them up is usually a pain. Not only that, but the
X-Windows setup on VMS is old fashioned, and if all kind of OS utilities
should get a GUI, then 95% of the work still has to be done.
Maybe, but setting them up is usually a pain.
When was setting up X on a PC or Mac difficult? As long as you're not
running something like Haiku or Windows on your PC, you're set. I agree
it could be hard otherwise.
It's not difficult under Windows either. Been doing it since
the days of DesqView.

bill
Simon Clubley
2017-03-02 00:21:17 UTC
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Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Bill Gunshannon
There is more than one free Xwindows implementation for PC's and I
thought X was native on the Mac.
Maybe, but setting them up is usually a pain. Not only that, but the
X-Windows setup on VMS is old fashioned, and if all kind of OS utilities
should get a GUI, then 95% of the work still has to be done.
But Dirk, I thought you _liked_ following setup procedures which
require you to do a lot of manual reading. :-)

Simon.

PS: The above has an implicit $ set response/mode=good_natured :-)
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
Dirk Munk
2017-03-02 00:42:32 UTC
Reply
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Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Bill Gunshannon
There is more than one free Xwindows implementation for PC's and I
thought X was native on the Mac.
Maybe, but setting them up is usually a pain. Not only that, but the
X-Windows setup on VMS is old fashioned, and if all kind of OS utilities
should get a GUI, then 95% of the work still has to be done.
But Dirk, I thought you _liked_ following setup procedures which
require you to do a lot of manual reading. :-)
Simon.
PS: The above has an implicit $ set response/mode=good_natured :-)
A well written manual can give you a good insight in how to set up
something, the parameters to use, and why.

A GUI can give you a very nice overview of all those parameters in one
glance, and a very easy way to modify them.

Reading a manual, making educated choices, it has nothing to do with
implementing the parameters with a GUI or a CLI interface.

GUIs do not replace manuals.
Craig A. Berry
2017-03-02 00:52:50 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
There is more than one free Xwindows implementation for PC's and I
thought X was native on the Mac.
It's never been native in the sense of forming the basis of the
vendor-supplied user interface. It used to be bundled, but isn't
anymore, which makes very little difference since it's still readily
available and works just fine:

<https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201341>
John E. Malmberg
2017-03-01 13:32:43 UTC
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Post by Dirk Munk
So VMS needs a GUI.
And we also know that the 'old' DecWindows interface is a bit obsolete.
Then what kind of GUI should VMS have?
A web server based GUI which a standard browser can use.

Client side certifications used for authentication.

Set up a virtual frame buffer on the VMS server to map existing X-11
applications to the web server.

You need a protocol for the GUI that allows clients to be disconnected
and reconnect and not lose context.

Plenty of web browsers and documented HTTP standards, so why invent
something new?

I would not expect VSI to be putting a priority on this unless one of
their paying customers waves a lot of money at them for it though.

But on the other hand, there is nothing in implementing this that
requires VSI make changes to VMS, so this work could be done by a third
party if they so desired.
Post by Dirk Munk
Perhaps Java front ends that you can start from a simple terminal
interface, or from a browser with Web Start?
At least you don't need a non-free X-Windows server on your PC/Mac, just
a free Java package.
Cygwin/X works on a PC once you learn how to configure it. For some
reasons the maintainers decided in the interest of security to default
it to disable SSH tunneling into to it and make it a bit inconvenient to
enable it.

Xming also works, but on Windows 8.1, I can not get it to remember any
of its settings, so have to manually configure the xhost and font server
every time I restart it.

Don't know about current Mac offerings. Last time I used a Mac, it came
with an X-11 server on the CD with xcode.
Post by Dirk Munk
And now VT terminals are really gone, shouldn't VMS be packed with a
Windows, Linux and MAC VT emulator that can do everything a real VT
terminal can do?
It has DecTerms now. Anything else needs to be a client application.
(IIRC: DecTerms have small bug with the printer passthrough escape
sequence, in that in addition to operating on it, they also pass it
through to the emulated printer. Most devices ignore it, so it is not
noticed)
Post by Dirk Munk
After all, VMS applications that were designed using the more advanced
possibilities of VT terminals should work properly on terminal emulators
also.
Pathworks had the Ericom VT emulator, it was the best one I've seen.
Perhaps VSI could approach them and see if they can supply a VT-only
emulator.
Probably cheaper to enhance a port of Putty. While Putty has some
issues, it is basically good enough and free.

A "gamers" keyboard, while maybe not having the function keys in the
right place for VMS users, allows programming the extra keys to send any
character sequence that you want, to allow sending any function key on
an LK keyboard.

I do not know if "gamers" keyboards work with Mac OS-X. Or if there are
any that are close to a LK-461 layout.

Regards,
-John
***@qsl.net_work
Stephen Hoffman
2017-03-01 17:16:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dirk Munk
So VMS needs a GUI.
What app environments and app problem(s) are you seeking to solve here?
Post by Dirk Munk
Then what kind of GUI should VMS have?
For most server configurations I'm working with and for most I'm
expecting to see, that would involve adding OpenVMS APIs that allow
easy interfaces for remote client access, those usually involving a web
browser or browser-based app, or various purpose-built client apps
running on the clients. Also server-to-server access. That means
HTTPS and TLS support, REST tools, certificate and authentication and
related support, and suchlike.

Outside of existing and legacy OpenVMS apps and maybe some related
maintenance and new development work, I don't see a particular call for
X clients on OpenVMS and X servers on the remote clients, nor RDP
support on OpenVMS. This as X is pretty clunky in general — Xming and
other clients do work — and OpenVMS doesn't have much to even RDP into.
I do not relish doing a new X app on OpenVMS, as the current
programming support and tools — particularly if you lack VUIT or bX, or
if you're using UIL and not bespoke code for the API — is an unpleasant
and increasingly UI-rigid slog compared with the client-side
development tools and APLs available on other client-focused platforms.
See Xcode or Visual Studio or some of the JetBrains tools for
examples of what folks already or will increasingly expect.

Most of what I deal now with is either HTML / HTTPS, or REST or
home-grown network protocols, or those that are still using serial
connections and terminal emulators.

But the question is... What sort of UI will current and future OpenVMS
apps likely have? I suspect that UI will be the UI of Android or iOS
or Windows or Linux or macOS — of the client device — and not any
particularly new native OpenVMS GUI or other interactive interface.
That then leads to how to make that remote access easier both for the
client app programmers, and for the server app programmers. Whether
that means new imperative APIs or better (long overdue) web integration
into the base distro. or adopting approaches such as Node.js or Twisted
support integration for instance, or integrating Apache Tomcat or
something else?

If the choice does become a native OpenVMS GUI — and I'm exceedingly
skeptical about that — then the GUI question becomes... What are the
knock-off effects? Folks working on GUIs expect a GUI editor and an
IDE, and increasingly prefer a way to disconnect the UI code from the
application code; to make it easier to adjust the UI without also
having to slog through piles of imperative-code-as-UI to tweak or
update the UI. What's expected is way past VUIT, and that's assuming
there's much reason to build new local GUI apps directly on OpenVMS.
Folks will also expect modern features such as a touch interface — and
that's not easy to get right — and other sorts of display and graphics
output, far better USB-C support, and human I/O capabilities. That's
a whole pile of work beyond what's classically considered the GUI, and,
well, I'm just not seeing a future where droves of folks log directly
into a GUI hosted on an OpenVMS box.

If you think that OpenVMS can supplement and can server available and
upcoming clients, you're quite correct.

If you think that OpenVMS can supplant in-development client and
desktop systems much less the already-existing ones, I'd strongly
disagree.

Remember too the official VSI target; OpenVMS is for server apps. Not
for desktops. Certainly not for mobile.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
Dirk Munk
2017-03-03 12:13:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Dirk Munk
So VMS needs a GUI.
What app environments and app problem(s) are you seeking to solve here?
The traditional way of interfacing with a VMS application (or OS
utility) is the VT terminal. Even when X-Windows was used due to the
absence of VT terminals, most of the time it was used for the DecTerm
application.

A more contemporary interface to replace the VT interface is the first
thing I'm thinking of.

The VMS X-Windows interface was designed for VMS workstations. It could
be used for X-Windows terminals also, but for demanding graphical
applications, you need a workstation.

We can agree that at this moment a VMS workstation is not feasible.
Maybe in the future if there would be a market for it, but that moment
is so far away that speculating about it is quite useless.
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Dirk Munk
Then what kind of GUI should VMS have?
For most server configurations I'm working with and for most I'm
expecting to see, that would involve adding OpenVMS APIs that allow easy
interfaces for remote client access,
I totally agree, that is the most important issue. It should be easy to
incorporate a GUI in a VMS application written in one (or more) VMS
languages. A simple example, a Cobol program with a GUI.
Post by Stephen Hoffman
those usually involving a web
browser or browser-based app, or various purpose-built client apps
running on the clients.
That is possible, but I don't think it can be combined with the easy to
use VMS APIs you mentioned.
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Also server-to-server access. That means
HTTPS and TLS support, REST tools, certificate and authentication and
related support, and suchlike.
Outside of existing and legacy OpenVMS apps and maybe some related
maintenance and new development work, I don't see a particular call for
X clients on OpenVMS and X servers on the remote clients, nor RDP
support on OpenVMS. This as X is pretty clunky in general — Xming and
other clients do work — and OpenVMS doesn't have much to even RDP into.
I do not relish doing a new X app on OpenVMS, as the current
programming support and tools — particularly if you lack VUIT or bX,
or
if you're using UIL and not bespoke code for the API — is an
unpleasant
and increasingly UI-rigid slog compared with the client-side
development
tools and APLs available on other client-focused platforms. See Xcode
or Visual Studio or some of the JetBrains tools for examples of what
folks already or will increasingly expect.
Most of what I deal now with is either HTML / HTTPS, or REST or
home-grown network protocols, or those that are still using serial
connections and terminal emulators.
But the question is... What sort of UI will current and future OpenVMS
apps likely have? I suspect that UI will be the UI of Android or iOS
or Windows or Linux or macOS — of the client device — and not any
particularly new native OpenVMS GUI or other interactive interface.
That then leads to how to make that remote access easier both for the
client app programmers, and for the server app programmers. Whether
that means new imperative APIs or better (long overdue) web
integration
into the base distro. or adopting approaches such as Node.js or Twisted
support integration for instance, or integrating Apache Tomcat or
something else?
If the choice does become a native OpenVMS GUI — and I'm exceedingly
skeptical about that — then the GUI question becomes... What are the
knock-off effects? Folks working on GUIs expect a GUI editor and an
IDE, and increasingly prefer a way to disconnect the UI code from the
application code; to make it easier to adjust the UI without also
having
to slog through piles of imperative-code-as-UI to tweak or update the
UI.
I agree
Post by Stephen Hoffman
What's expected is way past VUIT, and that's assuming there's
much reason to build new local GUI apps directly on OpenVMS. Folks
will also expect modern features such as a touch interface — and
that's
not easy to get right — and other sorts of display and graphics
output,
far better USB-C support, and human I/O capabilities. That's a whole
pile of work beyond what's classically considered the GUI, and, well,
I'm just not seeing a future where droves of folks log directly into a
GUI hosted on an OpenVMS box.
If you think that OpenVMS can supplement and can server available and
upcoming clients, you're quite correct.
If you think that OpenVMS can supplant in-development client and
desktop
systems much less the already-existing ones, I'd strongly disagree.
Remember too the official VSI target; OpenVMS is for server apps.
Not
for desktops. Certainly not for mobile.
VMS on a desktop or notebook is possible, but only as a VM client and
another OS (Windows, Linux, Mac) as another client, and the latter one
will be used as 'terminal'.

The traditional VMS application has a VT user interface, as I mentioned
before. How can we replace that?

I'm thinking of Java, VSI is putting much effort into Java, and I
suppose they have a good reason for it.

Let's have a look at good old FMS, how did it work. If I remember
correctly, there was a design program, and the resulting form and data
fields could be called from within a VMS application. You could link
everything, and your application was ready. It didn't take much
knowledge to do this, any programmer could do this.

Now what I have been thinking of for two decades or so is a Java based
replacement.

Suppose you have a form design program written in Java, so you can use
it on Windows, Linux and MacOS. You design a form, and it will produce a
callable Java form application. This form can be called from a VMS
application, somewhat similar to the way it was done with FMS. Perhaps
there need to be two pieces of Java, one on the client side, and one on
the VMS side.

You could start such an application from within a browser (web start),
or perhaps from a DCL prompt in a terminal emulator.

This is very rough idea, but in my view it is much better and simpler
than going for a HTML based interface, and safer too. An 'infected'
browser can not interfere with the communication.
Bill Gunshannon
2017-03-03 16:02:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Dirk Munk
So VMS needs a GUI.
What app environments and app problem(s) are you seeking to solve here?
The traditional way of interfacing with a VMS application (or OS
utility) is the VT terminal.
"Traditional" only in the fact that the use of computers like the
VAX predate the availability of Windowing terminals.
Post by Dirk Munk
Even when X-Windows was used due to the
absence of VT terminals, most of the time it was used for the DecTerm
application.
Not in my experience. I certainly used it for a lot more than that.
As did my students and professors. And worked with people doing CAD
on them. And video-conferencing. And many other early graphical
applications used for various branches of science. And, there never
was an absence of VT Terminals. We used them for registration with
character cell applications well into the 90's. They were finally
replaced by the web, not X-terminals. The only common use of DecTerm
I can think of was developers with DECSWindows on their desktop
developing those character cell applications. Graphic applications
were all new and in very few cases written to replace character
cell applications. They continued in use until things like the
web replaced them. There was plenty to do on graphical terminals
without worrying about the old stuff.
Post by Dirk Munk
A more contemporary interface to replace the VT interface is the first
thing I'm thinking of.
I think others experience was quite different.
Post by Dirk Munk
The VMS X-Windows interface was designed for VMS workstations. It could
be used for X-Windows terminals also, but for demanding graphical
applications, you need a workstation.
Two things. There was nothing dependent on VMS. DECWindows was no
different the X stuff running on Suns and SGI's. And remember,
DECWindows ran just fine on Ultrix on VAX hardware as well.
And second... There was nothing VMS specific about DECWindows. It
worked just fine on non-DEC X-Terminals. We used HP (before they
became synonymous with DEC), Wyse, NCD and even a couple of free ones
that ran on PC hardware sans OS. And, what is a workstation other
than a computer with a graphical interface?
Post by Dirk Munk
We can agree that at this moment a VMS workstation is not feasible.
Maybe in the future if there would be a market for it, but that moment
is so far away that speculating about it is quite useless.
You insist on the use of the term "Workstation". I think that is the
problem. An archaic term with little if any application today. I know
people don't want to even think about VMS on the desktop, but having
used it a lot in the past (and pushed its use where I worked) I see it
as having real value. Granted the last thing put out by VMS was
ancient and pretty poor by today's standards but that doesn't mean it
has to be. Maybe a good Open Source on VMS project might be to look'
into a port of the currently used X for VMS. I remember in the days of
running Net and Open BSD on the VAX the primary reason for not doing
this had nothing to do with the software but everything to do with the
lack of publicly available (and usable) information about the hardware
on things like the VAXStations. That is no longer a problem and would
be less of a problem when VMS is running on the PC architecture.
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Dirk Munk
Then what kind of GUI should VMS have?
For most server configurations I'm working with and for most I'm
expecting to see, that would involve adding OpenVMS APIs that allow easy
interfaces for remote client access,
I totally agree, that is the most important issue. It should be easy to
incorporate a GUI in a VMS application written in one (or more) VMS
languages. A simple example, a Cobol program with a GUI.
Same thing for some of the admin tasks. Yes, at the early stages you
are going to have to do it from the command line. But later, everyday
maintenance could be made easier with A GUI. And tools like TCL/TK
can make that part easy. Same for applications in other languages, like
COBOL, if desired. And making logs easier to grasp, too. Graph that
data using tools like GNUPlot.
Post by Dirk Munk
Post by Stephen Hoffman
those usually involving a web
browser or browser-based app, or various purpose-built client apps
running on the clients.
That is possible, but I don't think it can be combined with the easy to
use VMS APIs you mentioned.
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Also server-to-server access. That means
HTTPS and TLS support, REST tools, certificate and authentication and
related support, and suchlike.
Outside of existing and legacy OpenVMS apps and maybe some related
maintenance and new development work, I don't see a particular call for
X clients on OpenVMS and X servers on the remote clients, nor RDP
support on OpenVMS. This as X is pretty clunky in general — Xming and
other clients do work — and OpenVMS doesn't have much to even RDP into.
I do not relish doing a new X app on OpenVMS, as the current
programming support and tools — particularly if you lack VUIT or bX,
or
if you're using UIL and not bespoke code for the API — is an unpleasant
and increasingly UI-rigid slog compared with the client-side
development
tools and APLs available on other client-focused platforms. See Xcode
or Visual Studio or some of the JetBrains tools for examples of what
folks already or will increasingly expect.
Most of what I deal now with is either HTML / HTTPS, or REST or
home-grown network protocols, or those that are still using serial
connections and terminal emulators.
But the question is... What sort of UI will current and future OpenVMS
apps likely have? I suspect that UI will be the UI of Android or iOS
or Windows or Linux or macOS — of the client device — and not any
particularly new native OpenVMS GUI or other interactive interface.
That then leads to how to make that remote access easier both for the
client app programmers, and for the server app programmers. Whether
that means new imperative APIs or better (long overdue) web
integration
into the base distro. or adopting approaches such as Node.js or Twisted
support integration for instance, or integrating Apache Tomcat or
something else?
If the choice does become a native OpenVMS GUI — and I'm exceedingly
skeptical about that — then the GUI question becomes... What are the
knock-off effects? Folks working on GUIs expect a GUI editor and an
IDE, and increasingly prefer a way to disconnect the UI code from the
application code; to make it easier to adjust the UI without also
having
to slog through piles of imperative-code-as-UI to tweak or update the
UI.
I agree
Post by Stephen Hoffman
What's expected is way past VUIT, and that's assuming there's
much reason to build new local GUI apps directly on OpenVMS. Folks
will also expect modern features such as a touch interface — and
that's
not easy to get right — and other sorts of display and graphics
output,
far better USB-C support, and human I/O capabilities. That's a whole
pile of work beyond what's classically considered the GUI, and, well,
I'm just not seeing a future where droves of folks log directly into a
GUI hosted on an OpenVMS box.
If you think that OpenVMS can supplement and can server available and
upcoming clients, you're quite correct.
If you think that OpenVMS can supplant in-development client and
desktop
systems much less the already-existing ones, I'd strongly disagree.
Remember too the official VSI target; OpenVMS is for server apps.
Not
for desktops. Certainly not for mobile.
VMS on a desktop or notebook is possible, but only as a VM client and
another OS (Windows, Linux, Mac) as another client, and the latter one
will be used as 'terminal'.
No objection here. I don't insist that VMS support all kinds of graphics
adapters. But it does have to support the underlying windowing system.
And the start has been there for that since the VAXStation days.
Post by Dirk Munk
The traditional VMS application has a VT user interface, as I mentioned
before. How can we replace that?
I expect the "VT User Interface" to continue to fade into obscurity.
VMS needs to provide the same options other systems provide in order
to continue and especially if it is intended to grow.
Post by Dirk Munk
I'm thinking of Java, VSI is putting much effort into Java, and I
suppose they have a good reason for it.
With the recent Oracle problems, I expect Java to have run its course
before all too long.
Post by Dirk Munk
Let's have a look at good old FMS, how did it work. If I remember
correctly, there was a design program, and the resulting form and data
fields could be called from within a VMS application. You could link
everything, and your application was ready. It didn't take much
knowledge to do this, any programmer could do this.
Now what I have been thinking of for two decades or so is a Java based
replacement.
Suppose you have a form design program written in Java, so you can use
it on Windows, Linux and MacOS. You design a form, and it will produce a
callable Java form application. This form can be called from a VMS
application, somewhat similar to the way it was done with FMS. Perhaps
there need to be two pieces of Java, one on the client side, and one on
the VMS side.
You could start such an application from within a browser (web start),
or perhaps from a DCL prompt in a terminal emulator.
This is very rough idea, but in my view it is much better and simpler
than going for a HTML based interface, and safer too. An 'infected'
browser can not interfere with the communication.
bill
Arne Vajhøj
2017-03-04 01:12:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Dirk Munk
I'm thinking of Java, VSI is putting much effort into Java, and I
suppose they have a good reason for it.
With the recent Oracle problems, I expect Java to have run its course
before all too long.
Don't hold your breath.

Java EE is sort of mature, but has not seen much real decline. And
with heavy growth in big data and Android apps ...

Arne
Stephen Hoffman
2017-03-03 16:40:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dirk Munk
This is very rough idea, but in my view it is much better and simpler
than going for a HTML based interface, and safer too. An 'infected'
browser can not interfere with the communication.
There's nothing in what you've offered that will interest enough new
developers and enough new applications to adopt OpenVMS. Not enough
to matter. Not FMS. Not DECforms. Not TDMS. Not curses. Not X.

We are just not headed back to the era of X or DECterm or SMG or FMS or
the rest of those tools, nor are we headed to a place with wholly new
apps created with droves of serial terminal emulator sessions
connecting into OpenVMS servers.

Having programmed for DECterm and SMG and FMS and TDMS and DECforms and
directly using X, that whole approach is a real slog for the developers
compared with some of the available UI development tools, too.

That approach is simply and quite reasonably viewed as more expensive
and more problematic. Both for development, and for end-user training.

Developers evaluating OpenVMS for new deployments are going to be
looking for familiar tools. For most developers — those developers
that haven't been using OpenVMS for decades — and among what's
available and reasonably feasible to provide on OpenVMS, that's
probably GTK or Qt or suchlike. GTK or Qt or maybe even ncurses might
get a few folks interested, but there just isn't going to be a growth
business in serial sessions and command line interfaces for
applications. For most developers working on server applications.
they're not using that user interface. They're not hosting the
front-end on the server. They're serving clients via APIs or via web
pages.

Java will get a few folks and will keep a few folks, but that's
platform neutral, so there needs to be rather more on offer than "just"
a current Java implementation to draw folks over to OpenVMS. Java on
the server is still going to be using something else as the front-end,
too — again, not serial connections — meaning web services or JSP
servlets or whatever.

And I have no idea what an "infected" browser is. Browsers are
probably better hardened against attacks than OpenVMS is. And if the
client is breached and a keylogger or other such is running, then a
remote serial session via ssh is in just as much trouble as a web page
accessed via HTTPS.

Command line user interfaces are for and will remain available for
legacy apps, and certainly also for developers and devops and for
troubleshooting tasks, and for automation. Where GUI tools don't
already provide that automation, or where the need to access the
command line hasn't been entirely removed for an increasing number of
common tasks. OpenVMS requires far too much effort and knowledge at
the command line already, and far too much reading that could be
completely replaced with a better UI and better automation,
unfortunately. But again, we're just not going to see serial login
sessions and terminal emulation ever become a popular user interface.

REST APIs and tools, vastly better TLS and certificate support, vastly
easier networking APIs, Tomcat or Struts or other services, fully
integrated IP networking and fully-integrated web server, those and
other pieces will interest new develoers, and will interest existing
developers looking to improve their front-end user interfaces and to
move the front-ends off the servers. Make it easier and cheaper and
more effective to work on OpenVMS and get better results, and VSI will
get new partners. Serial ASCII terminal emulator app UIs? Not so
interesting.

Get out. Use some other platforms and some other tools and IDEs.
Learn. Learn what works. Learn where OpenVMS is still good. Learn
where OpenVMS has problems. What app designs work, and work better.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
IanD
2017-03-03 18:03:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Dirk Munk
This is very rough idea, but in my view it is much better and simpler
than going for a HTML based interface, and safer too. An 'infected'
browser can not interfere with the communication.
There's nothing in what you've offered that will interest enough new
developers and enough new applications to adopt OpenVMS. Not enough
to matter. Not FMS. Not DECforms. Not TDMS. Not curses. Not X.
We are just not headed back to the era of X or DECterm or SMG or FMS or
the rest of those tools, nor are we headed to a place with wholly new
apps created with droves of serial terminal emulator sessions
connecting into OpenVMS servers.
Having programmed for DECterm and SMG and FMS and TDMS and DECforms and
directly using X, that whole approach is a real slog for the developers
compared with some of the available UI development tools, too.
That approach is simply and quite reasonably viewed as more expensive
and more problematic. Both for development, and for end-user training.
Developers evaluating OpenVMS for new deployments are going to be
looking for familiar tools. For most developers — those developers
that haven't been using OpenVMS for decades — and among what's
available and reasonably feasible to provide on OpenVMS, that's
probably GTK or Qt or suchlike. GTK or Qt or maybe even ncurses might
get a few folks interested, but there just isn't going to be a growth
business in serial sessions and command line interfaces for
applications. For most developers working on server applications.
they're not using that user interface. They're not hosting the
front-end on the server. They're serving clients via APIs or via web
pages.
Java will get a few folks and will keep a few folks, but that's
platform neutral, so there needs to be rather more on offer than "just"
a current Java implementation to draw folks over to OpenVMS. Java on
the server is still going to be using something else as the front-end,
too — again, not serial connections — meaning web services or JSP
servlets or whatever.
And I have no idea what an "infected" browser is. Browsers are
probably better hardened against attacks than OpenVMS is. And if the
client is breached and a keylogger or other such is running, then a
remote serial session via ssh is in just as much trouble as a web page
accessed via HTTPS.
Command line user interfaces are for and will remain available for
legacy apps, and certainly also for developers and devops and for
troubleshooting tasks, and for automation. Where GUI tools don't
already provide that automation, or where the need to access the
command line hasn't been entirely removed for an increasing number of
common tasks. OpenVMS requires far too much effort and knowledge at
the command line already, and far too much reading that could be
completely replaced with a better UI and better automation,
unfortunately. But again, we're just not going to see serial login
sessions and terminal emulation ever become a popular user interface.
REST APIs and tools, vastly better TLS and certificate support, vastly
easier networking APIs, Tomcat or Struts or other services, fully
integrated IP networking and fully-integrated web server, those and
other pieces will interest new develoers, and will interest existing
developers looking to improve their front-end user interfaces and to
move the front-ends off the servers. Make it easier and cheaper and
more effective to work on OpenVMS and get better results, and VSI will
get new partners. Serial ASCII terminal emulator app UIs? Not so
interesting.
Get out. Use some other platforms and some other tools and IDEs.
Learn. Learn what works. Learn where OpenVMS is still good. Learn
where OpenVMS has problems. What app designs work, and work better.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
+100

New shops are not using these things nor have any interest in inefficient technologies that will require developers, architects and what have you to learn tools that are platform locked unless they give you huge productivity boosts

The ones you listed on VMS gave the productivity boosts 15-20 years ago but the world has moved on

Now one can get open source tools that will let you model whole applications graphically and export everything from the class frameworks to documentation and a lot of stuff in between

The ship has sailed in terms of creating a GUI on VMS to support development unless your going to create something that will allow you to export/deploy/support other platforms and that's a task that would eat up huge volumes of cash for no gain

Better to spend the money on reforming VMS so that it can be a target for deployment from other framework systems so that the exit from VMS that is accelerating slows or maybe optimistically halts

Linux has won. You either turn into it or mimic it to an extent so as to be able to interface with it with least amount of pain possible or face extinction

After you have done this and stopped the bleeding, then maybe one can use the platform advantages to bring product and services to market that the world might actually pay for but this too is going to be a hard ask

I rub shoulders with a lot of developers and architects. Almost no new shops are deploying on Windows as a platform unless they are a Windows ship already. It's all Linux android zero VMS. It's about taking existing packaging and tools and reforming into new deployments in rapid a time frame possible. 2 week release cycles of major software changes including testing is considered long these days. Business wants everything pushed under a minor works aspect so as to keep things within an operational budget versus projects. VMS till sets and development frameworks do not really support this type of rapid centralised framework development

Java and the Java VM would be a better bet to lever off until VMS fills in the cash to allow work to be done on native gui's etc, if ever

Better to spend the money on setting up better porting frameworks and rapid building deployments for open source so to keep VMS stocked with up to date open source releases instead of the often archaic version support that is often the case today

I was looking at rabbitmq today and how it of date that is now on VMS. This led me to look at Erlang on VMS which is also out of date by a long way

I think VMS will get better bang for buck and attract more fill of it spends the money on keeping open source relevant on the platform than sinking money into a GUI do as to support development on the platform, at least for now
Stephen Hoffman
2017-03-03 20:12:54 UTC
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Post by IanD
Now one can get open source tools that will let you model whole
applications graphically and export everything from the class
frameworks to documentation and a lot of stuff in between
And for all sorts of related tasks... Open-sourced just yesterday...
https://opensource.googleblog.com/2017/03/python-fire-command-line.html
But then dealing with the OpenVMS CLI callbacks is a code-slog too, as
is the getopt and getopt_long slog for C applications using native UIs.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
Craig A. Berry
2017-03-03 21:45:04 UTC
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Post by IanD
Java and the Java VM would be a better bet to lever off until VMS
fills in the cash to allow work to be done on native gui's etc, if
ever
What do you think Java's AWT and Swing capabilities on VMS are based on?
As far as I know, you don't get GUIs in Java for free without any
underlying windowing implementation, which means maintaining that
implementation and maintaining the port of the Java components that sit
on top of it. ISTR HP left out the GUI components in its last Java
version for VMS, or maybe they were there but unqualified and
unsupported. Don't know what we'll see in VSI's upcoming Java 1.8, due
this quarter per the roadmap.
Arne Vajhøj
2017-03-04 01:01:34 UTC
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Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by IanD
Java and the Java VM would be a better bet to lever off until VMS
fills in the cash to allow work to be done on native gui's etc, if
ever
What do you think Java's AWT and Swing capabilities on VMS are based on?
As far as I know, you don't get GUIs in Java for free without any
underlying windowing implementation, which means maintaining that
implementation and maintaining the port of the Java components that sit
on top of it.
Yes.

But if one want to have GUI on something else and functionality on
VMS, then the RMI programming model is very easy to go to.
Post by Craig A. Berry
ISTR HP left out the GUI components in its last Java
version for VMS, or maybe they were there but unqualified and
unsupported.
Sure about that?

Calling something Java that does not contain everything supposed
to be in Java costed MS 20 M$.

Given Oracle and HP's relationship in recent years, then I would
be surprised if HP could get away with that.
Post by Craig A. Berry
Don't know what we'll see in VSI's upcoming Java 1.8, due
this quarter per the roadmap.
I had not heard that.

Super cool.

Do we know if it will run on HP VMS?

Arne
Craig A. Berry
2017-03-04 02:01:37 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Craig A. Berry
ISTR HP left out the GUI components in its last Java
version for VMS, or maybe they were there but unqualified and
unsupported.
Sure about that?
Not at all. Perhaps I'm remembering the reason HP never did Java 1.7 --
isn't that when JavaFX became part of the Java standard?
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Calling something Java that does not contain everything supposed
to be in Java costed MS 20 M$.
Given Oracle and HP's relationship in recent years, then I would
be surprised if HP could get away with that.
Post by Craig A. Berry
Don't know what we'll see in VSI's upcoming Java 1.8, due
this quarter per the roadmap.
I had not heard that.
Super cool.
Do we know if it will run on HP VMS?
Dunno. What I've heard is here, where Brett Cameron says the port was
done "in collaboration with HPE":

<http://blog.ecubesystems.com/brett-cameron-interview/>
Arne Vajhøj
2017-03-04 02:08:25 UTC
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Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Craig A. Berry
ISTR HP left out the GUI components in its last Java
version for VMS, or maybe they were there but unqualified and
unsupported.
Sure about that?
Not at all. Perhaps I'm remembering the reason HP never did Java 1.7 --
isn't that when JavaFX became part of the Java standard?
JavaFX runtime has been part of Oracle Java since 1.7 update 6.

Full JavaFX has been distributed with Oracle Java since 1.8.

It supposed to become part of Java in a future version.

The difference between being distributed with Oracle Java and
being part of Java is that it is currently not required for
other Java implementations (IBM, HP, Azul etc.) to include
JavaFX.
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Craig A. Berry
Don't know what we'll see in VSI's upcoming Java 1.8, due
this quarter per the roadmap.
I had not heard that.
Super cool.
Do we know if it will run on HP VMS?
Dunno. What I've heard is here, where Brett Cameron says the port was
<http://blog.ecubesystems.com/brett-cameron-interview/>
I will read that.

Java 8 on VMS - both VSI and HP and maybe both Integrity and
Alpha would be nice.

Arne
Craig A. Berry
2017-03-04 03:41:54 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Java 8 on VMS - both VSI and HP and maybe both Integrity and
Alpha would be nice.
Sure, but it seems highly unlikely anyone would pour the requisite
resources into the JIT stuff for Alpha.
Robert A. Brooks
2017-03-04 04:35:48 UTC
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Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Java 8 on VMS - both VSI and HP and maybe both Integrity and
Alpha would be nice.
Sure, but it seems highly unlikely anyone would pour the requisite
resources into the JIT stuff for Alpha.
Java 8 will be available for both HP and VSI IA64; not on Alpha.
--
-- Rob
Richard Maher
2017-03-04 01:08:20 UTC
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Post by Dirk Munk
I totally agree, that is the most important issue. It should be easy to
incorporate a GUI in a VMS application written in one (or more) VMS
languages. A simple example, a Cobol program with a GUI.
You mean like just providing a shareable image of 6 routines that would
be automatically invoked in a managed server environment? INIT, FINI,
SESSION START/END, RECEIVE, and INTERRUPT? All the network comms and
server load balancing done for you? Min/MAX servers TTL?

WHAT A GREAT FUCKING IDEA? Let's call it say "Tier3". What a bunch of
numpties :-(

To date it was dependent on the now defunct Java Applets for client
socket instansiation. Mozilla had native sockets in B2G and I don't see
it happening any time soon with any current User Agents but you never
know. (BTW HTML/2 Stole my multiplexing socket idea. See WHATWG forum
for bread crumbs)

In the mean-time and in the abscence of a port of .NET to VMS, I suggest
Java dishing up JSON after calling COBOL, BASIC et al
Arne Vajhøj
2017-03-04 01:20:10 UTC
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Post by Dirk Munk
I'm thinking of Java, VSI is putting much effort into Java, and I
suppose they have a good reason for it.
If they get the basic JRE/JDK working then there is a lot
of stuff that just works.
Post by Dirk Munk
Let's have a look at good old FMS, how did it work. If I remember
correctly, there was a design program, and the resulting form and data
fields could be called from within a VMS application. You could link
everything, and your application was ready. It didn't take much
knowledge to do this, any programmer could do this.
Now what I have been thinking of for two decades or so is a Java based
replacement.
Suppose you have a form design program written in Java, so you can use
it on Windows, Linux and MacOS. You design a form, and it will produce a
callable Java form application. This form can be called from a VMS
application, somewhat similar to the way it was done with FMS. Perhaps
there need to be two pieces of Java, one on the client side, and one on
the VMS side.
You could start such an application from within a browser (web start),
or perhaps from a DCL prompt in a terminal emulator.
This is very rough idea, but in my view it is much better and simpler
than going for a HTML based interface, and safer too. An 'infected'
browser can not interfere with the communication.
I am not even sure that you need to create something that generates
Java GUI code from a form description.

With JavaFX you can do the form in FXML. So an FXML editor may be
sufficient.

Action code can even be done in both pure Java and a combination
of JavaScript and Java.

Markup language + CSS + JS is a combo that millions of developers
know well.

Regarding the client/server communication, then RMI makes that
simple.

Arne
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2017-03-01 21:21:34 UTC
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Post by Dirk Munk
So VMS needs a GUI.
Says who?
Post by Dirk Munk
And we also know that the 'old' DecWindows interface is a bit obsolete.
What about the `new' DecWindows interface (CDE)? Isn't that good enough
for 99% of VMS users?
Post by Dirk Munk
And now VT terminals are really gone, shouldn't VMS be packed with a
Windows, Linux and MAC VT emulator that can do everything a real VT
terminal can do?
After all, VMS applications that were designed using the more advanced
possibilities of VT terminals should work properly on terminal emulators
also.
The good emulator needs to be on the other system; what is "VMS be
packed with"?
David Froble
2017-03-01 22:28:11 UTC
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Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Dirk Munk
So VMS needs a GUI.
Says who?
Post by Dirk Munk
And we also know that the 'old' DecWindows interface is a bit obsolete.
What about the `new' DecWindows interface (CDE)? Isn't that good enough
for 99% of VMS users?
Now, Philip could be right. If 99% of VMS users don't use the GUI, then just
about any GUI is "good enough" for them.

:-)
Paul Sture
2017-03-01 22:51:11 UTC
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Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Dirk Munk
So VMS needs a GUI.
Says who?
Post by Dirk Munk
And we also know that the 'old' DecWindows interface is a bit obsolete.
What about the `new' DecWindows interface (CDE)? Isn't that good enough
for 99% of VMS users?
There is now an open source version of CDE, so previous licencing issues
have presumably disappeared. I have no idea how much work porting the
appropriate client* giblets to VMS might take.

* remembering that in the X11 world, the system with the display unit
is the server
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Dirk Munk
And now VT terminals are really gone, shouldn't VMS be packed with a
Windows, Linux and MAC VT emulator that can do everything a real VT
terminal can do?
what is "VMS be packed with"?
I read that as "packaged with".
--
A supercomputer is a device for turning compute-bound problems into
I/O-bound problems. ---Ken Batcher
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