Discussion:
VSI Python 3.8.2 port, with a OpenVMS Shark Logo...
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Stephen Hoffman
2020-11-21 18:42:09 UTC
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VSI has announced a recent Python port for OpenVMS. (Python 3.9 and
3.8.6 are the most current.)

https://twitter.com/VMSSoftware/status/1329794043556098051

As for the new or new-to-me OpenVMS logo shown, there's a /fin joke
here somewhere, I just know it.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
Chris Townley
2020-11-21 19:18:16 UTC
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Post by Stephen Hoffman
VSI has announced a recent Python port for OpenVMS. (Python 3.9 and
3.8.6 are the most current.)
https://twitter.com/VMSSoftware/status/1329794043556098051
As for the new or new-to-me OpenVMS logo shown, there's a /fin joke here
somewhere, I just know it.
From first look this is I64 only?

Is this the future of Alpha here?

Chris
Craig A. Berry
2020-11-21 23:18:12 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Chris Townley
Post by Stephen Hoffman
VSI has announced a recent Python port for OpenVMS. (Python 3.9 and
3.8.6 are the most current.)
https://twitter.com/VMSSoftware/status/1329794043556098051
As for the new or new-to-me OpenVMS logo shown, there's a /fin joke
here somewhere, I just know it.
From first look this is I64 only?
Is this the future of Alpha here?
Um, the future of Alpha has been pretty clear since it was discontinued
a couple of decades ago. VSI does still produce Alpha kits for many (but
not all) of its open source ports, though often shortly after the
Itanium kits appear.

In the particular case of Python 3.x, however, I'm not sure if anyone
has yet ported the requisite libffi library to Alpha. Last I heard,
doing so required knowledge of Alpha assembler, DWARF, Alpha function
signature details, and the OpenVMS calling standard. Possibly other
things I'm forgetting. People with all the necessary skills probably
have other things to do. Have you opened a ticket with VSI to ask for
support?
Chris Townley
2020-11-21 23:27:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Stephen Hoffman
VSI has announced a recent Python port for OpenVMS. (Python 3.9 and
3.8.6 are the most current.)
https://twitter.com/VMSSoftware/status/1329794043556098051
As for the new or new-to-me OpenVMS logo shown, there's a /fin joke
here somewhere, I just know it.
 From first look this is I64 only?
Is this the future of Alpha here?
Um, the future of Alpha has been pretty clear since it was discontinued
a couple of decades ago. VSI does still produce Alpha kits for many (but
not all) of its open source ports, though often shortly after the
Itanium kits appear.
In the particular case of Python 3.x, however, I'm not sure if anyone
has yet ported the requisite libffi library to Alpha.  Last I heard,
doing so required knowledge of Alpha assembler, DWARF, Alpha function
signature details, and the OpenVMS calling standard.  Possibly other
things I'm forgetting.  People with all the necessary skills probably
have other things to do. Have you opened a ticket with VSI to ask for
support?
No, I am on the CL a license!

When I saw the announcement, I thought something else I can play with,
but perhaps not...

Chris
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2020-11-22 00:38:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Chris Townley
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Stephen Hoffman
VSI has announced a recent Python port for OpenVMS. (Python 3.9 and
3.8.6 are the most current.)
https://twitter.com/VMSSoftware/status/1329794043556098051
As for the new or new-to-me OpenVMS logo shown, there's a /fin joke
here somewhere, I just know it.
 From first look this is I64 only?
Is this the future of Alpha here?
Um, the future of Alpha has been pretty clear since it was discontinued
a couple of decades ago. VSI does still produce Alpha kits for many (but
not all) of its open source ports, though often shortly after the
Itanium kits appear.
In the particular case of Python 3.x, however, I'm not sure if anyone
has yet ported the requisite libffi library to Alpha.  Last I heard,
doing so required knowledge of Alpha assembler, DWARF, Alpha function
signature details, and the OpenVMS calling standard.  Possibly other
things I'm forgetting.  People with all the necessary skills probably
have other things to do. Have you opened a ticket with VSI to ask for
support?
No, I am on the CL a license!
When I saw the announcement, I thought something else I can play with, but
perhaps not...
Chris
If you just like to play with Python, the Python 2 kit for VMS
works just fine. https://www.vmspython.org/doku.php
Chris Townley
2020-11-22 00:53:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Chris Townley
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Stephen Hoffman
VSI has announced a recent Python port for OpenVMS. (Python 3.9 and
3.8.6 are the most current.)
https://twitter.com/VMSSoftware/status/1329794043556098051
As for the new or new-to-me OpenVMS logo shown, there's a /fin joke
here somewhere, I just know it.
 From first look this is I64 only?
Is this the future of Alpha here?
Um, the future of Alpha has been pretty clear since it was discontinued
a couple of decades ago. VSI does still produce Alpha kits for many (but
not all) of its open source ports, though often shortly after the
Itanium kits appear.
In the particular case of Python 3.x, however, I'm not sure if anyone
has yet ported the requisite libffi library to Alpha.  Last I heard,
doing so required knowledge of Alpha assembler, DWARF, Alpha function
signature details, and the OpenVMS calling standard.  Possibly other
things I'm forgetting.  People with all the necessary skills probably
have other things to do. Have you opened a ticket with VSI to ask for
support?
No, I am on the CL a license!
When I saw the announcement, I thought something else I can play with,
but perhaps not...
Chris
If you just like to play with Python, the Python 2 kit for VMS
works just fine. https://www.vmspython.org/doku.php
But I have only played with Python 3

Chris
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2020-11-22 01:02:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Chris Townley
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Chris Townley
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Stephen Hoffman
VSI has announced a recent Python port for OpenVMS. (Python 3.9 and
3.8.6 are the most current.)
https://twitter.com/VMSSoftware/status/1329794043556098051
As for the new or new-to-me OpenVMS logo shown, there's a /fin joke
here somewhere, I just know it.
 From first look this is I64 only?
Is this the future of Alpha here?
Um, the future of Alpha has been pretty clear since it was discontinued
a couple of decades ago. VSI does still produce Alpha kits for many (but
not all) of its open source ports, though often shortly after the
Itanium kits appear.
In the particular case of Python 3.x, however, I'm not sure if anyone
has yet ported the requisite libffi library to Alpha.  Last I heard,
doing so required knowledge of Alpha assembler, DWARF, Alpha function
signature details, and the OpenVMS calling standard.  Possibly other
things I'm forgetting.  People with all the necessary skills probably
have other things to do. Have you opened a ticket with VSI to ask for
support?
No, I am on the CL a license!
When I saw the announcement, I thought something else I can play with,
but perhaps not...
Chris
If you just like to play with Python, the Python 2 kit for VMS
works just fine. https://www.vmspython.org/doku.php
But I have only played with Python 3
Chris
OK. And I have never used Python 3... :-) As I understand, the
diffeences are not that large, but some are critical...
Stephen Hoffman
2020-11-22 01:13:34 UTC
Reply
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Post by Chris Townley
Post by Chris Townley
No, I am on the CL a license!
When I saw the announcement, I thought something else I can play with,
but perhaps not...
If you just like to play with Python, the Python 2 kit for VMS works
just fine. https://www.vmspython.org/doku.php
But I have only played with Python 3
OpenVMS is probably not the best platform to learn about new software
and new apps.

Learning about older software, older apps, and older configurations, yes.

Little of what development tooling is presently available for OpenVMS
is a current version.

Some isn't even a remotely recent version.

While there are a few exceptions to this, Fortran, C, and C++ are all
compliant with older standards.

The C support was only recently updated to add some pieces central to C99.

BASIC and COBOL haven't seen consequential updates in a couple of
decades, beyond the platform ports.

VSI is working to address this and other issues, and has discussed
compiler updates, but pretty much all of the new VSI work and the VSI
updates are targeting x86-64.

Call back next year, when the second beta (V9.1, with mostly-native
tooling) is expected to be available (for x86-64).
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
Chris Townley
2020-11-22 01:19:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Chris Townley
Post by Chris Townley
No, I am on the CL a license!
When I saw the announcement, I thought something else I can play
with, but perhaps not...
If you just like to play with Python, the Python 2 kit for VMS works
just fine. https://www.vmspython.org/doku.php
But I have only played with Python 3
OpenVMS is probably not the best platform to learn about new software
and new apps.
Learning about older software, older apps, and older configurations, yes.
Little of what development tooling is presently available for OpenVMS is
a current version.
Some isn't even a remotely recent version.
While there are a few exceptions to this, Fortran, C, and C++ are all
compliant with older standards.
The C support was only recently updated to add some pieces central to C99.
BASIC and COBOL haven't seen consequential updates in a couple of
decades, beyond the platform ports.
VSI is working to address this and other issues, and has discussed
compiler updates, but pretty much all of the new VSI work and the VSI
updates are targeting x86-64.
Call back next year, when the second beta (V9.1, with mostly-native
tooling) is expected to be available (for x86-64).
Thanks, but I have a few Raspberry Pis, and have played there. However I
wanted to justify my use of VMS a bit!

Kinda got the VMS bug back!


Chris
Bill Gunshannon
2020-11-22 01:39:32 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Stephen Hoffman
BASIC and COBOL haven't seen consequential updates in a couple of
decades, beyond the platform ports.
Pretty sure VMS BASIC does everything any other BASIC does and more. :-)

As for COBOL, luckily the COBOL world refused to drink the OOP KoolAid
so the current COBOL running on OpenVMS has everything that a COBOL
Programmer needs. (Sadly, as the number of available COBOL Programmers
decreases due to retirement and death the people likely to be tasked
with taking over the current COBOL base and writing anything new will
probably lead to COBOL also being infected. But, such is the nature of
our industry!!)

bill
John Reagan
2020-11-22 01:53:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Stephen Hoffman
BASIC and COBOL haven't seen consequential updates in a couple of
decades, beyond the platform ports.
Pretty sure VMS BASIC does everything any other BASIC does and more. :-)
As for COBOL, luckily the COBOL world refused to drink the OOP KoolAid
so the current COBOL running on OpenVMS has everything that a COBOL
Programmer needs. (Sadly, as the number of available COBOL Programmers
decreases due to retirement and death the people likely to be tasked
with taking over the current COBOL base and writing anything new will
probably lead to COBOL also being infected. But, such is the nature of
our industry!!)
bill
Oh, you haven't been keeping track of the COBOL standards. It has full OOP in it.

Ignoring that set of features, the COBOL 2000 standard has several interesting features that VMS COBOL never fully picked up other than a few reserved words.
Bill Gunshannon
2020-11-22 02:06:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Reagan
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Stephen Hoffman
BASIC and COBOL haven't seen consequential updates in a couple of
decades, beyond the platform ports.
Pretty sure VMS BASIC does everything any other BASIC does and more. :-)
As for COBOL, luckily the COBOL world refused to drink the OOP KoolAid
so the current COBOL running on OpenVMS has everything that a COBOL
Programmer needs. (Sadly, as the number of available COBOL Programmers
decreases due to retirement and death the people likely to be tasked
with taking over the current COBOL base and writing anything new will
probably lead to COBOL also being infected. But, such is the nature of
our industry!!)
bill
Oh, you haven't been keeping track of the COBOL standards. It has full OOP in it.
I'm well aware of the standard. I am also well aware of the fact the
the majority of COBOL shops didn't ask for it to be added to COBOL and
pretty much refused to use it. As an aside, this is considered to be
one of the primary reasons why academia abandoned COBOL and even went
so far as to actively attack it. How dare the COBOL world to want to
get the job done rather than accept that academia knows better than they
do about what they really needed.
Post by John Reagan
Ignoring that set of features, the COBOL 2000 standard has several interesting features that VMS COBOL never fully picked up other than a few reserved words.
Ignoring unneeded and unwanted features is something that the real
COBOL world has always been good at. There are a number of very
large and very important COBOL Information Systems that still fall
under the 1974 standard. Nobody is as good at "If it ain't broke,
donb't fix it!" as COBOL Programmers.

bill
Arne Vajhøj
2020-11-22 02:14:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Reagan
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Stephen Hoffman
BASIC and COBOL haven't seen consequential updates in a couple
of decades, beyond the platform ports.
Pretty sure VMS BASIC does everything any other BASIC does and more. :-)
As for COBOL, luckily the COBOL world refused to drink the OOP
KoolAid so the current COBOL running on OpenVMS has everything that
a COBOL Programmer needs. (Sadly, as the number of available COBOL
Programmers decreases due to retirement and death the people likely
to be tasked with taking over the current COBOL base and writing
anything new will probably lead to COBOL also being infected. But,
such is the nature of our industry!!)
Oh, you haven't been keeping track of the COBOL standards. It has full OOP in it.
2002 and 2014

But it is not my impression that all that new stuff is used much.
If the desire is to change the paradigm, then COBOL get replaced
with another language. If the desire is to just add a few new features
without rocking the boat, then 85 code is fine.
Post by John Reagan
Ignoring that set of features, the COBOL 2000 standard has several
interesting features that VMS COBOL never fully picked up other than
a few reserved words.
Are the demand for upgrading from 85 to 2002/2014?

Arne
Arne Vajhøj
2020-11-22 02:09:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Stephen Hoffman
BASIC and COBOL haven't seen consequential updates in a couple of
decades, beyond the platform ports.
Pretty sure VMS BASIC does everything any other BASIC does and more. :-)
Not if you include Visual Basic in any other Basic.

VB.NET got a lot of features.

Arne
Dave Froble
2020-11-22 03:55:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Chris Townley
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
If you just like to play with Python, the Python 2 kit for VMS
works just fine. https://www.vmspython.org/doku.php
But I have only played with Python 3
Chris
Perhaps its time to learn something new^h^h^hold ....

:-)
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Jean-François Piéronne
2020-11-23 07:57:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Stephen Hoffman
VSI has announced a recent Python port for OpenVMS. (Python 3.9 and
3.8.6 are the most current.)
https://twitter.com/VMSSoftware/status/1329794043556098051
As for the new or new-to-me OpenVMS logo shown, there's a /fin joke
here somewhere, I just know it.
 From first look this is I64 only?
Is this the future of Alpha here?
Um, the future of Alpha has been pretty clear since it was discontinued
a couple of decades ago. VSI does still produce Alpha kits for many (but
not all) of its open source ports, though often shortly after the
Itanium kits appear.
In the particular case of Python 3.x, however, I'm not sure if anyone
has yet ported the requisite libffi library to Alpha.  Last I heard,
doing so required knowledge of Alpha assembler, DWARF, Alpha function
signature details, and the OpenVMS calling standard.  Possibly other
things I'm forgetting.  People with all the necessary skills probably
have other things to do. Have you opened a ticket with VSI to ask for
support?
When we do the port, Philippe Vouters and I, of libffi to OpenVMS we
(mostly Philippe) do the port for Alpha and I64.

In fact, we do the port for Python.

So you can build Python 3 on Alpha without any problem.

A few months ago I have asked if anyone is interested having a Python
3.10 on Alpha, no replies, as all customers who use Python on OpenVMS
are on I64, I only ld images for I64.

All the sources, Python 3.10 and libffi and others are on
https://foss.vmsgenerations.org/

So if you want a Python 3 on Alpha it's not very difficult to build it.

And Python 3.10 will be provided on X86-64, I have build some libraries
without any problem, the only expected one will be libffi.

The Python 3.10 port have the same VMS extension as the 2.7 version.
This is very important for customers who have large Python applications
on VMS.

Currently, the only limitation is that Python 3.10 expect some modern
CRTL so need VSI VMS version with latest CRTL patches. But I know
someone which is investigating is it can be backported to 8.4 HP version.



JFP
--
L'absence de virus dans ce courrier électronique a été vérifiée par le logiciel antivirus Avast.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Craig A. Berry
2020-11-23 14:03:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jean-François Piéronne
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Stephen Hoffman
VSI has announced a recent Python port for OpenVMS. (Python 3.9 and
3.8.6 are the most current.)
https://twitter.com/VMSSoftware/status/1329794043556098051
As for the new or new-to-me OpenVMS logo shown, there's a /fin joke
here somewhere, I just know it.
 From first look this is I64 only?
Is this the future of Alpha here?
Um, the future of Alpha has been pretty clear since it was discontinued
a couple of decades ago. VSI does still produce Alpha kits for many (but
not all) of its open source ports, though often shortly after the
Itanium kits appear.
In the particular case of Python 3.x, however, I'm not sure if anyone
has yet ported the requisite libffi library to Alpha.  Last I heard,
doing so required knowledge of Alpha assembler, DWARF, Alpha function
signature details, and the OpenVMS calling standard.  Possibly other
things I'm forgetting.  People with all the necessary skills probably
have other things to do. Have you opened a ticket with VSI to ask for
support?
When we do the port, Philippe Vouters and I, of libffi to OpenVMS we
(mostly Philippe) do the port for Alpha and I64.
Good to know. Only the IA64 port is available here:

<https://vmsfree.ouvaton.org/freen/index.php?s=libffi>
Post by Jean-François Piéronne
In fact, we do the port for Python.
So you can build Python 3 on Alpha without any problem.
A few months ago I have asked if anyone is interested having a Python
3.10 on Alpha, no replies, as all customers who use Python on OpenVMS
are on I64, I only ld images for I64.
All the sources, Python 3.10 and libffi and others are on
https://foss.vmsgenerations.org/
Which points to a GitLab sign-in page. Apparently one has to have an
account to see anything there. Which also means nothing there will turn
up in a web search because the search engines won't be able to see
anything behind the authentication wall.
Post by Jean-François Piéronne
So if you want a Python 3 on Alpha it's not very difficult to build it.
And Python 3.10 will be provided on X86-64, I have build some libraries
without any problem, the only expected one will be libffi.
The Python 3.10 port have the same VMS extension as the 2.7 version.
This is very important for customers who have large Python applications
on VMS.
Currently, the only limitation is that Python 3.10 expect some modern
CRTL so need VSI VMS version with latest CRTL patches. But I know
someone which is investigating is it can be backported to 8.4 HP version.
JFP
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2020-11-23 14:27:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Jean-François Piéronne
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Stephen Hoffman
VSI has announced a recent Python port for OpenVMS. (Python 3.9 and
3.8.6 are the most current.)
https://twitter.com/VMSSoftware/status/1329794043556098051
As for the new or new-to-me OpenVMS logo shown, there's a /fin joke
here somewhere, I just know it.
  From first look this is I64 only?
Is this the future of Alpha here?
Um, the future of Alpha has been pretty clear since it was discontinued
a couple of decades ago. VSI does still produce Alpha kits for many (but
not all) of its open source ports, though often shortly after the
Itanium kits appear.
In the particular case of Python 3.x, however, I'm not sure if anyone
has yet ported the requisite libffi library to Alpha.  Last I heard,
doing so required knowledge of Alpha assembler, DWARF, Alpha function
signature details, and the OpenVMS calling standard.  Possibly other
things I'm forgetting.  People with all the necessary skills probably
have other things to do. Have you opened a ticket with VSI to ask for
support?
When we do the port, Philippe Vouters and I, of libffi to OpenVMS we
(mostly Philippe) do the port for Alpha and I64.
<https://vmsfree.ouvaton.org/freen/index.php?s=libffi>
Post by Jean-François Piéronne
In fact, we do the port for Python.
So you can build Python 3 on Alpha without any problem.
A few months ago I have asked if anyone is interested having a Python
3.10 on Alpha, no replies, as all customers who use Python on OpenVMS
are on I64, I only ld images for I64.
All the sources, Python 3.10 and libffi and others are on
https://foss.vmsgenerations.org/
Which points to a GitLab sign-in page.  Apparently one has to have an
account to see anything there.  Which also means nothing there will turn
up in a web search because the search engines won't be able to see
anything behind the authentication wall.
Post by Jean-François Piéronne
So if you want a Python 3 on Alpha it's not very difficult to build it.
And Python 3.10 will be provided on X86-64, I have build some libraries
without any problem, the only expected one will be libffi.
The Python 3.10 port have the same VMS extension as the 2.7 version.
This is very important for customers who have large Python applications
on VMS.
Currently, the only limitation is that Python 3.10 expect some modern
CRTL so need VSI VMS version with latest CRTL patches. But I know
someone which is investigating is it can be backported to 8.4 HP version.
JFP
I do not see why an account to see the vmsgenerations content is an issue.

I find it more noteworthy that JFP has a Python 3.10 available for IA64
since some time back (this summer) while the VSI version is currently on
3.9 or 3.8.6.

And the JFP version seems to be buildable for Alpha. I got a login to
the repository some time ago (just ask if you are interested),, but have
had no time to look at it. I’m not sure how much effort it is to setup
the build environment…
David Jones
2020-11-23 16:05:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
And the JFP version seems to be buildable for Alpha. I got a login to
the repository some time ago (just ask if you are interested),, but have
had no time to look at it. I’m not sure how much effort it is to setup
the build environment…
I tried it earlier this year and right off the bat ran into issues with the zip utility
mangling the filenames and the mms files assuming devices lda11: and disk$repos
where present on the system. I gave up.

It doesn't look like anything has changed.
Richard Brodie
2020-11-23 16:19:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
I find it more noteworthy that JFP has a Python 3.10 available for IA64
since some time back (this summer) while the VSI version is currently on
3.9 or 3.8.6.
3.8.6 is the current release. Personally, although I use JF's version myself, I am
quite happy that VSI aren't shipping Alpha releases.
Craig A. Berry
2020-11-23 16:27:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Jean-François Piéronne
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Stephen Hoffman
VSI has announced a recent Python port for OpenVMS. (Python 3.9 and
3.8.6 are the most current.)
https://twitter.com/VMSSoftware/status/1329794043556098051
As for the new or new-to-me OpenVMS logo shown, there's a /fin joke
here somewhere, I just know it.
  From first look this is I64 only?
Is this the future of Alpha here?
Um, the future of Alpha has been pretty clear since it was discontinued
a couple of decades ago. VSI does still produce Alpha kits for many (but
not all) of its open source ports, though often shortly after the
Itanium kits appear.
In the particular case of Python 3.x, however, I'm not sure if anyone
has yet ported the requisite libffi library to Alpha.  Last I heard,
doing so required knowledge of Alpha assembler, DWARF, Alpha function
signature details, and the OpenVMS calling standard.  Possibly other
things I'm forgetting.  People with all the necessary skills probably
have other things to do. Have you opened a ticket with VSI to ask for
support?
When we do the port, Philippe Vouters and I, of libffi to OpenVMS we
(mostly Philippe) do the port for Alpha and I64.
<https://vmsfree.ouvaton.org/freen/index.php?s=libffi>
Post by Jean-François Piéronne
In fact, we do the port for Python.
So you can build Python 3 on Alpha without any problem.
A few months ago I have asked if anyone is interested having a Python
3.10 on Alpha, no replies, as all customers who use Python on OpenVMS
are on I64, I only ld images for I64.
All the sources, Python 3.10 and libffi and others are on
https://foss.vmsgenerations.org/
Which points to a GitLab sign-in page.  Apparently one has to have an
account to see anything there.  Which also means nothing there will turn
up in a web search because the search engines won't be able to see
anything behind the authentication wall.
Post by Jean-François Piéronne
So if you want a Python 3 on Alpha it's not very difficult to build it.
And Python 3.10 will be provided on X86-64, I have build some libraries
without any problem, the only expected one will be libffi.
The Python 3.10 port have the same VMS extension as the 2.7 version.
This is very important for customers who have large Python applications
on VMS.
Currently, the only limitation is that Python 3.10 expect some modern
CRTL so need VSI VMS version with latest CRTL patches. But I know
someone which is investigating is it can be backported to 8.4 HP version.
JFP
I do not see why an account to see the vmsgenerations content is an issue.
I already explained that people who don't know it's there will never be
able to find it. It's also just another hoop to jump through when it's
easy enough to allow public access to a GitLab project:

<https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/public_access/public_access.html>
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
I find it more noteworthy that JFP has a Python 3.10 available for IA64
since some time back (this summer) while the VSI version is currently on
3.9 or 3.8.6.
JFP's work is exemplary but 3.10 is still in pre-release and really
should not be used in production. VSI's release of 3.8.2 is pretty much
in line with what other vendors are doing, assuming they have even moved
to Python 3.
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2020-11-23 17:11:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Jean-François Piéronne
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Stephen Hoffman
VSI has announced a recent Python port for OpenVMS. (Python 3.9 and
3.8.6 are the most current.)
https://twitter.com/VMSSoftware/status/1329794043556098051
As for the new or new-to-me OpenVMS logo shown, there's a /fin joke
here somewhere, I just know it.
  From first look this is I64 only?
Is this the future of Alpha here?
Um, the future of Alpha has been pretty clear since it was discontinued
a couple of decades ago. VSI does still produce Alpha kits for many (but
not all) of its open source ports, though often shortly after the
Itanium kits appear.
In the particular case of Python 3.x, however, I'm not sure if anyone
has yet ported the requisite libffi library to Alpha.  Last I heard,
doing so required knowledge of Alpha assembler, DWARF, Alpha function
signature details, and the OpenVMS calling standard.  Possibly other
things I'm forgetting.  People with all the necessary skills probably
have other things to do. Have you opened a ticket with VSI to ask for
support?
When we do the port, Philippe Vouters and I, of libffi to OpenVMS we
(mostly Philippe) do the port for Alpha and I64.
<https://vmsfree.ouvaton.org/freen/index.php?s=libffi>
Post by Jean-François Piéronne
In fact, we do the port for Python.
So you can build Python 3 on Alpha without any problem.
A few months ago I have asked if anyone is interested having a Python
3.10 on Alpha, no replies, as all customers who use Python on OpenVMS
are on I64, I only ld images for I64.
All the sources, Python 3.10 and libffi and others are on
https://foss.vmsgenerations.org/
Which points to a GitLab sign-in page.  Apparently one has to have an
account to see anything there.  Which also means nothing there will turn
up in a web search because the search engines won't be able to see
anything behind the authentication wall.
Post by Jean-François Piéronne
So if you want a Python 3 on Alpha it's not very difficult to build it.
And Python 3.10 will be provided on X86-64, I have build some libraries
without any problem, the only expected one will be libffi.
The Python 3.10 port have the same VMS extension as the 2.7 version.
This is very important for customers who have large Python applications
on VMS.
Currently, the only limitation is that Python 3.10 expect some modern
CRTL so need VSI VMS version with latest CRTL patches. But I know
someone which is investigating is it can be backported to 8.4 HP version.
JFP
I do not see why an account to see the vmsgenerations content is an issue.
I already explained that people who don't know it's there will never be
able to find it. It's also just another hoop to jump through when it's
<https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/public_access/public_access.html>
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
I find it more noteworthy that JFP has a Python 3.10 available for IA64
since some time back (this summer) while the VSI version is currently on
3.9 or 3.8.6.
JFP's work is exemplary but 3.10 is still in pre-release and really
should not be used in production.  VSI's release of 3.8.2 is pretty much
in line with what other vendors are doing, assuming they have even moved
to Python 3.
Ah, OK... :-)

I didn't know that.
Jean-François Piéronne
2020-11-23 17:24:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Le 23/11/2020 à 17:27, Craig A. Berry a écrit :
[snip]
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
I do not see why an account to see the vmsgenerations content is an issue.
I already explained that people who don't know it's there will never be
able to find it. It's also just another hoop to jump through when it's
<https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/public_access/public_access.html>
Interesting complain, probably no access to any sources like VSI is
doing make you much happy :-))

Also there is a link explore on the login page...

FYI there are about 40 registered users.

You have no problem with sourceforge wich add a lot of trakers, ad's so
why with gitlab (technically with heptapod) which is the most advanced
devop system...
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
I find it more noteworthy that JFP has a Python 3.10 available for IA64
since some time back (this summer) while the VSI version is currently on
3.9 or 3.8.6.
JFP's work is exemplary but 3.10 is still in pre-release and really
should not be used in production.  VSI's release of 3.8.2 is pretty much
in line with what other vendors are doing, assuming they have even moved
to Python 3.
I have tough, but clearly that was a dream, that VSI will look at what
customers are using... Instead they choose to work alone without any
interest for what customers need. Some have big Python application on
VMS, The VSI kit break a lot of thing and worse doesn't allow what they
use/need. And yes as I have ported Python on VMS for more 15 (20?) years
I know many of them...

I have explain why 3.10, for sure I can build a 3.8, probably 3.9 which
is the latest version. But as VSI doesn't provide access to their port I
doesn't like to do again a job already done, and I have had meeting with
some current Python users on VMS, some are still using 2.5, one 2.3...
So no hurry to go to 3.


JFP
--
L'absence de virus dans ce courrier électronique a été vérifiée par le logiciel antivirus Avast.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Chris Townley
2020-11-23 17:30:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jean-François Piéronne
[snip]
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
I do not see why an account to see the vmsgenerations content is an issue.
I already explained that people who don't know it's there will never be
able to find it. It's also just another hoop to jump through when it's
<https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/public_access/public_access.html>
Interesting complain, probably no access to any sources like VSI is
doing make you much happy :-))
Also there is a link explore on the login page...
FYI there are about 40 registered users.
You have no problem with sourceforge wich add a lot of trakers, ad's so
why with gitlab (technically with heptapod) which is the most advanced
devop system...
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
I find it more noteworthy that JFP has a Python 3.10 available for IA64
since some time back (this summer) while the VSI version is currently on
3.9 or 3.8.6.
JFP's work is exemplary but 3.10 is still in pre-release and really
should not be used in production.  VSI's release of 3.8.2 is pretty much
in line with what other vendors are doing, assuming they have even moved
to Python 3.
I have tough, but clearly that was a dream, that VSI will look at what
customers are using... Instead they choose to work alone without any
interest for what customers need. Some have big Python application on
VMS, The VSI kit break a lot of thing and worse doesn't allow what they
use/need. And yes as I have ported Python on VMS for more 15 (20?) years
I know many of them...
I have explain why 3.10, for sure I can build a 3.8, probably 3.9 which
is the latest version. But as VSI doesn't provide access to their port I
doesn't like to do again a job already done, and I have had meeting with
some current Python users on VMS, some are still using 2.5, one 2.3...
So no hurry to go to 3.
JFP
Are there any notes on compiling/installing your version?

Chris
Craig A. Berry
2020-11-23 19:21:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jean-François Piéronne
[snip]
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
I do not see why an account to see the vmsgenerations content is an issue.
I already explained that people who don't know it's there will never be
able to find it. It's also just another hoop to jump through when it's
<https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/public_access/public_access.html>
Interesting complain, probably no access to any sources like VSI is
doing make you much happy :-))
Also there is a link explore on the login page...
Thanks. I would never have found that if you hadn't mentioned it here.
It was off the bottom of my laptop screen and I had to scroll to get to it.

I do appreciate all that you have made available, but a landing page
that tells me where I've landed would be helpful if it's possible.
Post by Jean-François Piéronne
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
I find it more noteworthy that JFP has a Python 3.10 available for IA64
since some time back (this summer) while the VSI version is currently on
3.9 or 3.8.6.
JFP's work is exemplary but 3.10 is still in pre-release and really
should not be used in production.  VSI's release of 3.8.2 is pretty much
in line with what other vendors are doing, assuming they have even moved
to Python 3.
I have tough, but clearly that was a dream, that VSI will look at what
customers are using... Instead they choose to work alone without any
interest for what customers need. Some have big Python application on
VMS, The VSI kit break a lot of thing and worse doesn't allow what they
use/need. And yes as I have ported Python on VMS for more 15 (20?) years
I know many of them...
That's disappointing. I have not looked at the VSI kit and was hoping
they would have simply backported your changes to a currently-supported
release and produced a signed kit for those who have a "must be
supported by the vendor" requirement.
Post by Jean-François Piéronne
I have explain why 3.10, for sure I can build a 3.8, probably 3.9 which
is the latest version. But as VSI doesn't provide access to their port I
doesn't like to do again a job already done, and I have had meeting with
some current Python users on VMS, some are still using 2.5, one 2.3...
So no hurry to go to 3.
Tracking the development stream is the right thing to do when porting
open source. I don't know how they branch their release streams, but if
3.9.0 has more in common with 3.10 than with 3.8.x then it might not be
too hard to get 3.9.x working. But, I agree, it's not worth it unless
someone has a specific need for it.
Jean-François Piéronne
2020-11-23 22:07:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jean-François Piéronne
[snip]
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
I do not see why an account to see the vmsgenerations content is an issue.
I already explained that people who don't know it's there will never be
able to find it. It's also just another hoop to jump through when it's
<https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/public_access/public_access.html>
Interesting complain, probably no access to any sources like VSI is
doing make you much happy :-))
Also there is a link explore on the login page...
Thanks.  I would never have found that if you hadn't mentioned it here.
It was off the bottom of my laptop screen and I had to scroll to get to it.
Don't worry, I haven't, also, seen during a long time :-)
I do appreciate all that you have made available, but a landing page
that tells me where I've landed would be helpful if it's possible.
Thanks, I will take a look if it is doable to have a better login page.
[snip]
Post by Jean-François Piéronne
I have tough, but clearly that was a dream, that VSI will look at what
customers are using... Instead they choose to work alone without any
interest for what customers need. Some have big Python application on
VMS, The VSI kit break a lot of thing and worse doesn't allow what they
use/need. And yes as I have ported Python on VMS for more 15 (20?) years
I know many of them...
That's disappointing.  I have not looked at the VSI kit and was hoping
they would have simply backported your changes to a currently-supported
release and produced a signed kit for those who have a "must be
supported by the vendor" requirement.
Agree, disappointing for most the current Python users, as I have
previously mentioned there are some with fairly big applications.
Post by Jean-François Piéronne
I have explain why 3.10, for sure I can build a 3.8, probably 3.9 which
is the latest version. But as VSI doesn't provide access to their port I
doesn't like to do again a job already done, and I have had meeting with
some current Python users on VMS, some are still using 2.5, one 2.3...
So no hurry to go to 3.
Tracking the development stream is the right thing to do when porting
open source.  I don't know how they branch their release streams, but if
3.9.0 has more in common with 3.10 than with 3.8.x then it might not be
too hard to get 3.9.x working.  But, I agree, it's not worth it unless
someone has a specific need for it.
Yes, I have a branch default-vms for my change and I regularly do a
merge with the default branch (the official development branch), most a
the time just done in a few minutes (seconds) using TortoiseHg, and when
there are merge conflict I use meld to graphically resolve the conflict.

And I expect, during the forthcoming weeks, to enable a CI (continuous
integration) configuration.


JF
--
L'absence de virus dans ce courrier électronique a été vérifiée par le logiciel antivirus Avast.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Arne Vajhøj
2020-11-24 00:12:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jean-François Piéronne
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
I find it more noteworthy that JFP has a Python 3.10 available for IA64
since some time back (this summer) while the VSI version is currently on
3.9 or 3.8.6.
JFP's work is exemplary but 3.10 is still in pre-release and really
should not be used in production.  VSI's release of 3.8.2 is pretty much
in line with what other vendors are doing, assuming they have even moved
to Python 3.
I have tough, but clearly that was a dream, that VSI will look at what
customers are using... Instead they choose to work alone without any
interest for what customers need. Some have big Python application on
VMS, The VSI kit break a lot of thing and worse doesn't allow what they
use/need. And yes as I have ported Python on VMS for more 15 (20?) years
I know many of them...
I have explain why 3.10, for sure I can build a 3.8, probably 3.9 which
is the latest version. But as VSI doesn't provide access to their port I
doesn't like to do again a job already done,
I think it is natural and common for an open source product to
have both an open source latest and greatest version and a
very stable supported by the OS vendor version.

But the two being independent is not good. Sources should be shared.

I am not familiar with Python development practice, but ideally
VMS changes should go into standard Python and everybody working
on them whether VSI or volunteers should push their updates
to the master tree. And everybody can make a build producing the
same Python. Only difference being the different installer
and the VSI version being officially supported.

Same applies to the modules. They should work with both an
open source latest and greatest build and with the VSI build
(assuming they are supported on the Python version of the
VSI build).

And even though I see the benefits of your distribution approach of
bundling Python with a bunch of modules, then I think the
right way to move forward is to get VMS Python users to
use pip (and all the modules being available via pip).
Post by Jean-François Piéronne
and I have had meeting with
some current Python users on VMS, some are still using 2.5, one 2.3...
So no hurry to go to 3.
I think we should suggest they do hurry.

Long term either one plan on upgrading or one plan on migrating off.

It is better if people plan on upgrading their VMS systems than they
plan on migrating off their VMS systems.

Arne

John H. Reinhardt
2020-11-23 18:16:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
I find it more noteworthy that JFP has a Python 3.10 available for IA64
since some time back (this summer) while the VSI version is currently on
3.9 or 3.8.6.
JFP's work is exemplary but 3.10 is still in pre-release and really
should not be used in production.  VSI's release of 3.8.2 is pretty much
in line with what other vendors are doing, assuming they have even moved
to Python 3.
To further elaborate, here is the actual and expected release schedule for Python V3.10.0. Note that a BETA release isn't expected until May 2021 and a final until October 2021. Si it seems reasonable that, with many other things to do, VSI is not putting public effort into a V3.10 release yet.

<https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0619/>

3.10 development begins: Monday, 2020-05-18
3.10.0 alpha 1: Monday, 2020-10-05

Expected:

3.10.0 alpha 2: Monday, 2020-11-02
3.10.0 alpha 3: Monday, 2020-12-07
3.10.0 alpha 4: Monday, 2021-01-04
3.10.0 alpha 5: Monday, 2021-02-01
3.10.0 alpha 6: Monday, 2021-03-01
3.10.0 alpha 7: Monday, 2021-04-05
3.10.0 beta 1: Monday, 2021-05-03 (No new features beyond this point.)
3.10.0 beta 2: Tuesday, 2021-05-25
3.10.0 beta 3: Thursday, 2021-06-17
3.10.0 beta 4: Saturday, 2021-07-10
3.10.0 candidate 1: Monday, 2021-08-02
3.10.0 candidate 2: Monday, 2021-09-06 (if necessary)
3.10.0 final: Monday, 2021-10-04
--
John H. Reinhardt
Jean-François Piéronne
2020-11-23 16:15:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Jean-François Piéronne
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Stephen Hoffman
VSI has announced a recent Python port for OpenVMS. (Python 3.9 and
3.8.6 are the most current.)
https://twitter.com/VMSSoftware/status/1329794043556098051
As for the new or new-to-me OpenVMS logo shown, there's a /fin joke
here somewhere, I just know it.
  From first look this is I64 only?
Is this the future of Alpha here?
Um, the future of Alpha has been pretty clear since it was discontinued
a couple of decades ago. VSI does still produce Alpha kits for many (but
not all) of its open source ports, though often shortly after the
Itanium kits appear.
In the particular case of Python 3.x, however, I'm not sure if anyone
has yet ported the requisite libffi library to Alpha.  Last I heard,
doing so required knowledge of Alpha assembler, DWARF, Alpha function
signature details, and the OpenVMS calling standard.  Possibly other
things I'm forgetting.  People with all the necessary skills probably
have other things to do. Have you opened a ticket with VSI to ask for
support?
When we do the port, Philippe Vouters and I, of libffi to OpenVMS we
(mostly Philippe) do the port for Alpha and I64.
<https://vmsfree.ouvaton.org/freen/index.php?s=libffi>
Post by Jean-François Piéronne
In fact, we do the port for Python.
So you can build Python 3 on Alpha without any problem.
A few months ago I have asked if anyone is interested having a Python
3.10 on Alpha, no replies, as all customers who use Python on OpenVMS
are on I64, I only ld images for I64.
All the sources, Python 3.10 and libffi and others are on
https://foss.vmsgenerations.org/
Which points to a GitLab sign-in page.  Apparently one has to have an
account to see anything there.  Which also means nothing there will turn
up in a web search because the search engines won't be able to see
anything behind the authentication wall.
There is a link at the bottom of the page:

https://foss.vmsgenerations.org/explore


You don't need a account except for a few projects, like the zabbix
agent or the tool to do various security control of an OpenVMS system.

JFP
--
L'absence de virus dans ce courrier électronique a été vérifiée par le logiciel antivirus Avast.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
MG
2020-11-22 21:10:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Stephen Hoffman
VSI has announced a recent Python port for OpenVMS. (Python 3.9 and
3.8.6 are the most current.)
https://twitter.com/VMSSoftware/status/1329794043556098051
As for the new or new-to-me OpenVMS logo shown, there's a /fin joke here
somewhere, I just know it.
I like it, subtle and stylish.

- MG
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