Discussion:
VAX VMS 5.4 on Microvax 2
(too old to reply)
blockhouse007
2021-09-01 13:17:09 UTC
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Ok Ive managed to get an RD53 on an RQDX3 controller fired up on the Microvax 2.

The problem I have is I created a STABACKIT on a TK70 from my working MV3800 and a full system backup.sav save set. (VMS 5.4)

I can boot the STABACKIT TK70 on my MV2 but on restoring the save set the RD53 becomes 'disk is full' as it is obviously too small in capacity compared to the RF72 on the MV3800.

Do you know what directories are actually required to get a working copy of VMS 5.4 on my MV2, as against me doing a full backup/image? Can I include /exclude or is it unlikely to even fit? I'm sure VMS 5.4 was on my old disk that trashed.
Any advice much appreciated.
abrsvc
2021-09-01 14:37:12 UTC
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Post by blockhouse007
Ok Ive managed to get an RD53 on an RQDX3 controller fired up on the Microvax 2.
The problem I have is I created a STABACKIT on a TK70 from my working MV3800 and a full system backup.sav save set. (VMS 5.4)
I can boot the STABACKIT TK70 on my MV2 but on restoring the save set the RD53 becomes 'disk is full' as it is obviously too small in capacity compared to the RF72 on the MV3800.
Do you know what directories are actually required to get a working copy of VMS 5.4 on my MV2, as against me doing a full backup/image? Can I include /exclude or is it unlikely to even fit? I'm sure VMS 5.4 was on my old disk that trashed.
Any advice much appreciated.
Can you do a backup/list on the saveset on the TK70 drive to get the saved disk info? Perhaps initializing the disk prior to the restore and doing a backup/noinit would work. If the cluster_size of the "saved" disk was larger than the RD53, there may be some wasted space. Other than that, you may need to install a fresh V5.4.

Dan
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2021-09-01 14:47:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by blockhouse007
Ok Ive managed to get an RD53 on an RQDX3 controller fired up on the Microvax 2.
The problem I have is I created a STABACKIT on a TK70 from my working MV3800 and a full system backup.sav save set. (VMS 5.4)
I can boot the STABACKIT TK70 on my MV2 but on restoring the save set the RD53 becomes 'disk is full' as it is obviously too small in capacity compared to the RF72 on the MV3800.
Do you know what directories are actually required to get a working copy of VMS 5.4 on my MV2, as against me doing a full backup/image? Can I include /exclude or is it unlikely to even fit? I'm sure VMS 5.4 was on my old disk that trashed.
Any advice much appreciated.
Have you made sure to purge such things as old LOG filse and other
stuff that might have filled up your 3800 system disk? If that has
been running for some, I guess it could have grown from the initial
installation. If you find any later installations you might be able
/exclude those. But I'd start with looking at the 3800 system disk
and try to see what it actually contains...

Maybe you can exclude anything not needed at restore-time...
Stephen Hoffman
2021-09-01 14:58:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by blockhouse007
Any advice much appreciated.
In no particular order...

Welcome to ~1986.

RD53 was seriously tight with MicroVMS V4.x, much less with something
as "new" as V5.

An RD53 was somewhere between constrained and overloaded for one
development user on a VAXstation II.

~Everybody ditched those RD53s in droves for the
capacious-in-comparison RD54, when those became available.

RF72 is positively cavernous for that era, and you'd need a KFQSA to
get there from a MicroVAX II.

(And I don't recall the minimum VAX/VMS or MicroVMS version for KFQSA, either.)

I don't recall when RD53 went unsupported, but it was a very long time ago.

The base VAX/VMS V5.x install is capable of performing a subset
install, and split into parts.

Install on an emulator, hack OpenVMS down to RD53 size, then build your
own installer. You'll learn much about VAX/VMS and old hardware. And a
more visceral understanding of why a number of now-problematic
architectural decisions were made back then.

Smallest I've gotten bootable V3 with enough of DECnet for a
point-to-point link was onto an RL02, and that took a couple of days'
effort for testing which pieces were needed and which were not.

Or scrounge a contemporary-to-RD53 V4.* (remastered) version of
MicroVMS on TK50, or scrounge a VAX/VMS V5.* installer (remastered)
kit, and install from that.

VAX/VMS and now OpenVMS is far too fond of copying whole disk
installations around, rather than migrating (just) the contents to a
new environment. But it was a different era.

STABACKIT.COM is the minimum bootable environment. Run that, and you'll
be able to boot standalone BACKUP. (Boring.)

VMSKITBLD.COM might allow you to get a kit created. That (usually) can
build an installer kit, though it was too often good for a tussle with
TK kit creation. Kits creation on disks usually worked, but you'd need
a second disk on that MicroVAX II.

If you want to experiment with STABACKIT (boring as it is) or a
VMSKITBLD-built environment, build and image that over.

The MicroVMS V4 and VAX/VMS V4 and VAX/VMS V5 kits are split into parts
to allow them to fit into smaller environments.

if you want to learn more about the era and some of its issues and the
limits of some of the tools, check the comp.os.vms archives from the
1980s and 1990s.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
gah4
2021-09-01 22:55:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by blockhouse007
Any advice much appreciated.
In no particular order...
Welcome to ~1986.
I haven't thought about this recently, maybe since 1986.

Can you run these diskless off a server?

What kind of server do you need?
Stephen Hoffman
2021-09-02 03:18:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by gah4
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by blockhouse007
Any advice much appreciated.
In no particular order...
Welcome to ~1986.
I haven't thought about this recently, maybe since 1986.
Can you run these diskless off a server?
What kind of server do you need?
That's called a VAXcluster with a diskless satellite, or a VAXcluster
with a satellite with local page and/or swapfile.

The other server is running MicroVMS or VAX/VMS, depending on the version.

Operating a cluster satellite via a 10 MbE link is... relaxing.

Operating a diskless satellite with remote page and swap configured...
more relaxing.

Operating anything with a screaming DEQNA could cause a whole network
segment to become... infinitely relaxed.

V4 had fairly limited Local Area VAXcluster (LAVc) support, while V5
opened up the available cluster configurations somewhat; with mixed
VAXcluster nterconnects permitted.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
Simon Clubley
2021-09-01 18:07:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by blockhouse007
Ok Ive managed to get an RD53 on an RQDX3 controller fired up on the Microvax 2.
The problem I have is I created a STABACKIT on a TK70 from my working MV3800 and a full system backup.sav save set. (VMS 5.4)
I can boot the STABACKIT TK70 on my MV2 but on restoring the save set the RD53 becomes 'disk is full' as it is obviously too small in capacity compared to the RF72 on the MV3800.
Do you know what directories are actually required to get a working copy of VMS 5.4 on my MV2, as against me doing a full backup/image? Can I include /exclude or is it unlikely to even fit? I'm sure VMS 5.4 was on my old disk that trashed.
Any advice much appreciated.
You need to do a backup/image to get a valid bootable system disk on
your target system; you cannot just copy over some specific directories.

That means you need to reduce the number of files on the source
system before creating the saveset.

Ideas to try before creating your saveset (completely untested, use
at your own risk, etc):

See if you can remove the sys$help and sys$examples contents, after
making multiple verified backups of them if you need to restore them.

Do a source_disk:[*...]*.*;-1 to check for multiple versions of files.

Did that version of VMS have any uninstall capabilities ?
If so, try removing any installed layered products with an uninstaller
and then install them again.

Try a source_disk:[*...]*.*/select=siz=min=1000 and see if you can
get rid of any of the files that show up.

How big are the swap and paging files on the source disk ?
They should be marked as nobackup, but they will be recreated on
the restore and hence take up space on the target disk.

Can you reduce the size of them on the source disk by using autogen ?

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Dave Froble
2021-09-01 21:18:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by blockhouse007
Ok Ive managed to get an RD53 on an RQDX3 controller fired up on the Microvax 2.
The problem I have is I created a STABACKIT on a TK70 from my working MV3800 and a full system backup.sav save set. (VMS 5.4)
I can boot the STABACKIT TK70 on my MV2 but on restoring the save set the RD53 becomes 'disk is full' as it is obviously too small in capacity compared to the RF72 on the MV3800.
Do you know what directories are actually required to get a working copy of VMS 5.4 on my MV2, as against me doing a full backup/image? Can I include /exclude or is it unlikely to even fit? I'm sure VMS 5.4 was on my old disk that trashed.
Any advice much appreciated.
You need to do a backup/image to get a valid bootable system disk on
your target system; you cannot just copy over some specific directories.
That means you need to reduce the number of files on the source
system before creating the saveset.
Ideas to try before creating your saveset (completely untested, use
See if you can remove the sys$help and sys$examples contents, after
making multiple verified backups of them if you need to restore them.
Do a source_disk:[*...]*.*;-1 to check for multiple versions of files.
Did that version of VMS have any uninstall capabilities ?
If so, try removing any installed layered products with an uninstaller
and then install them again.
Try a source_disk:[*...]*.*/select=siz=min=1000 and see if you can
get rid of any of the files that show up.
How big are the swap and paging files on the source disk ?
They should be marked as nobackup, but they will be recreated on
the restore and hence take up space on the target disk.
Can you reduce the size of them on the source disk by using autogen ?
Simon.
The problems can be from any source. If the clustersize is large, say
73, no way the files will fit. The clustersize on the target should be
small, I'd use 1, and the files being installed should not be extended
to a previous clustersize. Contiguous files on the source will be helpful.

I have faint memories of copying files with truncation. Something I
hope to never have to do again.

But that will most likely be required in this case.

On the source disk, truncate all files to their minimum size.
Then make the backup image.
Init the target disk, then when restoring, use the /NOINIT option on the
BACKUP command.

Not sure if the OP has any method to init the target disk.

Oh, wait, the OP asked for advice. My advice, scrap the MVII.
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Scott Dorsey
2021-09-01 23:48:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by blockhouse007
Ok Ive managed to get an RD53 on an RQDX3 controller fired up on the Microvax 2.
The problem I have is I created a STABACKIT on a TK70 from my working MV3800 and a full system backup.sav save set. (VMS 5.4)
I can boot the STABACKIT TK70 on my MV2 but on restoring the save set the RD53 becomes 'disk is full' as it is obviously too small in capacity compared to the RF72 on the MV3800.
Yes, that's right. I do not think it is possible to get anything approaching
a functioning 5.4 system on an RD53. Even an RD54 is marginal.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Steven Schweda
2021-09-02 03:04:21 UTC
Permalink
[...] I do not think it is possible to get anything approaching
a functioning 5.4 system on an RD53. [...]
Define "functioning". "approaching" from which side?

According to "VMS Operating System, Version 5.4 SPD 25.01.34",

The disk block size for the VMS Operating System, Version 5.4,
after installation is approximately 82,000 blocks. This fig-
ure includes 5,600 blocks for page and swap files. Most systems
will require larger page and swap files. This figure also in-
cludes help library files which are in data-compressed format.
Most system managers choose to expand these files (for faster
access). The expansion requires approximately 8,500 additional
blocks.


To support full VMS, a system disk of greater than 100 MB is
recommended. When a smaller disk is used, additional tailoring
is required prior to installing some VMS options. This does not
include the dump file space. Refer to VMS Upgrade and Installa-
tion Procedures Manual for information on tailoring.

But, a 71MB RD53 (139264 blocks) would seem to be big enough for the
basic OS.
[...] Even an RD54 is marginal.
Define "marginal". It's been a while since it's seen power, but, as
I recall, my VAXstation 2000 ran V5.5-2 (and DECwindows, and a compiler
or two) on an RD54. It also had an external RD54 where a little actual
work could be done, too. With some special tailoring, one RD54 might
have been tolerable. (Or, as tolerable as anything on that slug.)
Dennis Boone
2021-09-02 02:14:29 UTC
Permalink
An option might be to obtain an MFM emulator
(https://www.pdp8online.com/mfm/mfm.shtml) and use it to emulate an
RD54.

De
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