Discussion:
VMS-IDE
(too old to reply)
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2021-02-10 23:59:10 UTC
Permalink
Hi.

I have been looking throught the VSI Wiki about VMS-IDE.

I have VS Code installed (and I have worked with many
differnt IDE's before and know Windows fairly well).

Now, I cannot follow the Wiki instruktions to get a simple
example VMS-IDE setup working. Has anyone (outside VSI)
managed to get a working VMS-IDE setup to work? And if so,
did you find the Wiki guides clear and easy to follow?

I cannot really describe where I get lost since I find the
Wiki to be a major mess without a clear line to follow.
Just a large bunch of links to different pages, but no
simple step by step list of the setup events to perform.

And besides, if you did get it to work, did you find that
it was worth the effort?

Regards, Jan-Erik.
Arne Vajhøj
2021-02-11 00:46:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
I have been looking throught the VSI Wiki about VMS-IDE.
I have VS Code installed (and I have worked with many
differnt IDE's before and know Windows fairly well).
Now, I cannot follow the Wiki instruktions to get a simple
example VMS-IDE setup working. Has anyone (outside VSI)
managed to get a working VMS-IDE setup to work? And if so,
did you find the Wiki guides clear and easy to follow?
I cannot really describe where I get lost since I find the
Wiki to be a major mess without a clear line to follow.
Just a large bunch of links to different pages, but no
simple step by step list of the setup events to perform.
And besides, if you did get it to work, did you find that
it was worth the effort?
I got it installed, but I could not get it working in
any useful way.

But that may not be so surprising given that I have
never been able to get VS Code to work as I want for
anything.

Somehow that IDE and me are just not compatible.

And that is not necessarily a VS Code problem. I
know a lot of people like it.

Arne
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2021-02-11 00:50:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
I have been looking throught the VSI Wiki about VMS-IDE.
I have VS Code installed (and I have worked with many
differnt IDE's before and know Windows fairly well).
Now, I cannot follow the Wiki instruktions to get a simple
example VMS-IDE setup working. Has anyone (outside VSI)
managed to get a working VMS-IDE setup to work? And if so,
did you find the Wiki guides clear and easy to follow?
I cannot really describe where I get lost since I find the
Wiki to be a major mess without a clear line to follow.
Just a large bunch of links to different pages, but no
simple step by step list of the setup events to perform.
And besides, if you did get it to work, did you find that
it was worth the effort?
I got it installed, but I could not get it working in
any useful way.
But that may not be so surprising given that I have
never been able to get VS Code to work as I want for
anything.
Somehow that IDE and me are just not compatible.
And that is not necessarily a VS Code problem. I
know a lot of people like it.
Arne
OK. Interesting with your opinions on VS Code *as such*, of course.
Did you find that you could follow the step in the VSI Wiki?
Or did you had any previous knowledge about VS Code?

I find the configuration confusing. Sometimes it seeems to be
a kind of config window, sometimes it looks like you are meant
to edit some JSON file...
Arne Vajhøj
2021-02-11 00:59:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
I have been looking throught the VSI Wiki about VMS-IDE.
I have VS Code installed (and I have worked with many
differnt IDE's before and know Windows fairly well).
Now, I cannot follow the Wiki instruktions to get a simple
example VMS-IDE setup working. Has anyone (outside VSI)
managed to get a working VMS-IDE setup to work? And if so,
did you find the Wiki guides clear and easy to follow?
I cannot really describe where I get lost since I find the
Wiki to be a major mess without a clear line to follow.
Just a large bunch of links to different pages, but no
simple step by step list of the setup events to perform.
And besides, if you did get it to work, did you find that
it was worth the effort?
I got it installed, but I could not get it working in
any useful way.
But that may not be so surprising given that I have
never been able to get VS Code to work as I want for
anything.
Somehow that IDE and me are just not compatible.
And that is not necessarily a VS Code problem. I
know a lot of people like it.
OK. Interesting with your opinions on VS Code *as such*, of course.
Did you find that you could follow the step in the VSI Wiki?
Or did you had any previous knowledge about VS Code?
I find the configuration confusing. Sometimes it seeems to be
a kind of config window, sometimes it looks like you are meant
to edit some JSON file...
Quite some time ago.

Most likely I just went to extensions search, entered
openvms (or maybe VSI) and then clicked install. That
is what I expect of a modern IDE.

Arne
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2021-02-11 08:06:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
I have been looking throught the VSI Wiki about VMS-IDE.
I have VS Code installed (and I have worked with many
differnt IDE's before and know Windows fairly well).
Now, I cannot follow the Wiki instruktions to get a simple
example VMS-IDE setup working. Has anyone (outside VSI)
managed to get a working VMS-IDE setup to work? And if so,
did you find the Wiki guides clear and easy to follow?
I cannot really describe where I get lost since I find the
Wiki to be a major mess without a clear line to follow.
Just a large bunch of links to different pages, but no
simple step by step list of the setup events to perform.
And besides, if you did get it to work, did you find that
it was worth the effort?
I got it installed, but I could not get it working in
any useful way.
But that may not be so surprising given that I have
never been able to get VS Code to work as I want for
anything.
Somehow that IDE and me are just not compatible.
And that is not necessarily a VS Code problem. I
know a lot of people like it.
OK. Interesting with your opinions on VS Code *as such*, of course.
Did you find that you could follow the step in the VSI Wiki?
Or did you had any previous knowledge about VS Code?
I find the configuration confusing. Sometimes it seeems to be
a kind of config window, sometimes it looks like you are meant
to edit some JSON file...
Quite some time ago.
Most likely I just went to extensions search, entered
openvms (or maybe VSI) and then clicked install. That
is what I expect of a modern IDE.
Arne
Of course! *That* is the easy bit... It is when you come to
setting up a "project" that I got lost.

But I might just take some more time and give it another try.
Arne Vajhøj
2021-02-11 16:28:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Arne Vajhøj
I got it installed, but I could not get it working in
any useful way.
But that may not be so surprising given that I have
never been able to get VS Code to work as I want for
anything.
Did you find that you could follow the step in the VSI Wiki?
Or did you had any previous knowledge about VS Code?
I find the configuration confusing. Sometimes it seeems to be
a kind of config window, sometimes it looks like you are meant
to edit some JSON file...
Quite some time ago.
Most likely I just went to extensions search, entered
openvms (or maybe VSI) and then clicked install. That
is what I expect of a modern IDE.
Of course! *That* is the easy bit... It is when you come to
setting up a "project" that I got lost.
I believe that I got lost in the settings and gave up.

Arne
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2021-02-11 16:30:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Arne Vajhøj
I got it installed, but I could not get it working in
any useful way.
But that may not be so surprising given that I have
never been able to get VS Code to work as I want for
anything.
Did you find that you could follow the step in the VSI Wiki?
Or did you had any previous knowledge about VS Code?
I find the configuration confusing. Sometimes it seeems to be
a kind of config window, sometimes it looks like you are meant
to edit some JSON file...
Quite some time ago.
Most likely I just went to extensions search, entered
openvms (or maybe VSI) and then clicked install. That
is what I expect of a modern IDE.
Of course! *That* is the easy bit... It is when you come to
setting up a "project" that I got lost.
I believe that I got lost in the settings and gave up.
Arne
So, everyone replying so far "got lost" in the setup process.
Now, it just can't be bad instructions, can it? :-)
Dave Froble
2021-02-11 16:42:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Arne Vajhøj
I got it installed, but I could not get it working in
any useful way.
But that may not be so surprising given that I have
never been able to get VS Code to work as I want for
anything.
Did you find that you could follow the step in the VSI Wiki?
Or did you had any previous knowledge about VS Code?
I find the configuration confusing. Sometimes it seeems to be
a kind of config window, sometimes it looks like you are meant
to edit some JSON file...
Quite some time ago.
Most likely I just went to extensions search, entered
openvms (or maybe VSI) and then clicked install. That
is what I expect of a modern IDE.
Of course! *That* is the easy bit... It is when you come to
setting up a "project" that I got lost.
I believe that I got lost in the settings and gave up.
Arne
So, everyone replying so far "got lost" in the setup process.
Now, it just can't be bad instructions, can it? :-)
The basic (sic) question I have is, how is something so hard to us
suppose to save one time and effort?

I took a look, because I didn't want to be "stoogy" and "set in my ways"
to the detriment of "a better way". The result was being very unimpressed.
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Rich Alderson
2021-02-11 19:48:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Arne Vajhøj
I got it installed, but I could not get it working in
any useful way.
But that may not be so surprising given that I have
never been able to get VS Code to work as I want for
anything.
Did you find that you could follow the step in the VSI Wiki?
Or did you had any previous knowledge about VS Code?
I find the configuration confusing. Sometimes it seeems to be
a kind of config window, sometimes it looks like you are meant
to edit some JSON file...
Quite some time ago.
Most likely I just went to extensions search, entered
openvms (or maybe VSI) and then clicked install. That
is what I expect of a modern IDE.
Of course! *That* is the easy bit... It is when you come to
setting up a "project" that I got lost.
I believe that I got lost in the settings and gave up.
Arne
So, everyone replying so far "got lost" in the setup process.
Now, it just can't be bad instructions, can it? :-)
The basic (sic) question I have is, how is something so hard to us
suppose to save one time and effort?
I took a look, because I didn't want to be "stoogy" and "set in my ways"
to the detriment of "a better way". The result was being very unimpressed.
It's not just Visual Studio. I have yet to set up a new project (i.e., not
example code) in Xcode correctly, although all the nice examples work just
fine.
--
Rich Alderson ***@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen
Arne Vajhøj
2021-02-12 00:23:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Alderson
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Of course! *That* is the easy bit... It is when you come to
setting up a "project" that I got lost.
I believe that I got lost in the settings and gave up.
So, everyone replying so far "got lost" in the setup process.
Now, it just can't be bad instructions, can it? :-)
The basic (sic) question I have is, how is something so hard to us
suppose to save one time and effort?
I took a look, because I didn't want to be "stoogy" and "set in my ways"
to the detriment of "a better way". The result was being very unimpressed.
It's not just Visual Studio.
VS Code

VS and VS Code only share name.

VS is a C# WPF application with some C++.

VS Code is an Electron application (HTML5 aka JavaScript, running in
embedded Chromium browser using node.js as embedded server).
Post by Rich Alderson
I have yet to set up a new project (i.e., not
example code) in Xcode correctly, although all the nice examples work just
fine.
It can be done.

I never have problems creating Java projects in Eclipse or
C# projects in VS.

The latter may be more indicative as I have too much
experience creating Java projects in Eclipse to be a good
metric for usability.

Arne
hb
2021-02-12 08:49:51 UTC
Permalink
I never have problems creating Java projects in Eclipse or ...
Me too. Setting up Eclipse C/C++ (aka CDT) projects to compile VMS C
sources is more difficult, but it can be done. Works for me, I use it
all the time.
Arne Vajhøj
2021-02-12 14:36:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by hb
I never have problems creating Java projects in Eclipse or ...
Me too. Setting up Eclipse C/C++ (aka CDT) projects to compile VMS C
sources is more difficult, but it can be done. Works for me, I use it
all the time.
There are a couple of extra complications with C/C++ compared
to Java:
* setting up the compiler
* choosing between auto and explicit makefile

And if VMS C then I guess there is a third about the integration
with VMS.

But maybe you should post your notes on the VMS integration.

Eclipse supports a lot of languages so VMS integration would be
nice.

Arne
Bill Gunshannon
2021-02-12 19:59:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by hb
I never have problems creating Java projects in Eclipse or ...
Me too. Setting up Eclipse C/C++ (aka CDT) projects to compile VMS C
sources is more difficult, but it can be done. Works for me, I use it
all the time.
There are a couple of extra complications with C/C++ compared
* setting up the compiler
* choosing between auto and explicit makefile
And if VMS C then I guess there is a third about the integration
with VMS.
But maybe you should post your notes on the VMS integration.
Eclipse supports a lot of languages so VMS integration would be
nice.
How would you run Eclipse on VMS without a GUI?

bill
Arne Vajhøj
2021-02-12 20:06:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by hb
I never have problems creating Java projects in Eclipse or ...
Me too. Setting up Eclipse C/C++ (aka CDT) projects to compile VMS C
sources is more difficult, but it can be done. Works for me, I use it
all the time.
There are a couple of extra complications with C/C++ compared
* setting up the compiler
* choosing between auto and explicit makefile
And if VMS C then I guess there is a third about the integration
with VMS.
But maybe you should post your notes on the VMS integration.
Eclipse supports a lot of languages so VMS integration would be
nice.
How would you run Eclipse on VMS without a GUI?
You won't.

This is IDE on PC accessing VMS system remotely.

Both Eclipse and VS Code.

Arne
Arne Vajhøj
2021-02-12 20:10:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by hb
I never have problems creating Java projects in Eclipse or ...
Me too. Setting up Eclipse C/C++ (aka CDT) projects to compile VMS C
sources is more difficult, but it can be done. Works for me, I use it
all the time.
There are a couple of extra complications with C/C++ compared
* setting up the compiler
* choosing between auto and explicit makefile
And if VMS C then I guess there is a third about the integration
with VMS.
But maybe you should post your notes on the VMS integration.
Eclipse supports a lot of languages so VMS integration would be
nice.
How would you run Eclipse on VMS without a GUI?
You won't.
This is IDE on PC accessing VMS system remotely.
Both Eclipse and VS Code.
Eclipse uses SWT which is not available on VMS.

VS Code uses Chromium which is not available on VMS.

Arne
hb
2021-02-12 20:54:41 UTC
Permalink
The notes are on the web. I haven't reviewed them since I wrote the in
2016, so they may need some update. At least the mentioned Eclipse
version is out of date. Google should find the notes:
http://www.vms2linux.de/vms-c-eclipse.html.
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by hb
I never have problems creating Java projects in Eclipse or ...
Me too. Setting up Eclipse C/C++ (aka CDT) projects to compile VMS C
sources is more difficult, but it can be done. Works for me, I use it
all the time.
There are a couple of extra complications with C/C++ compared
* setting up the compiler
* choosing between auto and explicit makefile
And if VMS C then I guess there is a third about the integration
with VMS.
But maybe you should post your notes on the VMS integration.
Eclipse supports a lot of languages so VMS integration would be
nice.
Arne
Dave Froble
2021-02-11 05:19:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
I have been looking throught the VSI Wiki about VMS-IDE.
I have VS Code installed (and I have worked with many
differnt IDE's before and know Windows fairly well).
Now, I cannot follow the Wiki instruktions to get a simple
example VMS-IDE setup working. Has anyone (outside VSI)
managed to get a working VMS-IDE setup to work? And if so,
did you find the Wiki guides clear and easy to follow?
I cannot really describe where I get lost since I find the
Wiki to be a major mess without a clear line to follow.
Just a large bunch of links to different pages, but no
simple step by step list of the setup events to perform.
And besides, if you did get it to work, did you find that
it was worth the effort?
I got it installed, but I could not get it working in
any useful way.
But that may not be so surprising given that I have
never been able to get VS Code to work as I want for
anything.
Somehow that IDE and me are just not compatible.
And that is not necessarily a VS Code problem. I
know a lot of people like it.
Arne
I did take a look at it a while back. Yes, it seemed to work, but, it
was not for me. I'm going to assume that there will be some who like
it, and some who don't.

I've got a lot of habits I've developed over the last many years. In
some ways, the IDE forced me to do some things in other ways, and, I
didn't like that. Some minor, some major.

When I first looked at VB, it was pretty much the same. VB had it's own
way to format code, and it was not the way I format code. So, what's
the real problem? When I go back to read code, it is more difficult for
me, because it is not what I expect. Another thing that sounded good,
wasn't. The automatic "compiling" of the code to insure it is correct.
But, too often it got involved before I was ready for it to do so, and
that was very irritating.

For some, conforming to something new will be Ok. For others, it will
decrease their effectiveness.

Even a minor thing such as "white space". Is it spaces? Is it tabs?
Is it both? Do you care?

I just figure that my habits are just another IDE (since we have to have
new names for old things) that suits me just fine. I know how I want
code to read, I know how I want the comments, I know where I want code,
object modules, libraries, executeables, and such to be located.

I don't need anything to slow me down, old age already has that well in
hand.
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Simon Clubley
2021-02-11 13:07:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Froble
Even a minor thing such as "white space". Is it spaces? Is it tabs?
Is it both? Do you care?
Tabs always.

Smaller file sizes and greater options for setting the tab width in
whatever editor you want to use if you don't like the default tab
size of 8 characters.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2021-02-11 13:15:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Dave Froble
Even a minor thing such as "white space". Is it spaces? Is it tabs?
Is it both? Do you care?
Tabs always.
Smaller file sizes and greater options for setting the tab width in
whatever editor you want to use if you don't like the default tab
size of 8 characters.
Simon.
Hm... Simon, you replied to a post by Dave, but I cannot see the
post from Dave myself. I guess your quote above was just part of it.
Simon Clubley
2021-02-11 13:22:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Dave Froble
Even a minor thing such as "white space". Is it spaces? Is it tabs?
Is it both? Do you care?
Tabs always.
Smaller file sizes and greater options for setting the tab width in
whatever editor you want to use if you don't like the default tab
size of 8 characters.
Hm... Simon, you replied to a post by Dave, but I cannot see the
post from Dave myself. I guess your quote above was just part of it.
Yes it was. It looks like you are using Eternal September from your
headers. I also use Eternal September and have just looked again and
can still see David's original message.

Have you got some filtering switched on ?

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2021-02-11 13:59:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Dave Froble
Even a minor thing such as "white space". Is it spaces? Is it tabs?
Is it both? Do you care?
Tabs always.
Smaller file sizes and greater options for setting the tab width in
whatever editor you want to use if you don't like the default tab
size of 8 characters.
Hm... Simon, you replied to a post by Dave, but I cannot see the
post from Dave myself. I guess your quote above was just part of it.
Yes it was. It looks like you are using Eternal September from your
headers. I also use Eternal September and have just looked again and
can still see David's original message.
Have you got some filtering switched on ?
Simon.
No, I have done nothing out of the default setup using Thunderbird
(and eternal-september, as you noticed).
Arne Vajhøj
2021-02-11 14:43:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Dave Froble
Even a minor thing such as "white space". Is it spaces? Is it tabs?
Is it both? Do you care?
Tabs always.
Spaces.

:-)
Post by Simon Clubley
Smaller file sizes and greater options for setting the tab width in
whatever editor you want to use if you don't like the default tab
size of 8 characters.
I do not care about file size.

And the different tab setting only works if it is 100% tabs - if
it is a mix of tabs and spaces, then it becomes a big mess when
tab setting is changed. And it is rather difficult to avoid some spaces.

Arne
John
2021-02-11 16:16:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
Even a minor thing such as "white space". Is it spaces? Is it tabs?
Is it both? Do you care?
Tabs always.
Spaces.
:-)
Absolutely. Always set tabs to 4 spaces, first task with any new full
screen editor. Then, it looks the same format what ever is done with
it...
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
Smaller file sizes and greater options for setting the tab width in
whatever editor you want to use if you don't like the default tab
size of 8 characters.
I do not care about file size.
And the different tab setting only works if it is 100% tabs - if
it is a mix of tabs and spaces, then it becomes a big mess when
tab setting is changed. And it is rather difficult to avoid some spaces.
Arne
Simon Clubley
2021-02-11 18:15:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
Smaller file sizes and greater options for setting the tab width in
whatever editor you want to use if you don't like the default tab
size of 8 characters.
I do not care about file size.
That's a very modern attitude unfortunately.
Post by Arne Vajhøj
And the different tab setting only works if it is 100% tabs - if
it is a mix of tabs and spaces, then it becomes a big mess when
tab setting is changed. And it is rather difficult to avoid some spaces.
Emacs has the tabify command. Just make sure you don't convert anything
within the source code that should be left as it is.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2021-02-11 21:47:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
Smaller file sizes and greater options for setting the tab width in
whatever editor you want to use if you don't like the default tab
size of 8 characters.
I do not care about file size.
That's a very modern attitude unfortunately.
Sure, who don't want to be modern? And is it a problem?
A few bytes extra per line of source code when large data centers
are filled with 1000's of hours with movie clips every day.
Simon Clubley
2021-02-12 13:18:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
Smaller file sizes and greater options for setting the tab width in
whatever editor you want to use if you don't like the default tab
size of 8 characters.
I do not care about file size.
That's a very modern attitude unfortunately.
Sure, who don't want to be modern? And is it a problem?
I like to be modern. I also like to efficient when possible.
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
A few bytes extra per line of source code when large data centers
are filled with 1000's of hours with movie clips every day.
A few extra bytes per line does not make all that much difference.

Unfortunately, that same attitude is increasingly commonplace in
places where it does make a difference.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2021-02-12 13:35:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
Smaller file sizes and greater options for setting the tab width in
whatever editor you want to use if you don't like the default tab
size of 8 characters.
I do not care about file size.
That's a very modern attitude unfortunately.
Sure, who don't want to be modern? And is it a problem?
I like to be modern. I also like to efficient when possible.
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
A few bytes extra per line of source code when large data centers
are filled with 1000's of hours with movie clips every day.
A few extra bytes per line does not make all that much difference.
Unfortunately, that same attitude is increasingly commonplace in
places where it does make a difference.
Simon.
So, what does those other places has to do with the VMS-IDE?
And I would not say that it is an "attitude"...
Simon Clubley
2021-02-12 13:37:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
Smaller file sizes and greater options for setting the tab width in
whatever editor you want to use if you don't like the default tab
size of 8 characters.
I do not care about file size.
That's a very modern attitude unfortunately.
Sure, who don't want to be modern? And is it a problem?
I like to be modern. I also like to efficient when possible.
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
A few bytes extra per line of source code when large data centers
are filled with 1000's of hours with movie clips every day.
A few extra bytes per line does not make all that much difference.
Unfortunately, that same attitude is increasingly commonplace in
places where it does make a difference.
Simon.
So, what does those other places has to do with the VMS-IDE?
I was commenting about the attitude in general.
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
And I would not say that it is an "attitude"...
Oh, I would. Have you seen some of the bloated stuff that is being
released these days ?

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Arne Vajhøj
2021-02-12 14:30:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
And I would not say that it is an "attitude"...
Oh, I would. Have you seen some of the bloated stuff that is being
released these days ?
There are a lot of very bloated stuff.

But one does not avoid bloated software by focusing on irrelevant
stuff like size of source files due to spaces vs tabs.

One does that by focusing on what matters.

Arne
Arne Vajhøj
2021-02-12 14:33:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
And I would not say that it is an "attitude"...
Oh, I would. Have you seen some of the bloated stuff that is being
released these days ?
There are a lot of very bloated stuff.
Which may be why VS Code is so popular - it actually has a
relative modest footprint.

VS:

<quote>
Hardware

1.8 GHz or faster processor. Quad-core or better recommended
2 GB of RAM; 8 GB of RAM recommended (2.5 GB minimum if running on
a virtual machine)
Hard disk space: Minimum of 800MB up to 210 GB of available space,
depending on features installed; typical installations require 20-50 GB
of free space.
Hard disk speed: to improve performance, install Windows and Visual
Studio on a solid state drive (SSD).
Video card that supports a minimum display resolution of 720p (1280
by 720); Visual Studio will work best at a resolution of WXGA (1366 by
768) or higher.
</quote>

VS Code:

<quote>
Hardware

Visual Studio Code is a small download (< 100 MB) and has a disk
footprint of 200 MB. VS Code is lightweight and should easily run on
today's hardware.

We recommend:

1.6 GHz or faster processor
1 GB of RAM
</quote>

Arne
Arne Vajhøj
2021-02-12 14:17:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
Smaller file sizes and greater options for setting the tab width in
whatever editor you want to use if you don't like the default tab
size of 8 characters.
I do not care about file size.
That's a very modern attitude unfortunately.
Sure, who don't want to be modern? And is it a problem?
I like to be modern. I also like to efficient when possible.
10 MLOC and 16 spaces -> 2 tabs saves 140 MB.

Which is white noise on todays hard drives.
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
A few bytes extra per line of source code when large data centers
are filled with 1000's of hours with movie clips every day.
A few extra bytes per line does not make all that much difference.
Exactly.
Post by Simon Clubley
Unfortunately, that same attitude is increasingly commonplace in
places where it does make a difference.
It is that attitude that enables doing something where it does make
a difference.

If one tries to optimize everything then one end up focusing too
little on what matters.

Arne
Dave Froble
2021-02-11 15:40:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Dave Froble
Even a minor thing such as "white space". Is it spaces? Is it tabs?
Is it both? Do you care?
Tabs always.
Smaller file sizes and greater options for setting the tab width in
whatever editor you want to use if you don't like the default tab
size of 8 characters.
Simon.
I don't remember the exact details, and it's been some time, but I seem
to recall some WEENDOZE utility changing tabs to spaces, and since then
I have declined to do any program editing on WEENDOZE. I stick to using
EDT.

Perhaps it was just a weird dream ....
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Arne Vajhøj
2021-02-11 16:24:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Froble
I don't remember the exact details, and it's been some time, but I seem
to recall some WEENDOZE utility changing tabs to spaces, and since then
I have declined to do any program editing on WEENDOZE.  I stick to using
EDT.
Perhaps it was just a weird dream ....
Lots of weird things around. Older editors and IDE's
often had some quirks.

But today I would expect both editors and IDE's
to be able to be configurable regarding tabs vs space
and to be able to convert between the two for existing files.

I often use jEdit for it, menus:
Edit - Indent - Spaces to Tabs
Edit - Indent - Tabs to Spaces

Arne
Chris Townley
2021-02-11 17:26:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Dave Froble
I don't remember the exact details, and it's been some time, but I
seem to recall some WEENDOZE utility changing tabs to spaces, and
since then I have declined to do any program editing on WEENDOZE.  I
stick to using EDT.
Perhaps it was just a weird dream ....
Lots of weird things around. Older editors and IDE's
often had some quirks.
But today I would expect both editors and IDE's
to be able to be configurable regarding tabs vs space
and to be able to convert between the two for existing files.
   Edit - Indent - Spaces to Tabs
   Edit - Indent - Tabs to Spaces
Arne
Jedit is excellent, shame it is so slow. Java...


Chris
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2021-02-11 16:36:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Even a minor thing such as "white space".  Is it spaces?  Is it tabs?
Is it both?  Do you care?
Tabs always.
Smaller file sizes and greater options for setting the tab width in
whatever editor you want to use if you don't like the default tab
size of 8 characters.
Simon.
I don't remember the exact details, and it's been some time, but I seem to
recall some WEENDOZE utility changing tabs to spaces, and since then I have
declined to do any program editing on WEENDOZE.  I stick to using EDT.
Perhaps it was just a weird dream ....
I strongly prefer to have "tab-less" source codes. But I have no
issue with the editor/IDE changing a tab into some configurable
number of spaces. That is just a convenience thing.

Not having TAB's in the source makes it also easier to copy the
source around and to include code snippets in mails or into Word
documnents and so on.

The argument about getting smaller files using tab's is, a joke.
Dave Froble
2021-02-11 16:47:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Dave Froble
Even a minor thing such as "white space". Is it spaces? Is it tabs?
Is it both? Do you care?
Tabs always.
Smaller file sizes and greater options for setting the tab width in
whatever editor you want to use if you don't like the default tab
size of 8 characters.
Simon.
I don't remember the exact details, and it's been some time, but I
seem to recall some WEENDOZE utility changing tabs to spaces, and
since then I have declined to do any program editing on WEENDOZE. I
stick to using EDT.
Perhaps it was just a weird dream ....
I strongly prefer to have "tab-less" source codes. But I have no
issue with the editor/IDE changing a tab into some configurable
number of spaces. That is just a convenience thing.
Not having TAB's in the source makes it also easier to copy the
source around and to include code snippets in mails or into Word
documnents and so on.
The argument about getting smaller files using tab's is, a joke.
I'm the opposite. I use tabs. One keystroke instead of some number of
keystrokes. Not because of file size.

Can I say, "different strokes for different folks"?

:-)
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Arne Vajhøj
2021-02-11 16:59:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
I strongly prefer to have "tab-less" source codes. But I have no
issue with the editor/IDE changing a tab into some configurable
number of spaces. That is just a convenience thing.
Not having TAB's in the source makes it also easier to copy the
source around and to include code snippets in mails or into Word
documnents and so on.
The argument about getting smaller files using tab's is, a joke.
I'm the opposite.  I use tabs.  One keystroke instead of some number of
keystrokes.  Not because of file size.
I believe everybody wants to use the TAB key to indent with.

The question is whether pressing that key results in a single
HT character or N number of spaces getting inserted in the
buffer/file.

Arne
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2021-02-11 21:44:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Simon Clubley
Even a minor thing such as "white space".  Is it spaces?  Is it tabs?
Is it both?  Do you care?
Tabs always.
Smaller file sizes and greater options for setting the tab width in
whatever editor you want to use if you don't like the default tab
size of 8 characters.
Simon.
I don't remember the exact details, and it's been some time, but I
seem to recall some WEENDOZE utility changing tabs to spaces, and
since then I have declined to do any program editing on WEENDOZE.  I
stick to using EDT.
Perhaps it was just a weird dream ....
I strongly prefer to have "tab-less" source codes. But I have no
issue with the editor/IDE changing a tab into some configurable
number of spaces. That is just a convenience thing.
Not having TAB's in the source makes it also easier to copy the
source around and to include code snippets in mails or into Word
documnents and so on.
The argument about getting smaller files using tab's is, a joke.
I'm the opposite.  I use tabs.  One keystroke instead of some number of
keystrokes.
You must traint your reading skills. I wrote that I'm happy with one
<tab> keystoke inserting a number of <space>'s.
Dennis Boone
2021-02-11 17:57:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
The argument about getting smaller files using tab's is, a joke.
When the unix folks started that, it wasn't. But it also has one
other significant advantage: you can configure your own environment
with the tabstops you prefer, and no source file modification is
necessary. With spaces, you can't do that. And never mind what
happens with spaces if it's a proportional font.

My pet rage is that two space indents are all but indistinguishable.
My eyes just work that way. Insisting on spaces and then selecting
two space indents is a good way to make me stabby.

De
Arne Vajhøj
2021-02-11 14:53:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
I got it installed, but I could not get it working in
any useful way.
But that may not be so surprising given that I have
never been able to get VS Code to work as I want for
anything.
Somehow that IDE and me are just not compatible.
And that is not necessarily a VS Code problem. I
know a lot of people like it.
I did take a look at it a while back.  Yes, it seemed to work, but, it
was not for me.  I'm going to assume that there will be some who like
it, and some who don't.
I've got a lot of habits I've developed over the last many years. In
some ways, the IDE forced me to do some things in other ways, and, I
didn't like that. Some minor, some major.
Yep.
When I first looked at VB, it was pretty much the same.  VB had it's own
way to format code, and it was not the way I format code.  So, what's
the real problem?  When I go back to read code, it is more difficult for
me, because it is not what I expect.
A good IDE allow for customization of formatting. But it can be some
work to get it as one want.
  Another thing that sounded good,
wasn't.  The automatic "compiling" of the code to insure it is correct.
But, too often it got involved before I was ready for it to do so, and
that was very irritating.
Today I believe most IDE's can do that rather non intrusive with small
underline or small flags either left or right side.

But 15-20 years ago VS could be rather annoying with that.
Even a minor thing such as "white space".  Is it spaces?  Is it tabs? Is
it both?  Do you care?
Most IDE's will make that configurable.
I don't need anything to slow me down, old age already has that well in
hand.
There are some areas where I believe IDE's save time, including:
* knowing the language runtime library so one get help to parameters -
that is a huge help with large runtime library
* refactoring support - where it can make a consistent change across
many source files
* automatic generation of boilerplate/stub code

Arne
Chris Townley
2021-02-11 15:02:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Arne Vajhøj
I got it installed, but I could not get it working in
any useful way.
But that may not be so surprising given that I have
never been able to get VS Code to work as I want for
anything.
Somehow that IDE and me are just not compatible.
And that is not necessarily a VS Code problem. I
know a lot of people like it.
I did take a look at it a while back.  Yes, it seemed to work, but, it
was not for me.  I'm going to assume that there will be some who like
it, and some who don't.
I've got a lot of habits I've developed over the last many years.  In
some ways, the IDE forced me to do some things in other ways, and, I
didn't like that.  Some minor, some major.
Yep.
When I first looked at VB, it was pretty much the same.  VB had it's
own way to format code, and it was not the way I format code.  So,
what's the real problem?  When I go back to read code, it is more
difficult for me, because it is not what I expect.
A good IDE allow for customization of formatting. But it can be some
work to get it as one want.
                                      Another thing that sounded good,
wasn't.  The automatic "compiling" of the code to insure it is
correct. But, too often it got involved before I was ready for it to
do so, and that was very irritating.
Today I believe most IDE's can do that rather non intrusive with small
underline or small flags either left or right side.
But 15-20 years ago VS could be rather annoying with that.
Even a minor thing such as "white space".  Is it spaces?  Is it tabs?
Is it both?  Do you care?
Most IDE's will make that configurable.
I don't need anything to slow me down, old age already has that well
in hand.
* knowing the language runtime library so one get help to parameters -
  that is a huge help with large runtime library
* refactoring support - where it can make a consistent change across
  many source files
* automatic generation of boilerplate/stub code
Arne
I tried, but quickly gave up.

Still prefer a well set up LSE

Chris
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2021-02-11 15:37:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Townley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
I got it installed, but I could not get it working in
any useful way.
But that may not be so surprising given that I have
never been able to get VS Code to work as I want for
anything.
Somehow that IDE and me are just not compatible.
And that is not necessarily a VS Code problem. I
know a lot of people like it.
I did take a look at it a while back.  Yes, it seemed to work, but, it
was not for me.  I'm going to assume that there will be some who like
it, and some who don't.
 > I've got a lot of habits I've developed over the last many years.  In
 > some ways, the IDE forced me to do some things in other ways, and, I
 > didn't like that.  Some minor, some major.
Yep.
When I first looked at VB, it was pretty much the same.  VB had it's own
way to format code, and it was not the way I format code.  So, what's
the real problem?  When I go back to read code, it is more difficult for
me, because it is not what I expect.
A good IDE allow for customization of formatting. But it can be some
work to get it as one want.
                                      Another thing that sounded good,
wasn't.  The automatic "compiling" of the code to insure it is correct.
But, too often it got involved before I was ready for it to do so, and
that was very irritating.
Today I believe most IDE's can do that rather non intrusive with small
underline or small flags either left or right side.
But 15-20 years ago VS could be rather annoying with that.
Even a minor thing such as "white space".  Is it spaces?  Is it tabs? Is
it both?  Do you care?
Most IDE's will make that configurable.
I don't need anything to slow me down, old age already has that well in
hand.
* knowing the language runtime library so one get help to parameters -
   that is a huge help with large runtime library
* refactoring support - where it can make a consistent change across
   many source files
* automatic generation of boilerplate/stub code
Arne
I tried, but quickly gave up.
Tried to set it up, but gave up?
Or you did set it up and tried to use it, but gave up?

And in both cases, why did you gave up?
Post by Chris Townley
Still prefer a well set up LSE
Chris
Chris Townley
2021-02-11 16:01:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Chris Townley
I tried, but quickly gave up.
Tried to set it up, but gave up?
Or you did set it up and tried to use it, but gave up?
And in both cases, why did you gave up?
Post by Chris Townley
Still prefer a well set up LSE
Chris
Couldn't get it to communicate, and disliked the interface. Also I have never got to grips with how it works - I have vaguely tried many times.

Chris
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2021-02-11 16:25:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Townley
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Chris Townley
I tried, but quickly gave up.
Tried to set it up, but gave up?
Or you did set it up and tried to use it, but gave up?
And in both cases, why did you gave up?
Post by Chris Townley
Still prefer a well set up LSE
Chris
Couldn't get it to communicate, and disliked the interface. Also I have never got to grips with how it works - I have vaguely tried many times.
Chris
OK. Seems as how it (doesn't) work for too.
The setup process could be much better described, IMHO.
Dave Froble
2021-02-11 16:50:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Chris Townley
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Chris Townley
I tried, but quickly gave up.
Tried to set it up, but gave up?
Or you did set it up and tried to use it, but gave up?
And in both cases, why did you gave up?
Post by Chris Townley
Still prefer a well set up LSE
Chris
Couldn't get it to communicate, and disliked the interface. Also I
have never got to grips with how it works - I have vaguely tried many
times.
Chris
OK. Seems as how it (doesn't) work for too.
The setup process could be much better described, IMHO.
My old setup was rather easy.

$ EDT :== EDIT/EDT

In my LOGIN.COM file.

:-)
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2021-02-11 21:41:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Chris Townley
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Chris Townley
I tried, but quickly gave up.
Tried to set it up, but gave up?
Or you did set it up and tried to use it, but gave up?
And in both cases, why did you gave up?
Post by Chris Townley
Still prefer a well set up LSE
Chris
Couldn't get it to communicate, and disliked the interface. Also I
have never got to grips with how it works - I have vaguely tried many
times.
Chris
OK. Seems as how it (doesn't) work for too.
The setup process could be much better described, IMHO.
My old setup was rather easy.
$ EDT :== EDIT/EDT
In my LOGIN.COM file.
:-)
OK. I do not understand how that relates to the VMS-IDE
environment as described on the VSI Wiki pages. Please
explain how that comment in any way spreads any light
over the VMS-IDE installation and setup process.
Dave Froble
2021-02-12 00:50:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Chris Townley
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Chris Townley
I tried, but quickly gave up.
Tried to set it up, but gave up?
Or you did set it up and tried to use it, but gave up?
And in both cases, why did you gave up?
Post by Chris Townley
Still prefer a well set up LSE
Chris
Couldn't get it to communicate, and disliked the interface. Also I
have never got to grips with how it works - I have vaguely tried many
times.
Chris
OK. Seems as how it (doesn't) work for too.
The setup process could be much better described, IMHO.
My old setup was rather easy.
$ EDT :== EDIT/EDT
In my LOGIN.COM file.
:-)
OK. I do not understand how that relates to the VMS-IDE
environment as described on the VSI Wiki pages. Please
explain how that comment in any way spreads any light
over the VMS-IDE installation and setup process.
By now you should understand my "unique" sense-of-humor.

But in this case, it is the same subject, "setup of editing", that
you're having the trouble with. It is how I set up my editing.

And no, you are correct, it has little to actually do with your VMS-IDE
setup, other than to say I've stayed with EDT as part of my VMS-IDE.
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Andrew Brehm
2021-02-12 18:17:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Hi.
I have been looking throught the VSI Wiki about VMS-IDE.
I have VS Code installed (and I have worked with many
differnt IDE's before and know Windows fairly well).
VSI exaggerate. Visual Studio Code, despite the "Visual Studio" in its
name, is not an IDE, just an editor. In fact it is a Microsoft-branded
version of the Atom editor.
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Now, I cannot follow the Wiki instruktions to get a simple
example VMS-IDE setup working. Has anyone (outside VSI)
managed to get a working VMS-IDE setup to work? And if so,
did you find the Wiki guides clear and easy to follow?
Yes, but I am somewhat used to VS Code. I use it regularly.
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
I cannot really describe where I get lost since I find the
Wiki to be a major mess without a clear line to follow.
Just a large bunch of links to different pages, but no
simple step by step list of the setup events to perform.
And besides, if you did get it to work, did you find that
it was worth the effort?
Yes, it's worth it. As an editor for C it is very useful as it does code
completion and has lots of plug-ins. The ssh connection to VMS machines
works well and I can easily create VMS C projects, write code on
Windows, and send code to VMS to compile and run. (I log on to the VMS
machine to run after compilation.)

I have not seen many alternatives apart from local development on VMS
(VS Code is better than Eve) or some version of Eclipse (which I dislike).
--
Andrew Brehm
Arne Vajhøj
2021-02-12 19:01:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Brehm
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
I have been looking throught the VSI Wiki about VMS-IDE.
I have VS Code installed (and I have worked with many
differnt IDE's before and know Windows fairly well).
VSI exaggerate. Visual Studio Code, despite the "Visual Studio" in its
name, is not an IDE, just an editor.
The distinction between a powerful editor and an IDE is not always
clear.

But VS Code team calls it an editor.

Quote from FAQ:

<quote>
What is the difference between Visual Studio Code and Visual Studio IDE?

Visual Studio Code is a streamlined code editor with support for
development operations like debugging, task running, and version
control. It aims to provide just the tools a developer needs for a quick
code-build-debug cycle and leaves more complex workflows to fuller
featured IDEs, such as Visual Studio IDE.
</quote>
Post by Andrew Brehm
In fact it is a Microsoft-branded
version of the Atom editor.
VS Code is based on the same tech stack as Atom: Electron.

But as far as I know the code base is totally independent.

A very brief glance at the source code did not find much
similarity:

https://github.com/atom/atom

https://github.com/microsoft/vscode
Post by Andrew Brehm
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Now, I cannot follow the Wiki instruktions to get a simple
example VMS-IDE setup working. Has anyone (outside VSI)
managed to get a working VMS-IDE setup to work? And if so,
did you find the Wiki guides clear and easy to follow?
Yes, but I am somewhat used to VS Code. I use it regularly.
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
I cannot really describe where I get lost since I find the
Wiki to be a major mess without a clear line to follow.
Just a large bunch of links to different pages, but no
simple step by step list of the setup events to perform.
And besides, if you did get it to work, did you find that
it was worth the effort?
Yes, it's worth it. As an editor for C it is very useful as it does code
completion and has lots of plug-ins. The ssh connection to VMS machines
works well and I can easily create VMS C projects, write code on
Windows, and send code to VMS to compile and run. (I log on to the VMS
machine to run after compilation.)
So if one knows and likes VS Code then it can work.

Arne
Scott Dorsey
2021-02-13 16:12:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
The distinction between a powerful editor and an IDE is not always
clear.
Emacs is not an editor. Emacs is not an IDE. Emacs is a whole new way of
thinking about computing.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2021-02-15 11:43:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Arne Vajhøj
The distinction between a powerful editor and an IDE is not always
clear.
Emacs is not an editor. Emacs is not an IDE. Emacs is a whole new way of
thinking about computing.
Some pundit once said that Emacs is an OK editor but pretty good as an
operating system. :-)
Simon Clubley
2021-02-15 13:46:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Arne Vajhøj
The distinction between a powerful editor and an IDE is not always
clear.
Emacs is not an editor. Emacs is not an IDE. Emacs is a whole new way of
thinking about computing.
I use Emacs because it does what I want when I want and it stays out
of the way at all other times.

I wish that was true for other editors and some of the GUI stuff that
is around these days.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Craig A. Berry
2021-02-12 21:42:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Hi.
I have been looking throught the VSI Wiki about VMS-IDE.
I have VS Code installed (and I have worked with many
differnt IDE's before and know Windows fairly well).
Now, I cannot follow the Wiki instruktions to get a simple
example VMS-IDE setup working. Has anyone (outside VSI)
managed to get a working VMS-IDE setup to work? And if so,
did you find the Wiki guides clear and easy to follow?
I cannot really describe where I get lost since I find the
Wiki to be a major mess without a clear line to follow.
Just a large bunch of links to different pages, but no
simple step by step list of the setup events to perform.
And besides, if you did get it to work, did you find that
it was worth the effort?
I was skeptical of your skepticism when I saw this post, but I just
spent an hour fussing with it before I finally got it to work. I use
VSCode all the time with various extensions on both macOS and Windows
and this one was a bit of a challenge. You really do need to watch all
4 of the instructional videos starting with this one:



The videos are short, which is convenient in some ways, but also makes
them a bit sketchy. It is difficult to know whether things like
particular folder names are mandatory or are just examples of something
that could vary.

Here are a couple of gotchas I eventually got past.

When I tried to upload the project I ran into the usual nightmare of
trying to connect to VMS via SSH with current algorithms. I added the
following to the settings file:

"vmssoftware.ssh-helper.connection.algorithms": {
"kex": [
"diffie-hellman-group1-sha1"
],
"serverHostKey": [
"ssh-dss",
"ssh-rsa"
]
},

and that did get me past the initial connection problems. I never did
get key exchange to work with the same key I use to log in all the time,
but password authentication did work. The error with key exchange was:

Cannot parse privateKey: Encrypted OpenSSH private key detected, but no
passphrase given

There is nowhere to enter a passphrase and it apparently does not have
the ability to query the agent that already has it loaded.

Another wrinkle was that in the settings file, the line that looks like:

"vmssoftware.synchronizer.project.source": "*.{c,cpp}",

has to be modified to add whatever source extensions you want if you are
not doing C or C++. I was testing with a simple Fortran program, which
initially did not get selected for inclusion in the generated MMS file
and did not get uploaded, so I had to change "*.{c,cpp}" to "*.{c,cpp,for}".

Until I figured out that it had not identified my source file, building
just gave me this:

%DCL-W-INSFPRM, missing command parameters - supply all required parameters
%MMS-F-ABORT, For target [.out.DEBUG]vmsidetest.EXE, CLI returned abort
status: %X00038048.
-CLI-W-INSFPRM, missing command parameters - supply all required parameters

which turns out to be a link command with no command parameter. There
was no way to debug that other than reading the generated MMS file and
understanding what it was trying to do and why it couldn't do it. I can
do that, but I'm not sure the target audience can.

Once things were set up right, running the debugger from VSCode was more
pleasant than the alternatives. There is a lot of potential here, but
expect some hours of configuration time for a project of any complexity.
I will say it is much nicer and more performant than the old NetBeans IDE.
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2021-02-12 23:46:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Hi.
I have been looking throught the VSI Wiki about VMS-IDE.
I have VS Code installed (and I have worked with many
differnt IDE's before and know Windows fairly well).
Now, I cannot follow the Wiki instruktions to get a simple
example VMS-IDE setup working. Has anyone (outside VSI)
managed to get a working VMS-IDE setup to work? And if so,
did you find the Wiki guides clear and easy to follow?
I cannot really describe where I get lost since I find the
Wiki to be a major mess without a clear line to follow.
Just a large bunch of links to different pages, but no
simple step by step list of the setup events to perform.
And besides, if you did get it to work, did you find that
it was worth the effort?
I was skeptical of your skepticism when I saw this post, but I just
spent an hour fussing with it before I finally got it to work.  I use
VSCode all the time with various extensions on both macOS and Windows
and this one was a bit of a challenge.  You really do need to watch all
http://youtu.be/Ib1Fo6cG1Vs
The videos are short, which is convenient in some ways, but also makes
them a bit sketchy. It is difficult to know whether things like
particular folder names are mandatory or are just examples of something
that could vary.
Here are a couple of gotchas I eventually got past.
When I tried to upload the project I ran into the usual nightmare of
trying to connect to VMS via SSH with current algorithms.  I added the
    "vmssoftware.ssh-helper.connection.algorithms": {
        "kex": [
            "diffie-hellman-group1-sha1"
        ],
        "serverHostKey": [
            "ssh-dss",
            "ssh-rsa"
        ]
    },
and that did get me past the initial connection problems.  I never did
get key exchange to work with the same key I use to log in all the time,
Cannot parse privateKey: Encrypted OpenSSH private key detected, but no
passphrase given
There is nowhere to enter a passphrase and it apparently does not have
the ability to query the agent that already has it loaded.
    "vmssoftware.synchronizer.project.source": "*.{c,cpp}",
has to be modified to add whatever source extensions you want if you are
not doing C or C++.  I was testing with a simple Fortran program, which
initially did not get selected for inclusion in the generated MMS file
and did not get uploaded, so I had to change "*.{c,cpp}" to "*.{c,cpp,for}".
Until I figured out that it had not identified my source file, building
%DCL-W-INSFPRM, missing command parameters - supply all required parameters
%MMS-F-ABORT, For target [.out.DEBUG]vmsidetest.EXE, CLI returned abort
status: %X00038048.
-CLI-W-INSFPRM, missing command parameters - supply all required parameters
which turns out to be a link command with no command parameter.  There
was no way to debug that other than reading the generated MMS file and
understanding what it was trying to do and why it couldn't do it.  I can
do that, but I'm not sure the target audience can.
Once things were set up right, running the debugger from VSCode was more
pleasant than the alternatives.  There is a lot of potential here, but
expect some hours of configuration time for a project of any complexity.
I will say it is much nicer and more performant than the old NetBeans IDE.
Thanks! The most informative post so far. No mention of EDT or LSE...

About your SSH key issues. I understood that you could run SSH in some
"password only" mode. And I mananged to get that "do you accept this host"
questions. I have seen that with Putty and SSH before.

I do not think that you should need Youtube to get a software working
from a professional supplier. There should be proper documentation.

I'll probably give it another try. I'm running over a VPN solution
using something called "Zscaler". I have no issues with plain telnet
sessions from Putty, but things like remote host/ip address lookup
seems to give some issues.

Are you forced to use SSH? Doesn't VMS-IDE work using plan FTP sessions?

Have to take another look, I guess...
Craig A. Berry
2021-02-13 04:01:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
I do not think that you should need Youtube to get a software working
from a professional supplier. There should be proper documentation.
The documentation is ok but doesn't really provide a cookbook of what to
do in what order. The videos do that but race through the steps without
much explanation of why. There is plenty of information there but you
might have to read and reread or watch and rewatch until things click.
Not unlike reading the orange wall.
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Are you forced to use SSH? Doesn't VMS-IDE work using plan FTP sessions?
Yes, of course. No software from a "professional supplier" would use
FTP in this day and age :-).
Arne Vajhøj
2021-02-12 23:59:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
I have been looking throught the VSI Wiki about VMS-IDE.
I have VS Code installed (and I have worked with many
differnt IDE's before and know Windows fairly well).
Now, I cannot follow the Wiki instruktions to get a simple
example VMS-IDE setup working. Has anyone (outside VSI)
managed to get a working VMS-IDE setup to work? And if so,
did you find the Wiki guides clear and easy to follow?
I cannot really describe where I get lost since I find the
Wiki to be a major mess without a clear line to follow.
Just a large bunch of links to different pages, but no
simple step by step list of the setup events to perform.
And besides, if you did get it to work, did you find that
it was worth the effort?
I was skeptical of your skepticism when I saw this post, but I just
spent an hour fussing with it before I finally got it to work.  I use
VSCode all the time with various extensions on both macOS and Windows
and this one was a bit of a challenge.
I think I am starting to see a pattern.

:-)

People with VS Code experience => has gotten it to work with some effort

People with none or little VS Code experience => got lost somewhere
during configuration
Post by Craig A. Berry
    "vmssoftware.synchronizer.project.source": "*.{c,cpp}",
has to be modified to add whatever source extensions you want if you are
not doing C or C++.  I was testing with a simple Fortran program, which
initially did not get selected for inclusion in the generated MMS file
and did not get uploaded, so I had to change "*.{c,cpp}" to
"*.{c,cpp,for}".
What about .h ??
Post by Craig A. Berry
Once things were set up right, running the debugger from VSCode was more
pleasant than the alternatives.  There is a lot of potential here, but
expect some hours of configuration time for a project of any complexity.
I will say it is much nicer and more performant than the old NetBeans IDE.
So Jan-Erik should give it another try.

:-)

I suspect that the PC's used to run VS Code today is a lot
more powerful than the PC's used to run NetBeans when that
was new.

Arne
Craig A. Berry
2021-02-13 04:08:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
     "vmssoftware.synchronizer.project.source": "*.{c,cpp}",
has to be modified to add whatever source extensions you want if you are
not doing C or C++.  I was testing with a simple Fortran program, which
initially did not get selected for inclusion in the generated MMS file
and did not get uploaded, so I had to change "*.{c,cpp}" to
"*.{c,cpp,for}".
What about .h ??
Separate line:

"vmssoftware.synchronizer.project.headers": "*.{h,hpp}",

I believe the compiler default for Fortran is .for though I think I've
always seen .inc used (but it's been a long time and I may not be
remembering that right). In any case, the point is that you have to
know what file extensions you have in your code and modify the settings
file to find them.
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2021-02-13 10:13:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
I have been looking throught the VSI Wiki about VMS-IDE.
I have VS Code installed (and I have worked with many
differnt IDE's before and know Windows fairly well).
Now, I cannot follow the Wiki instruktions to get a simple
example VMS-IDE setup working. Has anyone (outside VSI)
managed to get a working VMS-IDE setup to work? And if so,
did you find the Wiki guides clear and easy to follow?
I cannot really describe where I get lost since I find the
Wiki to be a major mess without a clear line to follow.
Just a large bunch of links to different pages, but no
simple step by step list of the setup events to perform.
And besides, if you did get it to work, did you find that
it was worth the effort?
I was skeptical of your skepticism when I saw this post, but I just
spent an hour fussing with it before I finally got it to work.  I use
VSCode all the time with various extensions on both macOS and Windows
and this one was a bit of a challenge.
I think I am starting to see a pattern.
:-)
People with VS Code experience => has gotten it to work with some effort
People with none or little VS Code experience => got lost somewhere during
configuration
Post by Craig A. Berry
     "vmssoftware.synchronizer.project.source": "*.{c,cpp}",
has to be modified to add whatever source extensions you want if you are
not doing C or C++.  I was testing with a simple Fortran program, which
initially did not get selected for inclusion in the generated MMS file
and did not get uploaded, so I had to change "*.{c,cpp}" to "*.{c,cpp,for}".
What about .h ??
Post by Craig A. Berry
Once things were set up right, running the debugger from VSCode was more
pleasant than the alternatives.  There is a lot of potential here, but
expect some hours of configuration time for a project of any complexity.
I will say it is much nicer and more performant than the old NetBeans IDE.
Well, I tried to setup and use the NetBeans solution also. Even had one
of the developers of that solution connected remotely to my laptop, but
I do not remember that I ever got it working...
Post by Arne Vajhøj
So Jan-Erik should give it another try.
Sure. We are currently looking at what our future VMS development
environment should look like, and VMS-IDE should be evaluated also.
Post by Arne Vajhøj
:-)
I suspect that the PC's used to run VS Code today is a lot
more powerful than the PC's used to run NetBeans when that
was new.
Arne
I has nothing to do with how "powerful" the client is. Is has everything
to do with the inability to write clear and working documentation.
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2021-02-13 12:28:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Arne Vajhøj
So Jan-Erik should give it another try.
Sure. We are currently looking at what our future VMS development
environment should look like, and VMS-IDE should be evaluated also.
Let me suggest the unthinkable: VMS workstations!
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2021-02-13 12:41:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Arne Vajhøj
So Jan-Erik should give it another try.
Sure. We are currently looking at what our future VMS development
environment should look like, and VMS-IDE should be evaluated also.
Let me suggest the unthinkable: VMS workstations!
Please... 10 years ago that might had still been funny. Do you have
anything to add to the discussion around VMS-IDE? No, probably not...
John Dallman
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Sure. We are currently looking at what our future VMS development
environment should look like, and VMS-IDE should be evaluated also.
Let me suggest the unthinkable: VMS workstations!
That's achievable, in practical terms, with VMS x86 running in a VM on
Windows or Linux. I'd probably do it on Windows, simply because SAMBA on
VMS would make it easy to run my preferred editor (GNU Emacs with a
custom major mode) on Windows while editing files on the VMS virtual disk.
Or at any rate, less work than getting the Emacs and its mode running on
VMS.

John
Simon Clubley
2021-02-15 13:18:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Dallman
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Sure. We are currently looking at what our future VMS development
environment should look like, and VMS-IDE should be evaluated also.
Let me suggest the unthinkable: VMS workstations!
That's achievable, in practical terms, with VMS x86 running in a VM on
Windows or Linux. I'd probably do it on Windows, simply because SAMBA on
VMS would make it easy to run my preferred editor (GNU Emacs with a
custom major mode) on Windows while editing files on the VMS virtual disk.
Or at any rate, less work than getting the Emacs and its mode running on
VMS.
Well you can forget about getting Phillip to try that given your first
sentence. :-)

You may have more luck trying to get him to run a Linux desktop and
then connect to VMS over SSH so he could run VMS X applications and
display them on the Linux display over SSH.

Good luck. :-) (I've already tried...)

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2021-02-15 13:37:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
You may have more luck trying to get him to run a Linux desktop and
then connect to VMS over SSH so he could run VMS X applications and
display them on the Linux display over SSH.
I just don't get it. Why have an additional system? Why not just
develop VMS stuff on a VMS system and stick a graphics terminal on it?
Simon Clubley
2021-02-15 13:41:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Simon Clubley
You may have more luck trying to get him to run a Linux desktop and
then connect to VMS over SSH so he could run VMS X applications and
display them on the Linux display over SSH.
I just don't get it. Why have an additional system? Why not just
develop VMS stuff on a VMS system and stick a graphics terminal on it?
Because my suggestion is viable in today's market.

Your suggestion is not.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2021-02-15 15:09:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Simon Clubley
You may have more luck trying to get him to run a Linux desktop and
then connect to VMS over SSH so he could run VMS X applications and
display them on the Linux display over SSH.
I just don't get it. Why have an additional system? Why not just
develop VMS stuff on a VMS system and stick a graphics terminal on it?
Because my suggestion is viable in today's market.
But we're talking about VMS development, not the general market.
Simon Clubley
2021-02-15 18:31:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Simon Clubley
You may have more luck trying to get him to run a Linux desktop and
then connect to VMS over SSH so he could run VMS X applications and
display them on the Linux display over SSH.
I just don't get it. Why have an additional system? Why not just
develop VMS stuff on a VMS system and stick a graphics terminal on it?
Because my suggestion is viable in today's market.
But we're talking about VMS development, not the general market.
In today's world, even dedicated developers need access to a range of
tools that are not present on VMS.

There is also no market these days to bring those tools to VMS.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Bill Gunshannon
2021-02-15 20:16:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Simon Clubley
You may have more luck trying to get him to run a Linux desktop and
then connect to VMS over SSH so he could run VMS X applications and
display them on the Linux display over SSH.
I just don't get it. Why have an additional system? Why not just
develop VMS stuff on a VMS system and stick a graphics terminal on it?
Because my suggestion is viable in today's market.
But we're talking about VMS development, not the general market.
In today's world, even dedicated developers need access to a range of
tools that are not present on VMS.
There is also no market these days to bring those tools to VMS.
So, you are saying there are no developers on VMS? Then what is the
point of the port?

bill
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2021-02-15 22:08:27 UTC
Permalink
On 2021-02-15, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
On 2021-02-15, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Simon Clubley
You may have more luck trying to get him to run a Linux desktop and
then connect to VMS over SSH so he could run VMS X applications and
display them on the Linux display over SSH.
I just don't get it.  Why have an additional system?  Why not just
develop VMS stuff on a VMS system and stick a graphics terminal on it?
Because my suggestion is viable in today's market.
But we're talking about VMS development, not the general market.
In today's world, even dedicated developers need access to a range of
tools that are not present on VMS.
There is also no market these days to bring those tools to VMS.
So, you are saying there are no developers on VMS?  Then what is the
point of the port?
bill
No, he is not. Simon is saying that "developing on VMS" is more work
*outside* of VMS than within VMS itself. You need to write specifications
and presentsation material. You need to collobarate with others. Writing
the actual code is not everything you need to do. And those other tasks
are best done outside of VMS, at least if you like to keep any creadability
as a developer in todays world.
Simon Clubley
2021-02-16 13:26:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
On 2021-02-15, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
On 2021-02-15, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Simon Clubley
You may have more luck trying to get him to run a Linux desktop and
then connect to VMS over SSH so he could run VMS X applications and
display them on the Linux display over SSH.
I just don't get it.  Why have an additional system?  Why not just
develop VMS stuff on a VMS system and stick a graphics terminal on it?
Because my suggestion is viable in today's market.
But we're talking about VMS development, not the general market.
In today's world, even dedicated developers need access to a range of
tools that are not present on VMS.
There is also no market these days to bring those tools to VMS.
So, you are saying there are no developers on VMS?  Then what is the
point of the port?
bill
No, he is not. Simon is saying that "developing on VMS" is more work
*outside* of VMS than within VMS itself. You need to write specifications
and presentsation material. You need to collobarate with others. Writing
the actual code is not everything you need to do. And those other tasks
are best done outside of VMS, at least if you like to keep any creadability
as a developer in todays world.
Thank you Jan-Erik. That is indeed exactly what I am saying.

Times have changed and VMS people need to change as well.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Dave Froble
2021-02-15 20:45:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Simon Clubley
You may have more luck trying to get him to run a Linux desktop and
then connect to VMS over SSH so he could run VMS X applications and
display them on the Linux display over SSH.
I just don't get it. Why have an additional system? Why not just
develop VMS stuff on a VMS system and stick a graphics terminal on it?
Because my suggestion is viable in today's market.
But we're talking about VMS development, not the general market.
In today's world, even dedicated developers need access to a range of
tools that are not present on VMS.
There is also no market these days to bring those tools to VMS.
Simon.
One needs to look at things from more than one angle.

Soon we will be running VMS on x86 hardware, which could be called PCs.
So, what's wrong with an x86 VMS system running some non-VMS apps in a
VM on that VMS system?

It seems to me that a few people, no names, are too stubborn to realize
that they are about to get everything they've been asking for, if not
exactly in the method they think they want.
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Dave Froble
2021-02-15 20:40:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Simon Clubley
You may have more luck trying to get him to run a Linux desktop and
then connect to VMS over SSH so he could run VMS X applications and
display them on the Linux display over SSH.
I just don't get it. Why have an additional system? Why not just
develop VMS stuff on a VMS system and stick a graphics terminal on it?
Because my suggestion is viable in today's market.
But we're talking about VMS development, not the general market.
Oh, really?

One does not need a GUI to do VMS development work.

Rather soon now, a PC will be a VMS system, for various definitions of
"PC". Quite a few past VMS systems can be called "PC"s.

For that matter, an Alpha cannot run VMS. An Alpha with PAL code can
run VMS. Why not just consider VMs a form of PAL code?
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Bill Gunshannon
2021-02-15 17:31:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Simon Clubley
You may have more luck trying to get him to run a Linux desktop and
then connect to VMS over SSH so he could run VMS X applications and
display them on the Linux display over SSH.
I just don't get it. Why have an additional system? Why not just
develop VMS stuff on a VMS system and stick a graphics terminal on it?
Because my suggestion is viable in today's market.
Your suggestion is not.
The only thing keeping it out of today's market is how hard it is to
make it work, not its capabilities.


bill
Scott Dorsey
2021-02-15 15:24:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Simon Clubley
You may have more luck trying to get him to run a Linux desktop and
then connect to VMS over SSH so he could run VMS X applications and
display them on the Linux display over SSH.
I just don't get it. Why have an additional system? Why not just
develop VMS stuff on a VMS system and stick a graphics terminal on it?
Because that's what your linux box is... it becomes a graphics terminal.

If you don't want to use a linux box you could get an xterminal. Except
that nobody makes xterminals any more because linux boxes are cheaper.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2021-02-15 15:25:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Simon Clubley
You may have more luck trying to get him to run a Linux desktop and
then connect to VMS over SSH so he could run VMS X applications and
display them on the Linux display over SSH.
I just don't get it. Why have an additional system? Why not just
develop VMS stuff on a VMS system and stick a graphics terminal on it?
Because that's what your linux box is... it becomes a graphics terminal.
If you don't want to use a linux box you could get an xterminal. Except
that nobody makes xterminals any more because linux boxes are cheaper.
But surely just a monitor is not only cheaper than a linux box, but much
less of a hassle.
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2021-02-15 15:29:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Simon Clubley
You may have more luck trying to get him to run a Linux desktop and
then connect to VMS over SSH so he could run VMS X applications and
display them on the Linux display over SSH.
I just don't get it. Why have an additional system? Why not just
develop VMS stuff on a VMS system and stick a graphics terminal on it?
Because that's what your linux box is... it becomes a graphics terminal.
If you don't want to use a linux box you could get an xterminal. Except
that nobody makes xterminals any more because linux boxes are cheaper.
But surely just a monitor is not only cheaper than a linux box, but much
less of a hassle.
How would that work? "Just a monitor"? My systems are 170 Km away.
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2021-02-15 16:00:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
But surely just a monitor is not only cheaper than a linux box, but much
less of a hassle.
How would that work? "Just a monitor"? My systems are 170 Km away.
That's obviously a different situation. But even there, I would prefer
a local workstation, because I can have a proper keyboard, have
DECterms and CDE run properly, and so on. One can even export the
entire CDE interface via X- or DECwindows, rather than running it
locally.
John Dallman
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
That's obviously a different situation. But even there, I would
prefer a local workstation, because I can have a proper keyboard,
have DECterms and CDE run properly, and so on. One can even export
the entire CDE interface via X- or DECwindows, rather than running
it locally.
The problem with running VMS on x86 bare metal is device drivers. In DEC
days, DEC took care of that, and provided device drivers for their own
hardware. However, there is no way that VSI will be able to do that,
because they don't produce hardware and the range of available x86 PC
hardware is much, much, more varied than DEC hardware ever was.

PCs have been around for nearly forty years now. During that time, many
large manufacturers have risen and fallen, all of whom have been trying
to find ways to make their commodity hardware cheaper. This has made it
quite variable. They've been willing to write Windows device drivers for
it because that was part of the cost of being in that market. Rather
fewer of them have been willing to write Linux device drivers. I
confidently predict that none of them will start offering VMS device
drivers unless it becomes successful beyond VSI's wildest dreams.

Running VMS in a VM on a Linux or Windows PC gives you a way to make use
of hardware for which there are no VMS device drivers. Performance
suffers, especially on graphics, but modern PC hardware and GPUs are fast
enough that the net result will be much faster than the graphics on old
VMS workstations. Using X11 on a Linux (or Windows) host lets you use it
as an X-terminal.

John
Bill Gunshannon
2021-02-15 17:34:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Simon Clubley
You may have more luck trying to get him to run a Linux desktop and
then connect to VMS over SSH so he could run VMS X applications and
display them on the Linux display over SSH.
I just don't get it.  Why have an additional system?  Why not just
develop VMS stuff on a VMS system and stick a graphics terminal on it?
Because that's what your linux box is... it becomes a graphics terminal.
If you don't want to use a linux box you could get an xterminal. Except
that nobody makes xterminals any more because linux boxes are cheaper.
But surely just a monitor is not only cheaper than a linux box, but much
less of a hassle.
How would that work? "Just a monitor"? My systems are 170 Km away.
Well, I once had a cabler long enough to run under the floor from
my department data center to my office so all I had on my desk was
the monitor, keyboard and hockey puck mouse. Not sure DEC ever made
a 170 Km cable, though. :-)

bill
Dave Froble
2021-02-15 20:47:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Simon Clubley
You may have more luck trying to get him to run a Linux desktop and
then connect to VMS over SSH so he could run VMS X applications and
display them on the Linux display over SSH.
I just don't get it. Why have an additional system? Why not just
develop VMS stuff on a VMS system and stick a graphics terminal on it?
Because that's what your linux box is... it becomes a graphics terminal.
If you don't want to use a linux box you could get an xterminal. Except
that nobody makes xterminals any more because linux boxes are cheaper.
But surely just a monitor is not only cheaper than a linux box, but much
less of a hassle.
Shirley doesn't agree ...

What's the cost of the cheapest monitor you can find?

What's the cost of a Rasbery Pi?

The hassle is listening to complaints.
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Scott Dorsey
2021-02-15 23:38:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Simon Clubley
You may have more luck trying to get him to run a Linux desktop and
then connect to VMS over SSH so he could run VMS X applications and
display them on the Linux display over SSH.
I just don't get it. Why have an additional system? Why not just
develop VMS stuff on a VMS system and stick a graphics terminal on it?
Because that's what your linux box is... it becomes a graphics terminal.
If you don't want to use a linux box you could get an xterminal. Except
that nobody makes xterminals any more because linux boxes are cheaper.
But surely just a monitor is not only cheaper than a linux box, but much
less of a hassle.
It's not cheaper, that's basically what has happened.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Bill Gunshannon
2021-02-15 17:30:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Simon Clubley
You may have more luck trying to get him to run a Linux desktop and
then connect to VMS over SSH so he could run VMS X applications and
display them on the Linux display over SSH.
I just don't get it. Why have an additional system? Why not just
develop VMS stuff on a VMS system and stick a graphics terminal on it?
And then run jGrasp as your IDE. :-) Unless your still stuck on a
VAX.

bill
Dave Froble
2021-02-15 20:33:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Good luck. :-) (I've already tried...)
Why?
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Simon Clubley
2021-02-16 13:43:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Good luck. :-) (I've already tried...)
Why?
Phillip complained about not been able to run a modern browser on VMS
so I have given him two options:

1) Buy a small Linux box and logon to it from his VMS workstation over SSH
so he can run Firefox on the Linux box and have the output display on his
VMS workstation.

This relies on the X and SSH implementations on VMS being modern enough
to allow him to do this.

2) Use a Linux machine as his desktop and connect to his VMS machines over
SSH so the X output from his VMS machines shows up on the Linux box.

Phillip did not receive either idea very well.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Simon Clubley
2021-02-15 13:13:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Arne Vajhøj
So Jan-Erik should give it another try.
Sure. We are currently looking at what our future VMS development
environment should look like, and VMS-IDE should be evaluated also.
Let me suggest the unthinkable: VMS workstations!
You are correct Phillip: that is unthinkable.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2021-02-15 13:14:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Arne Vajhøj
So Jan-Erik should give it another try.
Sure. We are currently looking at what our future VMS development
environment should look like, and VMS-IDE should be evaluated also.
Let me suggest the unthinkable: VMS workstations!
You are correct Phillip: that is unthinkable.
Then that means that I do the unthinkable every day. :-)
Dave Froble
2021-02-15 20:52:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Arne Vajhøj
So Jan-Erik should give it another try.
Sure. We are currently looking at what our future VMS development
environment should look like, and VMS-IDE should be evaluated also.
Let me suggest the unthinkable: VMS workstations!
You are correct Phillip: that is unthinkable.
Then that means that I do the unthinkable every day. :-)
Your VMS workstation includes an IDE?

Will wonders never cease?
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Bill Gunshannon
2021-02-15 17:38:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Arne Vajhøj
So Jan-Erik should give it another try.
Sure. We are currently looking at what our future VMS development
environment should look like, and VMS-IDE should be evaluated also.
Let me suggest the unthinkable: VMS workstations!
You are correct Phillip: that is unthinkable.
I ran VMS workstations until all of VMS was forced out of the
University. It wasn't the workstations that became unpopular.
It was VMS in general. Given the opportunity I really can't
think of any reason someone who wants to run VMS would balk
at the idea of VMS Workstations.

bill
Simon Clubley
2021-02-15 18:40:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Simon Clubley
You are correct Phillip: that is unthinkable.
I ran VMS workstations until all of VMS was forced out of the
University. It wasn't the workstations that became unpopular.
It was VMS in general. Given the opportunity I really can't
think of any reason someone who wants to run VMS would balk
at the idea of VMS Workstations.
MS-DOS and GEM were very popular at one time.

Times change and so does the market and commercial viability.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Bill Gunshannon
2021-02-15 20:15:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Simon Clubley
You are correct Phillip: that is unthinkable.
I ran VMS workstations until all of VMS was forced out of the
University. It wasn't the workstations that became unpopular.
It was VMS in general. Given the opportunity I really can't
think of any reason someone who wants to run VMS would balk
at the idea of VMS Workstations.
MS-DOS and GEM were very popular at one time.
Times change and so does the market and commercial viability.
So, your saying they should just give up on the x86 port of VMS
because times change and so does the market and commercial
viability?

Some of us think VMS is still very viable. and some of us,
albeit a smaller subset, think it could still be viable on
the desktop for those in group 1.

bill
Simon Clubley
2021-02-16 13:37:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Simon Clubley
You are correct Phillip: that is unthinkable.
I ran VMS workstations until all of VMS was forced out of the
University. It wasn't the workstations that became unpopular.
It was VMS in general. Given the opportunity I really can't
think of any reason someone who wants to run VMS would balk
at the idea of VMS Workstations.
MS-DOS and GEM were very popular at one time.
Times change and so does the market and commercial viability.
So, your saying they should just give up on the x86 port of VMS
because times change and so does the market and commercial
viability?
How on earth do you get from my saying VMS workstations are no longer
viable to trying to make it sound I am saying VMS itself is not viable ??? :-(

Just to make this clear:

I do not think there is a viable market for dedicated VMS workstations
any more.

I do think there is still a market for VMS itself, but you need to
start thinking of VMS as more like z/OS, in that it is something with
unique capabilities or existing applications that is just used for
those unique capabilities or existing applications.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2021-02-16 13:59:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
I do not think there is a viable market for dedicated VMS workstations
any more.
I do think there is still a market for VMS itself, but you need to
start thinking of VMS as more like z/OS, in that it is something with
unique capabilities or existing applications that is just used for
those unique capabilities or existing applications.
First, that is your opinion. Others have others. Second, do you want
VMS to end up like z/OS?

Dave Froble
2021-02-15 20:54:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Gunshannon
On 2021-02-13, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Arne Vajhøj
So Jan-Erik should give it another try.
Sure. We are currently looking at what our future VMS development
environment should look like, and VMS-IDE should be evaluated also.
Let me suggest the unthinkable: VMS workstations!
You are correct Phillip: that is unthinkable.
I ran VMS workstations until all of VMS was forced out of the
University. It wasn't the workstations that became unpopular.
It was VMS in general. Given the opportunity I really can't
think of any reason someone who wants to run VMS would balk
at the idea of VMS Workstations.
Which is why VSI is about to bring them back.
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Arne Vajhøj
2021-02-13 13:36:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Craig A. Berry
Once things were set up right, running the debugger from VSCode was more
pleasant than the alternatives.  There is a lot of potential here, but
expect some hours of configuration time for a project of any complexity.
I will say it is much nicer and more performant than the old NetBeans IDE.
Well, I tried to setup and use the NetBeans solution also. Even had one
of the developers of that solution connected remotely to my laptop, but
I do not remember that I ever got it working...
Post by Arne Vajhøj
I suspect that the PC's used to run VS Code today is a lot
more powerful than the PC's used to run NetBeans when that
was new.
I has nothing to do with how "powerful" the client is. Is has everything
to do with the inability to write clear and working documentation.
The powerful remark was related to the "more performant".

Arne
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2021-02-13 14:58:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Craig A. Berry
Once things were set up right, running the debugger from VSCode was more
pleasant than the alternatives.  There is a lot of potential here, but
expect some hours of configuration time for a project of any complexity.
I will say it is much nicer and more performant than the old NetBeans IDE.
Well, I tried to setup and use the NetBeans solution also. Even had one
of the developers of that solution connected remotely to my laptop, but
I do not remember that I ever got it working...
Post by Arne Vajhøj
I suspect that the PC's used to run VS Code today is a lot
more powerful than the PC's used to run NetBeans when that
was new.
I has nothing to do with how "powerful" the client is. Is has everything
to do with the inability to write clear and working documentation.
The powerful remark was related to the "more performant".
Arne
Ah, OK. You mean the relative performance between NetBeans and VS Code?
Yes, our laptop systems has evolved, but I's expect it to be more
depending on the technical platforms to develop each IDE. NetBeans
is a Java application, if I'm not wrong. Don't know about VS Code.

Anyway, how hard it is to set them up and get it working, has little
to do with that and more with the instructions/docs describing it.

And to me it is obviouse that VMS-IDE needs better docs. Not just some
hacked-together Wiki pages.
Dave Froble
2021-02-13 16:48:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Craig A. Berry
Once things were set up right, running the debugger from VSCode was more
pleasant than the alternatives. There is a lot of potential here, but
expect some hours of configuration time for a project of any complexity.
I will say it is much nicer and more performant than the old NetBeans IDE.
Well, I tried to setup and use the NetBeans solution also. Even had one
of the developers of that solution connected remotely to my laptop, but
I do not remember that I ever got it working...
Post by Arne Vajhøj
I suspect that the PC's used to run VS Code today is a lot
more powerful than the PC's used to run NetBeans when that
was new.
I has nothing to do with how "powerful" the client is. Is has everything
to do with the inability to write clear and working documentation.
The powerful remark was related to the "more performant".
Arne
Ah, OK. You mean the relative performance between NetBeans and VS Code?
Yes, our laptop systems has evolved, but I's expect it to be more
depending on the technical platforms to develop each IDE. NetBeans
is a Java application, if I'm not wrong. Don't know about VS Code.
Anyway, how hard it is to set them up and get it working, has little
to do with that and more with the instructions/docs describing it.
And to me it is obviouse that VMS-IDE needs better docs. Not just some
hacked-together Wiki pages.
Ah, but that is the new "modern" way ...

You've been spoiled by older VMS documentation. You know, where things
were explained, not just some poorly described sample.
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Craig A. Berry
2021-02-13 18:41:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
And to me it is obviouse that VMS-IDE needs better docs. Not just some
hacked-together Wiki pages.
Ah, but that is the new "modern" way ...
You've been spoiled by older VMS documentation.  You know, where things
were explained, not just some poorly described sample.
The VMS-IDE docs are more readable and have better examples than most of
the orange or gray wall. They are less thorough than those used to be,
but the standard VMS documentation has not been kept as thorough or
up-to-date in the HP/HPE era as it was previously (e.g. how many TCP/IP
Services features have only been mentioned in the release notes?). The
getting started videos for VMS-IDE will be strongly preferred by most of
the target audience over traditional documentation. Those who don't
prefer that format (which includes me) can just suck it up like I did
and spend 10 minutes watching the videos, assuming getting the thing
working is more important than having something to complain about.
Arne Vajhøj
2021-02-13 20:57:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Craig A. Berry
Once things were set up right, running the debugger from VSCode was more
pleasant than the alternatives.  There is a lot of potential here, but
expect some hours of configuration time for a project of any complexity.
I will say it is much nicer and more performant than the old NetBeans IDE.
Well, I tried to setup and use the NetBeans solution also. Even had one
of the developers of that solution connected remotely to my laptop, but
I do not remember that I ever got it working...
Post by Arne Vajhøj
I suspect that the PC's used to run VS Code today is a lot
more powerful than the PC's used to run NetBeans when that
was new.
I has nothing to do with how "powerful" the client is. Is has everything
to do with the inability to write clear and working documentation.
The powerful remark was related to the "more performant".
Ah, OK. You mean the relative performance between NetBeans and VS Code?
Yes - that seems to be what Craig was referring to.
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Yes, our laptop systems has evolved, but I's expect it to be more
depending on the technical platforms to develop each IDE. NetBeans
is a Java application, if I'm not wrong. Don't know about VS Code.
NetBeans is Java Swing.

VS Code is Electron - that is an embedded browser and embedded node.js
(web server in JavaScript) and a HTML 5 application.
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Anyway, how hard it is to set them up and get it working, has little
to do with that and more with the instructions/docs describing it.
True.
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
And to me it is obviouse that VMS-IDE needs better docs. Not just some
hacked-together Wiki pages.
If VMS IDE is really going to take off then yes.

Arne
Craig A. Berry
2021-02-13 23:52:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Craig A. Berry
I will say it is much nicer and more performant than the old NetBeans IDE.
Well, I tried to setup and use the NetBeans solution also. Even had one
of the developers of that solution connected remotely to my laptop, but
I do not remember that I ever got it working...
IIRC, you had to have a network that allowed Java RMI. That was not
something every corporate firewall would allow. There may have been
other problems as well, but that's what I remember.
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Arne Vajhøj
I suspect that the PC's used to run VS Code today is a lot
more powerful than the PC's used to run NetBeans when that
was new.
PCs of that era could run NetBeans just fine. Millions of lines of Java
code got written that way. But the NetBeans IDE for VMS was slow, and
that may have been a function of the VMS IDE plug-in for NetBeans, the
IDE server on the VMS side, the notoriously lame network performance of
VMS itself, or all of the above.

The VSCode VMS-IDE extension does not require anything new or special on
the server side. As far as I can tell it's mostly just transferring
files and sending commands over SSH. It presumably also uses the
(undocumented?) remote debugging API for the OpenVMS debugger just like
the ancient Windows client from a couple of decades ago did. I suspect,
but don't actually know, that the two-tier model is just faster than the
three-tier model the NetBeans IDE had.
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
I has nothing to do with how "powerful" the client is. Is has everything
to do with the inability to write clear and working documentation.
The powerful remark was related to the "more performant".
Ah, OK. You mean the relative performance between NetBeans and VS Code?
Yes - that seems to be what Craig was referring to.
Right. I'm not sure what else "more performant than the old NetBeans
IDE" could mean.
Simon Clubley
2021-02-15 13:25:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
I has nothing to do with how "powerful" the client is. Is has everything
to do with the inability to write clear and working documentation.
The powerful remark was related to the "more performant".
Ah, OK. You mean the relative performance between NetBeans and VS Code?
Yes - that seems to be what Craig was referring to.
Right. I'm not sure what else "more performant than the old NetBeans
IDE" could mean.
Remember that not everyone around here has English as their first
language and those who do not are a lot better at writing English
than I suspect many around here would be at writing postings in the
native language of the poster.

I for one, do not know any Swedish...

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Scott Dorsey
2021-02-15 15:22:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Remember that not everyone around here has English as their first
language and those who do not are a lot better at writing English
than I suspect many around here would be at writing postings in the
native language of the poster.
I for one, do not know any Swedish...
All svenska jag kan har jag ldrt mig fren porr.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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