Discussion:
Which programming language would you like to see officially supported on VMS ?
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Simon Clubley
2020-01-24 13:13:59 UTC
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For the programming languages which are not currently available for VMS,
which of them would you like to see become available and officially
supported by VSI ?

For me, a modern scripting language such as Python, with integrated
VMS support built in, would top that list.

Yes, I know Python is available at the moment, but it's not officially
supported by HPE or VSI.

Are there any other scripting languages or compiled languages you
would like to see become available on VMS ?

I'm asking just in case there are languages out there with a hidden
underlying desire by their users to run on VMS that VSI or the rest
of the VMS community are not aware of.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2020-01-24 13:18:42 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
For the programming languages which are not currently available for VMS,
which of them would you like to see become available and officially
supported by VSI ?
Fortran. Full support of the Fortran95 standard (which was available on
Alpha) is an absolute minimum. There have been several revisions since
then. It would be nice not to be too out of date. Certainly C, since
it is so common.
Bill Gunshannon
2020-01-24 18:14:48 UTC
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Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Simon Clubley
For the programming languages which are not currently available for VMS,
which of them would you like to see become available and officially
supported by VSI ?
Fortran. Full support of the Fortran95 standard (which was available on
Alpha) is an absolute minimum. There have been several revisions since
then. It would be nice not to be too out of date. Certainly C, since
it is so common.
Well, I would have mentioned COBOL as well, but I kinda thought
the real standard languages like COBOL, Fortran and Pascal were
not in question. Sad that Ada isn't on the list.

bill
Simon Clubley
2020-01-24 19:01:27 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
Well, I would have mentioned COBOL as well, but I kinda thought
the real standard languages like COBOL, Fortran and Pascal were
not in question. Sad that Ada isn't on the list.
I was looking for languages which are not currently supported on VMS
but for which there might be a general interest in their use if they
became available on VMS.

I didn't mention Ada, because that's been discussed in the past and
we know that the situation with Ada on x86-64 VMS is "complicated"
(or words to that effect).

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
seasoned_geek
2020-01-24 20:47:14 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Simon Clubley
For the programming languages which are not currently available for VMS,
which of them would you like to see become available and officially
supported by VSI ?
Fortran. Full support of the Fortran95 standard (which was available on
Alpha) is an absolute minimum. There have been several revisions since
then. It would be nice not to be too out of date. Certainly C, since
it is so common.
Well, I would have mentioned COBOL as well, but I kinda thought
the real standard languages like COBOL, Fortran and Pascal were
not in question. Sad that Ada isn't on the list.
bill
Can we drop Pascal?

Ada at least had a purpose. I never used it but it had a purpose.

Get Cognos/IBM to port and support PowerHouse, the best 4GL ever created, along with the VMS specific menus, not the hacky HP-UX interface.

If Synergex won't port DIBOL to the new OpenVMS, then resurrect DIBOL.
Simon Clubley
2020-01-24 18:56:54 UTC
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Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Simon Clubley
For the programming languages which are not currently available for VMS,
which of them would you like to see become available and officially
supported by VSI ?
Fortran. Full support of the Fortran95 standard (which was available on
Alpha) is an absolute minimum. There have been several revisions since
then. It would be nice not to be too out of date. Certainly C, since
it is so common.
We already know that C and C++ are going to eventually get major updates
thanks to LLVM.

However, the Fortran support requirements on VMS are not as clear.

How much demand is there likely to be for the later Fortran standards
to be supported on VMS instead of making sure that the currently
supported Fortran standards continue to work on x86-64 VMS ?

IOW, is Fortran on VMS a stable or declining community or is it a
community which is actively looking for the later standards to be
supported on VMS ?

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Bob Gezelter
2020-01-24 13:36:24 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
For the programming languages which are not currently available for VMS,
which of them would you like to see become available and officially
supported by VSI ?
For me, a modern scripting language such as Python, with integrated
VMS support built in, would top that list.
Yes, I know Python is available at the moment, but it's not officially
supported by HPE or VSI.
Are there any other scripting languages or compiled languages you
would like to see become available on VMS ?
I'm asking just in case there are languages out there with a hidden
underlying desire by their users to run on VMS that VSI or the rest
of the VMS community are not aware of.
Simon.
--
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Simon,

WADR, HPE has removed itself from OpenVMS by transferring all OpenVMS business to VSI.

- Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com
Simon Clubley
2020-01-24 18:49:35 UTC
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Post by Bob Gezelter
Post by Simon Clubley
Yes, I know Python is available at the moment, but it's not officially
supported by HPE or VSI.
Are there any other scripting languages or compiled languages you
would like to see become available on VMS ?
I'm asking just in case there are languages out there with a hidden
underlying desire by their users to run on VMS that VSI or the rest
of the VMS community are not aware of.
Simon,
WADR, HPE has removed itself from OpenVMS by transferring all OpenVMS business to VSI.
Thank you Bob, but I am aware of HPE's plans for VMS and you can assume
that reading my message again will show that I was talking about current,
not future support. You should also be aware that as of a few months ago
HPE still had a VMS Engineering section (although I don't know what size
it is now given that it disappears in 11 months).

However: does VSI now have the access needed to directly apply
patches to HPE's version of VMS and then create and ship kits to
HPE (not VSI) customers without HPE VMS Engineering needing to
get involved ?

Your statement above implies that they do and if so, HPE VMS Engineering
might disappear before the end of this year (and the Hobbyist program
with it). If VSI does not have that level of access however, then HPE
will not have removed itself from VMS until the end of this year.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Ian Miller
2020-01-24 16:29:01 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
For the programming languages which are not currently available for VMS,
which of them would you like to see become available and officially
supported by VSI ?
For me, a modern scripting language such as Python, with integrated
VMS support built in, would top that list.
Yes, I know Python is available at the moment, but it's not officially
supported by HPE or VSI.
Are there any other scripting languages or compiled languages you
would like to see become available on VMS ?
I'm asking just in case there are languages out there with a hidden
underlying desire by their users to run on VMS that VSI or the rest
of the VMS community are not aware of.
Simon.
--
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
There is a port of lua for VSI OpenVMS which I would like to see expanded libraries for. Also a supported port of python 3 would be good too.
Robert A. Brooks
2020-01-24 16:30:33 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
For the programming languages which are not currently available for VMS,
which of them would you like to see become available and officially
supported by VSI ?
What do you mean by "...officially supported by VSI"?

When it comes to open source, there is a distinction between answering a question
and fixing a bug.
--
-- Rob
Craig A. Berry
2020-01-24 17:23:11 UTC
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Post by Robert A. Brooks
Post by Simon Clubley
For the programming languages which are not currently available for VMS,
which of them would you like to see become available and officially
supported by VSI ?
What do you mean by "...officially supported by VSI"?
When it comes to open source, there is a distinction between answering a question
and fixing a bug.
What all the Linux vendors do is fix the bugs reported to them and then
submit their changes back upstream. If it's security-related, they
coordinate their releases with the upstream security team's release of
patches to the source tree. Since they often ship older versions of
software that upstream no longer supports, it's common for them to
maintain backported patches for some time until they can get up-to-date.
seasoned_geek
2020-01-24 20:44:36 UTC
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Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Robert A. Brooks
Post by Simon Clubley
For the programming languages which are not currently available for VMS,
which of them would you like to see become available and officially
supported by VSI ?
What do you mean by "...officially supported by VSI"?
When it comes to open source, there is a distinction between answering a question
and fixing a bug.
What all the Linux vendors do is fix the bugs reported to them and then
submit their changes back upstream. If it's security-related, they
coordinate their releases with the upstream security team's release of
patches to the source tree. Since they often ship older versions of
software that upstream no longer supports, it's common for them to
maintain backported patches for some time until they can get up-to-date.
Actually, all the Linux "maintainers" do is close your bug telling YOU to report it up stream (clear and present violation of GDPR) or let it rot until they can close it as being against an unsupported version.
Simon Clubley
2020-01-24 19:28:48 UTC
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Post by Robert A. Brooks
Post by Simon Clubley
For the programming languages which are not currently available for VMS,
which of them would you like to see become available and officially
supported by VSI ?
What do you mean by "...officially supported by VSI"?
In the same way that HPE produced official HPE VMS kits for various open
source projects such as Apache, Perl and SSL.

You could log support calls against them as part of your support contract
and if you found VMS specific bugs or security issues, you could get them
fixed.

If the upstream vendors issued new releases for security fixes, HPE would
package the updated kit for VMS and then make it available for download.

The speed at which HPE did that over the last decade or so however left
a great deal to be desired from what I could see reported here (I had
stopped using the Internet related open source kits on VMS by that time
however so I have no direct experience over the last decade or so).
Post by Robert A. Brooks
When it comes to open source, there is a distinction between answering a question
and fixing a bug.
Officially supported in this case means responding to security issues
in general (both VMS specific and general security issues) and fixing
VMS specific bugs in the kit.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Carl Friedberg
2020-01-24 21:53:15 UTC
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Python 3.8 (with VMS extensions, and as many other extensions, such as
astropy, etc) and R would be good to have for many users.

On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 2:35 PM Simon Clubley via Info-vax <
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Robert A. Brooks
Post by Simon Clubley
For the programming languages which are not currently available for VMS,
which of them would you like to see become available and officially
supported by VSI ?
What do you mean by "...officially supported by VSI"?
In the same way that HPE produced official HPE VMS kits for various open
source projects such as Apache, Perl and SSL.
You could log support calls against them as part of your support contract
and if you found VMS specific bugs or security issues, you could get them
fixed.
If the upstream vendors issued new releases for security fixes, HPE would
package the updated kit for VMS and then make it available for download.
The speed at which HPE did that over the last decade or so however left
a great deal to be desired from what I could see reported here (I had
stopped using the Internet related open source kits on VMS by that time
however so I have no direct experience over the last decade or so).
Post by Robert A. Brooks
When it comes to open source, there is a distinction between answering a
question
Post by Robert A. Brooks
and fixing a bug.
Officially supported in this case means responding to security issues
in general (both VMS specific and general security issues) and fixing
VMS specific bugs in the kit.
Simon.
--
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
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Bill Gunshannon
2020-01-24 18:13:24 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
For the programming languages which are not currently available for VMS,
which of them would you like to see become available and officially
supported by VSI ?
For me, a modern scripting language such as Python, with integrated
VMS support built in, would top that list.
Yes, I know Python is available at the moment, but it's not officially
supported by HPE or VSI.
Are there any other scripting languages or compiled languages you
would like to see become available on VMS ?
I'm asking just in case there are languages out there with a hidden
underlying desire by their users to run on VMS that VSI or the rest
of the VMS community are not aware of.
How about R?

I would also say ANSI-M but it looks like even the VA is getting out of
that world.

bill
Simon Clubley
2020-01-24 19:03:27 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
How about R?
I don't know enough about R to form an opinion on that.

Is that something which might be of general interest to at least
a portion of the VMS world ?

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
o***@gmail.com
2020-01-24 19:14:48 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
How about R?
I would also say ANSI-M but it looks like even the VA is getting out of
that world.
MUMPS is an interesting beast; I know someone on their standards board.
V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
2020-01-24 18:31:35 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
For the programming languages which are not currently available for VMS,
which of them would you like to see become available and officially
supported by VSI ?
For me, a modern scripting language such as Python, with integrated
VMS support built in, would top that list.
Yes, I know Python is available at the moment, but it's not officially
supported by HPE or VSI.
Do those produce an executable?
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
Simon Clubley
2020-01-24 19:16:37 UTC
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Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
Post by Simon Clubley
For the programming languages which are not currently available for VMS,
which of them would you like to see become available and officially
supported by VSI ?
For me, a modern scripting language such as Python, with integrated
VMS support built in, would top that list.
Yes, I know Python is available at the moment, but it's not officially
supported by HPE or VSI.
Do those produce an executable?
Python can produce compiled bytecode files which can then be run directly
by the Python interpreter. This is bytecode however and not a normal
native executable.

There are tools which can produce standalone Python executables that can
be directly run but as far as I can see, they mostly work by packaging
the Python interpreter and the generated bytecode into a single executable
binary although there appears to be some work to generate proper compiled
executables from Python source code.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
seasoned_geek
2020-01-24 20:52:57 UTC
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If there is really going to be a legitimate C++ compiler the Qt core (not a language, but a largely used C++ API) should be ported.

Is Datatrieve going to make the cut to x86?

What about CDD? ACMS?? Kinda need CDD for ACMS, but thanks to GQ Bob, Oracle owns CDD.
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