Discussion:
Editors, was: Re: VT keyboard replacement
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Simon Clubley
2021-11-08 01:29:01 UTC
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Some editors use Ctrl+T to delete the next word, great, but it's awkward
- I need two hands for this - compared to a dedicated keypad key.
I use the EDT keypad in emacs and find it much more quicker and easier
than typing Ctrl-<this, that and the other>. :-)
Right. EDT is by far the most efficient editor. And it is much more
than just the EDT keypad.
How do you get EDT to show you where the starting brace in the
current section of code you are working on is (for example) ?

How do you get EDT to convert spaces to tabs in your code ?
(tabify in emacs, never checked to see if EVE can do it).

Can you do a rectangle select in EDT ?

Can you show more than one buffer on the screen at the same time
in EDT ?

Does EDT support programming language editing modes ? (I tend not to
use them, except for some special cases, but some people use them all
the time).

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Lawrence D’Oliveiro
2021-11-08 01:59:35 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
Does EDT support programming language editing modes ?
Or what about multi-file editing ... has it figured that out yet, I wonder?

(I don’t use the language modes either.)
alanfe...@gmail.com
2021-11-19 11:46:27 UTC
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Post by Lawrence D’Oliveiro
Post by Simon Clubley
Does EDT support programming language editing modes ?
Or what about multi-file editing ... has it figured that out yet, I wonder?
Yes, you can edit multiple files in the same session. You just need to put them in different buffers. But you can't show multiple files on the screen at the same time.

*incl sys$login:toc.com =toc

e.g.

You can switch between buffers, even going back to the same line you were on! Or you can specify the line number.

(EDT probably had this from its earliest days -- perhaps even day 1. No need to be "snitty" about it. But I'm not an EDT historian. I started using it c. 1985 and I'm pretty sure it had it then.)

$ ed login.com
1 $! Template login.com procedure for DECUServe users.
*incl toc.com =toc
*incl sys$login:tob.com =tob
*show buff
=TOB 1529 lines
TOC 1546 lines
MAIN 1* lines
PASTE No lines

*=main.

will take you back to buffer "main" and put the cursor on the line it was when you switched to a different buffer. (That's what the period does.) You can even define a key combo that does this. GOLD M is typical.

You can even edit the PASTE buffer!!! Yes, that's right. Not only can you cut and paste with EDT; you can actually edit its "clipboard", the PASTE buffer, as, being a buffer, is just another buffer!

To write a buffer to disk, go to that buffer with

=<buffer name>

and use the WRITE command:

*write temp.tmp

Wait, there's yet more! EDT can recognize . . . <drum roll, please . . . final loud drum note> . . . lowercase letters!!! What a surprise, eh?

There's even more. Check the manual.

[...]

AEF
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2021-11-08 05:27:46 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
Some editors use Ctrl+T to delete the next word, great, but it's awkward
- I need two hands for this - compared to a dedicated keypad key.
I use the EDT keypad in emacs and find it much more quicker and easier
than typing Ctrl-<this, that and the other>. :-)
Right. EDT is by far the most efficient editor. And it is much more
than just the EDT keypad.
How do you get EDT to show you where the starting brace in the
current section of code you are working on is (for example) ?
How do you get EDT to convert spaces to tabs in your code ?
(tabify in emacs, never checked to see if EVE can do it).
Can you do a rectangle select in EDT ?
Can you show more than one buffer on the screen at the same time
in EDT ?
Does EDT support programming language editing modes ? (I tend not to
use them, except for some special cases, but some people use them all
the time).
It is the most efficient, not the most powerful. :-)
Lawrence D’Oliveiro
2021-11-08 05:41:00 UTC
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It is the most efficient, not the most powerful. :-)
As in helping you to be the most productive?
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2021-11-08 08:59:32 UTC
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Post by Lawrence D’Oliveiro
It is the most efficient, not the most powerful. :-)
As in helping you to be the most productive?
Exactly.
Simon Clubley
2021-11-08 18:25:48 UTC
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Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Lawrence D’Oliveiro
It is the most efficient, not the most powerful. :-)
As in helping you to be the most productive?
Exactly.
How exactly ?

By today's standards, EDT's limited functionality makes it the
assembly language version of editors when compared to other editors
which are fully featured editors.

EDT can't even show more than one window on the screen at the same
time. How does that make EDT the most productive editor ?

Even EVE can do that, which makes even EVE much more productive than EDT.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Arne Vajhøj
2021-11-08 18:52:56 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Lawrence D’Oliveiro
It is the most efficient, not the most powerful. :-)
As in helping you to be the most productive?
Exactly.
How exactly ?
By today's standards, EDT's limited functionality makes it the
assembly language version of editors when compared to other editors
which are fully featured editors.
EDT can't even show more than one window on the screen at the same
time. How does that make EDT the most productive editor ?
Even EVE can do that, which makes even EVE much more productive than EDT.
EVE is mostly a super set of EDT functionality wise and EVE supports EDT
key mapping, so I don't see EDT as being more productive.

EDT probably use less memory than EVE. I suspect that EDT can do with
like 25-50 KB and EVE may require like 100-250 KB. But since memory
is bought by the GB today, then that is hardly an issue.

(note that a modern IDE requires like 256 MB - 2 GB of memory)

Arne
Chris Townley
2021-11-08 23:36:31 UTC
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EVE is mostly a super set of EDT functionality wise ...
Except it was never saddled with anything so clunky as a “current direction” mode ...
(note that a modern IDE requires like 256 MB - 2 GB of memory)
top reports that my Emacs instance is currently using around 87MB of “RES”(ident) RAM. This after continuously running for about 2½ weeks.
But then, Emacs is not an IDE. IDEs limit you to using their particular build systems, while Emacs doesn’t care what build system you want to use: whatever the command is to launch a build, you can bind it to a single custom keystroke.
Emacs - Eight Meg and continuously swapping

<g>
--
Chris
Lawrence D’Oliveiro
2021-11-09 01:38:55 UTC
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Post by Chris Townley
Emacs - Eight Meg and continuously swapping
<g>
Let me guess .. early 1990s?

Trying to figure out when that would still have had enough edge to be funny, before it started to get to the point where Roy from “The IT Crowd” would be asking “Are you from the past?” ...
Chris Townley
2021-11-09 02:21:00 UTC
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Post by Lawrence D’Oliveiro
Post by Chris Townley
Emacs - Eight Meg and continuously swapping
<g>
Let me guess .. early 1990s?
Trying to figure out when that would still have had enough edge to be funny, before it started to get to the point where Roy from “The IT Crowd” would be asking “Are you from the past?” ...
Late 80s
--
Chris
Arne Vajhøj
2021-11-09 00:31:12 UTC
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On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 7:53:04 AM UTC+13, Arne Vajhøj
EVE is mostly a super set of EDT functionality wise ...
Except it was never saddled with anything so clunky as a “current
direction” mode ...
????

EVE has direction.
But then, Emacs is not an IDE. IDEs limit you to using their
particular build systems, while Emacs doesn’t care what build system
you want to use: whatever the command is to launch a build, you can
bind it to a single custom keystroke.
????

Eclipse for Java supports its own build but also ant, maven and gradle.

Arne
Lawrence D’Oliveiro
2021-11-09 01:20:24 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 7:53:04 AM UTC+13, Arne Vajhøj
EVE is mostly a super set of EDT functionality wise ...
Except it was never saddled with anything so clunky as a “current
direction” mode ...
????
EVE has direction.
When I used it, it did not. It had separate commands for movement in forward versus backward directions. Just like any other editor -- except EDT.
Post by Arne Vajhøj
But then, Emacs is not an IDE. IDEs limit you to using their
particular build systems, while Emacs doesn’t care what build system
you want to use: whatever the command is to launch a build, you can
bind it to a single custom keystroke.
????
Eclipse for Java supports its own build but also ant, maven and gradle.
So you have a choice of a Java-based build system, a build system based on Java, or even a Java-building system for building Java programs!

What was that joke from “The Blues Brothers”, about offering both kinds of music, Country and Western?
alanfe...@gmail.com
2021-11-18 22:46:53 UTC
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Post by Lawrence D’Oliveiro
Post by Arne Vajhøj
On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 7:53:04 AM UTC+13, Arne Vajhøj
EVE is mostly a super set of EDT functionality wise ...
Except it was never saddled with anything so clunky as a “current
direction” mode ...
????
EVE has direction.
When I used it, it did not. It had separate commands for movement in forward versus backward directions. Just like any other editor -- except EDT.
Did you have a VT100? The arrow keys on their don't require separate direction keys.
If you have an LK201 (or whatever vt220 and up had) then you could use the Prev Screen and Next Screen buttons.

[...]

AEF
Dave Froble
2021-11-08 21:10:28 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Lawrence D’Oliveiro
It is the most efficient, not the most powerful. :-)
As in helping you to be the most productive?
Exactly.
How exactly ?
By today's standards, EDT's limited functionality makes it the
assembly language version of editors when compared to other editors
which are fully featured editors.
EDT can't even show more than one window on the screen at the same
time. How does that make EDT the most productive editor ?
Even EVE can do that, which makes even EVE much more productive than EDT.
Simon.
If it is all I need and use ....

Which part of that was not understood?
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Simon Clubley
2021-11-09 18:56:02 UTC
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Post by Dave Froble
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Lawrence D’Oliveiro
It is the most efficient, not the most powerful. :-)
As in helping you to be the most productive?
Exactly.
How exactly ?
By today's standards, EDT's limited functionality makes it the
assembly language version of editors when compared to other editors
which are fully featured editors.
EDT can't even show more than one window on the screen at the same
time. How does that make EDT the most productive editor ?
Even EVE can do that, which makes even EVE much more productive than EDT.
Simon.
If it is all I need and use ....
Which part of that was not understood?
The bit you missed above where Phillip claims EDT is the most productive
editor, even in the face of all the much more powerful alternatives. :-)

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Dave Froble
2021-11-10 00:22:53 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Lawrence D’Oliveiro
It is the most efficient, not the most powerful. :-)
As in helping you to be the most productive?
Exactly.
How exactly ?
By today's standards, EDT's limited functionality makes it the
assembly language version of editors when compared to other editors
which are fully featured editors.
EDT can't even show more than one window on the screen at the same
time. How does that make EDT the most productive editor ?
Even EVE can do that, which makes even EVE much more productive than EDT.
Simon.
If it is all I need and use ....
Which part of that was not understood?
The bit you missed above where Phillip claims EDT is the most productive
editor, even in the face of all the much more powerful alternatives. :-)
Simon.
If EDT is all I need and use, then it is the most productive for me.
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2021-11-09 05:42:58 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Lawrence D’Oliveiro
It is the most efficient, not the most powerful. :-)
As in helping you to be the most productive?
Exactly.
How exactly ?
By today's standards, EDT's limited functionality makes it the
assembly language version of editors when compared to other editors
which are fully featured editors.
EDT can't even show more than one window on the screen at the same
time. How does that make EDT the most productive editor ?
Even EVE can do that, which makes even EVE much more productive than EDT.
Even on really fast hardware, I am always annoyed with how slow the
cursor movement is with EVE. And then it reads in the whole huge file
even if I just want to edit the first few lines.
David Jones
2021-11-09 12:24:18 UTC
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Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Even on really fast hardware, I am always annoyed with how slow the
cursor movement is with EVE. And then it reads in the whole huge file
even if I just want to edit the first few lines.
When EVE first came out, the file load at startup was a big issue when memory was scarce.
Not some much a problem anymore, and searching for a string near the end of the file is
noticeably with TPU and EDT.
Arne Vajhøj
2021-11-09 13:34:06 UTC
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Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Lawrence D’Oliveiro
It is the most efficient, not the most powerful. :-)
As in helping you to be the most productive?
Exactly.
How exactly ?
By today's standards, EDT's limited functionality makes it the
assembly language version of editors when compared to other editors
which are fully featured editors.
EDT can't even show more than one window on the screen at the same
time. How does that make EDT the most productive editor ?
Even EVE can do that, which makes even EVE much more productive than EDT.
Even on really fast hardware, I am always annoyed with how slow the
cursor movement is with EVE. And then it reads in the whole huge file
even if I just want to edit the first few lines.
Yes.

But when it was loaded it was fast to go to the bottom unlike EDT
where it could take forever to.

Arne
Simon Clubley
2021-11-09 19:04:39 UTC
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Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Even on really fast hardware, I am always annoyed with how slow the
cursor movement is with EVE. And then it reads in the whole huge file
even if I just want to edit the first few lines.
I don't notice any slow cursor movement with EVE.

With large files, you are talking about something that might have been
a problem in the era of MicroVax II machines but it simply isn't a
problem these days. EVE is also one hell of a lot more efficient at
handling large files overall anyway because it doesn't need an EDT-style
workfile.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
alanfe...@gmail.com
2021-11-18 22:51:55 UTC
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[...]
Post by Simon Clubley
With large files, you are talking about something that might have been
a problem in the era of MicroVax II machines but it simply isn't a
problem these days. EVE is also one hell of a lot more efficient at
handling large files overall anyway because it doesn't need an EDT-style
workfile.
Simon.
You mean the journal file? With the journal file you can do a poor man's undo. Exit your editing session with QUIT/SAVE. Then open the .JOU file and remove the bottom line or more. Close it. Then open the original file adding /RECO and you've done undo!
Post by Simon Clubley
--
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
AEF
alanfe...@gmail.com
2021-11-19 09:52:34 UTC
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[...]
[...]
Post by Simon Clubley
workfile.
Simon.
You mean the journal file? With the journal file you can do a poor man's undo. Exit your editing session with QUIT/SAVE. Then >open the .JOU file and remove the bottom line or more. Close it. Then open the original file adding /RECO and you've done undo!
I probably should have written, "Then open the original file adding /RECO and you've un-done!"
Post by Simon Clubley
--
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
AEF
V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
2021-11-09 14:57:07 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Lawrence D’Oliveiro
It is the most efficient, not the most powerful. :-)
As in helping you to be the most productive?
Exactly.
How exactly ?
By today's standards, EDT's limited functionality makes it the
assembly language version of editors when compared to other editors
which are fully featured editors.
Where is the list of *today's standards* for editors?
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
Bill Gunshannon
2021-11-09 15:57:47 UTC
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Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
On 2021-11-08, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
On Monday, November 8, 2021 at 6:27:48 PM UTC+13, Phillip Helbig
It is the most efficient, not the most powerful. :-)
As in helping you to be the most productive?
Exactly.
How exactly ?
By today's standards, EDT's limited functionality makes it the
assembly language version of editors when compared to other editors
which are fully featured editors.
Where is the list of *today's standards* for editors?
"today's standard" does not imply a formal (ANSI/ISO) standard just
some relative vague general expectations.
It's called "de facto" and it has been around a lot longer than
"today".


bill
Dave Froble
2021-11-09 18:38:30 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Lawrence D’Oliveiro
It is the most efficient, not the most powerful. :-)
As in helping you to be the most productive?
Exactly.
How exactly ?
By today's standards, EDT's limited functionality makes it the
assembly language version of editors when compared to other editors
which are fully featured editors.
Where is the list of *today's standards* for editors?
"today's standard" does not imply a formal (ANSI/ISO) standard just
some relative vague general expectations.
It's called "de facto" and it has been around a lot longer than
"today".
Is your "de facto" the same as my "de facto"? I bet not.
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Bill Gunshannon
2021-11-09 19:08:01 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
On 2021-11-08, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
On Monday, November 8, 2021 at 6:27:48 PM UTC+13, Phillip Helbig
It is the most efficient, not the most powerful. :-)
As in helping you to be the most productive?
Exactly.
How exactly ?
By today's standards, EDT's limited functionality makes it the
assembly language version of editors when compared to other editors
which are fully featured editors.
Where is the list of *today's standards* for editors?
"today's standard" does not imply a formal (ANSI/ISO) standard just
some relative vague general expectations.
It's called "de facto" and it has been around a lot longer than
"today".
Is your "de facto" the same as my "de facto"?  I bet not.
Probably not, but we don't get to set it anyway, the industryh
does. :-)

Personally, my favorite editor depends entirely on what system
I am working on. On RSTS it's EDT. On Unix it's vi. And, on
any system that supports it, MicroEMACS. VMS I would have to say
LSE.

bill
Bill Gunshannon
2021-11-09 19:26:55 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
Post by Simon Clubley
By today's standards, EDT's limited functionality makes it the
assembly language version of editors when compared to other editors
which are fully featured editors.
Where is the list of *today's standards* for editors?
"today's standard" does not imply a formal (ANSI/ISO) standard just
some relative vague general expectations.
It's called "de facto" and it has been around a lot longer than
"today".
Is your "de facto" the same as my "de facto"?  I bet not.
Probably not, but we don't get to set it anyway, the industryh
does.  :-)
Personally, my favorite editor depends entirely on what system
I am working on.  On RSTS it's EDT.  On Unix it's vi.  And, on
any system that supports it, MicroEMACS. VMS I would have to say
LSE.
It is worth nothing that it is increasingly common that code
get actual written on a different platform than destination
platform.
I've done that for decades. Especially with machines with really
poor editors. Like OS9 and TRSDOS. :-)

bill
Bill Gunshannon
2021-11-09 20:09:50 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
Personally, my favorite editor depends entirely on what system
I am working on.  On RSTS it's EDT.  On Unix it's vi.  And, on
any system that supports it, MicroEMACS. VMS I would have to say
LSE.
Which version of MicroEMACS?
Different versions on different machines. Been a long time and I really
don't remember version numbers anyway.
It is available for VMS. It was the first
editor running on VMS/Alpha and x86.
I'm sure it was but VMS had suitable editors at the time I was using it.
I do find it hard to believe it was the first editor on VMS/Alpha. No
EDT?

And, anyway, real emacs has been available on VMS pretty much from the
beginning.

bill
Robert A. Brooks
2021-11-09 20:24:23 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Personally, my favorite editor depends entirely on what system
I am working on.  On RSTS it's EDT.  On Unix it's vi.  And, on
any system that supports it, MicroEMACS. VMS I would have to say
LSE.
Which version of MicroEMACS?
Different versions on different machines. Been a long time and I really
don't remember version numbers anyway.
                             It is available for VMS. It was the first
editor running on VMS/Alpha and x86.
I'm sure it was but VMS had suitable editors at the time I was using it.
I do find it hard to believe it was the first editor on VMS/Alpha.  No
EDT?
If Hartmut states it, it's almost certainly correct; he doesn't make
unsubstantiated claims.
--
-- Rob
Arne Vajhøj
2021-11-10 00:18:48 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
And, anyway, real emacs has been available on VMS pretty much from the
beginning.
I don't think beginning is the problem more the end.

As far as I can see then for GNU Emacs then:
- current version is 27
- last version supposed to support VMS was 22
- supposedly version 21 was actually ported to VMS
- Freeware CD seems to have version 19

Arne
hb
2021-11-10 09:47:49 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
And, anyway, real emacs has been available on VMS pretty much from the
beginning.
I don't think beginning is the problem more the end.
- current version is 27
- last version supposed to support VMS was 22
- supposedly version 21 was actually ported to VMS
- Freeware CD seems to have version 19
Arne
Emacs version 21.2 is available for VMS on VAX, Alpha and IA64. At least
one of the freeware CDs has the sources for this version.

I have local copies of the sources, which I used to build these
versions. I made the sources available here on c.o.v. They contain a few
minor changes/fixes. I didn't try to create a version for x86. As far
as I remember, there is a tool generated during the build to be used in
the build and that does not work out of the box in a cross build
environment. I expect that the sources used to build the Alpha version
will work for x86 as well. If I have time ...
Arne Vajhøj
2021-11-10 13:08:00 UTC
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Post by hb
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bill Gunshannon
And, anyway, real emacs has been available on VMS pretty much from the
beginning.
I don't think beginning is the problem more the end.
- current version is 27
- last version supposed to support VMS was 22
- supposedly version 21 was actually ported to VMS
- Freeware CD seems to have version 19
Emacs version 21.2 is available for VMS on VAX, Alpha and IA64. At least
one of the freeware CDs has the sources for this version.
After checking the latest freeware CD I found it:

https://www.digiater.nl/openvms/freeware/v80/emacs/

21.2

Arne
Lawrence D’Oliveiro
2021-11-10 22:09:56 UTC
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Post by hb
Emacs version 21.2 is available for VMS on VAX, Alpha and IA64. At least
one of the freeware CDs has the sources for this version.
Just a note that Emacs is not freeware <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeware>, it is Free software <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software>.
Arne Vajhøj
2021-11-10 22:46:16 UTC
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Post by Lawrence D’Oliveiro
Post by hb
Emacs version 21.2 is available for VMS on VAX, Alpha and IA64. At least
one of the freeware CDs has the sources for this version.
Just a note that Emacs is not freeware <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeware>, it is Free software <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software>.
Yes.

But it is on a "freeware CD".

Arne
Dave Froble
2021-11-12 00:56:36 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Lawrence D’Oliveiro
Post by hb
Emacs version 21.2 is available for VMS on VAX, Alpha and IA64. At least
one of the freeware CDs has the sources for this version.
Just a note that Emacs is not freeware
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeware>, it is Free software
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software>.
Yes.
But it is on a "freeware CD".
Arne
First, you're arguing what is likely semantics. You're also being a bit picky
on definitions.

I do believe that the DEC freeware stuff was/is software that anyone can use,
ie; free, or, free to use.

I just can't believe that you're making an issue of this.
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Lawrence D’Oliveiro
2021-11-12 01:33:18 UTC
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Post by Dave Froble
First, you're arguing what is likely semantics.
Guess what “semantics” means ... <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/semantics>
Post by Dave Froble
You're also being a bit picky on definitions.
Think of it as self-defence. Copyright is an inherently picky issue.
Craig A. Berry
2021-11-12 01:53:38 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Lawrence D’Oliveiro
Post by hb
Emacs version 21.2 is available for VMS on VAX, Alpha and IA64. At least
one of the freeware CDs has the sources for this version.
Just a note that Emacs is not freeware <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeware>,
it is Free software <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software>.
<
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Yes.
But it is on a "freeware CD".
So what is Free software doing on a freeware CD?
The same reason almond milk is in the dairy section at the grocery store
-- it's the place where stuff like that has always been found since the
time when there was only one kind of stuff. There has not been a new
freeware CD in quite a few years and no one calls open source freeware
anymore or releases software on CDs. But the old releases have some good
software under a variety of licenses, which were always carefully
included when available. So stop trying to pick a fight with people who
were volunteering their time to help other people give away software
under whatever terms were considered appropriate at the time.
Stephen Hoffman
2021-11-12 03:35:28 UTC
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...it's the place where stuff like that has always been found since the
time when there was only one kind of stuff. There has not been a new
freeware CD in quite a few years and no one calls open source freeware
anymore or releases software on CDs. But the old releases have some
good software under a variety of licenses, which were always carefully
included when available. So stop trying to pick a fight with people
who were volunteering their time to help other people give away
software under whatever terms were considered appropriate at the time.
OpenVMS Freeware History, Errata:

First Freeware distro was around 1995; roughly a quarter-century ago.
Most recent (and possibly the last?) Freeware distro was V8, shipped
with OpenVMS V8.3.
Mix of GPL, BSD, MIT, and various other licenses, generally with the
source code included, and with binaries for various DEC closed-source
and/or proprietary apps and tools.
It was also used as an archive for some older DEC documentation
including for DECnet, and some other materials.
The pricing (free) was the goal for all eight of the Freeware distributions.
I don't know who came up with the Freeware name, nor how DEC management
was convinced to spend the money on the media and distribution costs.
Unrelated app packages from other nearby parts of DEC included the Open
Source Tools and the Internet Products Suite.
Among the more memorable mastering moments: a text editor included on
the Freeware was flagged around concerns around export controls
compliance for munitions, though was found to be in compliance.
Whoever might ship a Freeware V10.0 gets to figure out how to rework
some of the names and labels. See the [Freeware] directory, etc.



VSI Freeware website: https://vmssoftware.com/community/freeware/



As for the Freeware name, this from the local 2021-era dictionary:

Freeware
noun
Software that is available free of charge.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
Lawrence D’Oliveiro
2021-11-11 21:55:27 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Lawrence D’Oliveiro
Post by hb
Emacs version 21.2 is available for VMS on VAX, Alpha and IA64. At least
one of the freeware CDs has the sources for this version.
Just a note that Emacs is not freeware <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeware>,
it is Free software <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software>.
<
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Yes.
But it is on a "freeware CD".
So what is Free software doing on a freeware CD?
Arne Vajhøj
2021-11-12 00:25:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Lawrence D’Oliveiro
Post by hb
Emacs version 21.2 is available for VMS on VAX, Alpha and IA64. At least
one of the freeware CDs has the sources for this version.
Just a note that Emacs is not freeware <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeware>,
it is Free software <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software>.
<
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Yes.
But it is on a "freeware CD".
So what is Free software doing on a freeware CD?
Because these particular software is both free as in free speech
and free as in free beer.

Click on the first of your own link and go down to the Venn diagram
in the definition section.

Arne
Dave Froble
2021-11-10 00:24:46 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
Post by Simon Clubley
By today's standards, EDT's limited functionality makes it the
assembly language version of editors when compared to other editors
which are fully featured editors.
Where is the list of *today's standards* for editors?
"today's standard" does not imply a formal (ANSI/ISO) standard just
some relative vague general expectations.
It's called "de facto" and it has been around a lot longer than
"today".
Is your "de facto" the same as my "de facto"? I bet not.
Probably not, but we don't get to set it anyway, the industryh
does. :-)
Personally, my favorite editor depends entirely on what system
I am working on. On RSTS it's EDT. On Unix it's vi. And, on
any system that supports it, MicroEMACS. VMS I would have to say
LSE.
It is worth nothing that it is increasingly common that code
get actual written on a different platform than destination
platform.
Arne
Most definitely not here!
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Slo
2021-11-09 17:25:45 UTC
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- GUI
- standard menus with at least File, Edit and Help in the menu bar
- at least Open, Save, Save As and Exit in the File menu
- at least Copy, Cut, Paste, Search and Replace in the Edit menu
- common shortcuts CTRL/A, CTRL/C, CTRL/X and CTRL/V
- ability to mark blocks with mouse
- certain edit function available via right click
- ability to have multiple files open
- ability to show multiple buffers simultaneously
- some language specific color highlighting
- some smart indenting
For me, the most important is missing from this list:
1. Infinite UNDO!!!
2. Automation via macro creation and execution (1 or N times, of course)
3. ...
Dave Froble
2021-11-09 18:29:27 UTC
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Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Lawrence D’Oliveiro
It is the most efficient, not the most powerful. :-)
As in helping you to be the most productive?
Exactly.
How exactly ?
By today's standards, EDT's limited functionality makes it the
assembly language version of editors when compared to other editors
which are fully featured editors.
Where is the list of *today's standards* for editors?
Now Brian, you know that a standard is what Simon says it is ...
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
2021-11-10 01:02:55 UTC
Reply
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Post by Dave Froble
Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Lawrence D’Oliveiro
It is the most efficient, not the most powerful. :-)
As in helping you to be the most productive?
Exactly.
How exactly ?
By today's standards, EDT's limited functionality makes it the
assembly language version of editors when compared to other editors
which are fully featured editors.
Where is the list of *today's standards* for editors?
Now Brian, you know that a standard is what Simon says it is ...
I don't play Simon Says at my age.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
Dave Froble
2021-11-09 18:37:06 UTC
Reply
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Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Lawrence D’Oliveiro
It is the most efficient, not the most powerful. :-)
As in helping you to be the most productive?
Exactly.
How exactly ?
By today's standards, EDT's limited functionality makes it the
assembly language version of editors when compared to other editors
which are fully featured editors.
Where is the list of *today's standards* for editors?
"today's standard" does not imply a formal (ANSI/ISO) standard just
some relative vague general expectations.
What is the general expectations from an editor today?
- GUI
- standard menus with at least File, Edit and Help in the menu bar
- at least Open, Save, Save As and Exit in the File menu
- at least Copy, Cut, Paste, Search and Replace in the Edit menu
- common shortcuts CTRL/A, CTRL/C, CTRL/X and CTRL/V
- ability to mark blocks with mouse
- certain edit function available via right click
- ability to have multiple files open
- ability to show multiple buffers simultaneously
- some language specific color highlighting
- some smart indenting
In other words, WEENDOZE ...

Perhaps my usage is too focused. When I think of text editor, I think of
working on programs. Basic, Macro-32, and (hawk, spit, gag) C. Maybe some DCL.

I'm sure there can be other uses and my focus is too narrow. But for what I
use EDT on VMS, it is what I listed above. Others may have different needs.
If any of that is missing then I think eyebrows will be raised.
Not here. My eyebrows are raised because we're talking about this.
Several of these are just conventions. But it is conventions that
ensures that you can open an editor that you have never used
before and do some basic editing because the basic stuff is the
same.
Good way to make mistakes ...
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Arne Vajhøj
2021-11-09 19:11:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Froble
What is the general expectations from an editor today?
- GUI
- standard menus with at least File, Edit and Help in the menu bar
- at least Open, Save, Save As and Exit in the File menu
- at least Copy, Cut, Paste, Search and Replace in the Edit menu
- common shortcuts CTRL/A, CTRL/C, CTRL/X and CTRL/V
- ability to mark blocks with mouse
- certain edit function available via right click
- ability to have multiple files open
- ability to show multiple buffers simultaneously
- some language specific color highlighting
- some smart indenting
In other words, WEENDOZE ...
There are a lot of editors available on Windows that provide that.

But it is not specific for Windows. Linux editors will be the same.
I suspect that macOS editors will be the same. Heck even VMS GUI editors
will behave somewhat like this.
Post by Dave Froble
Perhaps my usage is too focused.  When I think of text editor, I think of
working on programs.  Basic, Macro-32, and (hawk, spit, gag) C.  Maybe
some DCL.
I'm sure there can be other uses and my focus is too narrow.  But for
what I
use EDT on VMS, it is what I listed above.  Others may have different
needs.
The above is what most will use for light code editing.

For heavy code editing most will switch to a full blown IDE and
add features like:
- integration with source control
- integration with build system
- integration with debugger
- integration with help for programming language and RTL
- refactoring support
- suggestions as you write

But unless one work for a company with strict tool policies then one can
always pick the tool that one prefer.

If you like EDT then you just use EDT.

Arne
Lawrence D’Oliveiro
2021-11-09 21:26:26 UTC
Reply
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Post by Dave Froble
In other words, WEENDOZE ...
Interesting to note that, since most business-based apps run in the cloud these days, and the cloud is predominantly Linux, that is where the developers are going, too. This is why Microsoft introduced WSL (Linux-on-Windows, either emulated -- WSL 1.0 -- or genuine Linux -- WSL 2.0), to try to stem the flow of desertions.
V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
2021-11-10 01:07:00 UTC
Reply
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Post by Dave Froble
Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Lawrence D’Oliveiro
It is the most efficient, not the most powerful. :-)
As in helping you to be the most productive?
Exactly.
How exactly ?
By today's standards, EDT's limited functionality makes it the
assembly language version of editors when compared to other editors
which are fully featured editors.
Where is the list of *today's standards* for editors?
"today's standard" does not imply a formal (ANSI/ISO) standard just
some relative vague general expectations.
What is the general expectations from an editor today?
- GUI
- standard menus with at least File, Edit and Help in the menu bar
- at least Open, Save, Save As and Exit in the File menu
- at least Copy, Cut, Paste, Search and Replace in the Edit menu
- common shortcuts CTRL/A, CTRL/C, CTRL/X and CTRL/V
- ability to mark blocks with mouse
- certain edit function available via right click
- ability to have multiple files open
- ability to show multiple buffers simultaneously
- some language specific color highlighting
- some smart indenting
In other words, WEENDOZE ...
Gack, I just vomited a bit into my mouth.
Post by Dave Froble
Perhaps my usage is too focused. When I think of text editor, I think of
working on programs. Basic, Macro-32, and (hawk, spit, gag) C. Maybe some DCL.
I'm sure there can be other uses and my focus is too narrow. But for what I
use EDT on VMS, it is what I listed above. Others may have different needs.
If any of that is missing then I think eyebrows will be raised.
Not here. My eyebrows are raised because we're talking about this.
Several of these are just conventions. But it is conventions that
ensures that you can open an editor that you have never used
before and do some basic editing because the basic stuff is the
same.
Good way to make mistakes ...
When 'vi' has an updated set of these WEENDOZE "features", I may, then, consider
the need for them in EDT.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2021-11-10 08:31:01 UTC
Reply
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Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
Post by Dave Froble
In other words, WEENDOZE ...
Gack, I just vomited a bit into my mouth.
Better than vomiting a byte. :-)
V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
2021-11-10 18:01:07 UTC
Reply
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Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
Post by Dave Froble
In other words, WEENDOZE ...
Gack, I just vomited a bit into my mouth.
Better than vomiting a byte. :-)
LOL.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
Lawrence D’Oliveiro
2021-11-09 21:21:54 UTC
Reply
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Brace and bracket matching.
What about indentation matching?

I write a lot of Python code, and as you may know, that eschews statement brackets in favour of using indentation to indicate nesting level. So while commands for jumping between matching bracketing symbols are still useful within expressions, they are less so for navigating around compound statements.

Any editor you know of that has built-in commands for easing that? Even Emacs didn’t (that I know of), so I had to define my own.
Simon Clubley
2021-11-10 18:37:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D’Oliveiro
Brace and bracket matching.
What about indentation matching?
I write a lot of Python code, and as you may know, that eschews statement brackets in favour of using indentation to indicate nesting level. So while commands for jumping between matching bracketing symbols are still useful within expressions, they are less so for navigating around compound statements.
Any editor you know of that has built-in commands for easing that? Even Emacs didn?t (that I know of), so I had to define my own.
That's the kind of thing that ends up in a language mode in Emacs.

I've just had a quick look around and found this:

https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/PythonProgrammingInEmacs

No idea if it's any good for you.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Lawrence D’Oliveiro
2021-11-10 22:15:58 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
That's the kind of thing that ends up in a language mode in Emacs.
Which I prefer to avoid.
Post by Simon Clubley
https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/PythonProgrammingInEmacs
No idea if it's any good for you.
Just a note that I write my Python code perhaps a little differently from how most people do it. I put in “#end” comments to mark the end of compound statements, e.g.

    @classmethod
    def create(celf, **kwargs) :
        "creates a new FontOptions object. See FontOptions.props for valid arg keywords."
        leftover = set(kwargs.keys()) - set(FontOptions.props)
        if len(leftover) != 0 :
            raise TypeError("unexpected arguments %s" % ", ".join(leftover))
        #end if
        result = celf()
        for k in celf.props :
            if k in kwargs :
                setattr(result, k, kwargs[k])
            #end if
        #end for
        return \
            result
    #end create

That way, jumping between lines with the same indent conveniently takes you to the start or end of
alanfe...@gmail.com
2021-11-18 22:44:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Lawrence D’Oliveiro
It is the most efficient, not the most powerful. :-)
As in helping you to be the most productive?
Exactly.
How exactly ?
By today's standards, EDT's limited functionality makes it the
assembly language version of editors when compared to other editors
which are fully featured editors.
EDT can't even show more than one window on the screen at the same
time. How does that make EDT the most productive editor ?
Even EVE can do that, which makes even EVE much more productive than EDT.
Simon.
Depends on the task. Use the right tool for the job. Don't hire a robot to open a jar.
Post by Simon Clubley
--
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
alanfe...@gmail.com
2021-11-19 11:48:22 UTC
Reply
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Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Lawrence D’Oliveiro
It is the most efficient, not the most powerful. :-)
As in helping you to be the most productive?
Exactly.
How exactly ?
By today's standards, EDT's limited functionality makes it the
assembly language version of editors when compared to other editors
which are fully featured editors.
EDT can't even show more than one window on the screen at the same
time. How does that make EDT the most productive editor ?
Even EVE can do that, which makes even EVE much more productive than EDT.
Not when you are compiling and it aborts at line 1. Not when you need SET NOTRUNCATE.

Features and capabilities? On net, EVE wins. More productive? Depends what you want to do.
Post by Simon Clubley
Simon.
AEF
alanfe...@gmail.com
2021-11-18 22:42:49 UTC
Reply
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Post by Lawrence D’Oliveiro
It is the most efficient, not the most powerful. :-)
As in helping you to be the most productive?
It depends on your task. Use the right tool for the job.
alanfe...@gmail.com
2021-11-17 20:36:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Some editors use Ctrl+T to delete the next word, great, but it's awkward
- I need two hands for this - compared to a dedicated keypad key.
I use the EDT keypad in emacs and find it much more quicker and easier
than typing Ctrl-<this, that and the other>. :-)
Right. EDT is by far the most efficient editor. And it is much more
than just the EDT keypad.
How do you get EDT to show you where the starting brace in the
current section of code you are working on is (for example) ?
Search backwards for a '{' ?
Post by Simon Clubley
How do you get EDT to convert spaces to tabs in your code ?
(tabify in emacs, never checked to see if EVE can do it).
IDK. I'll get back to you on that. Might be able to write a macro that does it.
Post by Simon Clubley
Can you do a rectangle select in EDT ?
Maybe with a macro. I use EVE on those rare instances when I need it. I also like the overstrike mode in EVE on those few instances when I need it.
Post by Simon Clubley
Can you show more than one buffer on the screen at the same time
in EDT ?
Sure. Open more terminal sessions on your workstation! Use your workstation's copy and paste! (~_^)

Can your favorite editor let you define keys without compiling a huge section file? Can you easily look up what any given key combo does? Esp. when done by learn mode? Just asking.

<Sigh>. Another editor war.

Use your favorite. Use the right tool for the job. Different strokes for different folks. Each has its pros and cons.
Post by Simon Clubley
Does EDT support programming language editing modes ? (I tend not to
use them, except for some special cases, but some people use them all
the time).
I doubt it.
Post by Simon Clubley
Simon.
--
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
AEF
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2021-11-17 20:41:09 UTC
Reply
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Post by Simon Clubley
How do you get EDT to convert spaces to tabs in your code ?
*s| | |w

The first "invisible" parameter is a tab. The second is three spaces;
insert however many you like.
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2021-11-18 13:05:53 UTC
Reply
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Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Simon Clubley
How do you get EDT to convert spaces to tabs in your code ?
*s| | |w
The first "invisible" parameter is a tab. The second is three spaces;
insert however many you like.
Sorry, backwards! Correct is

*s| | |w

:-)
Simon Clubley
2021-11-18 18:44:04 UTC
Reply
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Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Simon Clubley
How do you get EDT to convert spaces to tabs in your code ?
*s| | |w
The first "invisible" parameter is a tab. The second is three spaces;
insert however many you like.
Sorry, backwards! Correct is
*s| | |w
Still no better. The tabify command in emacs converts spaces to tabs
so that they are aligned on tab boundaries.

That means, in a document, the first line might have 3 spaces replaced
by a tab, the second line might have 8 spaces converted to a tab, and
the third line might convert the first 2 spaces to a tab while leaving
the third space on that line as a space character.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2021-11-18 19:44:55 UTC
Reply
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Post by Simon Clubley
Still no better. The tabify command in emacs converts spaces to tabs
so that they are aligned on tab boundaries.
That means, in a document, the first line might have 3 spaces replaced
by a tab, the second line might have 8 spaces converted to a tab, and
the third line might convert the first 2 spaces to a tab while leaving
the third space on that line as a space character.
OK. I could probably do it with an EDT macro, but I have never wanted
to commit spaces to tabs. :-|
Bob Eager
2021-11-17 20:58:19 UTC
Reply
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Post by ***@gmail.com
How do you get EDT to show you where the starting brace in the current
section of code you are working on is (for example) ?
Search backwards for a '{' ?
It's a search for the *matching* { - which might be several back. Used
when you've left one out (usually a }) and you can't see where.
Post by ***@gmail.com
Can you show more than one buffer on the screen at the same time in EDT
?
Sure. Open more terminal sessions on your workstation! Use your
workstation's copy and paste! (~_^)
But splitting the screen to show more than one buffer?
Post by ***@gmail.com
Does EDT support programming language editing modes ? (I tend not to
use them, except for some special cases, but some people use them all
the time).
I doubt it.
It doesn't.
--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor
alanfe...@gmail.com
2021-11-18 09:18:56 UTC
Reply
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Post by Bob Eager
Post by ***@gmail.com
How do you get EDT to show you where the starting brace in the current
section of code you are working on is (for example) ?
Search backwards for a '{' ?
It's a search for the *matching* { - which might be several back. Used
when you've left one out (usually a }) and you can't see where.
Well, you weren't specific enough.

I actually like Notepad++ for this. I had that at my last job. I have BBEdit now, and it does it too, but it's too quick. Well, I don't write code now or when I had Notepad++, but parentheses come up now and then and I can see it work during those exciting moments.
Post by Bob Eager
Post by ***@gmail.com
Can you show more than one buffer on the screen at the same time in EDT
?
Sure. Open more terminal sessions on your workstation! Use your
workstation's copy and paste! (~_^)
But splitting the screen to show more than one buffer?
You missed the emoticon.
Post by Bob Eager
Post by ***@gmail.com
Does EDT support programming language editing modes ? (I tend not to
use them, except for some special cases, but some people use them all
the time).
I doubt it.
It doesn't.
Got it! (^_^) I was right!!!

Hey, the last programming I did was in graduate school c. 1985-1990. And it was FORTRAN. We didn't have no stinkin' braces! (^_^)

I've also done a lot of DCL over the years. And I had a multi-year hiatus from it. But I've returned to it to refresh my TO.COM program (command procedure), as the one on the freeware site is way out of date and the download link is broken, to boot.

I did start working my way through a book on c during quiet moments at a previous job, but that was long ago!
Post by Bob Eager
--
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor
AEF
Dave Froble
2021-11-17 23:16:13 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
How do you get EDT to convert spaces to tabs in your code ?
(tabify in emacs, never checked to see if EVE can do it).
I don't. I write my programs the way I want them to be, and stay.

If you don't make a problem, then you don't have to fix it.
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
alanfe...@gmail.com
2021-11-18 22:41:15 UTC
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Post by ***@gmail.com
Can your favorite editor let you define keys without compiling a huge
section file? Can you easily look up what any given key combo does? Esp.
when done by learn mode? Just asking.
I have already answered your first question (answer is yes) and posted
EVE examples for you to try.
I didn't see any such post. Also my other problem with compiling things in EVE is that I once got "Compilation aborted on line 1." Line 1!!! How am I supposed to debug something with a msg. like that? (My changed line of code was well past line 1.)

AGAIN: Every time I try EVE there's a problem. At remote labs it didn't work _at all_ without a lot of fuss playing with terminal settings and whatnot. With EDT I don't have such problems. I don't have to wait half a minute to open a huge file just to change the first few lines like I do with EVE. EDT works fine for me. If you need a more powerful editor, fine! I'm not stopping you. I don't need multiple buffers on the screen at the same time in the same session. I don't need all that scripting. I just want to edit some simple DCL. OK? I'm a lowly ex-physicist who wrote a lot of stuff in FORTRAN. I've inspected Pascal code, started learning c, and dabbled a little in existing perl scripts. That's it! I'm not a professional coder! For those who are, use a more powerful editor. I'm okay with that!!!

One time both EDT and EVE failed me! I needed lines longer than 255 chars, but also SET NO TRUNCATE. Neither editor has both. So I had to struggle to get the task done.

The only times I need EVE is for overstrike mode and box editing. The rest of the time I like EDT, esp. now that it is not limited to 22 lines. (Actually, there may be other rare times, like wildcard searches maybe, but it's been a long, long time!)
Someone else has already answered your second question. I don't know if
that includes learn sequences, but I have _never_ needed to see the learn
sequence that I have just entered as I don't care about it after the end
of the current session.
I didn't see that post either. And I _have_ needed to see saved learn sequences, and it appears you cannot.
Sorry I missed those posts. I'll take another look. (I'm using Google groups, not the best choice, but it's free.)
BTW, EVE isn't my favourite editor. It's just that its a lot more powerful
and productive to use on VMS than trying to use EDT. Emacs is an even more
powerful editor however.
Simon.
emacs is a finger killer. Most things cannot be done without awkward double double-key commands with Ctrl and Meta. And what the hell is Meta anyway? I'm guessing Esc.

Look. For the umpteenth time, I admit other editors are more powerful. And for the umpteenth time I said that for me it's like using a blow torch to light a candle. That powerful stuff just gets in my way and I'd have to learn it. I haven't done anything in VMS (OpenVMS for future deep-dive searches) for years and only want to update and fix bugs in my TO.COM DCL command procedure, as the current one on the main VSI Freeware page is out of date and the download link is broken. And maybe add a couple of other very small, but useful ones.

I asked in another thread for release notes for the EDT update. I answered some questions about EDT. I did not intend to start an editor war. I just wanted to see the release notes in case I'm missing something more. Oh, the original goal was to find the release notes for the SET DEFAULT fix. Turns out I found the release notes that _mentions_ the problem, and it also gives an example of how SHOW DEFAULT is broken, which still is.

I'm sorry I missed those posts. I'll look again.
--
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Distant things may be smaller than they appear. I had this experience once driving from the College Park, MD, area to Dulles airport. There was a polyhedral mushroom-shaped building in the distance. It looked huge! When you finally reach it it looks like maybe 1/3 or 1/2 of what you expected to see.

Also, distant things that fill a window appear larger than when you move closer to the window.

Then there's the moon effect!

AEF
Tad Winters
2021-11-20 03:44:16 UTC
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Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by ***@gmail.com
Can your favorite editor let you define keys without compiling a huge
section file? Can you easily look up what any given key combo does? Esp.
when done by learn mode? Just asking.
I have already answered your first question (answer is yes) and posted
EVE examples for you to try.
I didn't see any such post. Also my other problem with compiling things in EVE is that I once got "Compilation aborted on line 1." Line 1!!! How am I supposed to debug something with a msg. like that? (My changed line of code was well past line 1.)
AGAIN: Every time I try EVE there's a problem. At remote labs it didn't work _at all_ without a lot of fuss playing with terminal settings and whatnot. With EDT I don't have such problems. I don't have to wait half a minute to open a huge file just to change the first few lines like I do with EVE. EDT works fine for me. If you need a more powerful editor, fine! I'm not stopping you. I don't need multiple buffers on the screen at the same time in the same session. I don't need all that scripting. I just want to edit some simple DCL. OK? I'm a lowly ex-physicist who wrote a lot of stuff in FORTRAN. I've inspected Pascal code, started learning c, and dabbled a little in existing perl scripts. That's it! I'm not a professional coder! For those who are, use a more powerful editor. I'm okay with that!!!
One time both EDT and EVE failed me! I needed lines longer than 255 chars, but also SET NO TRUNCATE. Neither editor has both. So I had to struggle to get the task done.
The only times I need EVE is for overstrike mode and box editing. The rest of the time I like EDT, esp. now that it is not limited to 22 lines. (Actually, there may be other rare times, like wildcard searches maybe, but it's been a long, long time!)
Many times I've used EVE to edit files whose records are 2000+
characters. I never had problems. The system was running at least VMS
V5.5, but maybe V6.2. On what version of VMS did you last use EVE?

<<snip>>
Post by ***@gmail.com
AEF
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http://rbnsn.com/mailman/listinfo/info-vax_rbnsn.com
alanfe...@gmail.com
2021-11-21 09:32:00 UTC
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[...]
Post by Tad Winters
Post by ***@gmail.com
AGAIN: Every time I try EVE there's a problem. At remote labs it didn't work _at all_ without a lot of fuss playing with terminal settings and whatnot. With EDT I don't have such problems. I don't have to wait half a minute to open a huge file just to change the first few lines like I do with EVE. EDT works fine for me. If you need a more powerful editor, fine! I'm not stopping you. I don't need multiple buffers on the screen at the same time in the same session. I don't need all that scripting. I just want to edit some simple DCL. OK? I'm a lowly ex-physicist who wrote a lot of stuff in FORTRAN. I've inspected Pascal code, started learning c, and dabbled a little in existing perl scripts. That's it! I'm not a professional coder! For those who are, use a more powerful editor. I'm okay with that!!!
One time both EDT and EVE failed me! I needed lines longer than 255 chars, but also SET NO TRUNCATE. Neither editor has both. So I had to struggle to get the task done.
The only times I need EVE is for overstrike mode and box editing. The rest of the time I like EDT, esp. now that it is not limited to 22 lines. (Actually, there may be other rare times, like wildcard searches maybe, but it's been a long, long time!)
Many times I've used EVE to edit files whose records are 2000+
characters. I never had problems. The system was running at least VMS
V5.5, but maybe V6.2. On what version of VMS did you last use EVE?
On EISNER:: just a short wile ago. (OpenVMS V8.4-2L2)

My bad experiences with EVE came from my time as a graduate research assistant. That was in the late 1980s. We had various editions of v4 and v5 VAX/VMS.

EVE was always a pain. Never worked at remote sites without a lot of fuss. Had a lot of trouble with it at "home." I've already described all those misadventures that in this thread. At some point I realized that I never had any of these problems with EDT. So EDT it was.

I last used EVE today to see how hard it would be to convert all my EDT key definitions. At least some of them might not be doable at all. Why should I bother? I'm just working on my TO.COM and maybe a few rather small DCL procedures -- both for the Freeware webpage. Again, I'm a lowly ex-physicist who worked at jobs where I could manage and work with VMS. I am not a professional coder. I don't need super whiz-bang editors. They're overkill.

Earlier in the last month or so I used EVE to update the help page in TO.COM, where overstrike mode and the box bit were quite useful.

And what's with the multi-colored editors I saw at my last job which have god-knows-what other features? There are still too many bugs in software! I think it just means the coders can crank out bugs at a higher rate. (~_^)

BTW, why did it take so long for someone to fix the hard-coded 22-line limit on EDT? How long could it have taken? Well, I'm very happy about it now!
Post by Tad Winters
<<snip>>
Post by ***@gmail.com
AEF
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AEF
Michael Moroney
2021-11-22 03:19:03 UTC
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Post by ***@gmail.com
BTW, why did it take so long for someone to fix the hard-coded 22-line limit on EDT? How long could it have taken? Well, I'm very happy about it now!
That "someone" is myself. As to why did it "take so long", EDT was
considered obsolete for decades. Nobody was actively maintaining it. I
just recently posted some comments about fixing it. It was an unofficial
fix, I just did it one day. But EDT fans may be happy to know that EDT
was the first editor to run on x86. I forget why EVE/TPU took longer, it
may have been a compiler bug that affected it but not EDT. A different
problem prevented EDT from working out of the box however.
hb
2021-11-22 10:53:30 UTC
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Yes, EDT was the first VMS supplied editor running on x86, in June 2020.
Micro emacs ran on x86 in October 2019.

FWIW, JED, another also not so popular editor available for VMS, was
ported to x86 in August 2020: yeah, some people find syntax coloring for
DCL procedures useful. And Emacs 21.2, a somehow more popular editor
available for VMS, was just cross-compiled for x86. It seems to work,
but it's not yet ready for use.
Post by ***@gmail.com
BTW, why did it take so long for someone to fix the hard-coded 22-line
limit on EDT? How long could it have taken? Well, I'm very happy about
it now!
That "someone" is myself.  As to why did it "take so long", EDT was
considered obsolete for decades. Nobody was actively maintaining it. I
just recently posted some comments about fixing it. It was an unofficial
fix, I just did it one day. But EDT fans may be happy to know that EDT
was the first editor to run on x86. I forget why EVE/TPU took longer, it
may have been a compiler bug that affected it but not EDT. A different
problem prevented EDT from working out of the box however.
Robert A. Brooks
2021-11-22 14:40:56 UTC
Reply
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Post by Michael Moroney
Post by ***@gmail.com
BTW, why did it take so long for someone to fix the hard-coded 22-line
limit on EDT? How long could it have taken? Well, I'm very happy about it
now!
That "someone" is myself. As to why did it "take so long", EDT was
considered obsolete for decades. Nobody was actively maintaining it. I just
recently posted some comments about fixing it. It was an unofficial fix, I
just did it one day. But EDT fans may be happy to know that EDT was the first
editor to run on x86. I forget why EVE/TPU took longer, it may have been a
compiler bug that affected it but not EDT. A different problem prevented EDT
from working out of the box however.
Both editors were affected by the change on X86 where code is placed in 64-bit
space by default. This default can be overriden with the LINK qualifier
/SEGMENT_ATTRIBUTE=CODE=P0.

The problem was that in both editors (and other areas of the operating system
and layered products), certain data PSECTS were marked as EXECUTABLE. This
worked on VAX, Alpha, and IA64, and was likely a VAX-era optimization to keep
certain data co-located with the relevant code. This does not work on X86;
Reagan can give the details.

Both editors are written in BLISS, and early BLISS compilers (or perhaps the
GEM-to-LLVM converter) did not deal with the GLOBAL BIND syntax correctly.

I drew the short straw for both editors and had the pleasure of of tracking down
where in the code was failing, coming up with stripped-down reproducers, and
bringing my findings to Reagan so he could puzzle it out.
--
-- Rob
Ian Miller
2021-11-22 16:52:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert A. Brooks
Post by ***@gmail.com
BTW, why did it take so long for someone to fix the hard-coded 22-line
limit on EDT? How long could it have taken? Well, I'm very happy about it
now!
That "someone" is myself. As to why did it "take so long", EDT was
considered obsolete for decades. Nobody was actively maintaining it. I just
recently posted some comments about fixing it. It was an unofficial fix, I
just did it one day. But EDT fans may be happy to know that EDT was the first
editor to run on x86. I forget why EVE/TPU took longer, it may have been a
compiler bug that affected it but not EDT. A different problem prevented EDT
from working out of the box however.
Both editors were affected by the change on X86 where code is placed in 64-bit
space by default. This default can be overriden with the LINK qualifier
/SEGMENT_ATTRIBUTE=CODE=P0.
The problem was that in both editors (and other areas of the operating system
and layered products), certain data PSECTS were marked as EXECUTABLE. This
worked on VAX, Alpha, and IA64, and was likely a VAX-era optimization to keep
certain data co-located with the relevant code. This does not work on X86;
Reagan can give the details.
Both editors are written in BLISS, and early BLISS compilers (or perhaps the
GEM-to-LLVM converter) did not deal with the GLOBAL BIND syntax correctly.
I drew the short straw for both editors and had the pleasure of of tracking down
where in the code was failing, coming up with stripped-down reproducers, and
bringing my findings to Reagan so he could puzzle it out.
--
-- Rob
but does TECO work on x86 yet? :-)
Robert A. Brooks
2021-11-22 17:03:33 UTC
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Post by Ian Miller
but does TECO work on x86 yet? :-)
TECO barely works on IA64.

TECO was VEST'ed for Alpha and AEST'ed for IA64.

We'll need a native version for X86, and it may be a freeware version.
--
-- Rob
Simon Clubley
2021-11-22 19:14:29 UTC
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Post by Robert A. Brooks
Post by Ian Miller
but does TECO work on x86 yet? :-)
TECO barely works on IA64.
TECO was VEST'ed for Alpha and AEST'ed for IA64.
We'll need a native version for X86, and it may be a freeware version.
Do you have any ideas about which freeware version ?

The one I am aware of is tecoc but the last time I looked at it, it did
not have a proper video mode so you couldn't run VTEDIT (for example).

Do you know of any others that do have a proper video mode ?

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Alan Frisbie
2021-11-22 17:22:26 UTC
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Post by Ian Miller
but does TECO work on x86 yet? :-)
You beat me to it! :-)

While I don't use TECO daily, there are times when it is the
only suitable tool. One customer has an annual (yes, just once
a year) job that involves extracting data from a vendor's report
file. We considered other approaches, but eventually concluded
that TECO was the right tool for the job, by a long shot.

Documenting it was fun!

Depending on the task at hand, I may use TPU, EDT, vi(m), notepad
or TECO. What matters is which one is most suitable for the job.

Alan
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2021-11-22 20:46:50 UTC
Reply
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Post by Robert A. Brooks
Post by Ian Miller
but does TECO work on x86 yet? :-)
TECO barely works on IA64.
TECO was VEST'ed for Alpha and AEST'ed for IA64.
We'll need a native version for X86, and it may be a freeware version.
Is Elliott Roper still around?
John Reagan
2021-11-22 23:13:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert A. Brooks
Post by ***@gmail.com
BTW, why did it take so long for someone to fix the hard-coded 22-line
limit on EDT? How long could it have taken? Well, I'm very happy about it
now!
That "someone" is myself. As to why did it "take so long", EDT was
considered obsolete for decades. Nobody was actively maintaining it. I just
recently posted some comments about fixing it. It was an unofficial fix, I
just did it one day. But EDT fans may be happy to know that EDT was the first
editor to run on x86. I forget why EVE/TPU took longer, it may have been a
compiler bug that affected it but not EDT. A different problem prevented EDT
from working out of the box however.
Both editors were affected by the change on X86 where code is placed in 64-bit
space by default. This default can be overriden with the LINK qualifier
/SEGMENT_ATTRIBUTE=CODE=P0.
The problem was that in both editors (and other areas of the operating system
and layered products), certain data PSECTS were marked as EXECUTABLE. This
worked on VAX, Alpha, and IA64, and was likely a VAX-era optimization to keep
certain data co-located with the relevant code. This does not work on X86;
Reagan can give the details.
Both editors are written in BLISS, and early BLISS compilers (or perhaps the
GEM-to-LLVM converter) did not deal with the GLOBAL BIND syntax correctly.
I drew the short straw for both editors and had the pleasure of of tracking down
where in the code was failing, coming up with stripped-down reproducers, and
bringing my findings to Reagan so he could puzzle it out.
--
-- Rob
That's a reasonable summary.

I'm working on (pardon the BLISS for those who don't understand):

GLOBAL BIND A = PLIT(1,2,3);

The BLISS frontend generates two anonymous variables (one for the count and
another for the anonymous data) then one named variable A which is linker visible
for the data, and yet another anonymous variable to represent A's count. Of course
all of these variables occupy the same memory. We incorrectly allocated two count
variables and ended up with:

.long 3
.long 0
A:
.long 1
.long 2
.long 3

Code that used the count to determine how many entries are in the vector would get
zero. Fixing that, I found another case where we over-aligned something and let an
alignment hole get between the count and the data. None of that is goodness.

As I've said before, the single biggest difference between GEM (well, VMS compilers
in general) and LLVM is that GEM is PSECT-oriented. PSECTs have initial values and
variables are simply bound to "PSECT+offset". That's a low-level assembler view of
the world (but very flexible). LLVM is variable-oriented. Variables occupy memory and
can be assigned to sections (aka PSECTs). Variables have initial values. It gets really
twisted with COMMON blocks and is one of the reasons that BASIC MAP statements
are causing my grief (among other things the BASIC frontend does). We essentially
have to skim the PSECT initializers from the frontends, figure out which variables they
apply to, derive a datatype to describe it (LLVM's initializers are "strongly types" and
have to match the size/shape of the variable they are attached to), and stitch it all
together. We had to add extra LLVM magic to get

GLOBAL BIND A = PLIT(1,2,3);
B = A[1];

to work at all. This was one of the EDT issues.
alanfe...@gmail.com
2021-11-23 03:59:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert A. Brooks
Post by ***@gmail.com
BTW, why did it take so long for someone to fix the hard-coded 22-line
limit on EDT? How long could it have taken? Well, I'm very happy about it
now!
That "someone" is myself. As to why did it "take so long", EDT was
considered obsolete for decades. Nobody was actively maintaining it. I just
recently posted some comments about fixing it. It was an unofficial fix, I
just did it one day. But EDT fans may be happy to know that EDT was the first
editor to run on x86. I forget why EVE/TPU took longer, it may have been a
compiler bug that affected it but not EDT. A different problem prevented EDT
from working out of the box however.
Both editors were affected by the change on X86 where code is placed in 64-bit
space by default. This default can be overriden with the LINK qualifier
/SEGMENT_ATTRIBUTE=CODE=P0.
The problem was that in both editors (and other areas of the operating system
and layered products), certain data PSECTS were marked as EXECUTABLE. This
worked on VAX, Alpha, and IA64, and was likely a VAX-era optimization to keep
certain data co-located with the relevant code. This does not work on X86;
Reagan can give the details.
Both editors are written in BLISS, and early BLISS compilers (or perhaps the
GEM-to-LLVM converter) did not deal with the GLOBAL BIND syntax correctly.
I drew the short straw for both editors and had the pleasure of of tracking down
where in the code was failing, coming up with stripped-down reproducers, and
bringing my findings to Reagan so he could puzzle it out.
--
-- Rob
Thank you for including EDT in your fix! Bravo!!!
alanfe...@gmail.com
2021-11-23 03:59:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
BTW, why did it take so long for someone to fix the hard-coded 22-line limit on EDT? How long could it have taken? Well, I'm very happy about it now!
That "someone" is myself. As to why did it "take so long", EDT was
considered obsolete for decades. Nobody was actively maintaining it. I
just recently posted some comments about fixing it. It was an unofficial
fix, I just did it one day. But EDT fans may be happy to know that EDT
was the first editor to run on x86. I forget why EVE/TPU took longer, it
may have been a compiler bug that affected it but not EDT. A different
problem prevented EDT from working out of the box however.
Thank you so much!!!!! I cannot thank you enough. Thank you again.

(^_^( (^_^( (^_^( (^_^( (^_^(
alanfe...@gmail.com
2021-11-19 12:11:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Can your favorite editor let you define keys without compiling a huge
section file? Can you easily look up what any given key combo does? Esp.
when done by learn mode? Just asking.
I have already answered your first question (answer is yes) and posted
EVE examples for you to try.
I just scanned this entire thread for your posts and do not see either of the above.
Please re-post.
Someone else has already answered your second question. I don't know if
that includes learn sequences, but I have _never_ needed to see the learn
sequence that I have just entered as I don't care about it after the end
of the current session.
I couldn't find this one, either. Please post the answer. But the answer appears to be "no".
BTW, EVE isn't my favourite editor. It's just that its a lot more powerful
and productive to use on VMS than trying to use EDT.
Depends on your tasks and whether you keep getting "Compile aborted on line 1" when you make a change dozens of lines down. I had to struggle to get EVE to work at all every time I wanted to use it at a remote lab. That is not what I would call productive! But EDT always worked no matter where I was. It's like Stereo Review (or some other stereo mag) once said: you can always tell the difference between the sound quality of a working amp vs. that of a broken one! EVE was always a pain at remote labs just to get it to run at all. THAT IS NOT WHAT I WOULD CALL PRODUCTIVE!!! And we weren't writing applications, though I did write a FORTRAN program to analyze logical combinations of hits on our detectors. And it's the only non-trivial program I wrote that worked on first compile! Unfortunately I don't have a copy of it. I think the key was to repeatedly scan two lists: the wait (?) list and the done list. Or something like that. I do remember that there were two lists that were key to the program.

Yes, some people use editors for purposes other than writing sophisticated apps. Please take note.

Hey! vi is more productive on many Unix systems (and Linux?), as it is the only one guaranteed to actually be on the box. You can't be productive with an editor that isn't there!!! (~_^)

Emacs is an even more
powerful editor however.
Lovely. You are welcome to use emacs. I'm not stopping you. I'm not forcing you to use EDT either. \relax

I'm beginning to get the impression you don't think much of EDT. (!) (~_^)
Simon.
[...]
AEF
Arne Vajhøj
2021-11-20 00:04:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Depends on your tasks and whether you keep getting "Compile aborted
on line 1" when you make a change dozens of lines down. I had to
struggle to get EVE to work at all every time I wanted to use it at a
remote lab. That is not what I would call productive! But EDT always
worked no matter where I was. It's like Stereo Review (or some other
stereo mag) once said: you can always tell the difference between the
sound quality of a working amp vs. that of a broken one! EVE was
always a pain at remote labs just to get it to run at all. THAT IS
NOT WHAT I WOULD CALL PRODUCTIVE!!!
I am little confused by this.
First compilation of TPU code is not part of normal editing. It is
part of developing TPU code. I don't consider TPU development
difficult, but obviously other may have a different experience.
Perhaps not. But isn't customization important?
It is.

But note that EVE got 3 levels of customization:
1) EVE init file
2) TPU command file
3) TPU section file

The first is equivalent to EDT init file.

But only the last 2 compiles.
Second EVE has been the default editor on VMS for a couple of decades
and I suspect that over 50% of VMS editing is done using EVE
And we have not been swamped with reports of EVE not working or being
difficult to get working. So I will assume that in most contexts then
EVE just work out of the box.
Well, my experience with EVE is mostly from the late 1980s in
graduate school. It was a continual PITA. Default or not, EDT worked
at remote labs and to get EVE to work AT ALL was a royal PITA. Maybe
30-some years things are better.
Weird.

With standard VMS and standard section file and a suitable
VT terminal then it should work. Even a botched init or
command file should just result in it not being run.

Arne
alanfe...@gmail.com
2021-11-21 09:13:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[...]
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Perhaps not. But isn't customization important?
It is.
1) EVE init file
2) TPU command file
3) TPU section file
The first is equivalent to EDT init file.
But only the last 2 compiles.
As I've said before: EVE is a blow torch, but I only need a match.
Also, I'm not so sure I could translate many of my EDT key definitions into EVE. I'd have to check.
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Second EVE has been the default editor on VMS for a couple of decades
and I suspect that over 50% of VMS editing is done using EVE
And we have not been swamped with reports of EVE not working or being
difficult to get working. So I will assume that in most contexts then
EVE just work out of the box.
Well, my experience with EVE is mostly from the late 1980s in
graduate school. It was a continual PITA. Default or not, EDT worked
at remote labs and to get EVE to work AT ALL was a royal PITA. Maybe
30-some years things are better.
Weird.
With standard VMS and standard section file and a suitable
VT terminal then it should work. Even a botched init or
command file should just result in it not being run.
Well, I worked on an Alpha from 2015-2018 (maybe 2015-2017). I don't think I tried EVE there. I didn't really need it. Remember: I am a lowly ex-physicist who used to write a lot of DCL and Fortran. I haven't done Fortran since maybe 1993. No original Fortran since 1991. And on that Alpha from 2015 to 2018 I did some DCL and zero Fortran. Mostly I just moved automated file transfer data (company names, file names, addresses, etc. -- oh, metadata, I guess!) from there to a Unix box.

I'm working on EISNER:: now, and EVE comes up fine. I use it only when I need overstrike mode or box cut, copy and paste. I see no point in starting all over again just to update TO.COM and perhaps a few very small DCL command procedures for the Freeware page. I really don't want to redo my several dozen EDT key definitions. For what? OK, might be nice to have split screen, but still not worth converting my EDT command file.

Oh, I have a 13-line Fortran program that writes your current command to a tmp file. Saves re-typing!
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Arne
Simon Clubley
2021-11-22 18:46:18 UTC
Reply
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Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by ***@gmail.com
Can your favorite editor let you define keys without compiling a huge
section file? Can you easily look up what any given key combo does? Esp.
when done by learn mode? Just asking.
I have already answered your first question (answer is yes) and posted
EVE examples for you to try.
I just scanned this entire thread for your posts and do not see either of the above.
Please re-post.
From my original posting:

You define them in your EVE initialisation file. Some examples:

define key= gold/d wps gold-|
define key= gold/r wps gold-r
define key=gold-left shift left 16
define key=gold-right shift right 16
Post by ***@gmail.com
Someone else has already answered your second question. I don't know if
that includes learn sequences, but I have _never_ needed to see the learn
sequence that I have just entered as I don't care about it after the end
of the current session.
I couldn't find this one, either. Please post the answer. But the answer appears to be "no".
I can't remember what they wrote, but Gold-PF2 gives a list of key
definitions for me.
Post by ***@gmail.com
I'm beginning to get the impression you don't think much of EDT. (!) (~_^)
By today's standards, no I don't. It was good by 1980s standards,
but not by today's standards.

Even back when I switched from RSTS/E to VAX/VMS, I switched from
EDT to EVE within half a day of first trying EVE because EVE was
immediately obviously so superior to me.

I do like the EDT keypad however and I continue to use that in EVE
and emacs because it's so much easier to work with than
Ctrl-{this, that and the other} for routine navigation tasks.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
alanfe...@gmail.com
2021-11-23 03:46:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by ***@gmail.com
Can your favorite editor let you define keys without compiling a huge
section file? Can you easily look up what any given key combo does? Esp.
when done by learn mode? Just asking.
I have already answered your first question (answer is yes) and posted
EVE examples for you to try.
I just scanned this entire thread for your posts and do not see either of the above.
Please re-post.
define key= gold/d wps gold-|
define key= gold/r wps gold-r
define key=gold-left shift left 16
define key=gold-right shift right 16
Thanks.

This posting never made it to Google Groups. Did you post it on the SET DEFAULT thread, perhaps?
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by ***@gmail.com
Someone else has already answered your second question. I don't know if
that includes learn sequences, but I have _never_ needed to see the learn
sequence that I have just entered as I don't care about it after the end
of the current session.
I couldn't find this one, either. Please post the answer. But the answer appears to be "no".
I can't remember what they wrote, but Gold-PF2 gives a list of key
definitions for me.
Yep. It certainly does. Got it. I did, however, discover this on my own sometime during this barrage of posts. Sorry I didn't acknowledge it earlier. My bad.

I'm not certain, but I think you can actually do more things with EDT key definitions using the NOKEYPAD commands than you can with the above. I'd check it out, but that is definitely one of the things I wanted to avoid by not trying to switch to EVE!

Perhaps you'll tell me I can script key definitions commands and stuff. Come to think of it, that was probably what I was trying to do when I kept getting the "Compilation aborted on line 1" message again and again.
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by ***@gmail.com
I'm beginning to get the impression you don't think much of EDT. (!) (~_^)
By today's standards, no I don't. It was good by 1980s standards,
but not by today's standards.
OK, I'm finally convinced you don't think much of EDT. (^_^) Coffin nailed tight.
Post by Simon Clubley
Even back when I switched from RSTS/E to VAX/VMS, I switched from
EDT to EVE within half a day of first trying EVE because EVE was
immediately obviously so superior to me.
I do like the EDT keypad however and I continue to use that in EVE
and emacs because it's so much easier to work with than
Ctrl-{this, that and the other} for routine navigation tasks.
Yes, the EDT keypad is pretty good. I was ecstatic when I finally found out how to set up a bona fide emulation of it on my Mac keyboard. I figured that, as the default EVE layout was pretty lame, and the fact that DEC gave us the SET KEYPAD EDT command was a definite clue that it was a popular bit.
Post by Simon Clubley
Simon.
--
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Simon Clubley
2021-11-23 19:23:08 UTC
Reply
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Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Simon Clubley
define key= gold/d wps gold-|
define key= gold/r wps gold-r
define key=gold-left shift left 16
define key=gold-right shift right 16
Thanks.
This posting never made it to Google Groups. Did you post it on the SET DEFAULT thread, perhaps?
This was the subject line of the original posting:

Subject: Re: Editors, was: Re: VT keyboard replacement

BTW, looking at my key definitions above, did anyone ever use WPS
itself on VMS ? Was it any good ?

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Dave Froble
2021-11-22 20:47:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Second EVE has been the default editor on VMS for a couple of decades
and I suspect that over 50% of VMS editing is done using EVE
And we have not been swamped with reports of EVE not working or being
difficult to get working. So I will assume that in most contexts then
EVE just work out of the box.
Well, my experience with EVE is mostly from the late 1980s in graduate school. It was a continual PITA. Default or not, EDT worked at remote labs and to get EVE to work AT ALL was a royal PITA. Maybe 30-some years things are better.
So you are judging the editors of today by knowledge obtained
30 years ago ? :-)
Perhaps some people feel the need to keep changing editors. That's fine for
them. But other people learn how to do something, and as long as it works for
them, that is what they turn to when needing an editor. No new learning curve.
No wasted time. More productive.

The key is, if it is a good tool for a job, why change?

If more is required, then of course find a better tool.

Now can we drop this really silly subject?
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Dave Froble
2021-11-24 02:03:00 UTC
Reply
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Post by Dave Froble
Perhaps some people feel the need to keep changing editors. That's fine for
them. But other people learn how to do something, and as long as it works for
them, that is what they turn to when needing an editor. No new learning curve.
No wasted time. More productive.
The key is, if it is a good tool for a job, why change?
Because a better tool can come along.
That is not a valid reason to change. But I don't think you'll ever understand
that.
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Arne Vajhøj
2021-11-24 02:30:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Froble
Perhaps some people feel the need to keep changing editors.  That's
fine for
them.  But other people learn how to do something, and as long as it
works for
them, that is what they turn to when needing an editor.  No new
learning curve.
No wasted time.  More productive.
The key is, if it is a good tool for a job, why change?
Because a better tool can come along.
That is not a valid reason to change.
It can be.

It is a calculation.

What is the cost (actual cost + value of risk) of migrating
compared to the benefits (cost savings + value new possibilities)
of migrating transformed into present value using some required
rate of return.

Excel cowboys love doing that.

Arne
alanfe...@gmail.com
2021-11-24 20:25:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Perhaps some people feel the need to keep changing editors. That's fine for
them. But other people learn how to do something, and as long as it works for
them, that is what they turn to when needing an editor. No new learning curve.
No wasted time. More productive.
The key is, if it is a good tool for a job, why change?
Because a better tool can come along.
That happened to me when moving from EDT on RSTS/E to EVE on VAX/VMS.
Question: Do you buy a new smartphone every year? Do you buy a new home computer every year? Each is better than its predecessor. So do you?

Do you buy a new car every year? Each is better than its predecessor.

Have you switched to the Dvorak keyboard? It's clearly a better tool than QWERTY.
Simon.
--
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Arne Vajhøj
2021-11-24 21:28:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Perhaps some people feel the need to keep changing editors. That's fine for
them. But other people learn how to do something, and as long as it works for
them, that is what they turn to when needing an editor. No new learning curve.
No wasted time. More productive.
The key is, if it is a good tool for a job, why change?
Because a better tool can come along.
That happened to me when moving from EDT on RSTS/E to EVE on VAX/VMS.
Question: Do you buy a new smartphone every year? Do you buy a new home computer every year? Each is better than its predecessor. So do you?
Do you buy a new car every year? Each is better than its predecessor.
I am not sure that those example support the idea of staying with EDT.

Practically everybody buys new phones, new PC's and new cars.

Not every year, but every 3 or 5 or 10 years.

Nobody suggested changing editor every year, just every 10 or 20 year.

:-)

Arne
alanfe...@gmail.com
2021-11-25 02:24:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by ***@gmail.com
Perhaps some people feel the need to keep changing editors. That's fine for
them. But other people learn how to do something, and as long as it works for
them, that is what they turn to when needing an editor. No new learning curve.
No wasted time. More productive.
The key is, if it is a good tool for a job, why change?
Because a better tool can come along.
That happened to me when moving from EDT on RSTS/E to EVE on VAX/VMS.
Question: Do you buy a new smartphone every year? Do you buy a new home computer every year? Each is better than its predecessor. So do you?
Do you buy a new car every year? Each is better than its predecessor.
I am not sure that those example support the idea of staying with EDT.
Practically everybody buys new phones, new PC's and new cars.
Not every year, but every 3 or 5 or 10 years.
Nobody suggested changing editor every year, just every 10 or 20 year.
Well, the point was that normally you don't buy a new phone or car every year just because a better one comes out. So extend that to a lifetime for EDT!

I don't see the big deal here. Simon is free to use EVE or emacs or whatever suits him. I have no problem with that. I'm not saying he should use EDT. But he shouldn't tell me to stop using EDT and switch to EVE, just like I don't tell anyone to switch from the QWERTY to the Dvorak keyboard. Perhaps that is the better example.
Post by Arne Vajhøj
:-)
Arne
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2021-11-24 21:37:28 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by ***@gmail.com
Question: Do you buy a new smartphone every year? Do you buy a new
home computer every year? Each is better than its predecessor. So do
you?
Do you buy a new car every year? Each is better than its predecessor.
I am not sure that those example support the idea of staying with EDT.
Practically everybody buys new phones, new PC's and new cars.
I use Nokia 3310 and 3330 phones; they must be about 20 years old now.
I did buy a new car about a year ago, after the old one gave out after
more than 16 years and almost 400,000 km. New PC? I have bought one PC
in my life, 20 years ago, for a one-off relatively lucrative project,
and used it for just a couple of years.

But I am married for the second time. :-)
Simon Clubley
2021-11-25 13:20:26 UTC
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Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
But I am married for the second time. :-)
Did the first one get fed up with having to type in DCL commands to
turn on the TV ? :-)

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
alanfe...@gmail.com
2021-11-25 19:02:56 UTC
Reply
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Post by Simon Clubley
But I am married for the second time. :-)
Did the first one get fed up with having to type in DCL commands to
turn on the TV ? :-)
It would probably be easier to work the TV with DCL rather than those screwed-up remotes? I don't know what they're like now though, as I don't have cable.
Post by Simon Clubley
Simon.
--
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
alanfe...@gmail.com
2021-11-25 19:08:11 UTC
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Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Simon Clubley
But I am married for the second time. :-)
Did the first one get fed up with having to type in DCL commands to
turn on the TV ? :-)
It would probably be easier to work the TV with DCL rather than those screwed-up remotes? I don't know what they're like now though, as I don't have cable.
It would probably be easier to work the TV with DCL rather than those screwed-up remotes! I don't know what they're like now though, as I don't have cable.

!, not ? (!!!) exclamation point, not question mark!
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Simon Clubley
Simon.
--
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2021-11-25 14:59:41 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
But I am married for the second time. :-)
Did the first one get fed up with having to type in DCL commands to
turn on the TV ? :-)
True story: I wrote a simple menu in DCL, put a VT320 in my son's (from
my first marriage) bedroom, and he could do things like send me email
and so on. [hecks email folder] He was eight-and-one-half then. He
learned to type rather well, came up with the idea of ASCII art on his
own, and it was really practical, since I had moved away for work and
could see him only over a long weekend every two weeks. Some time
later, his mother (my first wife) bought a PC. His reaction: "Mama's
computer doesn't have a proper keyboard!" :-)

Maybe we would never have been divorced if Elliott had shown me how he
got his lawnmower to run on TECO. :-D
alanfe...@gmail.com
2021-11-23 03:24:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Second EVE has been the default editor on VMS for a couple of decades
and I suspect that over 50% of VMS editing is done using EVE
And we have not been swamped with reports of EVE not working or being
difficult to get working. So I will assume that in most contexts then
EVE just work out of the box.
Well, my experience with EVE is mostly from the late 1980s in graduate school. It was a continual PITA. Default or not, EDT worked at remote labs and to get EVE to work AT ALL was a royal PITA. Maybe 30-some years things are better.
So you are judging the editors of today by knowledge obtained
30 years ago ? :-)
I was simply relating why I never caught on to EVE. After all the trouble I had with it in grad school, I had little incentive to try it later. Every time I gave it a shot it would just slap me in the face again and again. EDT never did that. Well, almost never!!!

Come to think of it, I think it was just the Learn-defined keys you couldn't look up. Yes, you can look up the ones you type commands and keys for.

EDT was always there for me. Yes, other editors have more features and so on, but I almost never needed them. So I stuck with EDT. And when I was using DCL to export a database I found neither editor up to the job. I needed both SET NOTRUNCATE mode and long lines at the same time. Neither fit the bill.

I think my emacs experience was mostly limited to a Stratus machine running Stratus VOS. But the Stratus, being huge and expensive, was eventually decommissioned.

I found my self on Unix and Linux. And the only editor guaranteed to be on all of them was vi. So I learened vi.

After a 3- or 4-year near total hiatus from VMS I decided to bring TO.COM back to life. I'm really glad EDT now can have as many lines as you need on the screen. I have all my custom key definitions in a single file, easily readable and modifiable. I had no incentive to move to a new editor that almost always failed me. If I were to get a job doing VMS full time, then maybe I would consider EVE again.

Hey, if EVE is good for you, go for it! I'm not stopping you. Yes, in general, EVE is more capable. So what? It's of little help to me.

Hey, all I asked for was a pointer to some release notes. I didn't mean to start an editor war. And when someone asked how to substitute asdf for zxcv on all lines with poiu using EDT, the answer popped in my head immediately and I had to post it. Then I got sucked in. So be it.
That sounds about right for some topics or people around here... :-)
Simon.
PS: $ set response/mode=good_natured :-)
--
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
alanfe...@gmail.com
2021-11-21 09:44:26 UTC
Reply
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Post by ***@gmail.com
Can your favorite editor let you define keys without compiling a huge
section file? Can you easily look up what any given key combo does? Esp.
when done by learn mode? Just asking.
I have already answered your first question (answer is yes) and posted
EVE examples for you to try.
I just searched the entire thread again and I do not see any such post. Maybe Google Groups doesn't have it. Can you please re-post?
Someone else has already answered your second question. I don't know if
that includes learn sequences, but I have _never_ needed to see the learn
sequence that I have just entered as I don't care about it after the end
of the current session.
I have.
BTW, EVE isn't my favourite editor. It's just that its a lot more powerful
and productive to use on VMS than trying to use EDT. Emacs is an even more
powerful editor however.
Simon.
Again, I am a lowly ex-physicist who worked at jobs where my knowledge of VMS was of use. I am not a professional coder. I have BBEdit on my Mac at home. Even its free version appears to have a bazillion features I'll never use.
--
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
AEF
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