Discussion:
What's up with DECUS HTNotes ?
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Jon Schneider
2021-04-28 15:28:08 UTC
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I can login (with HTTP authentication) at
https://eisner.decus.org/notes/ but get only a page that says
ERROR 403 - The requested action is not permitted.
Additional information: 1xx, 2xx, 3xx, 4xx, 5xx, help

WASD/12.0.0b3 Server at eisner.decus.org Port 443

Is this service gone ? It would be a shame as the content went back decades.

Jon
Mark Daniel
2021-04-28 15:44:10 UTC
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Post by Jon Schneider
I can login (with HTTP authentication) at
https://eisner.decus.org/notes/ but get only a page that says
ERROR 403  -  The requested action is not permitted.
Additional information:  1xx,  2xx,  3xx,  4xx,  5xx,  help
WASD/12.0.0b3 Server at eisner.decus.org Port 443
Is this service gone ? It would be a shame as the content went back decades.
Jon
EISNER$ show time
28-APR-2021 11:43:45
Post by Jon Schneider
HTNotes V0.21b8 Profile Notebook Logout
Class: * MAIN
Conference Unseen Last new note Topics Notes Update status Action
1ST_AIDE 48 2-APR-2021 16:18 596 2463 Modify
3RD_PARTY_VMS_SOFTWARE 7 20-AUG-2020 06:43 506 4131 Modify
8< snip 8<

Expiration: 1-FEB-2021 23:59
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Anyone, who using social-media, forms an opinion regarding anything
other than the relative cuteness of this or that puppy-dog, needs
seriously to examine their critical thinking.
Volker Halle
2021-04-30 09:36:38 UTC
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Seems to work again...

Grahams's home page on EISNER is:

https://eisner.encompasserve.org/~burley/

The HTNOTES kit is there.

Volker.
Mark Daniel
2021-04-30 09:57:12 UTC
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Post by Volker Halle
Seems to work again...
https://eisner.encompasserve.org/~burley/
The HTNOTES kit is there.
Volker.
Nothing wrong with htNotes Volker. Jon last logged in 2017 and his
account expired beginning of 2021. Needs to reactivate the account.
--
Anyone, who using social-media, forms an opinion regarding anything
other than the relative cuteness of this or that puppy-dog, needs
seriously to examine their critical thinking.
k***@gmail.com
2021-05-15 16:09:40 UTC
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-----Original Message-----
Info-vax
Sent: April-30-21 6:57 AM
Subject: Re: [Info-vax] What's up with DECUS HTNotes ?
Post by Volker Halle
Seems to work again...
https://eisner.encompasserve.org/~burley/
The HTNOTES kit is there.
Volker.
Nothing wrong with htNotes Volker. Jon last logged in 2017 and his account
expired beginning of 2021. Needs to reactivate the account.
--
Not related to original q, but I tried installing htnotes_021b3.zip on
latest VSI OpenVMS V8.4-2L3 on rx2600.

$ cc/version
VSI C V7.4-001 on OpenVMS IA64 V8.4-2L3

Followed install notes, but I get an error on the last build statement in
the build section

$ link/exe=[.client] [.client]ht_client, [.source]ht_client.opt/opt
sys$library:notes$share/share
%ILINK-W-COMPWARN, compilation warnings
shareable image: SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]NOTES$SHARE.EXE;1

Has anyone had this issue before with HTNotes install?

Thx,


Regards,

Kerry Main
Kerry dot main at starkgaming dot com
--
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Robert A. Brooks
2021-05-15 17:17:03 UTC
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Post by k***@gmail.com
Not related to original q, but I tried installing htnotes_021b3.zip on
latest VSI OpenVMS V8.4-2L3 on rx2600.
$ cc/version
VSI C V7.4-001 on OpenVMS IA64 V8.4-2L3
Followed install notes, but I get an error on the last build statement in
the build section
$ link/exe=[.client] [.client]ht_client, [.source]ht_client.opt/opt
sys$library:notes$share/share
%ILINK-W-COMPWARN, compilation warnings
shareable image: SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]NOTES$SHARE.EXE;1
Has anyone had this issue before with HTNotes install?
What version of NOTES is installed on that system?
--
-- Rob
k***@gmail.com
2021-05-15 18:06:12 UTC
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-----Original Message-----
Brooks via Info-vax
Sent: May-15-21 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Info-vax] What's up with DECUS HTNotes ?
Post by k***@gmail.com
Not related to original q, but I tried installing htnotes_021b3.zip on
latest VSI OpenVMS V8.4-2L3 on rx2600.
$ cc/version
VSI C V7.4-001 on OpenVMS IA64 V8.4-2L3
Followed install notes, but I get an error on the last build statement
in the build section
$ link/exe=[.client] [.client]ht_client, [.source]ht_client.opt/opt
sys$library:notes$share/share %ILINK-W-COMPWARN, compilation
warnings
Post by k***@gmail.com
shareable image: SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]NOTES$SHARE.EXE;1
Has anyone had this issue before with HTNotes install?
What version of NOTES is installed on that system?
--
-- Rob
Kit = notes026.a


Regards,

Kerry Main
Kerry dot main at starkgaming dot com
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
Robert A. Brooks
2021-05-15 18:45:11 UTC
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Post by k***@gmail.com
-----Original Message-----
Brooks via Info-vax
Sent: May-15-21 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Info-vax] What's up with DECUS HTNotes ?
Post by k***@gmail.com
Not related to original q, but I tried installing htnotes_021b3.zip on
latest VSI OpenVMS V8.4-2L3 on rx2600.
$ cc/version
VSI C V7.4-001 on OpenVMS IA64 V8.4-2L3
Followed install notes, but I get an error on the last build statement
in the build section
$ link/exe=[.client] [.client]ht_client, [.source]ht_client.opt/opt
sys$library:notes$share/share %ILINK-W-COMPWARN, compilation
warnings
Post by k***@gmail.com
shareable image: SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]NOTES$SHARE.EXE;1
Has anyone had this issue before with HTNotes install?
What version of NOTES is installed on that system?
--
-- Rob
Kit = notes026.a
Unfortunately, I think the NOTES versioning went off the rails at some point;
rumour has it that there are multiple (different) kits of V2.6 (and perhaps V2.5).

What does $ SHOW IMAGE SYS$LIBRARY:NOTES$SHARE reveal?
--
-- Rob
k***@gmail.com
2021-05-15 19:13:01 UTC
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-----Original Message-----
Brooks via Info-vax
Sent: May-15-21 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Info-vax] What's up with DECUS HTNotes ?
Post by k***@gmail.com
-----Original Message-----
Brooks via Info-vax
Sent: May-15-21 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Info-vax] What's up with DECUS HTNotes ?
Post by k***@gmail.com
Not related to original q, but I tried installing htnotes_021b3.zip
on latest VSI OpenVMS V8.4-2L3 on rx2600.
$ cc/version
VSI C V7.4-001 on OpenVMS IA64 V8.4-2L3
Followed install notes, but I get an error on the last build
statement in the build section
$ link/exe=[.client] [.client]ht_client, [.source]ht_client.opt/opt
sys$library:notes$share/share %ILINK-W-COMPWARN, compilation
warnings
Post by k***@gmail.com
shareable image: SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]NOTES$SHARE.EXE;1
Has anyone had this issue before with HTNotes install?
What version of NOTES is installed on that system?
--
-- Rob
Kit = notes026.a
Unfortunately, I think the NOTES versioning went off the rails at some point;
rumour has it that there are multiple (different) kits of V2.6 (and perhaps V2.5).
What does $ SHOW IMAGE SYS$LIBRARY:NOTES$SHARE reveal?
Rob - thanks for follow-up.

Looks like what I have is V2.5 .. (see below)

also, notes "Show version" shows "DEC Notes T2.6"

Is there a pointer to the latest Notes V2.6 kit?

SYS003> SHOW IMAGE SYS$LIBRARY:NOTES$SHARE
Show Image Version 1.2 15-MAY-2021
14:42:51.99
SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]NOTES$SHARE.EXE;1
This is an OpenVMS IA64 (Elf format) executable image file

Image Identification Information

Image name: NOTES$SHARE
Global Symbol Table name: NOTES$SHARE
** Image file identification: NOTES V2.5
Image build identification: <unavailable>
Link identification: Linker T02-17
Link Date/Time: 13-DEC-2004 15:56:54.21
Patch Date/Time: Never
Manipulation Date/Time: Never
Image Dynamic Data Version: 1.2

Image Completion Code Value: WARNING State: Original

Image Link Flags state: Original

Image Link Flags
--------------------------------------------
MAIN : Image has main transfer
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Simon Clubley
2021-05-15 21:56:25 UTC
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Post by k***@gmail.com
Not related to original q, but I tried installing htnotes_021b3.zip on
latest VSI OpenVMS V8.4-2L3 on rx2600.
$ cc/version
VSI C V7.4-001 on OpenVMS IA64 V8.4-2L3
Followed install notes, but I get an error on the last build statement in
the build section
$ link/exe=[.client] [.client]ht_client, [.source]ht_client.opt/opt
sys$library:notes$share/share
%ILINK-W-COMPWARN, compilation warnings
shareable image: SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]NOTES$SHARE.EXE;1
Are any warning messages emitted by the compiler when it is
compiling your source code ?

Can you use your linked image (it's a compiler warning, not a linker
error) or did the build process stop after the link statement with
other stuff still to do ?

However, even if the image appears to work, I would not recommend
using it in production use until you understand what is going on.

Also, I'm surprised to see a DEC product shipped with user visible
compiler warnings in the product...

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Robert A. Brooks
2021-05-15 23:16:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by k***@gmail.com
Not related to original q, but I tried installing htnotes_021b3.zip on
latest VSI OpenVMS V8.4-2L3 on rx2600.
$ cc/version
VSI C V7.4-001 on OpenVMS IA64 V8.4-2L3
Followed install notes, but I get an error on the last build statement in
the build section
$ link/exe=[.client] [.client]ht_client, [.source]ht_client.opt/opt
sys$library:notes$share/share
%ILINK-W-COMPWARN, compilation warnings
shareable image: SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]NOTES$SHARE.EXE;1
Also, I'm surprised to see a DEC product shipped with user visible
compiler warnings in the product...
It was probably freeware at that point; not a saleable product.

A shareable image should never be built with compiler warnings, even
if it's a free product . . .
--
-- Rob
Stephen Hoffman
2021-05-16 00:51:25 UTC
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Post by Robert A. Brooks
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by k***@gmail.com
Not related to original q, but I tried installing htnotes_021b3.zip on
latest VSI OpenVMS V8.4-2L3 on rx2600.
$ cc/version
VSI C V7.4-001 on OpenVMS IA64 V8.4-2L3
Followed install notes, but I get an error on the last build statement in
the build section
$ link/exe=[.client] [.client]ht_client, [.source]ht_client.opt/opt
sys$library:notes$share/share
%ILINK-W-COMPWARN, compilation warnings
shareable image: SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]NOTES$SHARE.EXE;1
Also, I'm surprised to see a DEC product shipped with user visible
compiler warnings in the product...
It was probably freeware at that point; not a saleable product.
A shareable image should never be built with compiler warnings, even if
it's a free product . . .
Notes was pulled into OpenVMS development after its cancellation as a
product, due to the use of Notes by OpenVMS.

This once I was able to locate the source code, and to also acquire the
Notes patches that had become available.

One of the other developers took it on at the time and had sorted out
various issues, though there were other... complications.

This eventually led to the following kits becoming available:

https://www.digiater.nl/openvms/freeware/v70/notes/
https://www.digiater.nl/openvms/freeware/v70/notes_ft/

Based solely on the version numbers and the Itanium, that looks like
the "beta" kit.

And given that's a warning, not an error, either ignore it or patch the
shareable to remove the there-be-build-errors flag, if it bothers you.

Whether VSI acquired the source code to Notes from then-HP? And if VSI
did acquire the source code, whether VSI plans to release an updated
and VSI-branded kit?
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
Robert A. Brooks
2021-05-16 01:45:33 UTC
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Whether VSI acquired the source code to Notes from then-HP? And if VSI did
acquire the source code, whether VSI plans to release an updated and VSI-branded
kit?
There will be a Notes kit for X86.
--
-- Rob
k***@gmail.com
2021-05-16 15:21:24 UTC
Reply
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-----Original Message-----
Brooks via Info-vax
Sent: May-15-21 10:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Info-vax] What's up with DECUS HTNotes ?
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Whether VSI acquired the source code to Notes from then-HP? And if VSI
did acquire the source code, whether VSI plans to release an updated
and VSI-branded kit?
There will be a Notes kit for X86.
Excellent!

My personal view is that with all the concerns regarding Facebook and other
web-based internet sharing of personal data with external parties, there
will be a place in the future for additional forms of group communications
and collaboration that are not shared with external parties.

For those not familiar with VMSnotes, a bit of history:
<https://thoughtsofanidlemind.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/vaxnotes.pdf>
<https://thoughtsofanidlemind.com/2012/12/14/vax-notes/>

Regards,

Kerry Main
Kerry dot main at starkgaming dot com
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
Arne Vajhøj
2021-05-16 19:01:27 UTC
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Post by k***@gmail.com
Brooks via Info-vax
There will be a Notes kit for X86.
Excellent!
My personal view is that with all the concerns regarding Facebook and other
web-based internet sharing of personal data with external parties, there
will be a place in the future for additional forms of group communications
and collaboration that are not shared with external parties.
There is certainly a need for internal forums.

I would expect most mid size to large companies having one.

But using web technology aka access via browser and
HTTP will typical make sense as it supports Windows,
macOS, Linux, Android and iOS with no extra effort.

And there are plenty of forum solutions based on
web technology available. Dozens maybe hundreds.
Many of them pretty feature rich.

For various reasons a huge part of them are written
in PHP and may require MySQL as database.

But PHP and MySQL are available on VMS.

To me Notes is product mostly relevant for those
that are running it today and don't want to migrate.

Arne
Simon Clubley
2021-05-17 12:20:25 UTC
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Post by k***@gmail.com
My personal view is that with all the concerns regarding Facebook and other
web-based internet sharing of personal data with external parties, there
will be a place in the future for additional forms of group communications
and collaboration that are not shared with external parties.
What makes you think that Notes is in any way viable for that, given
all the other established options that exist ?

What does Notes bring to the table that the established options do not ?

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
k***@gmail.com
2021-05-17 23:02:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
-----Original Message-----
via Info-vax
Sent: May-17-21 9:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Info-vax] What's up with DECUS HTNotes ?
Post by k***@gmail.com
My personal view is that with all the concerns regarding Facebook and
other web-based internet sharing of personal data with external
parties, there will be a place in the future for additional forms of
group communications and collaboration that are not shared with external
parties.
What makes you think that Notes is in any way viable for that, given all
the
other established options that exist ?
What does Notes bring to the table that the established options do not ?
Simon.
As previously stated, there are numerous different collaboration COTS
products available today with lots of wiz bang features that integrate with
most of the external popular environments like FB, Twitter etc.

A few notes on this:

Some of these COTS collaboration products are not cheap or they are not ad
free, or they make you sign a non-disclosure that says you agree to let the
vendor scan your content to share extracts with their partner (e.g. Google
products).

Re: - integration with FB, Twitter, and others etc. I suspect that many
folks could not care less about integration with FB, Twitter etc.

They only want simple, reliable, and as viewed today, very basic,
collaboration tools that are available at very low cost (or free) that are
ad free, secure, highly available, data is backed up and that does not share
any data with any external party.

Imho, these users are likely ok with having authenticated users (not noname)
to assist moderators that follow guiding principle of previously agreed upon
rules of conduct.

Re: features - Caveat ... I am not a big user of newsgroup readers, but in
terms of features, the one thing of Notes that I always liked was the "Next
Unseen" feature. This is where you connect to a conference and by hitting
Next Unseen, you are only presented with the notes from the many threads in
the conference that you have not read yet. You could also set a thread topic
to follow, where updates to that thread were automatically emailed to you.
This might exist in various news readers today, but it is one feature of
Notes that I always liked.

And likely most here know this, but there are Windows and web based front
ends to Notes available today.
<https://eisner.decus.org/>


Regards,

Kerry Main
Kerry dot main at starkgaming dot com
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
Arne Vajhøj
2021-05-17 23:39:42 UTC
Reply
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Post by k***@gmail.com
As previously stated, there are numerous different collaboration COTS
products available today with lots of wiz bang features that integrate with
most of the external popular environments like FB, Twitter etc.
Some of these COTS collaboration products are not cheap or they are not ad
free, or they make you sign a non-disclosure that says you agree to let the
vendor scan your content to share extracts with their partner (e.g. Google
products).
Re: - integration with FB, Twitter, and others etc. I suspect that many
folks could not care less about integration with FB, Twitter etc.
They only want simple, reliable, and as viewed today, very basic,
collaboration tools that are available at very low cost (or free) that are
ad free, secure, highly available, data is backed up and that does not share
any data with any external party.
The typical web forum:
* is free
* does not require FB or similar integration
* does not share data

There must be dozens of such products typical based on PHP and MySQL.
Independent web applications or WordPress plugins. Some of them are
widely used.

VSI chose phpBB so someone at VSI may have confidence in that
particular product, but there are plenty of other

Arne
Stephen Hoffman
2021-05-19 15:48:42 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
There must be dozens of such products typical based on PHP and MySQL.
Independent web applications or WordPress plugins. Some of them are
widely used.
Easily.

Outside of some fixes, Notes hasn't been updated in ~30 years. Notes
has some gaps within it currently provides too, not the least of which
is a lack of TLS support. Outside of too few pre-millennials and any
existing installs, the market for new Notes installs is going to be
negligible. I like Notes. It was a great product for its time. But it's
comparatively limited for what it provides, and details such as dealing
with line wrapping gets old.

Off the top, some of the many alternatives:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elgg_(software)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastodon_(software)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaspora_(social_network)
https://nextcloud.com
And this ignores the many CMS and CRM packages, which can directly
replace what various folks have used Notes for.

As for ease-of-use, I'm working with NAS boxes that offer an optional
chat server, and optional WordPress and Joomla and vtiger CRM among
various other packages, as well as a wide variety of other services.
All embedded in a dedicated box.
https://www.synology.com/en-us/dsm/packages

And these options and alternatives before we start discussing
information storage and information access, among the various areas
where Notes is most charitably considered to be weak. Though Notes can
be better than burying organizational information in mail files.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2021-05-18 13:20:09 UTC
Reply
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Post by k***@gmail.com
Re: features - Caveat ... I am not a big user of newsgroup readers, but in
terms of features, the one thing of Notes that I always liked was the "Next
Unseen" feature.
Life is WAY too short to use a newsreader which does not have that
feature. It is one of the main things which distinguishes actually
reading usenet productively from just pointing a browser at some text
file. :-)

I'm using NEWSRDER on VMS, right now on a VT320 but often in a DECterm.
It has an interface similar to VMS MAIL. Using that newsreader has
literally given me several years more of life due to time not wasted.
Post by k***@gmail.com
This is where you connect to a conference and by hitting
Next Unseen, you are only presented with the notes from the many threads in
the conference that you have not read yet.
Right, and one reason why typical forum software is decades behind what
was available on the VAX a quarter of a century ago.

Add to that the ability to mark an entire thread as seen, to crosspost
where there is only one actual article (so marked as seen in all groups
if read or marked as such in one), to pop the user into their favourite
editor, and so on.
hb
2021-05-16 08:00:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Robert A. Brooks
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by k***@gmail.com
Not related to original q, but I tried installing htnotes_021b3.zip on
latest VSI OpenVMS V8.4-2L3 on rx2600.
$  cc/version
VSI C V7.4-001 on OpenVMS IA64 V8.4-2L3
Followed install notes, but I get an error on the last build statement in
the build section
$ link/exe=[.client] [.client]ht_client, [.source]ht_client.opt/opt
sys$library:notes$share/share
%ILINK-W-COMPWARN, compilation warnings
shareable image: SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]NOTES$SHARE.EXE;1
Also, I'm surprised to see a DEC product shipped with user visible
compiler warnings in the product...
It was probably freeware at that point; not a saleable product.
A shareable image should never be built with compiler warnings, even
if it's a free product . . .
Notes was pulled into OpenVMS development after its cancellation as a
product, due to the use of Notes by OpenVMS.
This once I was able to locate the source code, and to also acquire the
Notes patches that had become available.
One of the other developers took it on at the time and had sorted out
various issues, though there were other... complications.
https://www.digiater.nl/openvms/freeware/v70/notes/
https://www.digiater.nl/openvms/freeware/v70/notes_ft/
Based solely on the version numbers and the Itanium, that looks like the
"beta" kit.
And given that's a warning, not an error, either ignore it or patch the
shareable to remove the there-be-build-errors flag, if it bothers you.
Whether VSI acquired the source code to Notes from then-HP? And if VSI
did acquire the source code, whether VSI plans to release an updated and
VSI-branded kit?
The linker issued a warning, not an error.

Without a linker map of NOTES$SHARE you do not know what kind of
link-time warning that was. It could be that one (or more) module(s)
have compile-time warnings. It could be that the linker could not
resolve one (or more) symbol(s). In case of compile-time warnings,
without the compiler listings, you do not know what kind of warnings
that were.

In both cases, when linking the main image, the linker issues a COMPWARN.

You probably know, that you can ignore the link-time warning and (try
to) run the image. It will be activated regardless of the warning(s).
Whether it works is a different question.

Unrelated, you will get an EOMWARN signaled from lib$find_image_symbol
if you try to find a symbol in the activated shareable image.

You can patch the (main and) shareable image with PATCH/ABSOLUTE to set
the completion code to SUCCESS. ANALYZE/IMAGE is your friend. You can
overwrite the link-time warning of an IA64 image with "SET IMAGE/SUCCESS".

PS: The version of the C compiler doesn't matter, here.
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