Discussion:
Open Source on OpenVMS Conference Call - 08:00 EDT 16 Sep 2021
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p***@ccsscorp.com
2021-09-10 00:58:57 UTC
Permalink
The next conference call for the Open Source on OpenVMS community is
scheduled for Thursday, 16 September at 08:00 EDT.

Brett Cameron, VMS Software Inc. Chief Solutions Officer, will be joining us
to discuss recent open source releases as well as upcoming packages. We
will also discuss and explore with Brett how the Open Source On OpenVMS
community can get involved with efforts in this arena. Over the past few
years Bill Pedersen has worked with VSI and Brett providing insight and
demonstrable technology in the porting of the most recent versions of Samba
and soon to be available PostgreSQL I64.

This conference call is hosted, courtesy of Jouk Jansen on
<https://gavotte.nano.tudelft.nl:8443/OpenVMS> Jitsi.

You can review prior call here
<https://sourceforge.net/p/vms-ports/discussion/call_topics/> .

We hope to have your involvement and participation!!!

Thank you!

Best,
Bill.

Bill Pedersen
864 490 8863
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2021-09-10 04:40:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@ccsscorp.com
The next conference call for the Open Source on OpenVMS community is
scheduled for Thursday, 16 September at 08:00 EDT.
We hope to have your involvement and participation!!!
I hope to find the time to participate more in the future, not just in
the conference call but also actually doing something.

Something to think about: LaTeX and associated software is used by a
huge number of people. Much of it was developed on VMS. (Leslie
Lamport wrote it while at DEC, but perhaps in Tops-20 and not VMS. In
any case, along with (UN)ZIP it is one of the most portable programs.)
It is still under active development and, amazingly, is better at many
things than more modern software. I'm still using a [TEXMF...] tree
put together by Ralf Gärtner from a freeware disk from a quarter of a
century ago. From time to time I've added some missing packages and so
on, and it is good enough. However, it would be nice to be able to
easily update it, or even do a fresh install.

Two approaches are worth considering. One would be getting the TeXLive
distribution to build out of the box on VMS. The other would be to have
a minimal distribution which would automatically fetch anything found to
be missing from a CTAN mirror somewhere.
Joukj
2021-09-10 09:17:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by p***@ccsscorp.com
The next conference call for the Open Source on OpenVMS community is
scheduled for Thursday, 16 September at 08:00 EDT.
We hope to have your involvement and participation!!!
I hope to find the time to participate more in the future, not just in
the conference call but also actually doing something.
Something to think about: LaTeX and associated software is used by a
huge number of people. Much of it was developed on VMS. (Leslie
Lamport wrote it while at DEC, but perhaps in Tops-20 and not VMS. In
any case, along with (UN)ZIP it is one of the most portable programs.)
It is still under active development and, amazingly, is better at many
things than more modern software. I'm still using a [TEXMF...] tree
put together by Ralf Gärtner from a freeware disk from a quarter of a
century ago. From time to time I've added some missing packages and so
on, and it is good enough. However, it would be nice to be able to
easily update it, or even do a fresh install.
Two approaches are worth considering. One would be getting the TeXLive
distribution to build out of the box on VMS. The other would be to have
a minimal distribution which would automatically fetch anything found to
be missing from a CTAN mirror somewhere.
Good idea Phillip. Texlive on OpenVMS would be best, since than it will
be "compatible" with linux systems and one will be able to exchange all
documents.Writing documents is always collaborating with others
(probably not on OpenVMS)

Hope to "see" you next thursday.


Jouk
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2021-09-10 10:46:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joukj
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Two approaches are worth considering. One would be getting the TeXLive
distribution to build out of the box on VMS. The other would be to have
a minimal distribution which would automatically fetch anything found to
be missing from a CTAN mirror somewhere.
Good idea Phillip. Texlive on OpenVMS would be best, since than it will
be "compatible" with linux systems
I looked at this a while back and seemed to remember that various GNU
utilities were used for packaging and so on. Probably most of those
(and other non-GNU third-party stuff such as (UN)ZIP) run on VMS, so I
don't think that it is a big problem. Disk are cheap these days, so it
shouldn't be a problem to have the whole distribution locally. It is
pruned down to fit on a DVD, though; there is more at CTAN (mostly
documentation and fonts which most users don't need). Apparently there
are some low-bandwidth users who prefer the DVD rather than downloading
from CTAN.
Post by Joukj
and one will be able to exchange all
documents.Writing documents is always collaborating with others
(probably not on OpenVMS)
Once LaTeX is up and running on VMS, compatibility is not a problem.
I've been using LaTeX on VMS for almost 30 years and it is no problem to
process a document from elsewhere or have someone process my documents.
I convert to PostScript then to PDF and both of those are portable
formats. So both input and output formats are portable. The problem is
an inital install on VMS, and some sort of automatic update. The
freeware CD with [TEXMF...] put together by Ralf Gärtner might be a good
starting point.

One caveat is that TeX has now forked and there are various versions
(though not allowed to be called TeX). One has better justification.
(Knuth's---good---idea was that a given input document should always
produce identical output with TeX, which is why some variations can't be
called TeX). One allows UTF-8 input characters. That might be a
problem on VMS. DEC MCS is pretty close, but probably not close enough.
But the conventional TeX with only 7-bit-ASCII input is still supported.
Arne Vajhøj
2021-09-10 12:49:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by p***@ccsscorp.com
The next conference call for the Open Source on OpenVMS community is
scheduled for Thursday, 16 September at 08:00 EDT.
We hope to have your involvement and participation!!!
I hope to find the time to participate more in the future, not just in
the conference call but also actually doing something.
Something to think about: LaTeX and associated software is used by a
huge number of people.
Depends on what you consider huge number.

There must be hundreds of thousands of people using Tex/LaTex at
universities particular at math and natural sciences departments.

But there are billions of people using MS Office, LibreOffice,
Google Docs etc..
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Much of it was developed on VMS. (Leslie
Lamport wrote it while at DEC, but perhaps in Tops-20 and not VMS. In
any case, along with (UN)ZIP it is one of the most portable programs.)
It is still under active development and, amazingly, is better at many
things than more modern software. I'm still using a [TEXMF...] tree
put together by Ralf Gärtner from a freeware disk from a quarter of a
century ago. From time to time I've added some missing packages and so
on, and it is good enough. However, it would be nice to be able to
easily update it, or even do a fresh install.
Two approaches are worth considering. One would be getting the TeXLive
distribution to build out of the box on VMS. The other would be to have
a minimal distribution which would automatically fetch anything found to
be missing from a CTAN mirror somewhere.
Pascal or C version of the tools?

Arne
John Dallman
2021-09-10 19:47:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Something to think about: LaTeX and associated software is used
by a huge number of people.
Depends on what you consider huge number.
There must be hundreds of thousands of people using Tex/LaTex at
universities particular at math and natural sciences departments.
But there are billions of people using MS Office, LibreOffice,
Google Docs etc..
Pick the low-hanging fruit first? Getting LaTeX going will be
substantially simpler than porting Libre Office or a full-fat web browser.


John
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2021-09-11 10:55:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Dallman
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Something to think about: LaTeX and associated software is used
by a huge number of people.
Depends on what you consider huge number.
There must be hundreds of thousands of people using Tex/LaTex at
universities particular at math and natural sciences departments.
But there are billions of people using MS Office, LibreOffice,
Google Docs etc..
Pick the low-hanging fruit first? Getting LaTeX going will be
substantially simpler than porting Libre Office or a full-fat web browser.
Indeed.
Bill Gunshannon
2021-09-11 12:27:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Dallman
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Something to think about: LaTeX and associated software is used
by a huge number of people.
Depends on what you consider huge number.
There must be hundreds of thousands of people using Tex/LaTex at
universities particular at math and natural sciences departments.
But there are billions of people using MS Office, LibreOffice,
Google Docs etc..
Pick the low-hanging fruit first? Getting LaTeX going will be
substantially simpler than porting Libre Office or a full-fat web browser.
Only real problem with that is no one in academia is still using VMS.
And updating Tex/LaTex (yes, updating as it was always available on
VMS in the past) is not going to bring anyone back.

bill
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2021-09-11 12:37:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Dallman
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Something to think about: LaTeX and associated software is used
by a huge number of people.
Depends on what you consider huge number.
There must be hundreds of thousands of people using Tex/LaTex at
universities particular at math and natural sciences departments.
But there are billions of people using MS Office, LibreOffice,
Google Docs etc..
Pick the low-hanging fruit first? Getting LaTeX going will be
substantially simpler than porting Libre Office or a full-fat web browser.
Only real problem with that is no one in academia is still using VMS. And
updating Tex/LaTex (yes, updating as it was always available on
VMS in the past) is not going to bring anyone back.
bill
My *guess* is that there are way better and more efficient LaTeX tools
available for common desktop systems today, Windows, Linux or some Mac.
More then 99% of the LaTeX users probably have one of these already.

I have a very hard time seing why LaTeX should have any priority for VMS.
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2021-09-11 12:55:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
My *guess* is that there are way better and more efficient LaTeX tools
available for common desktop systems today, Windows, Linux or some Mac.
More then 99% of the LaTeX users probably have one of these already.
Not tools, just LaTeX itself. EDT is fine as an editor. :-)
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
I have a very hard time seing why LaTeX should have any priority for VMS.
It doesn't have to have a priority, but it would be relatively easy to
do.
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2021-09-11 12:54:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by John Dallman
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Something to think about: LaTeX and associated software is used
by a huge number of people.
Depends on what you consider huge number.
There must be hundreds of thousands of people using Tex/LaTex at
universities particular at math and natural sciences departments.
But there are billions of people using MS Office, LibreOffice,
Google Docs etc..
Pick the low-hanging fruit first? Getting LaTeX going will be
substantially simpler than porting Libre Office or a full-fat web browser.
Only real problem with that is no one in academia is still using VMS.
And updating Tex/LaTex (yes, updating as it was always available on
VMS in the past) is not going to bring anyone back.
Well, I still use it. I'm probably not the only one, but I agree, VMS
is rare in academia these days.

One reason DEC was so successful back in the day is because it was
present in academia. Maybe VSI should try to get that market back, or
at least expand what is left of it by a significant factor.

Alternatively, modern LaTeX on VMS would make it easier for non-academic
users to use LaTeX.
Bill Gunshannon
2021-09-11 13:10:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by John Dallman
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Something to think about: LaTeX and associated software is used
by a huge number of people.
Depends on what you consider huge number.
There must be hundreds of thousands of people using Tex/LaTex at
universities particular at math and natural sciences departments.
But there are billions of people using MS Office, LibreOffice,
Google Docs etc..
Pick the low-hanging fruit first? Getting LaTeX going will be
substantially simpler than porting Libre Office or a full-fat web browser.
Only real problem with that is no one in academia is still using VMS.
And updating Tex/LaTex (yes, updating as it was always available on
VMS in the past) is not going to bring anyone back.
Well, I still use it. I'm probably not the only one, but I agree, VMS
is rare in academia these days.
And what part of academia are you in? Does your University have VMS
machines in its data center? I used VMS right up until the pushed me
out the door at my University. Sadly, that did not constitute use
of VMS in academia.
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
One reason DEC was so successful back in the day is because it was
present in academia. Maybe VSI should try to get that market back, or
at least expand what is left of it by a significant factor.
Snowballs chance in hell. What possible reason would they have to go
back to VMS now? What academic tools (SPSS, Matlab, etc.) are even
still available on VMS? The days of Professors writting their own
applications iun Fortran and Pascal are long past.
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Alternatively, modern LaTeX on VMS would make it easier for non-academic
users to use LaTeX.
Why on earth would any non-academic want to use Latex? A more likely
scenario is that academia will stop requiring Latex and go with DOCX
like everyone else in the world.

bill
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2021-09-11 16:04:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Post by John Dallman
Pick the low-hanging fruit first? Getting LaTeX going will be
substantially simpler than porting Libre Office or a full-fat web browser.
Only real problem with that is no one in academia is still using VMS.
And updating Tex/LaTex (yes, updating as it was always available on
VMS in the past) is not going to bring anyone back.
Well, I still use it. I'm probably not the only one, but I agree, VMS
is rare in academia these days.
And what part of academia are you in? Does your University have VMS
machines in its data center? I used VMS right up until the pushed me
out the door at my University. Sadly, that did not constitute use
of VMS in academia.
I consider myself part of academia, but use VMS at home. :-)
Post by Bill Gunshannon
Why on earth would any non-academic want to use Latex?
Because it's better.
Post by Bill Gunshannon
A more likely
scenario is that academia will stop requiring Latex and go with DOCX
like everyone else in the world.
Unlikely. At least in some fields, essentially all articles are written
in LaTeX.
Lawrence D’Oliveiro
2021-09-22 07:40:18 UTC
Permalink
A more likely scenario is that academia will stop requiring Latex and go with DOCX
like everyone else in the world.
Please, not that nonstandard “standard” that is ISO 29500 that nobody is actually able to implement correctly, not even Microsoft!

Jupyter notebooks are quite popular in certain circles, as a teaching and research tool. They have in-built interactivity, and do a decent rendition of mathematical formulas, as well as embedding of other media types. And they can include code in a range of languages, not just Python.
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2021-09-22 07:58:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Gunshannon
A more likely scenario is that academia will stop requiring Latex and go
with DOCX
like everyone else in the world.
Please, not that nonstandard \_standard_/ that is ISO 29500
that nobody is actually able to implement correctly, not even Microsoft!
I seriously doubt that many fields of academia (physics, maths, etc.)
will abandon LaTeX for DOCX.

Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2021-09-11 10:55:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Something to think about: LaTeX and associated software is used by a
huge number of people.
Depends on what you consider huge number.
There must be hundreds of thousands of people using Tex/LaTex at
universities particular at math and natural sciences departments.
True. However, probably more people use LaTeX than, say, Python.
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Two approaches are worth considering. One would be getting the TeXLive
distribution to build out of the box on VMS. The other would be to have
a minimal distribution which would automatically fetch anything found to
be missing from a CTAN mirror somewhere.
Pascal or C version of the tools?
I think that the C version of TeX is officially compatible to the
original. On the other hand, on VMS there is no reason not to use
Pascal.
Arne Vajhøj
2021-09-11 17:41:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Something to think about: LaTeX and associated software is used by a
huge number of people.
Depends on what you consider huge number.
There must be hundreds of thousands of people using Tex/LaTex at
universities particular at math and natural sciences departments.
True. However, probably more people use LaTeX than, say, Python.
Not likely.

Number of Python developers is usually estimated around 10 million.

Arne
Simon Clubley
2021-09-12 13:25:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Something to think about: LaTeX and associated software is used by a
huge number of people.
Depends on what you consider huge number.
There must be hundreds of thousands of people using Tex/LaTex at
universities particular at math and natural sciences departments.
True. However, probably more people use LaTeX than, say, Python.
Not likely.
Number of Python developers is usually estimated around 10 million.
And to expand on that, there are a lot more people using Python than
some people might think because Python is used as the scripting language
in a number of major applications.

These applications have a scripting language built in to allow automation
of some functionality and to allow people to add new features to the
application.

For example, one such major application is Blender:

https://docs.blender.org/api/current/info_overview.html

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
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