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[Totally OT] Covid-19, was: Re: Creating an open source version of VMS, was: Re: OpenVMS Hobbyist Notification
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Simon Clubley
2020-03-13 13:17:04 UTC
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For those of us that survive 2020.
I was reluctant to raise this, given that it is totally off topic,
but it affects everyone here and I was wondering what the situation
is really like on the ground around the planet compared to what the
media are and are not reporting.

I've marked the thread as off-topic and started a new thread so that
it's easy to kill file or skip over.

Here in Northern England in the UK, there's a lot of low-level concern
but not a massive amount of panic buying yet (apart from the various
hand gels). There is some concern that the UK government is not reacting
strongly enough or quickly enough yet and there's a real feeling that
things could escalate out of control over the coming weeks due to that.

How are things in your part of the planet ?

$ set response/mode=good_natured

Anyone know if there are any open positions at the IceCube lab ? :-)

Thanks,

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
John Reagan
2020-03-13 13:30:13 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
How are things in your part of the planet ?
Here in NH, there are a handful of positive cases; more across the border in MA. At the stores, no hand gels, rush on toilet paper, etc. I've stayed home more lately but I had a migraine last week and just wanted the quiet. I do have a few extra cans/tins of food in the pantry and extra in the freezer, but I'm not hoarding anything. (does wine count?)

I have found the https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/ subreddit to be a good source of news that seems to be fair as much as anything can be.

Just washing my hands more often (I have BLISS under my fingernails)
Arne Vajhøj
2020-03-13 13:38:01 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
For those of us that survive 2020.
I was reluctant to raise this, given that it is totally off topic,
but it affects everyone here and I was wondering what the situation
is really like on the ground around the planet compared to what the
media are and are not reporting.
I've marked the thread as off-topic and started a new thread so that
it's easy to kill file or skip over.
Here in Northern England in the UK, there's a lot of low-level concern
but not a massive amount of panic buying yet (apart from the various
hand gels). There is some concern that the UK government is not reacting
strongly enough or quickly enough yet and there's a real feeling that
things could escalate out of control over the coming weeks due to that.
How are things in your part of the planet ?
I follow US, Denmark, Poland and Italy pretty close.

And the pictures seems very similar across:

* Most orgs are ordering IT people and other "paper pushers" to
work from home
* Many schools and universities are closed
* Many places has put restrictions on public gatherings
prohibiting either >1000 or >100 people
* Travel had come to a total standstill: some countries
does not allow entry, companies are cancelling business
travel, airlines are cancelling flights, people do not
want to travel
* politicians like to go on TV and pretend they can control
the situation
* people are stocking up on supplies, but true panic is
rare

Arne
Simon Clubley
2020-03-13 18:26:13 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
Here in Northern England in the UK, there's a lot of low-level concern
but not a massive amount of panic buying yet (apart from the various
hand gels). There is some concern that the UK government is not reacting
strongly enough or quickly enough yet and there's a real feeling that
things could escalate out of control over the coming weeks due to that.
How are things in your part of the planet ?
I follow US, Denmark, Poland and Italy pretty close.
* Most orgs are ordering IT people and other "paper pushers" to
work from home
* Many schools and universities are closed
* Many places has put restrictions on public gatherings
prohibiting either >1000 or >100 people
The UK government hasn't started to implement proper "social distancing"
measures yet and that's starting to make some people nervous because the
argument is that by the time it becomes _really_ obvious such measures
are required then the effectiveness of such measures may be reduced if
only implemented at that time.
Post by Arne Vajhøj
* Travel had come to a total standstill: some countries
does not allow entry, companies are cancelling business
travel, airlines are cancelling flights, people do not
want to travel
* politicians like to go on TV and pretend they can control
the situation
* people are stocking up on supplies, but true panic is
rare
Outside of the hand gels, I've seen some small bits of panic buying
but I've not yet seen anything like what you see in TV reports from
the US when a hurricane is about to hit.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2020-03-13 23:06:20 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
Here in Northern England in the UK, there's a lot of low-level concern
but not a massive amount of panic buying yet (apart from the various
hand gels). There is some concern that the UK government is not reacting
strongly enough or quickly enough yet and there's a real feeling that
things could escalate out of control over the coming weeks due to that.
How are things in your part of the planet ?
I follow US, Denmark, Poland and Italy pretty close.
* Most orgs are ordering IT people and other "paper pushers" to
work from home
* Many schools and universities are closed
* Many places has put restrictions on public gatherings
prohibiting either >1000 or >100 people
The UK government hasn't started to implement proper "social distancing"
measures yet and that's starting to make some people nervous because the
argument is that by the time it becomes _really_ obvious such measures
are required then the effectiveness of such measures may be reduced if
only implemented at that time.
Post by Arne Vajhøj
* Travel had come to a total standstill: some countries
does not allow entry, companies are cancelling business
travel, airlines are cancelling flights, people do not
want to travel
* politicians like to go on TV and pretend they can control
the situation
* people are stocking up on supplies, but true panic is
rare
Outside of the hand gels, I've seen some small bits of panic buying
but I've not yet seen anything like what you see in TV reports from
the US when a hurricane is about to hit.
Simon.
Today (Friday) all hand gel and toilet paper was sold out in my
home town (Söderköping, for those knowing east Sweden). Weird,
since thay will stock up on Monday again anyway...

Panic is a larger risk then the Corona virus itself.
Bill Gunshannon
2020-03-14 00:04:14 UTC
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Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Panic is a larger risk then the Corona virus itself.
That is the big problem and the media is doing their best to fan it.
After all, their real purpose is to make money, not inform anyone.

bill
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2020-03-14 07:44:06 UTC
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Post by Bill Gunshannon
That is the big problem and the media is doing their best to fan it.
After all, their real purpose is to make money, not inform anyone.
Fox News? Yes. Non-profit news outlets? No.
seasoned_geek
2020-03-14 12:00:14 UTC
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Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Bill Gunshannon
That is the big problem and the media is doing their best to fan it.
After all, their real purpose is to make money, not inform anyone.
Fox News? Yes. Non-profit news outlets? No.
Even non-profits are for profits. The higher the ratings go the higher the donations go and the more the CEO can earn.
Dave Froble
2020-03-13 19:28:29 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
For those of us that survive 2020.
I was reluctant to raise this, given that it is totally off topic,
but it affects everyone here and I was wondering what the situation
is really like on the ground around the planet compared to what the
media are and are not reporting.
I've marked the thread as off-topic and started a new thread so that
it's easy to kill file or skip over.
Here in Northern England in the UK, there's a lot of low-level concern
but not a massive amount of panic buying yet (apart from the various
hand gels). There is some concern that the UK government is not reacting
strongly enough or quickly enough yet and there's a real feeling that
things could escalate out of control over the coming weeks due to that.
How are things in your part of the planet ?
I follow US, Denmark, Poland and Italy pretty close.
* Most orgs are ordering IT people and other "paper pushers" to
work from home
There are multiple benefits from this, but, it's not always optimal.
Post by Arne Vajhøj
* Many schools and universities are closed
We are at the point where much education does not require gatherings.
However, as with many things, there are those who mis-use things, and
will cry "foul" when their mis-use is gored.

One example is people who consider school a child care system. It
isn't, but some use it as such.
Post by Arne Vajhøj
* Many places has put restrictions on public gatherings
prohibiting either >1000 or >100 people
Under special circumstances this is the correct thing to do. Disease
respects no boundaries, or freedoms, or anything else.
Post by Arne Vajhøj
* Travel had come to a total standstill: some countries
does not allow entry, companies are cancelling business
travel, airlines are cancelling flights, people do not
want to travel
See special circumstances above.
Post by Arne Vajhøj
* politicians like to go on TV and pretend they can control
the situation
Politicians are almost always "theater"
Post by Arne Vajhøj
* people are stocking up on supplies, but true panic is
rare
I live out in the boonies and am not normally around people. Yes, there
is the requirement of shopping. I think. Amazon wants to deliver with
drones.

This current problem is not new. When I was young, STDs were not a
major issue. Then along came AIDS and such. People have for the most
part learned that when one sleeps with another, they also are sleeping
with all other contacts, and all their contacts, and such. One could
argue that you're sleeping with most of the world. Then there was other
things, such as SARS.

Aviation and travel continues to grow. One reads about future aircraft,
pilot, and such needing to grow to meet the ever increasing demand.
More and more people are traveling, and traveling often. With something
as contagious as Covid-19, this quickly becomes a distribution network
that reaches everywhere on the planet.

We need to start thinking of solutions. I seem to recall that travel to
some locations requires one to have certain immunizations up to date.
Perhaps more will be needed in today's and tomorrow's world. Perhaps
certain type of testing should be mandatory for all travelers. Catch
one person infected, and you can stop it there, before it becomes many.

I think containment is a decent solution. At least one we can implement
today. If the human race is going to continue to globetrot, it should
consider the problems and start to plan methods to address contagious
diseases.

You never know when one might come along that is 100% fatal.

One thing pointed out is the number of deaths each year from flu. A
better plan could also reduce this.

Maybe give up handshakes and resort to a small bow, or such.
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2020-03-13 21:01:24 UTC
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Post by Dave Froble
Post by Arne Vajhøj
* Most orgs are ordering IT people and other "paper pushers" to
work from home
There are multiple benefits from this, but, it's not always optimal.
If it were, it would be standard. However, under the circumstances,
those who can work from home are lucky. (Depending on your job and
where you live, you might continue to get paid if you stay home even if
you don't work.)
Post by Dave Froble
One example is people who consider school a child care system. It
isn't, but some use it as such.
Really? In most places, children are required to go to school. I don't
think that one can criticize anyone for planning on their children being
in school during certain times.
Post by Dave Froble
This current problem is not new. When I was young, STDs were not a
major issue. Then along came AIDS and such. People have for the most
part learned that when one sleeps with another, they also are sleeping
with all other contacts, and all their contacts, and such. One could
argue that you're sleeping with most of the world.
STDs are really quite different than COVID-19. It is very hard to get
most STDs. Even for most kinds of sex the risk of HIV infection is
small. COVID-19 is much more serious.
Post by Dave Froble
Aviation and travel continues to grow. One reads about future aircraft,
pilot, and such needing to grow to meet the ever increasing demand.
More and more people are traveling, and traveling often. With something
as contagious as Covid-19, this quickly becomes a distribution network
that reaches everywhere on the planet.
True, but remember the plague? Killed, what, one-third of the
population? No planes back then, and no travel faster than a horse;
most travel was on foot.
Post by Dave Froble
We need to start thinking of solutions. I seem to recall that travel to
some locations requires one to have certain immunizations up to date.
That works as long as one is dealing with diseases against which
immunizations exist.
Post by Dave Froble
Perhaps more will be needed in today's and tomorrow's world. Perhaps
certain type of testing should be mandatory for all travelers. Catch
one person infected, and you can stop it there, before it becomes many.
There should be much more of it. One reason it doesn't happen is
because of resistance of people who see it as infringing their freedom.
People, your freedom stops where it affects someone else's freedom, such
as their freedom from disease.
Post by Dave Froble
One thing pointed out is the number of deaths each year from flu. A
better plan could also reduce this.
The "regular" flu has killed more people this year than COVID-19.
(However, that is not a reason to downplay COVID-19; it is much more
contagious, and we don't know how it will develop. Like a sniper on the
loose, knowing that more people will die of the flu, or in traffic
accidents, before he is killed or captured doesn't mean that one
shouldn't report on him and try to protect oneself from him.) There are
probably two main reasons that it is so many. First, many people think
that they have had the flu, but they actually haven't. Some aren't
sure. (The flu is like an orgasm: if you aren't sure whether you've had
it, you haven't.) Thus, they tend to vastly underestimate the
seriousness of the disease, until they get it. Second, many people
don't get vaccinated because they think that vaccines cause autism, or
are a scam so that big pharma can earn easy money, or whatever.
(Frankly, I have little problem with such people getting the disease for
which they refuse a vaccination; the problem is that they infect other
people.)
seasoned_geek
2020-03-14 01:04:49 UTC
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Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
it, you haven't.) Thus, they tend to vastly underestimate the
seriousness of the disease, until they get it. Second, many people
don't get vaccinated because they think that vaccines cause autism, or
are a scam so that big pharma can earn easy money, or whatever.
(Frankly, I have little problem with such people getting the disease for
which they refuse a vaccination; the problem is that they infect other
people.)
I actually don't get the flu vaccination because I got it twice in my late twenties when everyone was told to and both times I got soooooo sick within 2 days I thought I was going to die. I actually would have went to ER the second time but I was just too sick to make the call.

Any time I've gotten the flu it has never been even a quarter as severe.

No, I'm not allergic to eggs, I eat them all the time. There's just something in that vaccine that tries to kill me. I have a higher percentage chance of survival without the shot.
seasoned_geek
2020-03-14 01:09:12 UTC
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Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Dave Froble
One example is people who consider school a child care system. It
isn't, but some use it as such.
Really? In most places, children are required to go to school. I don't
think that one can criticize anyone for planning on their children being
in school during certain times.
I believe he is talking about parents who enroll their kids in before/after school programs so they won't have to pay for daycare. Most school days start after parents leave for work and end well before they get home otherwise. It's basically been institutionalized in Chicago.
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2020-03-14 07:50:02 UTC
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Post by seasoned_geek
I believe he is talking about parents who enroll their kids in
before/after school programs so they won't have to pay for daycare.
Most school days start after parents leave for work and end well before
they get home otherwise. It's basically been institutionalized in
Chicago.
Pay for daycare? Right, free daycare would be socialism, and so people
vote for Trump rather than Bernie. Got it.
seasoned_geek
2020-03-14 12:24:51 UTC
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Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by seasoned_geek
I believe he is talking about parents who enroll their kids in
before/after school programs so they won't have to pay for daycare.
Most school days start after parents leave for work and end well before
they get home otherwise. It's basically been institutionalized in
Chicago.
Pay for daycare? Right, free daycare would be socialism, and so people
vote for Trump rather than Bernie. Got it.
No, it's a much bigger problem than that. Parents (and I use that term loosely, biological procreation units would be more accurate) are the absolute worst. They think their only job is to have the kids. After they they it's the government's job to raise them because they are far too busy having a life to actually be parents. The entire universe is supposed to raise their child while they go golfing and shopping and hanging out with friends. Neither of them is supposed to actually stay home and raise the child, that's the government's job. The government is supposed to automatically block all content on television and radio they don't want their kids to hear because they certainly can't be sitting around watching television with the kids they had.

These biological procreation units insist on bringing their screaming, squalling petri dishes of the WHO's hundred most deadly diseases on mega cruise ships where all of the lower decks are sealed, having recycled air like a plane. Once they set foot on board the kids are instantly dropped off with the activities people only to be seen at meal time for the rest of the cruise.

And of course we will not bring up those inexcusable biological entities who INSIST on bringing an infant that cannot operate its jaw to pop its ears ON A (^(*&)(*&ING AIR PLANE! Forcing those who understand how to properly use birth control to endure exactly the thing they properly use birth control to avoid, AND those inexcusable biological entities want that bundle of auditory torture to fly for free!

It's not a matter of who they vote for despite what you attempt to say. This is fallout from the 1990s where nobody had to take responsibility for anything and biological procreation units adopted that criminal philosophy with gusto. They shouldn't have to alter their lives to actually become parents, they only had to have the kid, after that they weren't responsible.

Culturally, during America's Greatest Generation, if both husband and wife had to work to support their lifestyle or just get by, they didn't have kids. It was socially irresponsible. Today they not only have their kids, they have all of them before getting married so the tax payer has to pick up the tab.

I'm all for a Medicare for All type situation. What I, and most other taxpayers are against is "gaming the system." We are also against biological procreation units bringing infants on airplanes and children on cruises we saved to pay for rather than racking up credit card debt ahead of bankruptcy.

But, I will let Dave speak for himself. <Grin>

Please, before you talk out your ass, during Bernie's last run (his 42nd?) for president I was both a big donor and backer. If Hillary hadn't rigged the primary he would be president now. If Trump had been actually interested in enforcing the law instead of just keeping his own ass out of prison Hillary and the heads of the Democratic party in charge of the primary rigging would have all been put in prison for financial fraud.

Parents in modern America are simply inexcusable entities and "gaming the system" really offends those who both pay taxes and play by the rules.

It's an ethics thing.

We have them, they don't.

Brian_R
2020-03-13 13:38:18 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
I was reluctant to raise this, given that it is totally off topic,
but it affects everyone here and I was wondering what the situation
is really like on the ground around the planet compared to what the
media are and are not reporting.
My viewpoint from the North East of England is that panic buying is pain
in the arse (looking at you elderly lady with 36 rolls of toilet roll and a
trolley full of tins etc.), blitz spirit my arse. Those folks who can just
about afford their weekly groceries are going to end up out of pocket, no
doubt that somewhere, people will be making a killing with this.

Plenty of gallows humour in the office, especially those with diabetes or
other scary health problems.

I suspect that trust is the government is zero, and rapidly declining.

Barring that, as happy as can be....


cheers


Brian
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2020-03-13 14:35:24 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
For those of us that survive 2020.
I was reluctant to raise this, given that it is totally off topic,
but it affects everyone here and I was wondering what the situation
is really like on the ground around the planet compared to what the
media are and are not reporting.
There are those who say that the situation is much, much worse than it
is now, or will soon become so, basically because many people have few
symptoms and thus think that they are not infected and spread it to
others. There are others who say that it's a conspiracy to distract
attention from other things, affect the economy so that Trump loses, and
so on. Often, when an idea is criticized about equally from both sides,
it is pretty much correct.

Yes, total deaths now are not as high as from the normal flu.
(Influenza is like an orgasm---if you aren't sure whether you've had it,
you haven't.) First, that could change soon. Second, imagine a
shooting spree. During the at most few hours until the shooter is
captured or shot, many more people will die in traffic accidents and so
on, but that's neither a reason not to report on it nor a reason not to
protect oneself from it.
Post by Simon Clubley
Here in Northern England in the UK, there's a lot of low-level concern
but not a massive amount of panic buying yet (apart from the various
hand gels). There is some concern that the UK government is not reacting
strongly enough or quickly enough yet and there's a real feeling that
things could escalate out of control over the coming weeks due to that.
I'm waiting for Boris Johnson to blame it on the EU.

The main problem in many places, especially if it spreads quickly, is
that there aren't enough hospital beds.
Post by Simon Clubley
How are things in your part of the planet ?
People are keeping calm and carrying on, taking the necessary
precautions.
Post by Simon Clubley
Anyone know if there are any open positions at the IceCube lab ? :-)
Probably not a good idea, as viruses like cold. (Bacteria, in contrast,
like warmth, which is why one has a refrigerator to keep food fresh.) As
such, public saunas are one of the few places where there might be many
people but the risk of infection is relatively low. Also, public
swimming pools are OK (even more so if the water is warm), as there is
chlorine in the water; one is literally swimming in disinfectant. Of
course, one should keep one's distance here, but it is much less
dangerous than going to a concert, taking public transportation, going
to the cinema, watching a sports match, and so on.
Simon Clubley
2020-03-13 18:38:46 UTC
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Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
The main problem in many places, especially if it spreads quickly, is
that there aren't enough hospital beds.
Indeed. Some people are looking at the relatively low death rate now,
but are not considering the number of people who need advanced critical
care in order to survive it.

Those death rates are likely to go up if the health services get
overwhelmed because there is unlikely to be enough critical care
equipment to meet everyone's needs. I suspect we would be looking
at a triage situation in that case where the goal is to maximise
the number of survivors instead of being able to treat everyone who
would otherwise be able to get advanced treatment and survive.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
t***@frontieranalytical.com
2020-03-13 15:49:48 UTC
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Here in the Republik of Kalifornia, dead center on the hot spot list for the dreaded pandemic, it's business as usual.
Might as well predict a 9.0 earthquake while we're at it.
Toilet paper has pretty much vanished off the shelves at the Costo, Target and WallMart, so has chlorine bleach and hand sanitizer.
Schools are closing, no professional sports, concerts are cancelled, yet lines are just as long at the local restaurants.
It'll be interesting to see how it all pans out, just hope we don't lose too much of the best segment of the population.

'Crabs
seasoned_geek
2020-03-14 00:56:04 UTC
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Post by t***@frontieranalytical.com
Here in the Republik of Kalifornia, dead center on the hot spot list for the dreaded pandemic, it's business as usual.
Might as well predict a 9.0 earthquake while we're at it.
Toilet paper has pretty much vanished off the shelves at the Costo, Target and WallMart, so has chlorine bleach and hand sanitizer.
Schools are closing, no professional sports, concerts are cancelled, yet lines are just as long at the local restaurants.
It'll be interesting to see how it all pans out, just hope we don't lose too much of the best segment of the population.
'Crabs
The biggest problem right now for the left coast according to NPR is the massive homeless population without access to regular bathing/hand washing. Big fears that when it takes root there it will really germinate. A few random cases in the general population with jobs who live indoors not a huge deal. The homeless population, which is large in year round summer locations, will be a true foothold situation. Many have underlying health conditions.

Here in Illinois they just closed all of the schools and asked the churches to close. If you saw the story an infected woman went to a mega church and infected 40 people who went out and infected others.

I'm sitting at home writing two more books now that AGILE book is off to final editor. Kind of glad my Chicago contract fell through as it would suck to be paying for corporate housing and unable to go into work.

Chicago is on its way to becoming the new epicenter for the disease. OHare airport is _such_ a blessing.

I misspoke earlier. The schools are shut down as to Tuesday morning. They are risking contamination on Monday so kids can get enough take home assignments to keep them busy through end of month. School lunch programs can continue to provide food on a delivery or parent pick up basis. I understand the need given the lunch program provides the basic nutrition for many of the kids from poorer families. We throw more food away in America every day than it would take to feed the world, yet we still have a hunger problem.

I watched our governor giving his address yesterday. In just an hour he did more than the president in a month. We went from "fake news" to national emergency in a single week's news cycle.

I did write a couple of blog posts if you feel like being entertained.

http://www.interestingauthors.com/blog/experience/coronavirus/

http://www.interestingauthors.com/blog/finance/are-you-ready-for-the-dow-to-hit-8000/

The financial dominoes are going to be far worse than the disease death toll.
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2020-03-14 07:47:17 UTC
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Post by seasoned_geek
The biggest problem right now for the left coast according to NPR is the
massive homeless population without access to regular bathing/hand
washing. Big fears that when it takes root there it will really
germinate. A few random cases in the general population with jobs who
live indoors not a huge deal. The homeless population, which is large in
year round summer locations, will be a true foothold situation. Many
have underlying health conditions.
Maybe the USA will probably wake up and smell the coffee and realize
that tens of millions of people without health insurance is not a good
idea at any time, and can lead to a massive death toll---including some
insured people---under the present circumstances. Maybe Bernie will win
after all.
Post by seasoned_geek
Here in Illinois they just closed all of the schools and asked the
churches to close. If you saw the story an infected woman went to a mega
church and infected 40 people who went out and infected others.
Like a lightning rod on a church, if this isn't an admission on the part
of the faithful that there is no God, then I don't know what is.
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