Discussion:
[Totally OT] Covid-19, was: Re: Creating an open source version of VMS, was: Re: OpenVMS Hobbyist Notification
(too old to reply)
Simon Clubley
2020-03-13 13:17:04 UTC
Permalink
For those of us that survive 2020.
I was reluctant to raise this, given that it is totally off topic,
but it affects everyone here and I was wondering what the situation
is really like on the ground around the planet compared to what the
media are and are not reporting.

I've marked the thread as off-topic and started a new thread so that
it's easy to kill file or skip over.

Here in Northern England in the UK, there's a lot of low-level concern
but not a massive amount of panic buying yet (apart from the various
hand gels). There is some concern that the UK government is not reacting
strongly enough or quickly enough yet and there's a real feeling that
things could escalate out of control over the coming weeks due to that.

How are things in your part of the planet ?

$ set response/mode=good_natured

Anyone know if there are any open positions at the IceCube lab ? :-)

Thanks,

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
John Reagan
2020-03-13 13:30:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
How are things in your part of the planet ?
Here in NH, there are a handful of positive cases; more across the border in MA. At the stores, no hand gels, rush on toilet paper, etc. I've stayed home more lately but I had a migraine last week and just wanted the quiet. I do have a few extra cans/tins of food in the pantry and extra in the freezer, but I'm not hoarding anything. (does wine count?)

I have found the https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/ subreddit to be a good source of news that seems to be fair as much as anything can be.

Just washing my hands more often (I have BLISS under my fingernails)
Arne Vajhøj
2020-03-13 13:38:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
For those of us that survive 2020.
I was reluctant to raise this, given that it is totally off topic,
but it affects everyone here and I was wondering what the situation
is really like on the ground around the planet compared to what the
media are and are not reporting.
I've marked the thread as off-topic and started a new thread so that
it's easy to kill file or skip over.
Here in Northern England in the UK, there's a lot of low-level concern
but not a massive amount of panic buying yet (apart from the various
hand gels). There is some concern that the UK government is not reacting
strongly enough or quickly enough yet and there's a real feeling that
things could escalate out of control over the coming weeks due to that.
How are things in your part of the planet ?
I follow US, Denmark, Poland and Italy pretty close.

And the pictures seems very similar across:

* Most orgs are ordering IT people and other "paper pushers" to
work from home
* Many schools and universities are closed
* Many places has put restrictions on public gatherings
prohibiting either >1000 or >100 people
* Travel had come to a total standstill: some countries
does not allow entry, companies are cancelling business
travel, airlines are cancelling flights, people do not
want to travel
* politicians like to go on TV and pretend they can control
the situation
* people are stocking up on supplies, but true panic is
rare

Arne
Simon Clubley
2020-03-13 18:26:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
Here in Northern England in the UK, there's a lot of low-level concern
but not a massive amount of panic buying yet (apart from the various
hand gels). There is some concern that the UK government is not reacting
strongly enough or quickly enough yet and there's a real feeling that
things could escalate out of control over the coming weeks due to that.
How are things in your part of the planet ?
I follow US, Denmark, Poland and Italy pretty close.
* Most orgs are ordering IT people and other "paper pushers" to
work from home
* Many schools and universities are closed
* Many places has put restrictions on public gatherings
prohibiting either >1000 or >100 people
The UK government hasn't started to implement proper "social distancing"
measures yet and that's starting to make some people nervous because the
argument is that by the time it becomes _really_ obvious such measures
are required then the effectiveness of such measures may be reduced if
only implemented at that time.
Post by Arne Vajhøj
* Travel had come to a total standstill: some countries
does not allow entry, companies are cancelling business
travel, airlines are cancelling flights, people do not
want to travel
* politicians like to go on TV and pretend they can control
the situation
* people are stocking up on supplies, but true panic is
rare
Outside of the hand gels, I've seen some small bits of panic buying
but I've not yet seen anything like what you see in TV reports from
the US when a hurricane is about to hit.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2020-03-13 23:06:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
Here in Northern England in the UK, there's a lot of low-level concern
but not a massive amount of panic buying yet (apart from the various
hand gels). There is some concern that the UK government is not reacting
strongly enough or quickly enough yet and there's a real feeling that
things could escalate out of control over the coming weeks due to that.
How are things in your part of the planet ?
I follow US, Denmark, Poland and Italy pretty close.
* Most orgs are ordering IT people and other "paper pushers" to
work from home
* Many schools and universities are closed
* Many places has put restrictions on public gatherings
prohibiting either >1000 or >100 people
The UK government hasn't started to implement proper "social distancing"
measures yet and that's starting to make some people nervous because the
argument is that by the time it becomes _really_ obvious such measures
are required then the effectiveness of such measures may be reduced if
only implemented at that time.
Post by Arne Vajhøj
* Travel had come to a total standstill: some countries
does not allow entry, companies are cancelling business
travel, airlines are cancelling flights, people do not
want to travel
* politicians like to go on TV and pretend they can control
the situation
* people are stocking up on supplies, but true panic is
rare
Outside of the hand gels, I've seen some small bits of panic buying
but I've not yet seen anything like what you see in TV reports from
the US when a hurricane is about to hit.
Simon.
Today (Friday) all hand gel and toilet paper was sold out in my
home town (Söderköping, for those knowing east Sweden). Weird,
since thay will stock up on Monday again anyway...

Panic is a larger risk then the Corona virus itself.
Bill Gunshannon
2020-03-14 00:04:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Panic is a larger risk then the Corona virus itself.
That is the big problem and the media is doing their best to fan it.
After all, their real purpose is to make money, not inform anyone.

bill
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2020-03-14 07:44:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Gunshannon
That is the big problem and the media is doing their best to fan it.
After all, their real purpose is to make money, not inform anyone.
Fox News? Yes. Non-profit news outlets? No.
seasoned_geek
2020-03-14 12:00:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Bill Gunshannon
That is the big problem and the media is doing their best to fan it.
After all, their real purpose is to make money, not inform anyone.
Fox News? Yes. Non-profit news outlets? No.
Even non-profits are for profits. The higher the ratings go the higher the donations go and the more the CEO can earn.
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2020-03-14 13:25:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by seasoned_geek
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Bill Gunshannon
That is the big problem and the media is doing their best to fan it.
After all, their real purpose is to make money, not inform anyone.
Fox News? Yes. Non-profit news outlets? No.
Even non-profits are for profits. The higher the ratings go the higher
the donations go and the more the CEO can earn.
At least in some places, non-profit news does not depend on donations
and there is either no CEO or if there is he is on a fixed salary.
Bill Gunshannon
2020-03-14 12:47:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Bill Gunshannon
That is the big problem and the media is doing their best to fan it.
After all, their real purpose is to make money, not inform anyone.
Fox News? Yes. Non-profit news outlets? No.
Fox is the only one I have seen that isn't fanning it. Spend a
lot of time laughing at the others.

There is no such thing as non-profit. Even in the communist world
it's all about who gets to be on top.

bill
Simon Clubley
2020-03-16 01:39:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Simon Clubley
Outside of the hand gels, I've seen some small bits of panic buying
but I've not yet seen anything like what you see in TV reports from
the US when a hurricane is about to hit.
Today (Friday) all hand gel and toilet paper was sold out in my
home town (Söderköping, for those knowing east Sweden). Weird,
since thay will stock up on Monday again anyway...
Panic is a larger risk then the Corona virus itself.
Update a couple of days later:

The panic buying has become _much_ more noticable this weekend
at the same stores I was referring to previously.

Not only is it the stuff in the media, but also some tinned can
products. For example, WTH are people planning to do with stockpiled
tins of tomatoes ???

Quantity limitations have also been introduced on some items
at one of the stores I visit, but the shelves containing those
items are still bare...

BTW, to make this story even _more_ cheerful :-(, some initial medical
reports say that Covid-19 may leave permanent lung damage in some
survivors. :-(

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Andy Burns
2020-03-16 06:49:19 UTC
Permalink
The panic buying has become_much_ more noticable this weekend
at the same stores I was referring to previously.
On saturday shops seemed desolate, on sunday the car parks had traffic jams.
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2020-03-16 09:20:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Simon Clubley
Outside of the hand gels, I've seen some small bits of panic buying
but I've not yet seen anything like what you see in TV reports from
the US when a hurricane is about to hit.
Today (Friday) all hand gel and toilet paper was sold out in my
home town (Söderköping, for those knowing east Sweden). Weird,
since thay will stock up on Monday again anyway...
Panic is a larger risk then the Corona virus itself.
The panic buying has become _much_ more noticable this weekend
at the same stores I was referring to previously.
Not only is it the stuff in the media, but also some tinned can
products. For example, WTH are people planning to do with stockpiled
tins of tomatoes ???
And besides, there are no reported issues at the producers, so
everything will be restocked today (Monday).
Post by Simon Clubley
Quantity limitations have also been introduced on some items
at one of the stores I visit, but the shelves containing those
items are still bare...
BTW, to make this story even _more_ cheerful :-(, some initial medical
reports say that Covid-19 may leave permanent lung damage in some
survivors. :-(
Yes, there are all sorts of "reports" floating around. I also saw that
the reported "permanent" damages can be sorted out by some training.
I have no idea what is the truth here, and few have, I guess.

Jan-Erik.
Post by Simon Clubley
Simon.
Arne Vajhøj
2020-03-16 12:43:41 UTC
Permalink
What you can expect:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/15/uk-coronavirus-crisis-to-last-until-spring-2021-and-could-see-79m-hospitalised

Arne
Michael Moroney
2020-03-16 13:50:58 UTC
Permalink
The US state of Massachusetts is on a near-lockdown. Gatherings of 25 or more
people banned, schools closed, restaurants closed except takeout and delivery,
grocery stores sold out of some of the oddest things.

More on topic is VSI Bolton offices closed for 2 weeks, you gotta work from
home.
Dave Froble
2020-03-13 19:28:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
For those of us that survive 2020.
I was reluctant to raise this, given that it is totally off topic,
but it affects everyone here and I was wondering what the situation
is really like on the ground around the planet compared to what the
media are and are not reporting.
I've marked the thread as off-topic and started a new thread so that
it's easy to kill file or skip over.
Here in Northern England in the UK, there's a lot of low-level concern
but not a massive amount of panic buying yet (apart from the various
hand gels). There is some concern that the UK government is not reacting
strongly enough or quickly enough yet and there's a real feeling that
things could escalate out of control over the coming weeks due to that.
How are things in your part of the planet ?
I follow US, Denmark, Poland and Italy pretty close.
* Most orgs are ordering IT people and other "paper pushers" to
work from home
There are multiple benefits from this, but, it's not always optimal.
Post by Arne Vajhøj
* Many schools and universities are closed
We are at the point where much education does not require gatherings.
However, as with many things, there are those who mis-use things, and
will cry "foul" when their mis-use is gored.

One example is people who consider school a child care system. It
isn't, but some use it as such.
Post by Arne Vajhøj
* Many places has put restrictions on public gatherings
prohibiting either >1000 or >100 people
Under special circumstances this is the correct thing to do. Disease
respects no boundaries, or freedoms, or anything else.
Post by Arne Vajhøj
* Travel had come to a total standstill: some countries
does not allow entry, companies are cancelling business
travel, airlines are cancelling flights, people do not
want to travel
See special circumstances above.
Post by Arne Vajhøj
* politicians like to go on TV and pretend they can control
the situation
Politicians are almost always "theater"
Post by Arne Vajhøj
* people are stocking up on supplies, but true panic is
rare
I live out in the boonies and am not normally around people. Yes, there
is the requirement of shopping. I think. Amazon wants to deliver with
drones.

This current problem is not new. When I was young, STDs were not a
major issue. Then along came AIDS and such. People have for the most
part learned that when one sleeps with another, they also are sleeping
with all other contacts, and all their contacts, and such. One could
argue that you're sleeping with most of the world. Then there was other
things, such as SARS.

Aviation and travel continues to grow. One reads about future aircraft,
pilot, and such needing to grow to meet the ever increasing demand.
More and more people are traveling, and traveling often. With something
as contagious as Covid-19, this quickly becomes a distribution network
that reaches everywhere on the planet.

We need to start thinking of solutions. I seem to recall that travel to
some locations requires one to have certain immunizations up to date.
Perhaps more will be needed in today's and tomorrow's world. Perhaps
certain type of testing should be mandatory for all travelers. Catch
one person infected, and you can stop it there, before it becomes many.

I think containment is a decent solution. At least one we can implement
today. If the human race is going to continue to globetrot, it should
consider the problems and start to plan methods to address contagious
diseases.

You never know when one might come along that is 100% fatal.

One thing pointed out is the number of deaths each year from flu. A
better plan could also reduce this.

Maybe give up handshakes and resort to a small bow, or such.
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2020-03-13 21:01:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Arne Vajhøj
* Most orgs are ordering IT people and other "paper pushers" to
work from home
There are multiple benefits from this, but, it's not always optimal.
If it were, it would be standard. However, under the circumstances,
those who can work from home are lucky. (Depending on your job and
where you live, you might continue to get paid if you stay home even if
you don't work.)
Post by Dave Froble
One example is people who consider school a child care system. It
isn't, but some use it as such.
Really? In most places, children are required to go to school. I don't
think that one can criticize anyone for planning on their children being
in school during certain times.
Post by Dave Froble
This current problem is not new. When I was young, STDs were not a
major issue. Then along came AIDS and such. People have for the most
part learned that when one sleeps with another, they also are sleeping
with all other contacts, and all their contacts, and such. One could
argue that you're sleeping with most of the world.
STDs are really quite different than COVID-19. It is very hard to get
most STDs. Even for most kinds of sex the risk of HIV infection is
small. COVID-19 is much more serious.
Post by Dave Froble
Aviation and travel continues to grow. One reads about future aircraft,
pilot, and such needing to grow to meet the ever increasing demand.
More and more people are traveling, and traveling often. With something
as contagious as Covid-19, this quickly becomes a distribution network
that reaches everywhere on the planet.
True, but remember the plague? Killed, what, one-third of the
population? No planes back then, and no travel faster than a horse;
most travel was on foot.
Post by Dave Froble
We need to start thinking of solutions. I seem to recall that travel to
some locations requires one to have certain immunizations up to date.
That works as long as one is dealing with diseases against which
immunizations exist.
Post by Dave Froble
Perhaps more will be needed in today's and tomorrow's world. Perhaps
certain type of testing should be mandatory for all travelers. Catch
one person infected, and you can stop it there, before it becomes many.
There should be much more of it. One reason it doesn't happen is
because of resistance of people who see it as infringing their freedom.
People, your freedom stops where it affects someone else's freedom, such
as their freedom from disease.
Post by Dave Froble
One thing pointed out is the number of deaths each year from flu. A
better plan could also reduce this.
The "regular" flu has killed more people this year than COVID-19.
(However, that is not a reason to downplay COVID-19; it is much more
contagious, and we don't know how it will develop. Like a sniper on the
loose, knowing that more people will die of the flu, or in traffic
accidents, before he is killed or captured doesn't mean that one
shouldn't report on him and try to protect oneself from him.) There are
probably two main reasons that it is so many. First, many people think
that they have had the flu, but they actually haven't. Some aren't
sure. (The flu is like an orgasm: if you aren't sure whether you've had
it, you haven't.) Thus, they tend to vastly underestimate the
seriousness of the disease, until they get it. Second, many people
don't get vaccinated because they think that vaccines cause autism, or
are a scam so that big pharma can earn easy money, or whatever.
(Frankly, I have little problem with such people getting the disease for
which they refuse a vaccination; the problem is that they infect other
people.)
seasoned_geek
2020-03-14 01:04:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
it, you haven't.) Thus, they tend to vastly underestimate the
seriousness of the disease, until they get it. Second, many people
don't get vaccinated because they think that vaccines cause autism, or
are a scam so that big pharma can earn easy money, or whatever.
(Frankly, I have little problem with such people getting the disease for
which they refuse a vaccination; the problem is that they infect other
people.)
I actually don't get the flu vaccination because I got it twice in my late twenties when everyone was told to and both times I got soooooo sick within 2 days I thought I was going to die. I actually would have went to ER the second time but I was just too sick to make the call.

Any time I've gotten the flu it has never been even a quarter as severe.

No, I'm not allergic to eggs, I eat them all the time. There's just something in that vaccine that tries to kill me. I have a higher percentage chance of survival without the shot.
seasoned_geek
2020-03-14 01:09:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Dave Froble
One example is people who consider school a child care system. It
isn't, but some use it as such.
Really? In most places, children are required to go to school. I don't
think that one can criticize anyone for planning on their children being
in school during certain times.
I believe he is talking about parents who enroll their kids in before/after school programs so they won't have to pay for daycare. Most school days start after parents leave for work and end well before they get home otherwise. It's basically been institutionalized in Chicago.
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2020-03-14 07:50:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by seasoned_geek
I believe he is talking about parents who enroll their kids in
before/after school programs so they won't have to pay for daycare.
Most school days start after parents leave for work and end well before
they get home otherwise. It's basically been institutionalized in
Chicago.
Pay for daycare? Right, free daycare would be socialism, and so people
vote for Trump rather than Bernie. Got it.
seasoned_geek
2020-03-14 12:24:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by seasoned_geek
I believe he is talking about parents who enroll their kids in
before/after school programs so they won't have to pay for daycare.
Most school days start after parents leave for work and end well before
they get home otherwise. It's basically been institutionalized in
Chicago.
Pay for daycare? Right, free daycare would be socialism, and so people
vote for Trump rather than Bernie. Got it.
No, it's a much bigger problem than that. Parents (and I use that term loosely, biological procreation units would be more accurate) are the absolute worst. They think their only job is to have the kids. After they they it's the government's job to raise them because they are far too busy having a life to actually be parents. The entire universe is supposed to raise their child while they go golfing and shopping and hanging out with friends. Neither of them is supposed to actually stay home and raise the child, that's the government's job. The government is supposed to automatically block all content on television and radio they don't want their kids to hear because they certainly can't be sitting around watching television with the kids they had.

These biological procreation units insist on bringing their screaming, squalling petri dishes of the WHO's hundred most deadly diseases on mega cruise ships where all of the lower decks are sealed, having recycled air like a plane. Once they set foot on board the kids are instantly dropped off with the activities people only to be seen at meal time for the rest of the cruise.

And of course we will not bring up those inexcusable biological entities who INSIST on bringing an infant that cannot operate its jaw to pop its ears ON A (^(*&)(*&ING AIR PLANE! Forcing those who understand how to properly use birth control to endure exactly the thing they properly use birth control to avoid, AND those inexcusable biological entities want that bundle of auditory torture to fly for free!

It's not a matter of who they vote for despite what you attempt to say. This is fallout from the 1990s where nobody had to take responsibility for anything and biological procreation units adopted that criminal philosophy with gusto. They shouldn't have to alter their lives to actually become parents, they only had to have the kid, after that they weren't responsible.

Culturally, during America's Greatest Generation, if both husband and wife had to work to support their lifestyle or just get by, they didn't have kids. It was socially irresponsible. Today they not only have their kids, they have all of them before getting married so the tax payer has to pick up the tab.

I'm all for a Medicare for All type situation. What I, and most other taxpayers are against is "gaming the system." We are also against biological procreation units bringing infants on airplanes and children on cruises we saved to pay for rather than racking up credit card debt ahead of bankruptcy.

But, I will let Dave speak for himself. <Grin>

Please, before you talk out your ass, during Bernie's last run (his 42nd?) for president I was both a big donor and backer. If Hillary hadn't rigged the primary he would be president now. If Trump had been actually interested in enforcing the law instead of just keeping his own ass out of prison Hillary and the heads of the Democratic party in charge of the primary rigging would have all been put in prison for financial fraud.

Parents in modern America are simply inexcusable entities and "gaming the system" really offends those who both pay taxes and play by the rules.

It's an ethics thing.

We have them, they don't.
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2020-03-14 13:31:18 UTC
Permalink
On Saturday, March 14, 2020 at 2:50:04 AM UTC-5, Phillip Helbig (undress to=
seasoned_geek <> writes:=20
Post by seasoned_geek
I believe he is talking about parents who enroll their kids in
before/after school programs so they won't have to pay for daycare.=20
Most school days start after parents leave for work and end well before
they get home otherwise. It's basically been institutionalized in
Chicago.
Pay for daycare? Right, free daycare would be socialism, and so people
vote for Trump rather than Bernie. Got it.
No, it's a much bigger problem than that.
Yes, the USA is broken. We know that.

In civilized countries, there is free or heavily subsidized health care.
There are few stay-at-home parents, not because they are out partying,
but because both are working. With a couple of kids, one needs to be at
home for a few years at most---not worth giving up a career for. As a
result of both working, the standard of living is high. People have
children because they want them and spend a lot of time with them
outside of working hours (which might be only 20--35 hours per week).
Thanks to sex education and readily available contraceptives, there are
practically no unwanted children.
MG
2020-03-14 20:58:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Yes, the USA is broken. We know that.
In civilized countries, there is free or heavily subsidized health care.
There are few stay-at-home parents, not because they are out partying,
but because both are working. With a couple of kids, one needs to be at
home for a few years at most---not worth giving up a career for. As a
result of both working, the standard of living is high. People have
children because they want them and spend a lot of time with them
outside of working hours (which might be only 20--35 hours per week).
Thanks to sex education and readily available contraceptives, there are
practically no unwanted children.
How many children do you have? I hear that in the Federal Republic
the birth rates are rather low, like in much of Western Europe for
that matter.

- MG
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2020-03-15 08:38:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by MG
How many children do you have?
4.
Post by MG
I hear that in the Federal Republic
the birth rates are rather low, like in much of Western Europe for
that matter.
Yes. As I said, there are few unwanted children. One can argue that it
should be higher, but that is another issue.
Dave Froble
2020-03-14 23:12:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
On Saturday, March 14, 2020 at 2:50:04 AM UTC-5, Phillip Helbig (undress to=
seasoned_geek <> writes:=20
Post by seasoned_geek
I believe he is talking about parents who enroll their kids in
before/after school programs so they won't have to pay for daycare.=20
Most school days start after parents leave for work and end well before
they get home otherwise. It's basically been institutionalized in
Chicago.
Pay for daycare? Right, free daycare would be socialism, and so people
vote for Trump rather than Bernie. Got it.
No, it's a much bigger problem than that.
Yes, the USA is broken. We know that.
Since it's Phillip, maybe I shouldn't ....

Then again ....

The USA is far from perfect. But I read the news daily, sometimes
several times. Just from the news, there are far worse than the USA.

Have we some bad history? Sure who doesn't. (You want to avoid this
subject Phillip.) Sometimes it goes the other way, Custer got his reward.
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
In civilized countries,
You mean like those who come up with the "final solution"?
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
there is free or heavily subsidized health care.
On this I will agree. Government run clinics. Medical personnel as
employees. Somebody walks in the door and needs medical care, it
happens, no questions asked. Only records are computerized medical
records, and available in whichever clinic is visited. All services,
eyes, dental, everything. Appointments only when reasonable. Otherwise
no waiting.

There are those who say it's too expensive. Show me anyone in the USA
that needs care and doesn't get it. No insurance. No money. Hospitals
will still care for them. So it seems we're already paying for it, and
the huge salaries of medical insurance companies, and all the
non-medical things they do. We're possibly already over paying.
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
There are few stay-at-home parents, not because they are out partying,
but because both are working. With a couple of kids, one needs to be at
home for a few years at most---not worth giving up a career for.
My daughter stayed home and raised her children. Home schooled her son
and her nephew. Had a career, but gave it up to raise the kids. All
the kids are doing great.
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
As a
result of both working, the standard of living is high.
Are you sure you're not paying more taxes, and need two incomes?
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
People have
children because they want them and spend a lot of time with them
outside of working hours (which might be only 20--35 hours per week).
20-35 hours per week? Must be nice.
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Thanks to sex education and readily available contraceptives, there are
practically no unwanted children.
Not even the ones from Syria and Africa?
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
seasoned_geek
2020-03-15 05:20:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
On Saturday, March 14, 2020 at 2:50:04 AM UTC-5, Phillip Helbig (undress to=
There are those who say it's too expensive. Show me anyone in the USA
that needs care and doesn't get it. No insurance. No money. Hospitals
Ummm no. Well, not entirely accurate. In life threatening situations the hospital is required to treat the patient. In most municipalities a hospital is obligated to provide a certain level of charity care. Varies across the country as to fixed dollar amount of a percentage of gross revenues. Both methods have bankrupted several hospitals in the Chicago area in the past decade. They are close and the buildings abandoned. There are people turned away from both ER and hospitals in general when the hospital has hit its charity cap and the issue isn't life threatening. You would be surprised what they can legally turn away once they have hit that cap.
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Thanks to sex education and readily available contraceptives, there are
practically no unwanted children.
Not even the ones from Syria and Africa?
I responding to the original note but unwanted pregnancies are high. Well, they are high enough that abortion clinics are still getting shot up and bible thumping terrorists are trying to pack the court to illegally overturn Roe v Wade. (It can't legally. The Constitution explicitly states "birth". One has to change the Constitution.)

Just try being a school principle that authorizes the dispensing of condoms to high school kids in many parts of this country. Ye be unemployed fast.
Dave Froble
2020-03-14 15:26:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by seasoned_geek
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by seasoned_geek
I believe he is talking about parents who enroll their kids in
before/after school programs so they won't have to pay for daycare.
Most school days start after parents leave for work and end well before
they get home otherwise. It's basically been institutionalized in
Chicago.
Pay for daycare? Right, free daycare would be socialism, and so people
vote for Trump rather than Bernie. Got it.
No, it's a much bigger problem than that. Parents (and I use that term loosely, biological procreation units would be more accurate) are the absolute worst. They think their only job is to have the kids. After they they it's the government's job to raise them because they are far too busy having a life to actually be parents. The entire universe is supposed to raise their child while they go golfing and shopping and hanging out with friends. Neither of them is supposed to actually stay home and raise the child, that's the government's job. The government is supposed to automatically block all content on television and radio they don't want their kids to hear because they certainly can't be sitting around watching television with the kids they had.
These biological procreation units insist on bringing their screaming, squalling petri dishes of the WHO's hundred most deadly diseases on mega cruise ships where all of the lower decks are sealed, having recycled air like a plane. Once they set foot on board the kids are instantly dropped off with the activities people only to be seen at meal time for the rest of the cruise.
And of course we will not bring up those inexcusable biological entities who INSIST on bringing an infant that cannot operate its jaw to pop its ears ON A (^(*&)(*&ING AIR PLANE! Forcing those who understand how to properly use birth control to endure exactly the thing they properly use birth control to avoid, AND those inexcusable biological entities want that bundle of auditory torture to fly for free!
It's not a matter of who they vote for despite what you attempt to say. This is fallout from the 1990s where nobody had to take responsibility for anything and biological procreation units adopted that criminal philosophy with gusto. They shouldn't have to alter their lives to actually become parents, they only had to have the kid, after that they weren't responsible.
Culturally, during America's Greatest Generation, if both husband and wife had to work to support their lifestyle or just get by, they didn't have kids. It was socially irresponsible. Today they not only have their kids, they have all of them before getting married so the tax payer has to pick up the tab.
I'm all for a Medicare for All type situation. What I, and most other taxpayers are against is "gaming the system." We are also against biological procreation units bringing infants on airplanes and children on cruises we saved to pay for rather than racking up credit card debt ahead of bankruptcy.
But, I will let Dave speak for himself. <Grin>
Where? The page is already full.
Post by seasoned_geek
Please, before you talk out your ass, during Bernie's last run (his 42nd?) for president I was both a big donor and backer. If Hillary hadn't rigged the primary he would be president now. If Trump had been actually interested in enforcing the law instead of just keeping his own ass out of prison Hillary and the heads of the Democratic party in charge of the primary rigging would have all been put in prison for financial fraud.
Question: What are the 1700 super delegates the democrats allow at their
convention?

Answer: 1700 votes for a candidate favored by the party leaders who
don't give a damn what the people want.

Ya all just show up and pull the leaver, no thinking required.

Donald Trump had to happen, sometimes things have to get worse before
they get better.

Oh, and Bernie is an idiot.

Go ahead, call yourself a socialist. Half the voters don't even know
what socialism is, but they "know" it's a bad word, and sure won't vote
for a socialist. Best way to not get elected. Guess he never learned
to say "it is my intention to do the right thing for the people". Some
people are their own worst enemy.

Oh, look, more room to write, I can keep going.

"Medicare for all". What a terrible idea.

Why, after a dozen years of education, does a doctor then have to run a
business? Terrible idea. What does it produce?

Medicare fraud.
Call people in for an office visit to allow billing insurance company.
Unnecessary procedures.

What do medical insurance premiums fund?

$400,000 mahogany board room table
$1.6 million to put company name on top of tallest building in city
$50 million bizjet for a local company
Multi-million dollar CEO salary

Ok, out of paper again ....
Post by seasoned_geek
Parents in modern America are simply inexcusable entities and "gaming the system" really offends those who both pay taxes and play by the rules.
It's an ethics thing.
We have them, they don't.
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
seasoned_geek
2020-03-15 04:54:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Froble
Oh, and Bernie is an idiot.
He was a smaller idiot that Trump who actually could have beaten him last time. And we all know now a safer idiot.
Post by Dave Froble
"Medicare for all". What a terrible idea.
Why, after a dozen years of education, does a doctor then have to run a
business? Terrible idea. What does it produce?
Medicare fraud.
Call people in for an office visit to allow billing insurance company.
Unnecessary procedures.
Well, having twice worked for a client that holds the world record in Medicare fraud fines I can honestly tell you the doctor's office fraud isn't tip money on the bar bill.

All drug prices are published in Redbook. The drug companies set the price Medicare pays, Medicare is not allowed to negotiate.

During the paper HICFA days, "pharmacies" used a system on a single PC to generate files. They would then send these files to "Medicare billing services" that would print and sign the forms before mailing to Medicare. The would send that _same_ file to _many_ different "Medicare billing services" but they would stagger the delivery dates so the HICFAs all arrived at different times. This buried Medicare in paper and they had to pay within N-days. The exact same services were being billed 7-10 times in one month.

The other huge fraud going on had "pharmacies", many notably in Florida, who rented a store front with some abandoned shelves in it. They bought some gauze and rubbing alcohol from a grocery store and put the few meager packages on the shelves. The real business was using a black market list of legitimate Medicare IDs. They would generate HICFA files for _all_ of those patients "selling" them the most expensive items Medicare would pay for. One man who had never had an amputation (and lived quite a few states away) was sold 4, count them 4, artificial legs and a bunch of other stuff. Nothing actually shipped. They had no inventory. After a few months the group moved to another storefront a few blocks away and sent out all the same files again.

Somewhere in the "60 Minutes" archives you can find a Mike Wallace interview with one of the few to get caught. He wasn't even the biggest one. He was billing Medicare on average $20 million per week. The rules for payment were coded into the system but the system didn't do any database checks to see if there was an ICD9 (they were only 9 then) for a leg amputation on file.

One of the times I was brought into that client was after they had just gotten caught for the umpteenth time. I had to write and run one of the reports to be handed over. The story going around, fueled by actual court case details is that one of the claims people at Medicare succumbed to good old fashioned bribery. Everything was still paper then and someone had to authorize the paper after reviewing. The reviews weren't medical, just for the payment rules and to verify the prices against Redbook. There was a lot of ghastly price gouging going on. Despite the bigger things that turned up in the report the thing that pissed me off the most was the syringes. Been a lot of years but it still pisses me off. They were paying $10 for a box wholesale. I "believe" the boxes were 100 packs. They were supposed to charge $1.50 each which is still an outrageous markup. They were charging $15 each. Insulin taking diabetics use a lot of those. They honestly believed it would never turn up.

That former client got bought by a larger pharmacy chain and guess what? This past month or so got nailed for over billing Medicare again.

The move to electronic billing records was supposed to get rid of Medicare fraud. It didn't. It did shut down a lot of the old scams. Van loads of HICFA forms are no longer showing up. But there are still a lot of loop holes if there wasn't I wouldn't have heard about yet another over billing fraud within the past few months.

When Obamacare got passed the bribe taking politicians coded into the law that Medicare was not allowed to negotiate the prices of drugs and services. This whole Redbook thing became even more official. It is illegal for any drug company to sell their drugs to any entity at a cheaper price than they sell to Medicare. This routinely happens and leads to many of the fraud cases.

Congress could fix this today without touching the Obamacare law or violating the letter of it.

Both the VA and DOD _are_ allowed to negotiate prices for drugs and services. Not only are they allowed, they actively do negotiate. I haven't been personally involved in it, but I believe some of the fraud cases come about because the VA negotiates a better price than Redbook has for Medicare.

Simply tagging as a rider onto some bill that is going to pass a requirement for Medicare to purchase all of its drugs via the VA would eliminate huge quantities of fraud. If they had to purchase drugs, equipment, and services through the VA it would basically cut out the insurance fraud. Well, the biggest part of it. They still need a lot of huristic (sp?) checks on ICD (what are they now, 11?) codes so they aren't paying for artificial limbs when the patient never had an amputation but they would have more free time to look at such things and they could validate against VA shipping records.
Arne Vajhøj
2020-03-16 13:16:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Froble
Post by seasoned_geek
Please, before you talk out your ass, during Bernie's last run (his
42nd?) for president I was both a big donor and backer. If Hillary
hadn't rigged the primary he would be president now. If Trump had been
actually interested in enforcing the law instead of just keeping his
own ass out of prison Hillary and the heads of the Democratic party in
charge of the primary rigging would have all been put in prison for
financial fraud.
Question: What are the 1700 super delegates the democrats allow at their
convention?
Answer: 1700 votes for a candidate favored by the party leaders who
don't give a damn what the people want.
Ya all just show up and pull the leaver, no thinking required.
Before the conspiracy theories go to far maybe we should
recap the actual result.

Available:

pledged delegates 4041
super delegates 712
total delegate 4763
delegates >50% 2382

Hillary:

16.9 million votes (won 34 states) => 2271 pledged delegates
571 super delegates
total 2842 delegates

Bernie:

13.2 million votes (won 23 states) => 1820 pledged delegates
45 super delegates
total 1865 delegates

Arne
Dave Froble
2020-03-16 13:30:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Dave Froble
Post by seasoned_geek
Please, before you talk out your ass, during Bernie's last run (his
42nd?) for president I was both a big donor and backer. If Hillary
hadn't rigged the primary he would be president now. If Trump had
been actually interested in enforcing the law instead of just keeping
his own ass out of prison Hillary and the heads of the Democratic
party in charge of the primary rigging would have all been put in
prison for financial fraud.
Question: What are the 1700 super delegates the democrats allow at
their convention?
Answer: 1700 votes for a candidate favored by the party leaders who
don't give a damn what the people want.
Ya all just show up and pull the leaver, no thinking required.
Before the conspiracy theories go to far maybe we should
recap the actual result.
pledged delegates 4041
super delegates 712
total delegate 4763
delegates >50% 2382
16.9 million votes (won 34 states) => 2271 pledged delegates
571 super delegates
total 2842 delegates
13.2 million votes (won 23 states) => 1820 pledged delegates
45 super delegates
total 1865 delegates
Arne
Not sure where you are getting your numbers. My (sometimes feeble)
memory was a total of 1700 super delegates. Regardless of the number,
my claim about the super delegates stands. Not picked by voters.
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Arne Vajhøj
2020-03-16 14:24:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Dave Froble
Post by seasoned_geek
Please, before you talk out your ass, during Bernie's last run (his
42nd?) for president I was both a big donor and backer. If Hillary
hadn't rigged the primary he would be president now. If Trump had
been actually interested in enforcing the law instead of just keeping
his own ass out of prison Hillary and the heads of the Democratic
party in charge of the primary rigging would have all been put in
prison for financial fraud.
Question: What are the 1700 super delegates the democrats allow at
their convention?
Answer: 1700 votes for a candidate favored by the party leaders who
don't give a damn what the people want.
Ya all just show up and pull the leaver, no thinking required.
Before the conspiracy theories go to far maybe we should
recap the actual result.
pledged delegates  4041
super delegates     712
total delegate     4763
delegates >50%     2382
16.9 million votes (won 34 states) => 2271 pledged delegates
571 super delegates
total 2842 delegates
13.2 million votes (won 23 states) => 1820 pledged delegates
45 super delegates
total 1865 delegates
Not sure where you are getting your numbers.  My (sometimes feeble)
memory was a total of 1700 super delegates.  Regardless of the number,
my claim about the super delegates stands.  Not picked by voters.
Wikipedia got a rather detailed article about 2016 democratic primaries.

:-)

They changed the rules for 2020 a bit.

It is 3979 unpledged delegates and 771 super delegates. But super
delegates does not get to vote in the first round. Meaning that
50% of pledged delegates ensure win, but <50% but still most
pledged delegates does not ensure win.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries

Arne

Brian_R
2020-03-13 13:38:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
I was reluctant to raise this, given that it is totally off topic,
but it affects everyone here and I was wondering what the situation
is really like on the ground around the planet compared to what the
media are and are not reporting.
My viewpoint from the North East of England is that panic buying is pain
in the arse (looking at you elderly lady with 36 rolls of toilet roll and a
trolley full of tins etc.), blitz spirit my arse. Those folks who can just
about afford their weekly groceries are going to end up out of pocket, no
doubt that somewhere, people will be making a killing with this.

Plenty of gallows humour in the office, especially those with diabetes or
other scary health problems.

I suspect that trust is the government is zero, and rapidly declining.

Barring that, as happy as can be....


cheers


Brian
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2020-03-13 14:35:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
For those of us that survive 2020.
I was reluctant to raise this, given that it is totally off topic,
but it affects everyone here and I was wondering what the situation
is really like on the ground around the planet compared to what the
media are and are not reporting.
There are those who say that the situation is much, much worse than it
is now, or will soon become so, basically because many people have few
symptoms and thus think that they are not infected and spread it to
others. There are others who say that it's a conspiracy to distract
attention from other things, affect the economy so that Trump loses, and
so on. Often, when an idea is criticized about equally from both sides,
it is pretty much correct.

Yes, total deaths now are not as high as from the normal flu.
(Influenza is like an orgasm---if you aren't sure whether you've had it,
you haven't.) First, that could change soon. Second, imagine a
shooting spree. During the at most few hours until the shooter is
captured or shot, many more people will die in traffic accidents and so
on, but that's neither a reason not to report on it nor a reason not to
protect oneself from it.
Post by Simon Clubley
Here in Northern England in the UK, there's a lot of low-level concern
but not a massive amount of panic buying yet (apart from the various
hand gels). There is some concern that the UK government is not reacting
strongly enough or quickly enough yet and there's a real feeling that
things could escalate out of control over the coming weeks due to that.
I'm waiting for Boris Johnson to blame it on the EU.

The main problem in many places, especially if it spreads quickly, is
that there aren't enough hospital beds.
Post by Simon Clubley
How are things in your part of the planet ?
People are keeping calm and carrying on, taking the necessary
precautions.
Post by Simon Clubley
Anyone know if there are any open positions at the IceCube lab ? :-)
Probably not a good idea, as viruses like cold. (Bacteria, in contrast,
like warmth, which is why one has a refrigerator to keep food fresh.) As
such, public saunas are one of the few places where there might be many
people but the risk of infection is relatively low. Also, public
swimming pools are OK (even more so if the water is warm), as there is
chlorine in the water; one is literally swimming in disinfectant. Of
course, one should keep one's distance here, but it is much less
dangerous than going to a concert, taking public transportation, going
to the cinema, watching a sports match, and so on.
Simon Clubley
2020-03-13 18:38:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
The main problem in many places, especially if it spreads quickly, is
that there aren't enough hospital beds.
Indeed. Some people are looking at the relatively low death rate now,
but are not considering the number of people who need advanced critical
care in order to survive it.

Those death rates are likely to go up if the health services get
overwhelmed because there is unlikely to be enough critical care
equipment to meet everyone's needs. I suspect we would be looking
at a triage situation in that case where the goal is to maximise
the number of survivors instead of being able to treat everyone who
would otherwise be able to get advanced treatment and survive.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
t***@frontieranalytical.com
2020-03-13 15:49:48 UTC
Permalink
Here in the Republik of Kalifornia, dead center on the hot spot list for the dreaded pandemic, it's business as usual.
Might as well predict a 9.0 earthquake while we're at it.
Toilet paper has pretty much vanished off the shelves at the Costo, Target and WallMart, so has chlorine bleach and hand sanitizer.
Schools are closing, no professional sports, concerts are cancelled, yet lines are just as long at the local restaurants.
It'll be interesting to see how it all pans out, just hope we don't lose too much of the best segment of the population.

'Crabs
seasoned_geek
2020-03-14 00:56:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@frontieranalytical.com
Here in the Republik of Kalifornia, dead center on the hot spot list for the dreaded pandemic, it's business as usual.
Might as well predict a 9.0 earthquake while we're at it.
Toilet paper has pretty much vanished off the shelves at the Costo, Target and WallMart, so has chlorine bleach and hand sanitizer.
Schools are closing, no professional sports, concerts are cancelled, yet lines are just as long at the local restaurants.
It'll be interesting to see how it all pans out, just hope we don't lose too much of the best segment of the population.
'Crabs
The biggest problem right now for the left coast according to NPR is the massive homeless population without access to regular bathing/hand washing. Big fears that when it takes root there it will really germinate. A few random cases in the general population with jobs who live indoors not a huge deal. The homeless population, which is large in year round summer locations, will be a true foothold situation. Many have underlying health conditions.

Here in Illinois they just closed all of the schools and asked the churches to close. If you saw the story an infected woman went to a mega church and infected 40 people who went out and infected others.

I'm sitting at home writing two more books now that AGILE book is off to final editor. Kind of glad my Chicago contract fell through as it would suck to be paying for corporate housing and unable to go into work.

Chicago is on its way to becoming the new epicenter for the disease. OHare airport is _such_ a blessing.

I misspoke earlier. The schools are shut down as to Tuesday morning. They are risking contamination on Monday so kids can get enough take home assignments to keep them busy through end of month. School lunch programs can continue to provide food on a delivery or parent pick up basis. I understand the need given the lunch program provides the basic nutrition for many of the kids from poorer families. We throw more food away in America every day than it would take to feed the world, yet we still have a hunger problem.

I watched our governor giving his address yesterday. In just an hour he did more than the president in a month. We went from "fake news" to national emergency in a single week's news cycle.

I did write a couple of blog posts if you feel like being entertained.

http://www.interestingauthors.com/blog/experience/coronavirus/

http://www.interestingauthors.com/blog/finance/are-you-ready-for-the-dow-to-hit-8000/

The financial dominoes are going to be far worse than the disease death toll.
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2020-03-14 07:47:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by seasoned_geek
The biggest problem right now for the left coast according to NPR is the
massive homeless population without access to regular bathing/hand
washing. Big fears that when it takes root there it will really
germinate. A few random cases in the general population with jobs who
live indoors not a huge deal. The homeless population, which is large in
year round summer locations, will be a true foothold situation. Many
have underlying health conditions.
Maybe the USA will probably wake up and smell the coffee and realize
that tens of millions of people without health insurance is not a good
idea at any time, and can lead to a massive death toll---including some
insured people---under the present circumstances. Maybe Bernie will win
after all.
Post by seasoned_geek
Here in Illinois they just closed all of the schools and asked the
churches to close. If you saw the story an infected woman went to a mega
church and infected 40 people who went out and infected others.
Like a lightning rod on a church, if this isn't an admission on the part
of the faithful that there is no God, then I don't know what is.
IanD
2020-03-14 17:22:08 UTC
Permalink
On Saturday, March 14, 2020 at 6:47:20 PM UTC+11, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:

<snip>
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Maybe the USA will probably wake up and smell the coffee and realize
that tens of millions of people without health insurance is not a good
idea at any time, and can lead to a massive death toll---including some
insured people---under the present circumstances. Maybe Bernie will win
after all.
The American system is broken because there is no transparency to the point where buyers cannot easily shop and compare services. I've seen studies that show it's impossible to obtain a full quote for a major procedure up-front

The notion of a government looking after you depends on whether you think the State is a de-facto 'Mummy and Daddy' who needs to look after you after you've left home and meant to be all grown up or not. For some this parental notion is hard to shake off

There is no benevolence in government, only fools believe in such a notion

It does however make sense to provide for basic healthcare in a general population, especially if you want to maintain a reasonable level of population health

How that is achieved and fairly done across a broad range of age and needs is the difficult part. The young don't need much and are better off being allowed to put their resources into building their future wealth, the older, need more healthcare

Australia's healthcare system does a fairly reasonable job at keeping a balance between public and private healthcare

The public system tends to look after essentials and is accessible to all and you are 'encouraged' to have private cover if you want more personalised healthcare such as your own specialists and private hospital admission.

The 'encouragement' to have private cover also comes in the form of being hit with up to an additional tax of up to 1.5% of your income if you do not have private healthcare and earn above a certain amount.
It's meant to drive those who can afford it towards private cover to reduce the demand on the public system

The public system has longer waiting times and will not cover cosmetic surgery and other non-essential items

In Australia the healthcare funds have to publish their monthly cost and all the conditions of what is covered with that service and any limits involved. It makes it very easy to compare funds and there are plenty of sites cross-comparing. Even the government has a private healthcare comparison site

<snip>
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Like a lightning rod on a church, if this isn't an admission on the part
of the faithful that there is no God, then I don't know what is.
What a fallacious argument or was it an attempt at humor?

It falls flat for a number of reasons

1. The premise is wrong, a Church is the people, not a building
2. I highly doubt most church buildings have a lightning rod, they wouldn't meet the minimum height
3. For buildings that are large enough for a lightning rod, those entering wouldn't be giving it any thought about any lightning protection
4. By your reasoning, I take it you wear a seat belt because you have no faith in the air-bag ? Perhaps only those who have no faith in air-bags need to have seat-belts fitted in their vehicles then?
seasoned_geek
2020-03-15 05:03:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by IanD
2. I highly doubt most church buildings have a lightning rod, they wouldn't meet the minimum height
Ummm, not to be a penis with ears, but the church I endured growing up had a steeple and lightning rods. All of the churches around here do. I live rural and that church was on a hill.

Somewhere on the History Channel one of their engineering or modern marvels shows actually had a segment on this. Being an alter boy in rural America was at one time one of the most dangerous jobs in America. When a bad storm was coming it was the job of the alter boy to ring the church bell so the surrounding farms would know. (Many churches were built on hills and you could see a long way from the bell tower of the steeple. Anyway, the rain and lightning would get there and the alter boy had to keep ringing the bell for some length of time. Rain would run down the rope and lightning would strike the bell, finding its way to ground via the alter boy.

Yes, you are correct, the church is the people, but the church building needs a lightning rod.

Just my 0.0002 cents
MG
2020-03-14 20:54:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
How are things in your part of the planet ?
Not a boomer, so I may be fine either way.

Until very recently the government of the Netherlands didn't
appear to particularly care much. They long belittled the
seriousness and instilled the idea that "it's just a flu",
like a certain president up to barely a week ago. The prime
minister even ridiculed taking precautions with regard to
personal hygiene (like avoiding handshakes), in an effort to
mitigate the further spread of the virus.

- MG
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