Discussion:
Announcing: gSoap for OpenVMS blog
(too old to reply)
v***@yahoo.com
2007-10-31 18:01:33 UTC
Permalink
As a user of GSoap for VMS, I am "passing it along" for the benefit of
the extended Uncle VeMuS family:

Later,

V

*****

Subject: gSOAP on OpenVMS: there is a blog for the software in which
you may enter bugs, comments, questions and so forth.

Folks, we though some of you might find it helpful to be able to share
experiences, enter bugs, solutions, questions and perhaps even tell a
little about what you are doing. So we created a blog which you can
find at:

http://johndapps.blogspot.com/

(Forgive the fact that the blog is under my name. Since this is not
yet software supported by HP, we have to use non-HP sites for our
work, and I already had this blog site.)

We hope you all find this useful in one way or another and find the
time to let us, and each other, know how things are progressing!
Michael Anderson
2007-11-03 18:49:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@yahoo.com
As a user of GSoap for VMS, I am "passing it along" for the benefit of
Later,
V
*****
Subject: gSOAP on OpenVMS: there is a blog for the software in which
you may enter bugs, comments, questions and so forth.
Folks, we though some of you might find it helpful to be able to share
experiences, enter bugs, solutions, questions and perhaps even tell a
little about what you are doing. So we created a blog which you can
http://johndapps.blogspot.com/
(Forgive the fact that the blog is under my name. Since this is not
yet software supported by HP, we have to use non-HP sites for our
work, and I already had this blog site.)
We hope you all find this useful in one way or another and find the
time to let us, and each other, know how things are progressing!
I hope that HP will officially support gSOAP on OpenVMS as I am using
it and I suspect more than a few software developers are using it as
well. Each us of porting it and supporting it independently as our
employers will not support the additional time required to properly
feed our changes back into the project.

Web services (SOAP) is a big deal right now for our customers and we
must support it and gSOAP is the best solution for a commercial
software vendor for more than a few reasons. gSOAP is extremely fast
virtually no overhead on the system gSOAP is compiled which makes
interfacing with other languages such as MACRO and COBOL easy gSOAP
requires no runtimes other than the normal C/C++ shared libraries
which makes distribution easier as the customer does not need to
install and tune a java runtime.
Richard Maher
2007-11-05 14:14:17 UTC
Permalink
Hi Michael,
Post by Michael Anderson
I hope that HP will officially support gSOAP on OpenVMS as I am using
it and I suspect more than a few software developers are using it as
well.
Surely one could be forgiven for thinking that "HP" _was_ officially
supporting gSOAP *now*? But then I'm not privy to the timesheets of those
involved, nor do I have an understanding of the other valuable "daytime/core
hours" work being undertaken on behalf of the VMS license payer - So who
really knows? I haven't seen such generous patronage since WASD! (Or those
"altruistic" Firepower guys that seem to be sponsoring everything)

Michael, I presume that you're willing to accept that some might just see
Apache and Tomcat as far more worthy of HP support than gSOAP? What about
Java 6? Or is 1.5 destined to be "good enough" for VMS, as it is for OS X?
What about STUNNEL? Why isn't HP supporting that very worthy piece of
integration software?

All about IMM priorities and whose buddy needs a gig I guess?
Post by Michael Anderson
Each us of porting it and supporting it independently as our
employers will not support the additional time required to properly
feed our changes back into the project.
Hold the phone! Here's a possibility - We currently have several HP/VMS
employees with (demonstrably) fuck all to do and all day to do it in, on one
hand, and all this pent up customer demand on the other. How 'bout you guys
go public with a little "gSOAP support" company? HP saves on redundant
salaries and VMS customers get what they're gagging for - Sounds like a
win-win to me! (Nah, on second thoughts just keep charging the VMS
license-payer for what ever it is you feel like doing today; you can always
bail later if it looks like taking off. And let's not discount the Mono .NET
possibilities you cynical bastards!)
Post by Michael Anderson
Web services (SOAP) is a big deal right now for our customers
Really? Which VMS customers and why? I don't argue tha SOAP is popular, I
just question what all these customers have been doing up until now. Ajax
interesting to them? Flash? .NET? WebSphere? WebLogic? Oracle iAS? Windows
IIS?

Sockets just aren't worth anything unless you can pile a whole lot of
"value-added" crud on top of 'em I guess?
Post by Michael Anderson
we
must support it and gSOAP is the best solution for a commercial
software vendor for more than a few reasons.
But Michael, isn't that what WSIT is supposed to be for??? V2.0 is
apparently production-quality/commercial-grade/HP supported - what's the
issue? "If it's not Java it just ain't!" - ask Arne :-)

Please see http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=07/11/01/1550341

Or do you agree with me that WSIT stands for Waste of Substantial Investment
in Technology and that there is absolutely *no* reason why VMS needs a
JVM/JRE/J2EE/Garbage Collector/RMI/Serialization/NetBean/Jblah? "Want one?
Fine! - *Need* one? Bollocks!".

But I think that perhaps your problem is that you find the indignity of
having to call your C/C++ modules via a Java wrapper as completely
unacceptable, yet you think that the COBOL/BASIC/Pascal/Fortran pigs should
be more than happy to put up with your bullshit header files, SOAP
Envelopes, WSDL and marshalling/unmarshalling, serialization and *ABSOLUTE
FUCKING ENCYCLOPEDIAS* of poorly performing XML?

(BTW: You'll need to have included the ns:Oz-vernacular and the
Frankness-Schema in your classpath in order to translate this)
Post by Michael Anderson
gSOAP is extremely fast
Compared to what? WSIT? - Please. . .
Post by Michael Anderson
virtually no overhead on the system
Miraculous! So no SOAP wrappers? No XML? No marshalling/unmarshalling? No
connectionless context-devoid bullshit transport protocol?

This I gotta see; please explain.
Post by Michael Anderson
gSOAP is compiled
Some maintain that JIT performs rather well. Either way your parsing crap!

*********************************************************
Post by Michael Anderson
which makes
interfacing with other languages such as MACRO and COBOL easy gSOAP
requires no runtimes other than the normal C/C++ shared libraries
which makes distribution easier as the customer does not need to
install and tune a java runtime.
************************************************************

No *this* is where I really get confused as to where exactly you'd have HP
position gSOAP.

Stay with me as I discuss what we've had so far: -

[This from the chief VMS gSOAP engineer]
"Note: This is in no way competition with HP's fine product WSIT. In fact,
it complements it as it allows programs written in any language to access
Web Services."

[And this from Ian Miller (who has no axe to grind)]
"The initial motivation for porting gSOAP to OpenVMS was a question from a
customer asking how they could call a remote Web service from their OpenVMS
COBOL, ACMS application. A number of organisations have crafted novel
solutions to address this type of problem; however, gSOAP potentially
provides a more complete, proven, and flexible solution. "

So some would have us believe (or willingly deceive us into believing for
their own cynical ends) that gSOAP is for VMS 3GLs to call remote SOAP
routines, but you have admirably chosen to be more frank with the public
Michael, and I thank you for it! gSOAP is in direct competition to WSIT and
flies in the face of everything VMS enginering has been doing over the last
X years with Apache Tomcat WSIT and where they have positioned VMS in the
server market.

Don't get me wrong; I agree with you! It's just that I find your honesty
refreshing. One thing's for sure, you clearly do not work for HP/VMS!

Regards Richard Maher
Post by Michael Anderson
Post by v***@yahoo.com
As a user of GSoap for VMS, I am "passing it along" for the benefit of
Later,
V
*****
Subject: gSOAP on OpenVMS: there is a blog for the software in which
you may enter bugs, comments, questions and so forth.
Folks, we though some of you might find it helpful to be able to share
experiences, enter bugs, solutions, questions and perhaps even tell a
little about what you are doing. So we created a blog which you can
http://johndapps.blogspot.com/
(Forgive the fact that the blog is under my name. Since this is not
yet software supported by HP, we have to use non-HP sites for our
work, and I already had this blog site.)
We hope you all find this useful in one way or another and find the
time to let us, and each other, know how things are progressing!
I hope that HP will officially support gSOAP on OpenVMS as I am using
it and I suspect more than a few software developers are using it as
well. Each us of porting it and supporting it independently as our
employers will not support the additional time required to properly
feed our changes back into the project.
Web services (SOAP) is a big deal right now for our customers and we
must support it and gSOAP is the best solution for a commercial
software vendor for more than a few reasons. gSOAP is extremely fast
virtually no overhead on the system gSOAP is compiled which makes
interfacing with other languages such as MACRO and COBOL easy gSOAP
requires no runtimes other than the normal C/C++ shared libraries
which makes distribution easier as the customer does not need to
install and tune a java runtime.
IanMiller
2007-11-05 13:38:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Maher
[And this from Ian Miller (who has no axe to grind)]
"The initial motivation for porting gSOAP to OpenVMS was a question from a
customer asking how they could call a remote Web service from their OpenVMS
COBOL, ACMS application. A number of organisations have crafted novel
solutions to address this type of problem; however, gSOAP potentially
provides a more complete, proven, and flexible solution. "
Not my words - Those words where copied from a document downloaded
from the gSOAP blog and supplied via one of the creators of that
blog.
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2007-11-05 13:56:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Maher
Post by Michael Anderson
Web services (SOAP) is a big deal right now for our customers
Really? Which VMS customers and why?
Any customer who wants their VMS systems to act as clients
to WEB-services servers, I guess...
Post by Richard Maher
So some would have us believe (...) that gSOAP is for
VMS 3GLs to call remote SOAP routines,...
It is. What is the problem with that ?
(And from what I understand, WSIT is of limited use there.)

And not having to use ODS5 and install Java kit is/could
be a big plus, depending on your actual environment.

Jan-Erik.
Richard Maher
2007-11-07 13:58:23 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jan-Erik,

[Before I go further; can we not please just discuss photos of the BF2000
spinning on a web-page while the Rdb-sourced monthly/regional sales-figures
manipulate Flash pie/bar charts on another section of the browser? Images
stored in the Rdb database along with the textual data? Backed-up in synch?]

Ok, oh well; I guess Planet-Maher is destined to be a lonely place :-(
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Any customer who wants their VMS systems to act as clients
to WEB-services servers, I guess...
And who are they and what are they doing *exactly*? I am not a troglodyte
here, I do understand the concept and the reality; what I'm trying to do is
separate the Gartner report (CV-Builder) fiction from what is really
happening at the VMS coal face. Are you really trying to pull down Google
Maps to your VAX Cobol programs, or is there a certain manufacturer that
mandates SOAP interoperability?

It's just that I've worked for years with DECnet then X.25 then FTP then
TCP/IP Socket middleware, in London financial exchanges all the way to
Dickie local governments, and I don't really understand this amazing "new"
problem that your solving.

Here's the crazy thing; I'm actually *asking* you for a *specific*
requirements-specification! There's certainly no shortage of SOLUTIONIZING
barrow-boys who will relieve you of your cash, telling you what you *should*
be doing for their own ends, but I on the other hand wish to understand the
problem/requirements in more detail.

I've personally seen suppliers like Toyota regularly send 1MB+ SOAP/XML
messages down the line for reasons only known to themselves (and Gartner I
suppose?) and yet I've implemented a very effective (although still crap)
inter-car-dealer Spare Parts sales-system with plain old TCP/IP Sockets. But
what do the Jan-Erik's and Michaels of this world really want?

My *guess* is that you need this XML/RPC in SOAP-drag thing where you can
say:-

?XML Bollocks Transitional 0.5 Look like SOAP?
<RequestRecord>
<PartNumber>123</PartNumber>
</RequestRecord>

and recieve a:-

<DickieAnswer>
<QtyOH>33</QtyOH>
followed by lots of CRLF bollocks. . .

Am I pretty close to the mark here???

So how much of the gSOAP source-code footprint, do you really think is
involved in solving that little requirement eh? 1 maybe 2 percent?

What the fuck do you think the rest of the Trojen-Horse is for???

Which part of that requirement involved a new HTTP Web Server eh? (On top of
WASD, Apache, OSU, T3 Applet Uploader)

Where is the gSOAP Tomcat? Where is the thread-pool, the server-pool, the
min-this the max-that? The server Containers? Are you still there Jan-Erik?
Hello, Hello, anyone home???
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Richard Maher
So some would have us believe (...) that gSOAP is for
VMS 3GLs to call remote SOAP routines,...
It is. What is the problem with that ?
(And from what I understand, WSIT is of limited use there.)
My recollection of the beatitudes is a little shakey but wasn't there a
"Blessed are the gullible for they will be buggered by VMS's IMM"?

As Inigo Montoya would say "Let me explain. .there is no time; let me
summarize":-

You have asked for the Artic Blue SportsWagon and this really "nice" guy has
told you that you actually want the WagonQueen Family Truxter. And you are
now jumping up and down saying "I really love the metallic-pea!".

Maybe here's a better analogy: - You're sick of illegal Indonesian fisherman
pilfering our waters off the Northwest coast and you've asked the federal
govt for help. To which they have responded with a purchase order for a
Nimitz-Class air-craft carrier. Now your eyes are bulging and you're nursing
a semi 'cos you get to strafe those abolone-rustlers every morning, but
strangely enough, the hidden agenda of the poisonous bastards involved in
the solution-spec doesn't seen to bother you? That is until they launch a
pre-emtive strike on Jakarta.

Anyway Jan-Erik, if you really want a SOAP client RTL then I can see no
reason why HP or Freeware doesn't provide one. I don't know C/OpenSSL or I'd
give you one myself. (Give Mark Daniel a decent fee and I'm sure you'll have
one in a month)

But maybe I'm wrong, maybe you really want: - WS-Addressing,
WS-ReliableMessaging, WS-Coordination, WS-AtomicTransaction, WS-Security,
WS-Security Policy, WS-Trust, WS-SecureConversation, WS-Policy,
WS-MetadataExchange

It's up to you. . .

Cheers Richard Maher

PS. Go on! ask those fuckers what their WS-AT solution is for VMS! Ask them
about latent ACMS support for TIP! Ask them about Tier3 support for TIP!
What would you image the difference between WS-Coordinationa and WS-AT to
be?

Ah who gives a shit? You clearly don't :-(
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Richard Maher
Post by Michael Anderson
Web services (SOAP) is a big deal right now for our customers
Really? Which VMS customers and why?
Any customer who wants their VMS systems to act as clients
to WEB-services servers, I guess...
Post by Richard Maher
So some would have us believe (...) that gSOAP is for
VMS 3GLs to call remote SOAP routines,...
It is. What is the problem with that ?
(And from what I understand, WSIT is of limited use there.)
And not having to use ODS5 and install Java kit is/could
be a big plus, depending on your actual environment.
Jan-Erik.
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2007-11-07 13:26:05 UTC
Permalink
Richard Maher wrote:

[A lot of crap included after my post...]

I realy do not see why I should bother at all, but...

What we have :

- A public (auction) site that have published an "API"
to be able to run own applications against their system.

- The API is XML/SOAP based.

Now tell me, what would *you*, Mr Maher, use to access these
services from your own VMS system ? Whould you write XML/SOAP
code all from scratch ?

With my current knowledge, I thought the gSOAP kit
would fit in nicely.

*I* do not have *any* influence on the selected
technology at the actual site, of course.

Finely, your Tier3 platform *could* be a possible alternative
at another site where both VMS server and PC clients
are in-house, but the tone in your post aren't helping your
business, that's for sure. Or, on a second thought, I find
your post offending enought to not concider Tier3 at all...

Best Regards,
Jan-Erik.
Post by Richard Maher
Hi Jan-Erik,
[Before I go further; can we not please just discuss photos of the BF2000
spinning on a web-page while the Rdb-sourced monthly/regional sales-figures
manipulate Flash pie/bar charts on another section of the browser? Images
stored in the Rdb database along with the textual data? Backed-up in synch?]
Ok, oh well; I guess Planet-Maher is destined to be a lonely place :-(
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Any customer who wants their VMS systems to act as clients
to WEB-services servers, I guess...
And who are they and what are they doing *exactly*? I am not a troglodyte
here, I do understand the concept and the reality; what I'm trying to do is
separate the Gartner report (CV-Builder) fiction from what is really
happening at the VMS coal face. Are you really trying to pull down Google
Maps to your VAX Cobol programs, or is there a certain manufacturer that
mandates SOAP interoperability?
It's just that I've worked for years with DECnet then X.25 then FTP then
TCP/IP Socket middleware, in London financial exchanges all the way to
Dickie local governments, and I don't really understand this amazing "new"
problem that your solving.
Here's the crazy thing; I'm actually *asking* you for a *specific*
requirements-specification! There's certainly no shortage of SOLUTIONIZING
barrow-boys who will relieve you of your cash, telling you what you *should*
be doing for their own ends, but I on the other hand wish to understand the
problem/requirements in more detail.
I've personally seen suppliers like Toyota regularly send 1MB+ SOAP/XML
messages down the line for reasons only known to themselves (and Gartner I
suppose?) and yet I've implemented a very effective (although still crap)
inter-car-dealer Spare Parts sales-system with plain old TCP/IP Sockets. But
what do the Jan-Erik's and Michaels of this world really want?
My *guess* is that you need this XML/RPC in SOAP-drag thing where you can
say:-
?XML Bollocks Transitional 0.5 Look like SOAP?
<RequestRecord>
<PartNumber>123</PartNumber>
</RequestRecord>
and recieve a:-
<DickieAnswer>
<QtyOH>33</QtyOH>
followed by lots of CRLF bollocks. . .
Am I pretty close to the mark here???
So how much of the gSOAP source-code footprint, do you really think is
involved in solving that little requirement eh? 1 maybe 2 percent?
What the fuck do you think the rest of the Trojen-Horse is for???
Which part of that requirement involved a new HTTP Web Server eh? (On top of
WASD, Apache, OSU, T3 Applet Uploader)
Where is the gSOAP Tomcat? Where is the thread-pool, the server-pool, the
min-this the max-that? The server Containers? Are you still there Jan-Erik?
Hello, Hello, anyone home???
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Richard Maher
So some would have us believe (...) that gSOAP is for
VMS 3GLs to call remote SOAP routines,...
It is. What is the problem with that ?
(And from what I understand, WSIT is of limited use there.)
My recollection of the beatitudes is a little shakey but wasn't there a
"Blessed are the gullible for they will be buggered by VMS's IMM"?
As Inigo Montoya would say "Let me explain. .there is no time; let me
summarize":-
You have asked for the Artic Blue SportsWagon and this really "nice" guy has
told you that you actually want the WagonQueen Family Truxter. And you are
now jumping up and down saying "I really love the metallic-pea!".
Maybe here's a better analogy: - You're sick of illegal Indonesian fisherman
pilfering our waters off the Northwest coast and you've asked the federal
govt for help. To which they have responded with a purchase order for a
Nimitz-Class air-craft carrier. Now your eyes are bulging and you're nursing
a semi 'cos you get to strafe those abolone-rustlers every morning, but
strangely enough, the hidden agenda of the poisonous bastards involved in
the solution-spec doesn't seen to bother you? That is until they launch a
pre-emtive strike on Jakarta.
Anyway Jan-Erik, if you really want a SOAP client RTL then I can see no
reason why HP or Freeware doesn't provide one. I don't know C/OpenSSL or I'd
give you one myself. (Give Mark Daniel a decent fee and I'm sure you'll have
one in a month)
But maybe I'm wrong, maybe you really want: - WS-Addressing,
WS-ReliableMessaging, WS-Coordination, WS-AtomicTransaction, WS-Security,
WS-Security Policy, WS-Trust, WS-SecureConversation, WS-Policy,
WS-MetadataExchange
It's up to you. . .
Cheers Richard Maher
PS. Go on! ask those fuckers what their WS-AT solution is for VMS! Ask them
about latent ACMS support for TIP! Ask them about Tier3 support for TIP!
What would you image the difference between WS-Coordinationa and WS-AT to
be?
Ah who gives a shit? You clearly don't :-(
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Richard Maher
Post by Michael Anderson
Web services (SOAP) is a big deal right now for our customers
Really? Which VMS customers and why?
Any customer who wants their VMS systems to act as clients
to WEB-services servers, I guess...
Post by Richard Maher
So some would have us believe (...) that gSOAP is for
VMS 3GLs to call remote SOAP routines,...
It is. What is the problem with that ?
(And from what I understand, WSIT is of limited use there.)
And not having to use ODS5 and install Java kit is/could
be a big plus, depending on your actual environment.
Jan-Erik.
Richard Maher
2007-11-07 23:32:20 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jan-Erik,
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
[A lot of crap included after my post...]
Ah, it wasn't all bad. (And I'm not sure that I appreciate your tone :-)
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
- The API is XML/SOAP based.
Now tell me, what would *you*, Mr Maher, use to access these
services from your own VMS system ? Whould you write XML/SOAP
code all from scratch ?
I'd approach my supplier and their support people with a very reasonable
expectation that they'd provide me with just such a mechanism/API for
*integrating* with the outside world. The fact that apparently, no such
supported solution exists, speaks volumes for VMS Middle-Management's
attitude toward its "legacy" Procedural-3GL installed base :-( Clearly such
new-fangled requirements are the exclusive domain of the hip Java dudes?

But personally given these requirements, yes, rather than take a gSOAP
sledge-hammer to crack a nut (and in the absence of a supported solution) I
would prefer to code a supportable solution from scratch. I doubt that we're
talking rocket science here and all the SSL, XML-parsing/building and
a.n.other infrastructure routines are all readily available. (Sadly "C" only
so I'd have to get someone in :-)

But are you really being Christopher Columbus here? After all these years on
VMS has noone else actually said "Hold on, I need to talk SOAP to the
outside world."? My guess (recollection?) is that you're not, and if you're
willing to turn you requirement around to "How do I call a Java routine from
Cobol?" then there may be other options available to you. What was the exact
answer from the WSIT people?

The point I was making was that nobody (certainly not at HP/VMS) is
particulary interested in your requirements apart from how easily they can
be cynically manipulated to meet someone's own ends. You want a simple
LIB$CALL_SOAP, version, xmlIn, xmlOut, and that has been transformed into a
career path for an under-employed Cecil.B.DeMille cast of thousands :-( But
the true insidiousness of the gSOAP functional-creep is how no one at VMS
middle-management will be held accountable for the BridgeWorks debacle
followed by the WSIT "Wrong again -Doh!"

If they can get gSOAP onto the books before anyone realizes how much we keep
wasting on all these other solutions then they might just get away with it.
VMS Middle-management just doesn't do "Accountability".
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
I realy do not see why I should bother at all, but...
Something to do while having a coffee?
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Or, on a second thought, I find
your post offending enought to not concider Tier3 at all...
A tad harsh. Up there with that petulant David Beckham "Kick" :-)

Cheers Richard Maher
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
[A lot of crap included after my post...]
I realy do not see why I should bother at all, but...
- A public (auction) site that have published an "API"
to be able to run own applications against their system.
- The API is XML/SOAP based.
Now tell me, what would *you*, Mr Maher, use to access these
services from your own VMS system ? Whould you write XML/SOAP
code all from scratch ?
With my current knowledge, I thought the gSOAP kit
would fit in nicely.
*I* do not have *any* influence on the selected
technology at the actual site, of course.
Finely, your Tier3 platform *could* be a possible alternative
at another site where both VMS server and PC clients
are in-house, but the tone in your post aren't helping your
business, that's for sure. Or, on a second thought, I find
your post offending enought to not concider Tier3 at all...
Best Regards,
Jan-Erik.
Post by Richard Maher
Hi Jan-Erik,
[Before I go further; can we not please just discuss photos of the BF2000
spinning on a web-page while the Rdb-sourced monthly/regional sales-figures
manipulate Flash pie/bar charts on another section of the browser? Images
stored in the Rdb database along with the textual data? Backed-up in synch?]
Ok, oh well; I guess Planet-Maher is destined to be a lonely place :-(
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Any customer who wants their VMS systems to act as clients
to WEB-services servers, I guess...
And who are they and what are they doing *exactly*? I am not a troglodyte
here, I do understand the concept and the reality; what I'm trying to do is
separate the Gartner report (CV-Builder) fiction from what is really
happening at the VMS coal face. Are you really trying to pull down Google
Maps to your VAX Cobol programs, or is there a certain manufacturer that
mandates SOAP interoperability?
It's just that I've worked for years with DECnet then X.25 then FTP then
TCP/IP Socket middleware, in London financial exchanges all the way to
Dickie local governments, and I don't really understand this amazing "new"
problem that your solving.
Here's the crazy thing; I'm actually *asking* you for a *specific*
requirements-specification! There's certainly no shortage of
SOLUTIONIZING
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Richard Maher
barrow-boys who will relieve you of your cash, telling you what you *should*
be doing for their own ends, but I on the other hand wish to understand the
problem/requirements in more detail.
I've personally seen suppliers like Toyota regularly send 1MB+ SOAP/XML
messages down the line for reasons only known to themselves (and Gartner I
suppose?) and yet I've implemented a very effective (although still crap)
inter-car-dealer Spare Parts sales-system with plain old TCP/IP Sockets. But
what do the Jan-Erik's and Michaels of this world really want?
My *guess* is that you need this XML/RPC in SOAP-drag thing where you can
say:-
?XML Bollocks Transitional 0.5 Look like SOAP?
<RequestRecord>
<PartNumber>123</PartNumber>
</RequestRecord>
and recieve a:-
<DickieAnswer>
<QtyOH>33</QtyOH>
followed by lots of CRLF bollocks. . .
Am I pretty close to the mark here???
So how much of the gSOAP source-code footprint, do you really think is
involved in solving that little requirement eh? 1 maybe 2 percent?
What the fuck do you think the rest of the Trojen-Horse is for???
Which part of that requirement involved a new HTTP Web Server eh? (On top of
WASD, Apache, OSU, T3 Applet Uploader)
Where is the gSOAP Tomcat? Where is the thread-pool, the server-pool, the
min-this the max-that? The server Containers? Are you still there Jan-Erik?
Hello, Hello, anyone home???
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Richard Maher
So some would have us believe (...) that gSOAP is for
VMS 3GLs to call remote SOAP routines,...
It is. What is the problem with that ?
(And from what I understand, WSIT is of limited use there.)
My recollection of the beatitudes is a little shakey but wasn't there a
"Blessed are the gullible for they will be buggered by VMS's IMM"?
As Inigo Montoya would say "Let me explain. .there is no time; let me
summarize":-
You have asked for the Artic Blue SportsWagon and this really "nice" guy has
told you that you actually want the WagonQueen Family Truxter. And you are
now jumping up and down saying "I really love the metallic-pea!".
Maybe here's a better analogy: - You're sick of illegal Indonesian fisherman
pilfering our waters off the Northwest coast and you've asked the federal
govt for help. To which they have responded with a purchase order for a
Nimitz-Class air-craft carrier. Now your eyes are bulging and you're nursing
a semi 'cos you get to strafe those abolone-rustlers every morning, but
strangely enough, the hidden agenda of the poisonous bastards involved in
the solution-spec doesn't seen to bother you? That is until they launch a
pre-emtive strike on Jakarta.
Anyway Jan-Erik, if you really want a SOAP client RTL then I can see no
reason why HP or Freeware doesn't provide one. I don't know C/OpenSSL or I'd
give you one myself. (Give Mark Daniel a decent fee and I'm sure you'll have
one in a month)
But maybe I'm wrong, maybe you really want: - WS-Addressing,
WS-ReliableMessaging, WS-Coordination, WS-AtomicTransaction,
WS-Security,
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Richard Maher
WS-Security Policy, WS-Trust, WS-SecureConversation, WS-Policy,
WS-MetadataExchange
It's up to you. . .
Cheers Richard Maher
PS. Go on! ask those fuckers what their WS-AT solution is for VMS! Ask them
about latent ACMS support for TIP! Ask them about Tier3 support for TIP!
What would you image the difference between WS-Coordinationa and WS-AT to
be?
Ah who gives a shit? You clearly don't :-(
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Richard Maher
Post by Michael Anderson
Web services (SOAP) is a big deal right now for our customers
Really? Which VMS customers and why?
Any customer who wants their VMS systems to act as clients
to WEB-services servers, I guess...
Post by Richard Maher
So some would have us believe (...) that gSOAP is for
VMS 3GLs to call remote SOAP routines,...
It is. What is the problem with that ?
(And from what I understand, WSIT is of limited use there.)
And not having to use ODS5 and install Java kit is/could
be a big plus, depending on your actual environment.
Jan-Erik.
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2007-11-07 23:10:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Maher
Hi Jan-Erik,
Hi there... :-)
Post by Richard Maher
But personally given these requirements, yes, rather than take a gSOAP
sledge-hammer to crack a nut (and in the absence of a supported solution) I
would prefer to code a supportable solution from scratch. I doubt that we're
talking rocket science here and all the SSL, XML-parsing/building and
a.n.other infrastructure routines are all readily available. (Sadly "C" only
so I'd have to get someone in :-)
Now, gSOAP doesn't do much att all, realy.

It takes the interface description (WSDL) as published
and produces header files and funtions stubs and whatever
to make writing those C, COBOL, Fortran apps easier. You get
your record descriptions and structures ready to use.

I would not call gSOAP a sledge-hammer, it's just
a couple of rather simple conversion tools!

Now, after that, it's just some libs to link against.
No Java, no ODS-5, none of the OS version limits of WSIT.

Now I'm just lacking a tool that creates Rdb CREATE TABLE
statements from the WSDL... :-)

Jan-Erik.
Richard Maher
2007-11-08 12:40:46 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jan-Erik,
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Now, gSOAP doesn't do much att all, realy.
I would not call gSOAP a sledge-hammer, it's just
a couple of rather simple conversion tools!
Maybe there is a "client-only" version of gSOAP available, or maybe I'm
looking at a different "gSOAP" in Wikipedia, but I personally find the
following functionality to be excessive in a client API : -

- The gSOAP Web services development toolkit offers an XML to C/C++ language
binding to ease the development of SOAP/XML Web services in C and C/C++.
- Includes stand-alone HTTP/1.1 and HTTPS secure Web Server.
- gSOAP's memory management uses garbage collection so (deserialized) data
can be cleaned up without a hassle.
- Client and server (HTTP Web server and SOAP/XML engine included)
- Offers Apache_mod, IIS, WinInet, CGI, and FastCGI interfaces.
- Architecture features:
integrated memory management with automatic leak detection in debug mode
compiler-based XML serialization of native C and C++ data structures
custom serializers and DOM support
plug-ins for extensions (message logging, statistics, etc.)
- The toolkit automatically serializes pointer-based data structure graphs,
including cyclic graphs and pointers to derived class instances to support
polymorphism.

Is that really what you had in mind Jan-Erik? Polymorphic deserialization
issues getting you down :-)

Once again, to me this screams "WSIT is a pile of shit and we don't need
your Java, JVM, or GC, 'cos we've got our own C/C++ baby, and it rocks!".
Anyway, regardless of the merits of that argument, all I ask is that its
proponents are cut loose from the sheltered-workshop that is HP/VMS these
days, and are asked to fend for themselves. (Such artificial and
counter-productive cross-subsidization is certainly illegal in the EU.)

Bridgeworks was an abject failure by anyones's standards and WSIT is clearly
going (gone!) the same way :-( Don't let them get away with it! Hold those
bastards accountable! gSOAP *IS* being positioned as the WSIT replacement by
the same talentless wankers that sold you Rally, COM, DECadmire, ACMSxp,
ONC/RPC, DCE/RPC, BridgeWorks, Forte.

Just say NO to ineptitude!

Cheers Richard Maher
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Richard Maher
Hi Jan-Erik,
Hi there... :-)
Post by Richard Maher
But personally given these requirements, yes, rather than take a gSOAP
sledge-hammer to crack a nut (and in the absence of a supported solution) I
would prefer to code a supportable solution from scratch. I doubt that we're
talking rocket science here and all the SSL, XML-parsing/building and
a.n.other infrastructure routines are all readily available. (Sadly "C" only
so I'd have to get someone in :-)
Now, gSOAP doesn't do much att all, realy.
It takes the interface description (WSDL) as published
and produces header files and funtions stubs and whatever
to make writing those C, COBOL, Fortran apps easier. You get
your record descriptions and structures ready to use.
I would not call gSOAP a sledge-hammer, it's just
a couple of rather simple conversion tools!
Now, after that, it's just some libs to link against.
No Java, no ODS-5, none of the OS version limits of WSIT.
Now I'm just lacking a tool that creates Rdb CREATE TABLE
statements from the WSDL... :-)
Jan-Erik.
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2007-11-08 13:48:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Maher
Hi Jan-Erik,
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Now, gSOAP doesn't do much att all, realy.
I would not call gSOAP a sledge-hammer, it's just
a couple of rather simple conversion tools!
Maybe there is a "client-only" version of gSOAP available,...
No idea, I've just looked at the VMS specific gSOAP kit.

It's only aprox 6 meg and 31 files. Actualy only *6* files
if you exclude the samples directories. 2 EXE's, 1 .H
file and 3 OLB's. That's it. The remaining 25 files are
a bunch of COM and .C files in 4 sample directories.

Maybe you'd better take a few minutes looking at it.

Jan-Erik.
Richard Maher
2007-11-10 09:57:31 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jan-Erik,
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Maybe you'd better take a few minutes looking at it.
The following are our priorities/desires at Tier3, with (as usual)
absolutely *no* assistance from HP/VMS: -

1) Investigate/produce an Adobe Flash client to illustrate to potential
customers how easy it would be to expose their VMS data and business logic
to modern browser based animated GUIs. What I'm hoping/anticipating is that
Flash's Data Binding means that if I feed an array with progressive data
(such as the departments an employee belongs to, from the Rdb Employees
table) then the Pie/Bar graphs should move/shape as the data arrives. Sounds
sexy doesn't it? WELL DOESN'T IT???

But as Winston Churchill once said "Never before in the field of IT
endeavour have so many expected so little from the HP/VMS wankers that get
paid so much!".

2) Itanium port. Unfortunately there are no "Porting Workshops" in Perth and
apparently all of the IA64 boxes in Christchurch are busy doing something
that no customer is paying for. Well as long as HP are getting value for
money that's the main thing :-( Getting the same bang-for-buck out of their
hardware as they are they are their employees I guess? When/if they're
finished porting someone's pet project, then I'm more than willing to pay
the $2K (without the porting class)

But then they've never thrown me a fucking bone before, so why start now eh?

3) Asynch JSObject. When Arne (or a.n.other) tells me whether we should
continue to invest in JSObject.call() or that the Common DOM API is finally
taking off, then we want to have asynchronous (seperate thread?) Socket
reads that with update the Web page DOM as data arrives from the VMS server.
Sexy again, nes pas?

4) Improve the Applet uploader. Currently the t3$app_loader process can not
properly handle <cr><lf> terminated data (such as anything that has a
content-type of "text/*" which means it's pretty limited to serving
Applets/Images et al. Some have asked that it handle text/html files
properly so that they don't need to run any other web-browser on their VMS
boxes.

So you can see that we're a little busy at the moment (not to mention that
*WE* appear to be unique in having to do something to pay the bills).

Does the above not sound exciting to anyone else? The VMS renaissance is at
hand; why not embrace it?
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
It's only aprox 6 meg and 31 files. Actualy only *6* files
if you exclude the samples directories. 2 EXE's, 1 .H
file and 3 OLB's. That's it. The remaining 25 files are
a bunch of COM and .C files in 4 sample directories.
OK, so far they've only invaded Poland. So how bad could it get eh? They're
all bloody Prussians anyway :-) and there's absolutely no reason to expect
that filth to head for the Sudatanland.

For fuck sake Jan-Erik, I'll bet you whatever you like that right now in
some grotty CHCH sweat-shop :-) the gSOAP Garbage Collector is being
debugged as we speak! (Nah, actually I think you're right; they wouldn't
give up their spare time for this shit and will be waiting till Monday to
kick-off again)

When is the next round of HP redundancies again? Am I being of any assitance
in focusing anyone's attention here? How the Christian Mosers of this world
can be put to the knife, while this shit is going on, is an absolute crime!
Shame on you you bastards - SHAME!

Regards Richard Maher

PS. Why is it that so many despot Auslanders choose to set up their Eagle's
Nests in Bavaria?
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Richard Maher
Hi Jan-Erik,
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Now, gSOAP doesn't do much att all, realy.
I would not call gSOAP a sledge-hammer, it's just
a couple of rather simple conversion tools!
Maybe there is a "client-only" version of gSOAP available,...
No idea, I've just looked at the VMS specific gSOAP kit.
It's only aprox 6 meg and 31 files. Actualy only *6* files
if you exclude the samples directories. 2 EXE's, 1 .H
file and 3 OLB's. That's it. The remaining 25 files are
a bunch of COM and .C files in 4 sample directories.
Maybe you'd better take a few minutes looking at it.
Jan-Erik.
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2007-11-10 13:11:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Maher
Hi Jan-Erik,
The following are our priorities/desires at Tier3...
1) Investigate/produce an Adobe Flash client to illustrate to potential
customers how easy it would be to expose their VMS data and business logic
to modern browser based animated GUIs....
Both this (and the similar non-graphic tool you showed before)
*ARE* realy nice. Absolutely. My plan is to talk about them
at a customer (togther with a quick summary from the VMS
Tech Upd days) in a couple of weeks.
Post by Richard Maher
2) Itanium port....
Logical step, I guess...
Post by Richard Maher
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
It's only aprox 6 meg and 31 files. Actualy only *6* files
if you exclude the samples directories. 2 EXE's, 1 .H
file and 3 OLB's. That's it. The remaining 25 files are
a bunch of COM and .C files in 4 sample directories.
OK, so far they've only invaded Poland. So how bad could it get eh? They're
all bloody Prussians anyway :-) and there's absolutely no reason to expect
that filth to head for the Sudatanland.
For fuck sake Jan-Erik, I'll bet you whatever you like that right now in
some grotty CHCH sweat-shop :-) the gSOAP Garbage Collector is being
debugged as we speak!
Here I'm completly lost. I've no idea what so ever
what you're talking about...

Jan-Erik.
Richard Maher
2007-11-17 07:30:38 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jan-Erik,
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Both this (and the similar non-graphic tool you showed before)
*ARE* realy nice. Absolutely. My plan is to talk about them
at a customer (togther with a quick summary from the VMS
Tech Upd days) in a couple of weeks.
Glad you like them! Also happy to help in any way once you get your VMS
hobbyist kit up and running.
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Richard Maher
2) Itanium port....
Logical step, I guess...
Others say that would be a Linux port :-( But I'm a glutton for punishment
:-)
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Here I'm completly lost. I've no idea what so ever
what you're talking about...
Having just re-read my post I have to say that you could be forgiven for not
deciphering my garbled gibberish :-)

Here are the points I was trying to make: -

1) If you find the gSOAP philosophy to be the most appropriate for your SOAP
*client* needs then that's great, but there are alternative SOAP client
tools/strategies available for VMS (that I can't name off the top of my
head, but I'm sure are being used by others in this newsgroup) that your HP
support rep should make you aware of.

2) HP/VMS (for reasons only known to themselves) have been covertly funding
the gSOAP *server* port to VMS in seemingly schizophrenic competition with
the Web Services Integration Toolkit (and, to a lesser extent, Tier3). How
can they possibly ask customers to invest development dollars and staff
retraining on this Waste of Substantial Investment in Technology, when
evidently they have been grooming its gSOAP successor for some time?

If this is, in fact, not the case and what we are witnessing here are just
some rogue employees or loose cannons cracking under the sword of democlese
then I, for one, would firmly expect them to be reigned in, or out, as the
case may be.

But then, sadly, it appears that the unaccountable rabble at HP/VMS get to
do whatever they like, whenever they like :-(

Which hymn sheet are we on today? How much did WSIT + BridgeWorks cost
again?

Cheers Richard Maher
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Richard Maher
Hi Jan-Erik,
The following are our priorities/desires at Tier3...
1) Investigate/produce an Adobe Flash client to illustrate to potential
customers how easy it would be to expose their VMS data and business logic
to modern browser based animated GUIs....
Both this (and the similar non-graphic tool you showed before)
*ARE* realy nice. Absolutely. My plan is to talk about them
at a customer (togther with a quick summary from the VMS
Tech Upd days) in a couple of weeks.
Post by Richard Maher
2) Itanium port....
Logical step, I guess...
Post by Richard Maher
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
It's only aprox 6 meg and 31 files. Actualy only *6* files
if you exclude the samples directories. 2 EXE's, 1 .H
file and 3 OLB's. That's it. The remaining 25 files are
a bunch of COM and .C files in 4 sample directories.
OK, so far they've only invaded Poland. So how bad could it get eh? They're
all bloody Prussians anyway :-) and there's absolutely no reason to expect
that filth to head for the Sudatanland.
For fuck sake Jan-Erik, I'll bet you whatever you like that right now in
some grotty CHCH sweat-shop :-) the gSOAP Garbage Collector is being
debugged as we speak!
Here I'm completly lost. I've no idea what so ever
what you're talking about...
Jan-Erik.
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2007-11-17 11:19:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Maher
1) If you find the gSOAP philosophy to be the most appropriate
for your SOAP *client* needs then that's great,...
Yes, so far it seems so. I've just got a late-enough
C compiler installed to be able to compile using the
kit.
Post by Richard Maher
but there are alternative SOAP client
tools/strategies available for VMS (that I can't name off the top of my
head, but I'm sure are being used by others in this newsgroup)...
If they do roughly the same thing, I guess they should
work just as well. But, right now using gSOAP/VMS seems
to work well enough for *this* particular project.

Jan-Erik.
IanMiller
2007-11-03 20:19:15 UTC
Permalink
Also announced on www.OpenVMS,Org
http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=07/11/01/0255836

with extra info in the hope of reaching the people who don't read this
newsgroup any more.
Rich Jordan
2007-11-19 22:44:55 UTC
Permalink
Also announced onwww.OpenVMS,Orghttp://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=07/11/01/0255836
with extra info in the hope of reaching the people who don't read this
newsgroup any more.
So at the risk of either getting no response at all, or a verbalanche,
I'll ask...

Is GSoap just a variation on the SOAP toolkits provided since the
compaq days (per http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/soap/soap.html)
or the upcoming replacement Apache Axis-2 packages)?

A lighter or easier to use "front end" package perhaps?

I remember downloading the Compaq Soap 1.0 package in 2001-2002
timeframe but we never were able to make the time to work with it.

Rich
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2007-11-19 23:23:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Jordan
Also announced onwww.OpenVMS,Orghttp://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=07/11/01/0255836
with extra info in the hope of reaching the people who don't read this
newsgroup any more.
So at the risk of either getting no response at all, or a verbalanche,
I'll ask...
Is GSoap just a variation on the SOAP toolkits provided since the
compaq days (per http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/soap/soap.html)
or the upcoming replacement Apache Axis-2 packages)?
That one was a Java-tool.

gSOAP is to build API from "normal" 3G's such as C or whatever...

No ODS5. No Java.

Jan-Erik
(hoping to have my first proof-of-concept case running
in a week or so...)
Rich Jordan
2007-11-20 00:24:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Post by Rich Jordan
Also announced onwww.OpenVMS,Orghttp://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=07/11/01/0255836
with extra info in the hope of reaching the people who don't read this
newsgroup any more.
So at the risk of either getting no response at all, or a verbalanche,
I'll ask...
Is GSoap just a variation on the SOAP toolkits provided since the
compaq days (perhttp://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/soap/soap.html)
or the upcoming replacement Apache Axis-2 packages)?
That one was a Java-tool.
gSOAP is to build API from "normal" 3G's such as C or whatever...
No ODS5. No Java.
Jan-Erik
(hoping to have my first proof-of-concept case running
in a week or so...)
Thanks!

Rich

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