Discussion:
Rust language community in chaos
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Simon Clubley
2021-11-23 18:56:26 UTC
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It looks like Rust development is basically in meltdown as the entire
Rust moderation team has just resigned.

https://www.theregister.com/2021/11/23/rust_moderation_team_quits/

https://github.com/rust-lang/team/pull/671

Perhaps the next language that comes along to replace Rust can focus
more on the "implementing and improving the language" bit and less on
all the drama associated with all the Code of Conduct stuff.

I make that comment because, so far, it looks like the latter is what
this is about.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Arne Vajhøj
2021-11-23 19:20:27 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
It looks like Rust development is basically in meltdown as the entire
Rust moderation team has just resigned.
https://www.theregister.com/2021/11/23/rust_moderation_team_quits/
https://github.com/rust-lang/team/pull/671
Perhaps the next language that comes along to replace Rust can focus
more on the "implementing and improving the language" bit and less on
all the drama associated with all the Code of Conduct stuff.
I make that comment because, so far, it looks like the latter is what
this is about.
Maybe saying that Rust development is in meltdown is a bit let
us call it "TheRegister like".

All the members of the team that oversees that the other teams
follow code of conduct has resigned.

The teams that provide technical oversight, design the language,
develop the compiler and do the releases have not resigned.

Can they find replacements for those team members? Obviously
yes - it is not a team that require any rare skills. And in
fact they have already found 2 people.

Is the Rust project dependent on this team working? Maybe
I am old fashioned but I would say no. I think the Rust project
could do fine without it. Open source projects existed for
decades without such teams. That does not imply that
having such a team is bad - I am just saying that it is
not "must have" - whether it is "nice to have" or "useless"
is a different discussion.

Arne
Simon Clubley
2021-11-23 19:26:23 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
It looks like Rust development is basically in meltdown as the entire
Rust moderation team has just resigned.
https://www.theregister.com/2021/11/23/rust_moderation_team_quits/
https://github.com/rust-lang/team/pull/671
Perhaps the next language that comes along to replace Rust can focus
more on the "implementing and improving the language" bit and less on
all the drama associated with all the Code of Conduct stuff.
I make that comment because, so far, it looks like the latter is what
this is about.
Maybe saying that Rust development is in meltdown is a bit let
us call it "TheRegister like".
All the members of the team that oversees that the other teams
follow code of conduct has resigned.
The teams that provide technical oversight, design the language,
develop the compiler and do the releases have not resigned.
And that may be the real upcoming problem. Based on what has come
out so far, it looks like there are serious problems in the Core team
and none of them appear to have resigned.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Arne Vajhøj
2021-11-23 19:35:32 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
It looks like Rust development is basically in meltdown as the entire
Rust moderation team has just resigned.
https://www.theregister.com/2021/11/23/rust_moderation_team_quits/
https://github.com/rust-lang/team/pull/671
Perhaps the next language that comes along to replace Rust can focus
more on the "implementing and improving the language" bit and less on
all the drama associated with all the Code of Conduct stuff.
I make that comment because, so far, it looks like the latter is what
this is about.
Maybe saying that Rust development is in meltdown is a bit let
us call it "TheRegister like".
All the members of the team that oversees that the other teams
follow code of conduct has resigned.
The teams that provide technical oversight, design the language,
develop the compiler and do the releases have not resigned.
And that may be the real upcoming problem. Based on what has come
out so far, it looks like there are serious problems in the Core team
and none of them appear to have resigned.
It is clearly stated in the resignation that the core team does
not like to be moderated regarding code of conduct by the
moderation team.

But considering how many open source projects that has
thrived for decades without even having code of conduct
and a moderation team then it is not obvious to me
what the "serious problem" is.

Arne
Arne Vajhøj
2021-11-23 19:40:15 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
It looks like Rust development is basically in meltdown as the entire
Rust moderation team has just resigned.
https://www.theregister.com/2021/11/23/rust_moderation_team_quits/
https://github.com/rust-lang/team/pull/671
Perhaps the next language that comes along to replace Rust can focus
more on the "implementing and improving the language" bit and less on
all the drama associated with all the Code of Conduct stuff.
I make that comment because, so far, it looks like the latter is what
this is about.
Maybe saying that Rust development is in meltdown is a bit let
us call it "TheRegister like".
All the members of the team that oversees that the other teams
follow code of conduct has resigned.
The teams that provide technical oversight, design the language,
develop the compiler and do the releases have not resigned.
And that may be the real upcoming problem. Based on what has come
out so far, it looks like there are serious problems in the Core team
and none of them appear to have resigned.
It is clearly stated in the resignation that the core team does
not like to be moderated regarding code of conduct by the
moderation team.
But considering how many open source projects that has
thrived for decades without even having code of conduct
and a moderation team then it is not obvious to me
what the "serious problem" is.
I could see a serious problem if the core team had resigned
and the moderation team had stayed!

Arne
Dave Froble
2021-11-24 01:59:11 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
It looks like Rust development is basically in meltdown as the entire
Rust moderation team has just resigned.
https://www.theregister.com/2021/11/23/rust_moderation_team_quits/
https://github.com/rust-lang/team/pull/671
Perhaps the next language that comes along to replace Rust can focus
more on the "implementing and improving the language" bit and less on
all the drama associated with all the Code of Conduct stuff.
I make that comment because, so far, it looks like the latter is what
this is about.
Maybe saying that Rust development is in meltdown is a bit let
us call it "TheRegister like".
All the members of the team that oversees that the other teams
follow code of conduct has resigned.
The teams that provide technical oversight, design the language,
develop the compiler and do the releases have not resigned.
And that may be the real upcoming problem. Based on what has come
out so far, it looks like there are serious problems in the Core team
and none of them appear to have resigned.
It is clearly stated in the resignation that the core team does
not like to be moderated regarding code of conduct by the
moderation team.
But considering how many open source projects that has
thrived for decades without even having code of conduct
and a moderation team then it is not obvious to me
what the "serious problem" is.
Arne
Well, sometimes in these things, there is happenings like MySQL and MarieDB.

What's next? Corrosion?

:-)
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Arne Vajhøj
2021-11-24 02:26:40 UTC
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Post by Dave Froble
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Maybe saying that Rust development is in meltdown is a bit let
us call it "TheRegister like".
All the members of the team that oversees that the other teams
follow code of conduct has resigned.
The teams that provide technical oversight, design the language,
develop the compiler and do the releases have not resigned.
And that may be the real upcoming problem. Based on what has come
out so far, it looks like there are serious problems in the Core team
and none of them appear to have resigned.
It is clearly stated in the resignation that the core team does
not like to be moderated regarding code of conduct by the
moderation team.
But considering how many open source projects that has
thrived for decades without even having code of conduct
and a moderation team then it is not obvious to me
what the "serious problem" is.
Well, sometimes in these things, there is happenings like MySQL and MarieDB.
Forks happens. If developers feel the project is going in the
wrong direction.

The MySQL - MariaDB thing was because MySQL was sold to Oracle and some
of the developers did not like "the Oracle way" so they forked.

But somehow I do not see a team of code of conduct watchers fork
the project.
Post by Dave Froble
What's next?  Corrosion?
That name is already taken.

It is the name of the Rust IDE (based on Eclipse).

Arne
Simon Clubley
2021-11-24 13:59:02 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
And that may be the real upcoming problem. Based on what has come
out so far, it looks like there are serious problems in the Core team
and none of them appear to have resigned.
It is clearly stated in the resignation that the core team does
not like to be moderated regarding code of conduct by the
moderation team.
So IOW, one set of rules for the leaders and a different set of rules
for everyone else.
Post by Arne Vajhøj
But considering how many open source projects that has
thrived for decades without even having code of conduct
and a moderation team then it is not obvious to me
what the "serious problem" is.
That's the old way of doing things.

In the new fashionable way of doing things, you are supposed to
declare how your language is a socially conscious language and
then bring along all the CoC and moderation infrastructure to
support that.

That's exactly the kind of statement the Rust people made BTW when
they setup the Rust language project.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Arne Vajhøj
2021-11-24 14:17:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
And that may be the real upcoming problem. Based on what has come
out so far, it looks like there are serious problems in the Core team
and none of them appear to have resigned.
It is clearly stated in the resignation that the core team does
not like to be moderated regarding code of conduct by the
moderation team.
So IOW, one set of rules for the leaders and a different set of rules
for everyone else.
That seems to be why the moderation team resigned yes.
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
But considering how many open source projects that has
thrived for decades without even having code of conduct
and a moderation team then it is not obvious to me
what the "serious problem" is.
That's the old way of doing things.
In the new fashionable way of doing things, you are supposed to
declare how your language is a socially conscious language and
then bring along all the CoC and moderation infrastructure to
support that.
That's exactly the kind of statement the Rust people made BTW when
they setup the Rust language project.
My point is that there are two different questions:
1) is the "old way" still able to produce software?
2) is the "new way" morally better than the "old way"?

And I think the answer to question #1 is YES.

Which means that the risk for Rust users is minimal.

Arne
Simon Clubley
2021-11-24 18:45:38 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
But considering how many open source projects that has
thrived for decades without even having code of conduct
and a moderation team then it is not obvious to me
what the "serious problem" is.
That's the old way of doing things.
In the new fashionable way of doing things, you are supposed to
declare how your language is a socially conscious language and
then bring along all the CoC and moderation infrastructure to
support that.
That's exactly the kind of statement the Rust people made BTW when
they setup the Rust language project.
1) is the "old way" still able to produce software?
2) is the "new way" morally better than the "old way"?
And I think the answer to question #1 is YES.
Which means that the risk for Rust users is minimal.
You are making the rather naive assumption that people interested in
pushing 2) as the way forward would allow the Rust development model
to switch to the 1) old way of doing development and hence get rid of
all the new infrastructure. :-)

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Arne Vajhøj
2021-11-24 19:14:55 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
But considering how many open source projects that has
thrived for decades without even having code of conduct
and a moderation team then it is not obvious to me
what the "serious problem" is.
That's the old way of doing things.
In the new fashionable way of doing things, you are supposed to
declare how your language is a socially conscious language and
then bring along all the CoC and moderation infrastructure to
support that.
That's exactly the kind of statement the Rust people made BTW when
they setup the Rust language project.
1) is the "old way" still able to produce software?
2) is the "new way" morally better than the "old way"?
And I think the answer to question #1 is YES.
Which means that the risk for Rust users is minimal.
You are making the rather naive assumption that people interested in
pushing 2) as the way forward would allow the Rust development model
to switch to the 1) old way of doing development and hence get rid of
all the new infrastructure. :-)
But they are not getting rid of the new infrastructure.

If you read your own links then they already appointed a couple of new
members to the moderation team.

Maybe a large number of Rust contributors will revolt and force the
core team to accept being overseen by moderation team.

But I would not hold my breath until it happens.

Arne
Simon Clubley
2021-11-25 13:06:50 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
But considering how many open source projects that has
thrived for decades without even having code of conduct
and a moderation team then it is not obvious to me
what the "serious problem" is.
That's the old way of doing things.
In the new fashionable way of doing things, you are supposed to
declare how your language is a socially conscious language and
then bring along all the CoC and moderation infrastructure to
support that.
That's exactly the kind of statement the Rust people made BTW when
they setup the Rust language project.
1) is the "old way" still able to produce software?
2) is the "new way" morally better than the "old way"?
And I think the answer to question #1 is YES.
Which means that the risk for Rust users is minimal.
You are making the rather naive assumption that people interested in
pushing 2) as the way forward would allow the Rust development model
to switch to the 1) old way of doing development and hence get rid of
all the new infrastructure. :-)
But they are not getting rid of the new infrastructure.
If you read your own links then they already appointed a couple of new
members to the moderation team.
Maybe a large number of Rust contributors will revolt and force the
core team to accept being overseen by moderation team.
But I would not hold my breath until it happens.
Arne, you have answered a different question to the one you asked above.

You were asking if Rust could switch to the old way of developing
open source software. My reply was to point out why that isn't going
to happen.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Arne Vajhøj
2021-11-25 18:58:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
But considering how many open source projects that has
thrived for decades without even having code of conduct
and a moderation team then it is not obvious to me
what the "serious problem" is.
That's the old way of doing things.
In the new fashionable way of doing things, you are supposed to
declare how your language is a socially conscious language and
then bring along all the CoC and moderation infrastructure to
support that.
That's exactly the kind of statement the Rust people made BTW when
they setup the Rust language project.
1) is the "old way" still able to produce software?
2) is the "new way" morally better than the "old way"?
And I think the answer to question #1 is YES.
Which means that the risk for Rust users is minimal.
You are making the rather naive assumption that people interested in
pushing 2) as the way forward would allow the Rust development model
to switch to the 1) old way of doing development and hence get rid of
all the new infrastructure. :-)
But they are not getting rid of the new infrastructure.
If you read your own links then they already appointed a couple of new
members to the moderation team.
Maybe a large number of Rust contributors will revolt and force the
core team to accept being overseen by moderation team.
But I would not hold my breath until it happens.
Arne, you have answered a different question to the one you asked above.
You were asking if Rust could switch to the old way of developing
open source software. My reply was to point out why that isn't going
to happen.
It is not happening because it does not seem to be what the core
team want to do.

But that does not mean that they could not produce software if
they went that route.

And that means that there is not really any need to be worried
for the future of the language.

Arne

went that
Arne Vajhøj
2021-11-26 14:28:52 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
But considering how many open source projects that has
thrived for decades without even having code of conduct
and a moderation team then it is not obvious to me
what the "serious problem" is.
That's the old way of doing things.
In the new fashionable way of doing things, you are supposed to
declare how your language is a socially conscious language and
then bring along all the CoC and moderation infrastructure to
support that.
That's exactly the kind of statement the Rust people made BTW when
they setup the Rust language project.
1) is the "old way" still able to produce software?
2) is the "new way" morally better than the "old way"?
And I think the answer to question #1 is YES.
Which means that the risk for Rust users is minimal.
You are making the rather naive assumption that people interested in
pushing 2) as the way forward would allow the Rust development model
to switch to the 1) old way of doing development and hence get rid of
all the new infrastructure. :-)
But they are not getting rid of the new infrastructure.
If you read your own links then they already appointed a couple of new
members to the moderation team.
Maybe a large number of Rust contributors will revolt and force the
core team to accept being overseen by moderation team.
But I would not hold my breath until it happens.
Arne, you have answered a different question to the one you asked above.
You were asking if Rust could switch to the old way of developing
open source software. My reply was to point out why that isn't going
to happen.
It is not happening because it does not seem to be what the core
team want to do.
But that does not mean that they could not produce software if
they went that route.
And that means that there is not really any need to be worried
for the future of the language.
https://blog.rust-lang.org/inside-rust/2021/11/25/in-response-to-the-moderation-team-resignation.html

Core team seems to stick to the course and it looks like the leads
of the other teams are on board.

So no impact on Rust.

Arne
Simon Clubley
2021-11-26 18:38:01 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
https://blog.rust-lang.org/inside-rust/2021/11/25/in-response-to-the-moderation-team-resignation.html
Core team seems to stick to the course and it looks like the leads
of the other teams are on board.
So no impact on Rust.
Reddit has a less charitable take on that response: :-)

https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/r1yhgt/in_response_to_the_moderation_team_resignation/

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2021-11-23 21:38:10 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
It looks like Rust development is basically in meltdown as the entire
Rust moderation team has just resigned.
https://www.theregister.com/2021/11/23/rust_moderation_team_quits/
https://github.com/rust-lang/team/pull/671
Perhaps the next language that comes along to replace Rust can focus
more on the "implementing and improving the language" bit and less on
all the drama associated with all the Code of Conduct stuff.
I make that comment because, so far, it looks like the latter is what
this is about.
And Python broke backward compatibility.

Maybe it was good that I didn't take the advice to learn some newer
languages. :-]
Arne Vajhøj
2021-11-23 23:45:05 UTC
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Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
And Python broke backward compatibility.
Maybe it was good that I didn't take the advice to learn some newer
languages. :-]
Even Fortran has removed some old features in latest standards ...

Arne
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2021-11-24 07:52:03 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
And Python broke backward compatibility.
Maybe it was good that I didn't take the advice to learn some newer
languages. :-]
Even Fortran has removed some old features in latest standards ...
Yes, but:

o only things for which there are better alternatives

o they were deprecated years or decades in advance

o compilers still support them

o the process of removal is well organized

o no-one complains about it
Dave Froble
2021-11-24 01:56:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
It looks like Rust development is basically in meltdown as the entire
Rust moderation team has just resigned.
https://www.theregister.com/2021/11/23/rust_moderation_team_quits/
This part is interesting.

"done in protest of the Core Team placing themselves unaccountable to anyone but
themselves."

Now, if it is a technical thing, consider them changing things (al-la Python V2
vs Python V3) such that existing software no longer works? Not saying that is
an issue. But it is a possible consequence of such "open" software.

Just hoping for JR and minions getting Basic working on x86 VMS.
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Arne Vajhøj
2021-11-24 02:22:47 UTC
Reply
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Post by Dave Froble
Post by Simon Clubley
It looks like Rust development is basically in meltdown as the entire
Rust moderation team has just resigned.
https://www.theregister.com/2021/11/23/rust_moderation_team_quits/
This part is interesting.
"done in protest of the Core Team placing themselves unaccountable to
anyone but themselves."
Now, if it is a technical thing, consider them changing things (al-la
Python V2 vs Python V3) such that existing software no longer works?
Not saying that is an issue.
The team that quit are responsible for code of conduct.

So it is not likely to be anything technical.

More likely the core team has been consistently rude to more
junior project members and ignored the moderation team when
they pointed out that it was non compliant with code of conduct.

Arne
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