FreeAXP™ - A Free Virtual Alpha System

[IanMiller]

Migration Specialties has announced a beta release of FreeAXP, a
technology demonstrator and free AlphaServer 400 hardware emulator.
FreeAXP is designed to be hosted on a Windows X86 and x64 systems.

Visit http://www.migrationspecialties.com/FreeAXP and click the
FreeAXP Download (Beta) link on the left side of the page. You will
also find links to the FreeAXP Release Notes, FreeAXP User Guide,
FreeAXP forum, and other FreeAXP documentation on the FreeAXP page.

Support is via the FreeAXP forum on the openvmshobbyist web site.

There will be a commercial Alphaerver emulator product from Migration
Specialties later this year.

[Jim]

Post by IanMiller
Migration Specialties has announced a beta release of FreeAXP, a
technology demonstrator and free AlphaServer 400 hardware emulator.
FreeAXP is designed to be hosted on a Windows X86 and x64 systems.
Visithttp://www.migrationspecialties.com/FreeAXP and click the
FreeAXP Download (Beta) link on the left side of the page. You will
also find links to the FreeAXP Release Notes, FreeAXP User Guide,
FreeAXP forum, and other FreeAXP documentation on the FreeAXP page.
Support is via the FreeAXP forum on the openvmshobbyist web site.
There will be a commercial Alphaerver emulator product from Migration
Specialties later this year.

URL should be http://www.migrationspecialties.com/FreeAXP.html

[Michael Kraemer]

Post by Jim
URL should be http://www.migrationspecialties.com/FreeAXP.html

Why do they call it "Free"AXP when it is based
on a non-free OS?
Forcing people to use Windoze is a strange
notion of freedom.

[Arne Vajhøj]

Post by Michael Kraemer

Post by Jim
URL should be http://www.migrationspecialties.com/FreeAXP.html

Why do they call it "Free"AXP when it is based
on a non-free OS?

Most likely because you do not pay for the product itself.

:-)

Arne

[Michael Kraemer]

Post by Arne Vajhøj

Post by Michael Kraemer

Post by Jim
URL should be http://www.migrationspecialties.com/FreeAXP.html

Why do they call it "Free"AXP when it is based
on a non-free OS?

Most likely because you do not pay for the product itself.

hmmm,

used alpha from eBay + free hobbyist license VMS or Tru64 = $100,
vs
Wintel hardware + Wintel software + all the hassle which steels
your personal time + free hobbyist license VMS or Tru64 >> $100,
no?

[Arne Vajhøj]

Post by Michael Kraemer

Post by Arne Vajhøj

Post by Michael Kraemer

Post by Jim
URL should be http://www.migrationspecialties.com/FreeAXP.html

Why do they call it "Free"AXP when it is based
on a non-free OS?

Most likely because you do not pay for the product itself.

hmmm,
used alpha from eBay + free hobbyist license VMS or Tru64 = $100,
vs
Wintel hardware + Wintel software + all the hassle which steels
your personal time + free hobbyist license VMS or Tru64 >> $100,
no?

"the product itself"

Arne

[Arne Vajhøj]

Post by Arne Vajhøj

Post by Michael Kraemer

Post by Arne Vajhøj

Post by Michael Kraemer

Post by Jim
URL should be http://www.migrationspecialties.com/FreeAXP.html

Why do they call it "Free"AXP when it is based
on a non-free OS?

Most likely because you do not pay for the product itself.

hmmm,
used alpha from eBay + free hobbyist license VMS or Tru64 = $100,
vs
Wintel hardware + Wintel software + all the hassle which steels
your personal time + free hobbyist license VMS or Tru64 >> $100,
no?

"the product itself"

Oh - and around 1 billion people will already have a Windows PC.

Arne

[Ramon Jimenez]

Post by IanMiller
Migration Specialties has announced a beta release of FreeAXP, a
technology demonstrator and free AlphaServer 400 hardware emulator.
FreeAXP is designed to be hosted on a Windows X86 and x64 systems.
Visithttp://www.migrationspecialties.com/FreeAXP and click the
FreeAXP Download (Beta) link on the left side of the page. You will
also find links to the FreeAXP Release Notes, FreeAXP User Guide,
FreeAXP forum, and other FreeAXP documentation on the FreeAXP page.
Support is via the FreeAXP forum on the openvmshobbyist web site.
There will be a commercial Alphaerver emulator product from Migration
Specialties later this year.

URL should behttp://www.migrationspecialties.com/FreeAXP.html

I knew Personal Alpha http://www.emulatorsinternational.com/en/personalalpha.htm.
At a first sight FreeAxp seems to be more configurable.

[V***@SendSpamHere.ORG]

Post by IanMiller
Migration Specialties has announced a beta release of FreeAXP, a
technology demonstrator and free AlphaServer 400 hardware emulator.
FreeAXP is designed to be hosted on a Windows X86 and x64 systems.
Visithttp://www.migrationspecialties.com/FreeAXP=A0and click the
FreeAXP Download (Beta) link on the left side of the page. You will
also find links to the FreeAXP Release Notes, FreeAXP User Guide,
FreeAXP forum, and other FreeAXP documentation on the FreeAXP page.
Support is via the FreeAXP forum on the openvmshobbyist web site.
There will be a commercial Alphaerver emulator product from Migration
Specialties later this year.

URL should behttp://www.migrationspecialties.com/FreeAXP.html

I knew Personal Alpha http://www.emulatorsinternational.com/en/personalalph=
a.htm.
At a first sight FreeAxp seems to be more configurable.

...but I can't configure it under Linux.

[Bob Koehler]

Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
...but I can't configure it under Linux.

Isn't there a W32 emulation layer available for Linux? Or is it too
little, too old?

I would hardly survive with the Windows systems I'm forced to use
without cygwin emulating UNIX and all those gnu utilties running on it.

[V***@SendSpamHere.ORG]

Post by Bob Koehler

Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
...but I can't configure it under Linux.

Isn't there a W32 emulation layer available for Linux? Or is it too
little, too old?
I would hardly survive with the Windows systems I'm forced to use
without cygwin emulating UNIX and all those gnu utilties running on it.

WINE and, for the most part, it sucks... like most everything WEENDOZE.

[IanMiller]

Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG

Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
...but I can't configure it under Linux.

  Isn't there a W32 emulation layer available for Linux?  Or is it too
  little, too old?
  I would hardly survive with the Windows systems I'm forced to use
  without cygwin emulating UNIX and all those gnu utilties running on it.

WINE and, for the most part, it sucks... like most everything WEENDOZE.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
 http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine

If you want an alpha emulator that runs on linux try http://www.es40.org
- its a bit neglected at present so do join in.

[Wilm Boerhout]

Post by IanMiller

Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG

Post by Bob Koehler

Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
...but I can't configure it under Linux.

Isn't there a W32 emulation layer available for Linux? Or is it too
little, too old?
I would hardly survive with the Windows systems I'm forced to use
without cygwin emulating UNIX and all those gnu utilties running on it.

WINE and, for the most part, it sucks... like most everything WEENDOZE.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine

If you want an alpha emulator that runs on linux try http://www.es40.org
- its a bit neglected at present so do join in.

Yeah. Or try
http://www.stromasys.ch/products/charon-axp/download-charon-axp-nce/

It runs on Linux, and it's free (as in "gratis", not as in "free
speech") as well. NCE stands for non-commercial & educational use.

/Wilm

[j***@yahoo.com]

Yeah. Or tryhttp://www.stromasys.ch/products/charon-axp/download-charon-axp-nce/
It runs on Linux, and it's free (as in "gratis", not as in "free
speech") as well. NCE stands for non-commercial & educational use.
/Wilm

Unfortunately it only runs on 64-bit Linux. All my Linux systems are
32-bit (Intel P3 and P4). :(

John H. Reinhardt

[Wilm Boerhout]

Post by j***@yahoo.com

Yeah. Or tryhttp://www.stromasys.ch/products/charon-axp/download-charon-axp-nce/
It runs on Linux, and it's free (as in "gratis", not as in "free
speech") as well. NCE stands for non-commercial& educational use.
/Wilm

Unfortunately it only runs on 64-bit Linux. All my Linux systems are
32-bit (Intel P3 and P4). :(
John H. Reinhardt

Give me an application, and I'll show you a platform that it does not
run on. It has to end somewhere: Stromasys has a free emulator
(non-commercial) for a 64-bit Alpha that runs on 32 bit Windows, and a
free emulator (ditto) for a 64-bit Alpha that runs on 64-bit Linux. No
other permutations are available.

All commercial Stromasys Alpha emulators run on 64-bit (Windows) only.
The VAXen run on either 32-bit or 64-bit Windows, and on OpenVMS on
Integrity (64 bit!)

/Wilm

[V***@SendSpamHere.ORG]

Post by Wilm Boerhout

Post by IanMiller

Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG

Post by Bob Koehler

Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
...but I can't configure it under Linux.

Isn't there a W32 emulation layer available for Linux? Or is it too
little, too old?
I would hardly survive with the Windows systems I'm forced to use
without cygwin emulating UNIX and all those gnu utilties running on it.

WINE and, for the most part, it sucks... like most everything WEENDOZE.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine

If you want an alpha emulator that runs on linux try http://www.es40.org
- its a bit neglected at present so do join in.

Yeah. Or try
http://www.stromasys.ch/products/charon-axp/download-charon-axp-nce/
It runs on Linux, and it's free (as in "gratis", not as in "free
speech") as well. NCE stands for non-commercial & educational use.

I only get

***@Satellite:~/Desktop/charon-axp_es40_v01_b111_linux_x64_nce$ ./es40_nce
bash: ./es40_nce: cannot execute binary file

when I try it.

[Wilm Boerhout]

Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG

Post by Wilm Boerhout

Post by IanMiller

Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG

Post by Bob Koehler

Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
...but I can't configure it under Linux.

Isn't there a W32 emulation layer available for Linux? Or is it too
little, too old?
I would hardly survive with the Windows systems I'm forced to use
without cygwin emulating UNIX and all those gnu utilties running on it.

WINE and, for the most part, it sucks... like most everything WEENDOZE.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine

If you want an alpha emulator that runs on linux try http://www.es40.org
- its a bit neglected at present so do join in.

Yeah. Or try
http://www.stromasys.ch/products/charon-axp/download-charon-axp-nce/
It runs on Linux, and it's free (as in "gratis", not as in "free
speech") as well. NCE stands for non-commercial& educational use.

I only get
bash: ./es40_nce: cannot execute binary file
when I try it.

and what does the documentation say about that?
does your system qualify?

/Wilm

[Volker Halle]

Brian,

there is a Stromasys User Forum to post questions about Stromasys
emulators:

http://forum.stromasys.com/userforum/

Volker.

[JC]

If you want an alpha emulator that runs on linux tryhttp://www.es40.org
- its a bit neglected at present so do join in.

The lead technical resource for the ES40 emulator project (Camiel
Vanderhoeven) is currently working for Migration Specialties and has
been significantly involved in the FreeAXP development project. He
kindly posted this admission in an emulators forum and offered this as
the principal reason for lack of recent activity on the ES40 emulator
project.

Some significant differences between the Free PersonalAlpha product
from Stromasys and FreeAXP are as follows :-

FreeAXP is currently offered as a beta product but when released it
can be used for commercial purposes with no strings attached.
PersonalAlpha is not a beta product although its use for commercial
purposes is not permitted.
PersonalAlpha is limited to running on 32bit versions of WinXP/Vista/
Win 7 whereas FreeAXP currently runs on both 32 bit and 64 bit Windows
versions.

I have used the PersonalAlpha product for some time now and can
confirm it is an excellent product. Very easy to install and use, I
love it.

In my opinion it is great to see something like FreeAXP entering the
fray. It is unfortunate that a commercial OpenVMS Alpha license is
generally so much more expensive than for I64, otherwise I could
probably deploy this combination to support small business ERP
applications handling up to twenty concurrent users effortlessly.

Many thanks to the people at Stromasys and Migration Specialties for
these excellent technical developments.

[Arne Vajhøj]

Post by Bob Koehler

Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
...but I can't configure it under Linux.

Isn't there a W32 emulation layer available for Linux? Or is it too
little, too old?
I would hardly survive with the Windows systems I'm forced to use
without cygwin emulating UNIX and all those gnu utilties running on it.

Cygwin is pretty nice.

But the command line lovers that use Windows should really
learn PowerShell.

Arne

[V***@SendSpamHere.ORG]

Post by Arne Vajhøj

Post by Bob Koehler

Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
...but I can't configure it under Linux.

Isn't there a W32 emulation layer available for Linux? Or is it too
little, too old?
I would hardly survive with the Windows systems I'm forced to use
without cygwin emulating UNIX and all those gnu utilties running on it.

Cygwin is pretty nice.
But the command line lovers that use Windows should really
learn PowerShell.

...but Cygwin allows me to interface with other computers running an OS.

The only thing I haven't been able to figure out is how to tunnel privied
ports with ssh, Cygwin and WEENDOZE. I can do something like:

ssh -L80:localhost:80

for most platforms using 'sudo' but I need to use a non-privied port and

ssh -L8080:localhost:80

or similar with WEENDOZE.

[Bob Koehler]

Post by Arne Vajhøj
But the command line lovers that use Windows should really
learn PowerShell.

I picked up a copy of PowerShell and played with it. I'll stick with
cygwqin for getting work done.

[V***@SendSpamHere.ORG]

Post by Bob Koehler

Post by Arne Vajhøj
But the command line lovers that use Windows should really
learn PowerShell.

I picked up a copy of PowerShell and played with it. I'll stick with
cygwqin for getting work done.

I never touch anything WEENDOZE!!! When I do need to access one of them
thar Micro$haft game console thangz, I use Cygwin. There's also a wealth
of unixy/linux tools that can be installed with Cygwin. With Cygwin and
MySQL on one of them thar Micro$haft game console thangz, I never have to
leave the comfort of my VMS or Linux systems to interface with the bouncy
cross-eyed paperclip dude dancing on the Teletubbies landscape.

Loading Image...
Loading Image...

[JF Mezei]

Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
I never touch anything WEENDOZE!!!

Ever used an ATM ?
Ever used self-check-out machines at the grocery stores ?

[V***@SendSpamHere.ORG]

Post by JF Mezei

Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
I never touch anything WEENDOZE!!!

Ever used an ATM ?

I don't like the new Weendoze based touch-screen ATMs. I
wish they'd go back to the old systems.

Post by JF Mezei
Ever used self-check-out machines at the grocery stores ?

No. I tried them a few times and it never fails that I'd
need a clerk to intervene because some item wouldn't scan,
was listed improperly or not at all in the database, or it
just plain 'froze up'. Besides, I like making minimum wage
jobs available for HS kids.

[Paul Sture]

Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/b/b3/Mainscreen1.jpg

It's an ill wind...

This one was guaranteed to send a former colleague into apoplexy, and I
learnt some useful Swiss German swear phrases as a result.

[V***@SendSpamHere.ORG]

Post by IanMiller
Migration Specialties has announced a beta release of FreeAXP, a
technology demonstrator and free AlphaServer 400 hardware emulator.
FreeAXP is designed to be hosted on a Windows X86 and x64 systems.
Visit http://www.migrationspecialties.com/FreeAXP and click the
FreeAXP Download (Beta) link on the left side of the page. You will
also find links to the FreeAXP Release Notes, FreeAXP User Guide,
FreeAXP forum, and other FreeAXP documentation on the FreeAXP page.
Support is via the FreeAXP forum on the openvmshobbyist web site.
There will be a commercial Alphaerver emulator product from Migration
Specialties later this year.

Will it run on an operating system or just Micro$hit Game Console V7?

[Rich Jordan]

Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG

Post by IanMiller
Migration Specialties has announced a beta release of FreeAXP, a
technology demonstrator and free AlphaServer 400 hardware emulator.
FreeAXP is designed to be hosted on a Windows X86 and x64 systems.
Visithttp://www.migrationspecialties.com/FreeAXP and click the
FreeAXP Download (Beta) link on the left side of the page. You will
also find links to the FreeAXP Release Notes, FreeAXP User Guide,
FreeAXP forum, and other FreeAXP documentation on the FreeAXP page.
Support is via the FreeAXP forum on the openvmshobbyist web site.
There will be a commercial Alphaerver emulator product from Migration
Specialties later this year.

Will it run on an operating system or just Micro$hit Game Console V7?
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
 http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine

--- FreeAXP is designed to be hosted on a Windows X86 and x64
systems. ---

Sadly it appears not. Pity.

[GreyCloud]

Post by Rich Jordan

Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG

Post by IanMiller
Migration Specialties has announced a beta release of FreeAXP, a
technology demonstrator and free AlphaServer 400 hardware emulator.
FreeAXP is designed to be hosted on a Windows X86 and x64 systems.
Visithttp://www.migrationspecialties.com/FreeAXP and click the
FreeAXP Download (Beta) link on the left side of the page. You will
also find links to the FreeAXP Release Notes, FreeAXP User Guide,
FreeAXP forum, and other FreeAXP documentation on the FreeAXP page.
Support is via the FreeAXP forum on the openvmshobbyist web site.
There will be a commercial Alphaerver emulator product from Migration
Specialties later this year.

Will it run on an operating system or just Micro$hit Game Console V7?
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine

--- FreeAXP is designed to be hosted on a Windows X86 and x64
systems. ---
Sadly it appears not. Pity.

It does show Apple boot camp, and that is the 2x intel x64.
Not sure how one would install this under boot camp tho.

[JF Mezei]

Post by GreyCloud
It does show Apple boot camp, and that is the 2x intel x64.
Not sure how one would install this under boot camp tho.

It still needs a host operating system, and the list given is limited to
Windows.

The Apple Boot Camp (and others) are just mentioned as having been
tested to boot Windows and then Windows starting that FreeAXP application.

They really show do those emulators under Linux or FreeBSD instead of
Windows.

[Jan-Erik Soderholm]

Post by JF Mezei

Post by GreyCloud
It does show Apple boot camp, and that is the 2x intel x64.
Not sure how one would install this under boot camp tho.

It still needs a host operating system, and the list given is limited to
Windows.
The Apple Boot Camp (and others) are just mentioned as having been
tested to boot Windows and then Windows starting that FreeAXP application.
They really show do those emulators under Linux or FreeBSD instead of
Windows.

Well, I guess that they simply want their product to
exist where the market is. Simple as that...

[IanMiller]

Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm

Post by JF Mezei

Post by GreyCloud
It does show Apple boot camp, and that is the 2x intel x64.
Not sure how one would install this under boot camp tho.

It still needs a host operating system, and the list given is limited to
  Windows.
The Apple Boot Camp (and others) are just mentioned as having been
tested to boot Windows and then Windows starting that FreeAXP application.
They really show do those emulators under Linux or FreeBSD instead of
Windows.

Well, I guess that they simply want their product to
exist where the market is. Simple as that...

If you want facts rather than speculation you can always ask. Bruce @
MigrationSpecialties is very approachable.
However I expect the initial platform for the emulator was chosen as
there are lots of systems running windows. They may have plans to run
the emulator on OpenVMS or linux - I don't know. They do intend to
have a commercial product as well.

[Jan-Erik Soderholm]

Post by IanMiller

Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm

Post by JF Mezei

Post by GreyCloud
It does show Apple boot camp, and that is the 2x intel x64.
Not sure how one would install this under boot camp tho.

It still needs a host operating system, and the list given is limited to
Windows.
The Apple Boot Camp (and others) are just mentioned as having been
tested to boot Windows and then Windows starting that FreeAXP application.
They really show do those emulators under Linux or FreeBSD instead of
Windows.

Well, I guess that they simply want their product to
exist where the market is. Simple as that...

MigrationSpecialties is very approachable.
However I expect the initial platform for the emulator was chosen as
there are lots of systems running windows.

That was what I said, not ?

[IanMiller]

Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm

Post by IanMiller

Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm

Post by JF Mezei

Post by GreyCloud
It does show Apple boot camp, and that is the 2x intel x64.
Not sure how one would install this under boot camp tho.

It still needs a host operating system, and the list given is limited to
   Windows.
The Apple Boot Camp (and others) are just mentioned as having been
tested to boot Windows and then Windows starting that FreeAXP application.
They really show do those emulators under Linux or FreeBSD instead of
Windows.

Well, I guess that they simply want their product to
exist where the market is. Simple as that...

MigrationSpecialties is very approachable.
However I expect the initial platform for the emulator was chosen as
there are lots of systems running windows.

That was what I said, not ?

Yes - I was attempting to agree :-)

[Michael Kraemer]

Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm

Post by IanMiller

Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Well, I guess that they simply want their product to
exist where the market is. Simple as that...

MigrationSpecialties is very approachable.
However I expect the initial platform for the emulator was chosen as
there are lots of systems running windows.

That was what I said, not ?

in absolute numbers maybe,
but what about the cross section of those who would run
Windoze+axp
vs those who would prefer to stay away from Billyware and would rather run
anything_but_M$+axp?

I mean there must have been a reason people have preferred DECs products
over M$'s in the past. If these reasons are no longer valid, why care about AXP
at all? If they still are, why care about M$?

[Jan-Erik Soderholm]

Post by Michael Kraemer

Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm

Post by IanMiller

Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Well, I guess that they simply want their product to
exist where the market is. Simple as that...

MigrationSpecialties is very approachable.
However I expect the initial platform for the emulator was chosen as
there are lots of systems running windows.

That was what I said, not ?

in absolute numbers maybe,
but what about the cross section of those who would run
Windoze+axp
vs those who would prefer to stay away from Billyware and would rather run
anything_but_M$+axp?
I mean there must have been a reason people have preferred DECs products
over M$'s in the past.

Hm, in the PDP-11 timeframe ? Yes, I see a reason... :-)

Post by Michael Kraemer
If these reasons are no longer valid, why care about AXP
at all? If they still are, why care about M$?

Life isn't that simple.

[Bill Gunshannon]

Post by Michael Kraemer

Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm

Post by IanMiller

Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Well, I guess that they simply want their product to
exist where the market is. Simple as that...

MigrationSpecialties is very approachable.
However I expect the initial platform for the emulator was chosen as
there are lots of systems running windows.

That was what I said, not ?

in absolute numbers maybe,
but what about the cross section of those who would run
Windoze+axp
vs those who would prefer to stay away from Billyware and would rather run
anything_but_M$+axp?
I mean there must have been a reason people have preferred DECs products
over M$'s in the past. If these reasons are no longer valid, why care about AXP

Because you have an application that runs on Alpha VMS and for whatever
reason can't be moved to a more reasonable OS.

Post by Michael Kraemer
at all? If they still are, why care about M$?

Because that's what the world runs on today, regardless of what people
here want to think.

You know, after reading a bunch of posts this morning it occured to
me that if people come off the same way in a sales or employment
interview as they do here it is no wonder so many are finding IT to
be a dead profession. Considering the pool of talent here, that is
really sad. People here always point at milestones like DEC missing
the PC revolution. How do you think the comments about MS and the
PC Architecture in a public forum like this look to the rest of the
IT world?

bill

[Arne Vajhøj]

Post by Michael Kraemer

Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm

Post by IanMiller

Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Well, I guess that they simply want their product to
exist where the market is. Simple as that...

MigrationSpecialties is very approachable.
However I expect the initial platform for the emulator was chosen as
there are lots of systems running windows.

That was what I said, not ?

in absolute numbers maybe,
but what about the cross section of those who would run
Windoze+axp
vs those who would prefer to stay away from Billyware and would rather run
anything_but_M$+axp?
I mean there must have been a reason people have preferred DECs products
over M$'s in the past. If these reasons are no longer valid, why care about AXP
at all? If they still are, why care about M$?

The fact that VMS Alpha was chosen over NT 3.1 or 4.0 back in the
90's is not a very good indicator that 2008 is not used today.

Arne

[Bob Koehler]

Post by JF Mezei
They really show do those emulators under Linux or FreeBSD instead of
Windows.

I'd really like just one that boots on the naked hardware. A really
small OS like Mach would be a good step in that direction.

[Bill Gunshannon]

Post by Bob Koehler

Post by JF Mezei
They really show do those emulators under Linux or FreeBSD instead of
Windows.

I'd really like just one that boots on the naked hardware. A really
small OS like Mach would be a good step in that direction.

SIMH is available in source. Have at it!!!

bill

[Arne Vajhøj]

Post by Bob Koehler

Post by JF Mezei
They really show do those emulators under Linux or FreeBSD instead of
Windows.

I'd really like just one that boots on the naked hardware. A really
small OS like Mach would be a good step in that direction.

A HW emulator has to run something.

But Linux distros can be tailored down a lot.

Arne

[Stanley F. Quayle]

Post by Arne Vajhøj
A HW emulator has to run something.

If you mean that there has to be an underlying OS, you should check
out "bare-metal" for VMware:

http://www.vmware.com/products/esx/

Could an emulator be made to run in that environment? I don't see why
not...

[Richard Brodie]

Post by Arne Vajhøj
A HW emulator has to run something.
If you mean that there has to be an underlying OS, you should check

That's largely marketing fluff though. It's Linux + a proprietary hypervisor.

[Art Wiens]

Richard Brodie wrote on Mon, 29 March 2010 09:48

Post by Richard Brodie
That's largely marketing fluff though. It's Linux + a proprietary hypervisor.

There's two products, ESX and ESXi :

What is the difference between VMware ESX and VMware ESXi?

VMware ESX and VMware ESXi are both bare-metal hypervisors that install directly on the server hardware. Both provide industry-leading performance and scalability; the difference resides in the architecture and the operational management of VMware ESXi.

Although neither hypervisor relies on an OS for resource management, VMware ESX relies on a Linux operating system, called the service console, to perform two management functions: executing scripts and installing third party agents for hardware monitoring, backup or systems management.

The service console has been removed from ESXi, drastically reducing the hypervisor footprint and completing the ongoing trend of migrating management functionality from the local command line interface to remote management tools. The smaller code base of ESXi represents a smaller "attack surface" and less code to patch, improving reliability and security. The functionally of the service console is replaced by remote command line interfaces and adherence to system management standards.

Cheers,
Art

[John Wallace]

Post by Art Wiens
Richard Brodie wrote on Mon, 29 March 2010 09:48

Post by Richard Brodie
That's largely marketing fluff though. It's Linux + a proprietary hypervisor.

What is the difference between VMware ESX and VMware ESXi?
VMware ESX and VMware ESXi are both bare-metal hypervisors that install directly on the server hardware. Both provide industry-leading performance and scalability; the difference resides in the architecture and the operational management of VMware ESXi.
Although neither hypervisor relies on an OS for resource management, VMware ESX relies on a Linux operating system, called the service console, to perform two management functions: executing scripts and installing third party agents for hardware monitoring, backup or systems management.
The service console has been removed from ESXi, drastically reducing the hypervisor footprint and completing the ongoing trend of migrating management functionality from the local command line interface to remote management tools. The smaller code base of ESXi represents a smaller "attack surface" and less code to patch, improving reliability and security. The functionally of the service console is replaced by remote command line interfaces and adherence to system management standards.
Cheers,
Art
--
"Cheer up ... things could get worse"
So he did ... and they did!

The idea that any hypervisor is a "bare metal" hypervisor is, as has
already been noted, at best "marketing fluff" (though I can think of
other descriptions).

As an example, how about the little VMware hiccup in summer 2008 when
a "routine update" disabled ESX and ESXi because of a date-handling
bug. "Bare metal" CPUs don't have issues like that. "Bare metal" CPUs
don't have folders full of config files that can change a setup from
working to non-working or vice versa.

There's still a whole lot more to ESXi than there was to the SRM
console on an Alpha. Maybe if the SRM console had been called a
nanovisor...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08/12/vmware_12_august_esx_cockup/

[Art Wiens]

Within ESXi product, there's an "installable" version and an "embedded" version. The latter of which hardware manufacturers seem to be baking into their product. Yes there might be some sort of internal "file system", but it's in ROM/RAM somewhere.

Cheers,
Art

[John Wallace]

Within ESXi product, there's an "installable" version and an "embedded" version. The latter of which hardware manufacturers seem to be baking into their product.  Yes there might be some sort of internal "file system", but it's in ROM/RAM somewhere.
Cheers,
Art
--
"Cheer up ... things could get worse"
So he did ... and they did!

There's not just a filesystem, there's an OS emulation layer (a
minimal kernel), so that ESXi sees a Linux-like environment. There's
just enough Linuxness to enable ESXi to run. Obviously its big brother
has rather more Linux underneath it. The idea that this is anything
close to "bare metal" in the usual x86 sense is completely laughable.

When you've got USB slots on the motherboard and 4GB USB sticks or
whatever that are more than capable of holding a complete bootable
server-with-graphics Linux (heck, under 100MB will probably do
something useful, as with Puppy or Damn Small Linux), "baking it in"
is ending up with a rather more complex computer than was on many
desktops a few years ago.

ESX is not "bare metal x86" in anything other than a meaningless
marketing sense. ESXi is "bare metal" in that it offers none of the
"value add" (ie expensive) features found in its big brother product.

Those who moan(ed) about VMS prices should see the prices for VMware.

[Art Wiens]

I sense this is going to turn into "what is an o/s really" debacle so I'll just cut to the chase and say that I use VMS and Windows, I hate all things *UX, I'm right-handed, I frequently run down the hall with ambidextrous scissors yelling about universal health care, wondering why the roads are so bad, complaining about the amount of tax I have to pay, hoping I haven't missed the point.

About covers it?

Cheers,
Art

[JF Mezei]

Post by John Wallace
The idea that any hypervisor is a "bare metal" hypervisor is, as has
already been noted, at best "marketing fluff" (though I can think of
other descriptions).

I am sure folks who wrote emulators have considered this. In a sense,
you need SRM (in alpha terms) which gives the booting OS a list of all
devices on the sytstem, and you would need the actual translator of
binary instructions.

In the current environment, emulators run your OS as an application,
often with disks as container files in the hosting operating system. So
those emulators need to be concerned about converting calls into calls
that the hosting OS knows about.

But in a minimalist one, it wouldn't need to do that. It would just need
to present the available devices to the hosted OS and let the hosted OS
deal with them.

But what happen when your fancy 64 bit 8086 computer has device types
that VMS doesn't have drivers for ? For instance, VAX-VMS wouldn't know
what to do with SATA drives on modern systems.


This is where having a full OS as the hosting entity gives you the
ability to separate the hosted OS from all the variations in devices in
the hardware.

Doesn't change the fact that Linux is a far better hosting platform than
Windows because you can have it barebones without anty excessive crap on
Windows.

[Stanley F. Quayle]

I am sure folks who wrote emulators have considered this.  In a sense,
you need SRM (in alpha terms) which gives the booting OS a list of all
devices on the sytstem, and you would need the actual translator of
binary instructions.

The CHARON emulators have a SRM console. Hard to be a complete
hardware emulation without one.

But what happen when your fancy 64 bit 8086 computer  has device types
that VMS doesn't have drivers for ?  For instance, VAX-VMS wouldn't know
what to do with SATA drives on modern systems.

Which is why there's a configuration file to map those drives into the
emulated VAX or Alpha. And CHARON products support direct access to
hardware, so that SATA drive (or a 4 Gb/s SAN LUN, or a USB drive
[yuck!]) can be in VMS file format, without the host getting in the
way.

Container files are convenient -- for max performance, direct device
access is the fastest. But, especially in the VAX part of the market,
disk access is greatly improved. A decade or two of disk improvements
can really, really help.

This is where having a full OS as the hosting entity gives you the
ability to separate the hosted OS from all the variations in devices in
the hardware.

Exactly.

Doesn't change the fact that Linux is a far better hosting platform than
Windows because you can have it barebones without anty excessive crap on
Windows.

I do agree, however, that Linux would make a great host. As I've said
before, 25% - 50% buy CHARON products BECAUSE IT'S WINDOWS.
Management loves Windows, crap or not. There's the old saying about
the devil you know instead of the devil you don't know.

And, yes, I have prospects (not customers) that won't buy until it's
running on something, anything, that isn't Windows. Fortunately, most
are pretty patient. Hey, they'd didn't migrate to Alpha 15 years ago,
so no hurry...

[Shameless Plug Alert (tm) -- I'm a CHARON reseller. And I do VMS
consulting, whether you run an emulator or not. Both look the same at
this end of a telnet session, which is the point.]

[JF Mezei]

Post by Stanley F. Quayle
Which is why there's a configuration file to map those drives into the
emulated VAX or Alpha. And CHARON products support direct access to
hardware, so that SATA drive (or a 4 Gb/s SAN LUN, or a USB drive
[yuck!]) can be in VMS file format, without the host getting in the
way.

But your application (the emulator) would still present VMS with a fake
device it can understand, and still be using Windows drivers to
read/write to that device, right ?


I take it that from a Windows point of view, you do the equivalent of a
MOUNT/FOREIGN where Windows doesn't try to interpret the disk's format ?

Post by Stanley F. Quayle
I do agree, however, that Linux would make a great host. As I've said
before, 25% - 50% buy CHARON products BECAUSE IT'S WINDOWS.
Management loves Windows, crap or not.

If the product were packaged as a turnkey solution, you wouldn't need to
discuss that your package is really just an application that runs on
Linux. Just like many router manufacturers don't discuss that their
router/modem run on Linux. You just see their application.

Do those pointy haired managers require that routers run on top of
Windows ? If not, then you should be able to pitch an "embedded
solution" where your emulator runs on a hidden instance of Linux.

Post by Stanley F. Quayle
And, yes, I have prospects (not customers) that won't buy until it's
running on something, anything, that isn't Windows. Fortunately, most
are pretty patient.

We're going to have to unleash our Mr VAXman on you... your definition
of "patient" may have to be reviewed :-)

[Stanley F. Quayle]

Post by JF Mezei
But your application (the emulator) would still present VMS with a fake
device it can understand, and still be using Windows drivers to
read/write to that device, right ?

VMS sees the devices it understands, of course.

Post by JF Mezei
I take it that from a Windows point of view, you do the equivalent of a
MOUNT/FOREIGN where Windows doesn't try to interpret the disk's format ?

CHARON can either use a Windows driver or access the SCSI bus
directly. Some devices work better with the Windows driver, some with
direct SCSI. Of course, that old SCSI TK50 drive will have to be
direct SCSI, because there wasn't a Windows driver written for it,
since Windows didn't exist then.

If Windows detects a Windows-readable file format (CD/DVD's), it
allocates the disk exclusively to Windows. You have to start the
emulator first before inserting a disk. The only way to recover is to
reboot (after stopping VMS and the emulator, of course).

Post by JF Mezei
If the product were packaged as a turnkey solution, you wouldn't need to
discuss that your package is really just an application that runs on
Linux.  Just like many router manufacturers don't discuss that their
router/modem run on Linux. You just see their application.

A router is more like a "device" than a "computer".

NuVAX (see http://www.stanq.com/charon-vax.html) comes as a ProLiant
server bundled with emulation software. It's actually running QNX,
which is a real-time operating system. It can be sold as a device,
since there's no user access to the QNX layer.

Post by JF Mezei
Do those pointy haired managers require that routers run on top of
Windows ? If not, then you should be able to pitch an "embedded
solution" where your emulator runs on a hidden instance of Linux.

If CHARON products ran on Linux, I'd be able to sell that to many
customers, but not all.

The management drive to Windows is a WAY TO GET RID OF VMS. By
hosting CHARON on Windows, VMS people in those companies can say
they've migrated to Windows with a straight face. And keep their
jobs. And reduce the number of resumes that show up in my email.

Post by JF Mezei
We're going to have to unleash our Mr VAXman on you... your definition
of "patient" may have to be reviewed :-)

I have nothing to fear from Brian. I did say "most".

[Richard B. Gilbert]

Post by Stanley F. Quayle

Post by JF Mezei
But your application (the emulator) would still present VMS with a fake
device it can understand, and still be using Windows drivers to
read/write to that device, right ?

VMS sees the devices it understands, of course.

Post by JF Mezei
I take it that from a Windows point of view, you do the equivalent of a
MOUNT/FOREIGN where Windows doesn't try to interpret the disk's format ?

CHARON can either use a Windows driver or access the SCSI bus
directly. Some devices work better with the Windows driver, some with
direct SCSI. Of course, that old SCSI TK50 drive will have to be
direct SCSI, because there wasn't a Windows driver written for it,
since Windows didn't exist then.
If Windows detects a Windows-readable file format (CD/DVD's), it
allocates the disk exclusively to Windows. You have to start the
emulator first before inserting a disk. The only way to recover is to
reboot (after stopping VMS and the emulator, of course).

Post by JF Mezei
If the product were packaged as a turnkey solution, you wouldn't need to
discuss that your package is really just an application that runs on
Linux. Just like many router manufacturers don't discuss that their
router/modem run on Linux. You just see their application.

A router is more like a "device" than a "computer".

I think I'd call it a special purpose computer.

Post by Stanley F. Quayle
NuVAX (see http://www.stanq.com/charon-vax.html) comes as a ProLiant
server bundled with emulation software. It's actually running QNX,
which is a real-time operating system. It can be sold as a device,
since there's no user access to the QNX layer.

Post by JF Mezei
Do those pointy haired managers require that routers run on top of
Windows ? If not, then you should be able to pitch an "embedded
solution" where your emulator runs on a hidden instance of Linux.

If CHARON products ran on Linux, I'd be able to sell that to many
customers, but not all.
The management drive to Windows is a WAY TO GET RID OF VMS. By
hosting CHARON on Windows, VMS people in those companies can say
they've migrated to Windows with a straight face. And keep their
jobs. And reduce the number of resumes that show up in my email.

Post by JF Mezei
We're going to have to unleash our Mr VAXman on you... your definition
of "patient" may have to be reviewed :-)

I have nothing to fear from Brian. I did say "most".

[Paul Sture]

In article

Post by Stanley F. Quayle
I do agree, however, that Linux would make a great host. As I've said
before, 25% - 50% buy CHARON products BECAUSE IT'S WINDOWS.
Management loves Windows, crap or not. There's the old saying about
the devil you know instead of the devil you don't know.

"Management really does love Windows" is something I'm coming across at
the moment. I sometimes wonder if Microsoft actually needs a marketing
department, as they have clearly delegated much to their customers.

[Michael Kraemer]

Post by Paul Sture
In article

Post by Stanley F. Quayle
I do agree, however, that Linux would make a great host. As I've said
before, 25% - 50% buy CHARON products BECAUSE IT'S WINDOWS.
Management loves Windows, crap or not. There's the old saying about
the devil you know instead of the devil you don't know.

"Management really does love Windows" is something I'm coming across at
the moment. I sometimes wonder if Microsoft actually needs a marketing
department, as they have clearly delegated much to their customers.

Ruling the desktop eliminates the need for marketing.
And those who rule the desktop will rule the server room
too, rather sooner than later.
So much for the "server OS only" mantra.

[JF Mezei]

Post by Stanley F. Quayle
I do agree, however, that Linux would make a great host. As I've said
before, 25% - 50% buy CHARON products BECAUSE IT'S WINDOWS.

The real question is what percentage of those 25/50% would still buy
Charon if it was packaged as a bootable product. (akaL: Linux under the
hood, but the customers don't need to know that).

[V***@SendSpamHere.ORG]

Post by JF Mezei

Post by Stanley F. Quayle
I do agree, however, that Linux would make a great host. As I've said
before, 25% - 50% buy CHARON products BECAUSE IT'S WINDOWS.

The real question is what percentage of those 25/50% would still buy
Charon if it was packaged as a bootable product. (akaL: Linux under the
hood, but the customers don't need to know that).

I'd bet a great many would. A simpler turnkey solution.

[John Wallace]

Post by JF Mezei

I do agree, however, that Linux would make a great host.  As I've said
before, 25% - 50% buy CHARON products BECAUSE IT'S WINDOWS.

The real question is what percentage of those 25/50% would still buy
Charon if it was packaged as a bootable product. (akaL: Linux under the
hood, but the customers don't need to know that).

But there already is a "Charon packaged as a bootable product". It
definitely isn't Windows under the hood, it isn't even Linux under the
hood, it's QNX, which is a commercial RT/embedded setup (whose source
is available).

Until Stan mentioned it a day or three ago, I'd never heard of Charon
on QNX, but then I'm no Charon expert or marketeer, although I've
known of Charon and QNX separately for many years.

How many of the folks round here had heard of Charon on QNX? How many
had even heard of QNX (which in some ways could be considered the
logical successor to VAXeln)?

What people don't know about, they can't buy, and probably won't look
for more information on.

I'm unclear as to why a QNX-based Charon would be expected to be more
appealing than a Linux-based Charon, *except* in the case which Stan
identifies ie where there is a need for connectivity to (or emulation
of) Qbus/Unibus/etc IO. In a setup where the basic need is just to
emulate the software (and in my ignorance I'm tempted to think there
are just as many of those as there are that need hardware), I don't
immediately see what QNX brings to the table that couldn't be done
just as well by either a Linux or a seriously tiny (free) OS such as
eCos or its close relative redBoot.

[JF Mezei]

In fairness, I could see instances where Charon in Windows is desirable.
(I can hear Mr. VAXman cringe from here !)


Consider a financial institution who moves an application from VMS to
Solaris, but they are required to retain access to logfiles/rercords for
5 years.

It then makes sense to install Charon as an application on some PC where
they can Boot that ols VMS environment and run that old application to
access such logs/transactions WHEN NEEDED. (aka: this doesn't run all
the time, only when/if needed). This way, they don't need to dedicate a
machine to it, the manager's PC can be outfitted with the emulator and
run it from time to time when needed.

[Wilm Boerhout]

Post by JF Mezei
In fairness, I could see instances where Charon in Windows is desirable.
(I can hear Mr. VAXman cringe from here !)
Consider a financial institution who moves an application from VMS to
Solaris, but they are required to retain access to logfiles/rercords for
5 years.
It then makes sense to install Charon as an application on some PC where
they can Boot that ols VMS environment and run that old application to
access such logs/transactions WHEN NEEDED. (aka: this doesn't run all
the time, only when/if needed). This way, they don't need to dedicate a
machine to it, the manager's PC can be outfitted with the emulator and
run it from time to time when needed.

Yes. I sell CHARON in these environments often. We call it "archiving".
The fiscal authorities over here require companies to retain records for
10 years. If records are stored in an automated system, they have to be
retained in the original application environment (as opposed to, for
instance, printed out and put in boxes). Here is -for VMS apps- where
CHARON-VAX or CHARON-AXP comes in handy, in the way that JF described.

/Wilm

[also a CHARON reseller]

[V***@SendSpamHere.ORG]

Post by JF Mezei
In fairness, I could see instances where Charon in Windows is desirable.
(I can hear Mr. VAXman cringe from here !)

Loud and clear for you JF? :)

Post by JF Mezei
Consider a financial institution who moves an application from VMS to
Solaris, but they are required to retain access to logfiles/rercords for
5 years.
It then makes sense to install Charon as an application on some PC where
they can Boot that ols VMS environment and run that old application to
access such logs/transactions WHEN NEEDED. (aka: this doesn't run all
the time, only when/if needed). This way, they don't need to dedicate a
machine to it, the manager's PC can be outfitted with the emulator and
run it from time to time when needed.

WEENDOZE never makes sense; especially, when there are so many better
alternatives.

OK. Stravinski just graced the "moon" with the "Firebird", so I must
lavish in its beautiful melody.

[JC]

Post by Paul Sture
In article

I do agree, however, that Linux would make a great host.  As I've said
before, 25% - 50% buy CHARON products BECAUSE IT'S WINDOWS.
Management loves Windows, crap or not.  There's the old saying about
the devil you know instead of the devil you don't know.

"Management really does love Windows" is something I'm coming across at
the moment. I sometimes wonder if Microsoft actually needs a marketing
department, as they have clearly delegated much to their customers.
--
Paul Sture

Management never knew how to use any of the computer systems in
business.
They had no motivation to learn how to use these machines and had
plenty of
underlings to do it for them.

That all changed when management discovered the opportunity to surf
porn
using the web. This provided sufficient motivation for them to have
their own
Windows desktop or laptop system to do some point and click
operations.
Pretty soon afterwards they also learned to send email messages to and
fro
within their circle of business contacts and personal friends. They
even
learned the rudiments of e-commerce after paying for porn online using
their
credit card. As they lost their virginity to Windoze, they predictably
became
hostile to the thought of using anything else.

Later on, these activities often took on a bittersweet taste following
encounters
with "Smitfraud" variants and rootkits of varying kinds. Nevertheless
this is how
the die was cast.

[V***@SendSpamHere.ORG]

Post by JC
Management never knew how to use any of the computer systems in
business.
They had no motivation to learn how to use these machines and had
plenty of
underlings to do it for them.
That all changed when management discovered the opportunity to surf
porn
using the web. This provided sufficient motivation for them to have
their own
Windows desktop or laptop system to do some point and click
operations.
Pretty soon afterwards they also learned to send email messages to and
fro
within their circle of business contacts and personal friends. They
even
learned the rudiments of e-commerce after paying for porn online using
their
credit card. As they lost their virginity to Windoze, they predictably
became
hostile to the thought of using anything else.
Later on, these activities often took on a bittersweet taste following
encounters
with "Smitfraud" variants and rootkits of varying kinds. Nevertheless
this is how
the die was cast.

That seems a pretty fair assessment to me.

[Arne Vajhøj]

Post by Stanley F. Quayle

Post by Arne Vajhøj
A HW emulator has to run something.

If you mean that there has to be an underlying OS, you should check
http://www.vmware.com/products/esx/
Could an emulator be made to run in that environment? I don't see why
not...

Neither do I.

But there are still something running.

I believe that VMWare uses their own kernel
with a Linux for the console.

Arne

[Bob Koehler]

Post by Arne Vajhøj
A HW emulator has to run something.

It need basic OS features to access the hardware it's running on.
But that could be built in, instead of sitting on top of something
as huge and poor as Windows.

[Bob Koehler]

Post by GreyCloud
It does show Apple boot camp, and that is the 2x intel x64.
Not sure how one would install this under boot camp tho.

IIRC, boot camp just allows you to switch OS, it does not allow you
to run an application as an OS, and the emulator no doubt is a
Windows application.

[H Vlems]

Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG

Post by IanMiller
Migration Specialties has announced a beta release of FreeAXP, a
technology demonstrator and free AlphaServer 400 hardware emulator.
FreeAXP is designed to be hosted on a Windows X86 and x64 systems.
Visithttp://www.migrationspecialties.com/FreeAXP and click the
FreeAXP Download (Beta) link on the left side of the page. You will
also find links to the FreeAXP Release Notes, FreeAXP User Guide,
FreeAXP forum, and other FreeAXP documentation on the FreeAXP page.
Support is via the FreeAXP forum on the openvmshobbyist web site.
There will be a commercial Alphaerver emulator product from Migration
Specialties later this year.

Will it run on an operating system or just Micro$hit Game Console V7?
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
 http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine

It's not a game console, it boots AXP/VMS V8.2 from cd, albeit
slowly.

[H Vlems]

Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG

Post by IanMiller
Migration Specialties has announced a beta release of FreeAXP, a
technology demonstrator and free AlphaServer 400 hardware emulator.
FreeAXP is designed to be hosted on a Windows X86 and x64 systems.
Visithttp://www.migrationspecialties.com/FreeAXP and click the
FreeAXP Download (Beta) link on the left side of the page. You will
also find links to the FreeAXP Release Notes, FreeAXP User Guide,
FreeAXP forum, and other FreeAXP documentation on the FreeAXP page.
Support is via the FreeAXP forum on the openvmshobbyist web site.
There will be a commercial Alphaerver emulator product from Migration
Specialties later this year.

Will it run on an operating system or just Micro$hit Game Console V7?
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
 http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine

Brian,
I misunderstood the question. The host is a choice of game consoles
unfortunately: Windows 32 or 64-bit O/S: XP, Vista, 2003, 2008, 7

[Arne Vajhøj]

Post by IanMiller
Migration Specialties has announced a beta release of FreeAXP, a
technology demonstrator and free AlphaServer 400 hardware emulator.
FreeAXP is designed to be hosted on a Windows X86 and x64 systems.
Visit http://www.migrationspecialties.com/FreeAXP and click the
FreeAXP Download (Beta) link on the left side of the page. You will
also find links to the FreeAXP Release Notes, FreeAXP User Guide,
FreeAXP forum, and other FreeAXP documentation on the FreeAXP page.
Support is via the FreeAXP forum on the openvmshobbyist web site.
There will be a commercial Alphaerver emulator product from Migration
Specialties later this year.

Given the interest in Alpha emulators, then one can not but
wonder whether it was wise to stop selling real Alpha's !

Arne

[Michael Kraemer]

Post by Arne Vajhøj
Given the interest in Alpha emulators, then one can not but
wonder whether it was wise to stop selling real Alpha's !

Actually it's the other way round:
if people would have bought more real alpha's back then,
the production wouldn't have stopped.

[JF Mezei]

Post by Michael Kraemer
if people would have bought more real alpha's back then,
the production wouldn't have stopped.

That is debatable. Deals were probably signed to seal Alpha's fate a
long time ago.

Water under the bridge now. (and a non-HP Nehalem 64 bit 8086 under my desk)

[Michael Kraemer]

Post by JF Mezei

Post by Michael Kraemer
if people would have bought more real alpha's back then,
the production wouldn't have stopped.

That is debatable.

well, no.
HP's website says 1M alpha chips sold in 14 years.
Makes 70000 per year on average. Not very impressive for a chip
which was expensive to develop and manufacture.
Now if it would have been 700000 per year ...

Post by JF Mezei
Deals were probably signed to seal Alpha's fate a
long time ago.

in 1997, with the intel deal.

Post by JF Mezei
Water under the bridge now. (and a non-HP Nehalem 64 bit 8086 under my desk)

IIRC the 8086 is 16bit only.

[Bill Gunshannon]

Post by Michael Kraemer

Post by JF Mezei

Post by Michael Kraemer
if people would have bought more real alpha's back then,
the production wouldn't have stopped.

That is debatable.

well, no.
HP's website says 1M alpha chips sold in 14 years.
Makes 70000 per year on average. Not very impressive for a chip
which was expensive to develop and manufacture.
Now if it would have been 700000 per year ...

How many Itaniums sold in the past 14 years?

How many Alpha's were DEC/Compaq/HP stuck with in the end?
I seem to recall people continuing to buy all they produced
even after the announcement of EOL.

bill

[Arne Vajhøj]

Post by JF Mezei

Post by Michael Kraemer
if people would have bought more real alpha's back then,
the production wouldn't have stopped.

That is debatable. Deals were probably signed to seal Alpha's fate a
long time ago.
Water under the bridge now. (and a non-HP Nehalem 64 bit 8086 under my desk)

x86-64 is the proper term.

Arne

[Arne Vajhøj]

Post by Michael Kraemer

Post by Arne Vajhøj
Given the interest in Alpha emulators, then one can not but
wonder whether it was wise to stop selling real Alpha's !

if people would have bought more real alpha's back then,
the production wouldn't have stopped.

True.

But there is a huge difference between what is necessary to keep
Alpha chips and systems being developed and what is necessary
to fund shipping existing chips and systems.

Arne

[Bob Koehler]

Post by Arne Vajhøj
Given the interest in Alpha emulators, then one can not but
wonder whether it was wise to stop selling real Alpha's !

I have a great interest in SIMH, but the only thing it emulates that
I am willing to have is a VAX I got for free.

[GreyCloud]

Post by Bob Koehler

Post by Arne Vajhøj
Given the interest in Alpha emulators, then one can not but
wonder whether it was wise to stop selling real Alpha's !

I have a great interest in SIMH, but the only thing it emulates that
I am willing to have is a VAX I got for free.

Same here. Is there a way to use a crossover ethernet cable with a mac
and a VLC to install the vms hobbyist products. I was hoping to use the
macs cd drive. I'm presuming that the vax can do a network install...
of course I may be wrong about that.

[Bob Koehler]

Post by GreyCloud
Same here. Is there a way to use a crossover ethernet cable with a mac
and a VLC to install the vms hobbyist products. I was hoping to use the
macs cd drive. I'm presuming that the vax can do a network install...
of course I may be wrong about that.

Sure, VMS can do network installs. But the protocols supported for
this on a VAX are not likely to be found on a Mac.

[GreyCloud]

Post by Bob Koehler

Post by GreyCloud
Same here. Is there a way to use a crossover ethernet cable with a mac
and a VLC to install the vms hobbyist products. I was hoping to use the
macs cd drive. I'm presuming that the vax can do a network install...
of course I may be wrong about that.

Sure, VMS can do network installs. But the protocols supported for
this on a VAX are not likely to be found on a Mac.

The mac is capable of doing its own network install for its own os, so I
suppose I'd have to look around some docs to find out more.

[Bill Gunshannon]

Post by Arne Vajhøj

Post by IanMiller
Migration Specialties has announced a beta release of FreeAXP, a
technology demonstrator and free AlphaServer 400 hardware emulator.
FreeAXP is designed to be hosted on a Windows X86 and x64 systems.
Visit http://www.migrationspecialties.com/FreeAXP and click the
FreeAXP Download (Beta) link on the left side of the page. You will
also find links to the FreeAXP Release Notes, FreeAXP User Guide,
FreeAXP forum, and other FreeAXP documentation on the FreeAXP page.
Support is via the FreeAXP forum on the openvmshobbyist web site.
There will be a commercial Alphaerver emulator product from Migration
Specialties later this year.

Given the interest in Alpha emulators, then one can not but
wonder whether it was wise to stop selling real Alpha's !

One could apply the exact same logic to the VAX and even the PDP-11.

bill

[Arne Vajhøj]

Post by Bill Gunshannon

Post by Arne Vajhøj

Post by IanMiller
Migration Specialties has announced a beta release of FreeAXP, a
technology demonstrator and free AlphaServer 400 hardware emulator.
FreeAXP is designed to be hosted on a Windows X86 and x64 systems.
Visit http://www.migrationspecialties.com/FreeAXP and click the
FreeAXP Download (Beta) link on the left side of the page. You will
also find links to the FreeAXP Release Notes, FreeAXP User Guide,
FreeAXP forum, and other FreeAXP documentation on the FreeAXP page.
Support is via the FreeAXP forum on the openvmshobbyist web site.
There will be a commercial Alphaerver emulator product from Migration
Specialties later this year.

Given the interest in Alpha emulators, then one can not but
wonder whether it was wise to stop selling real Alpha's !

One could apply the exact same logic to the VAX and even the PDP-11.

Maybe.

But it seems to me that there are more AXP emulators than VAX
emulators.

Either the demand must be bigger or emulator software has become
easier to produce.

I have no idea about the PDP-11 market.

Arne

[Stanley F. Quayle]

Post by Arne Vajhøj
But it seems to me that there are more AXP emulators than VAX
emulators.

Speaking as a CHARON reseller [Shameless Plug Alert (tm)], VAX
emulators outsell Alpha ones by a good bit. But I expect that
situation to change as the remaining Alphas continue to change. There
can't be an infinite supply of replacement parts.

Post by Arne Vajhøj
I have no idea about the PDP-11 market.

I do get inquiries from time to time.

[Bill Gunshannon]

Post by Stanley F. Quayle

Post by Arne Vajhøj
But it seems to me that there are more AXP emulators than VAX
emulators.

Speaking as a CHARON reseller [Shameless Plug Alert (tm)], VAX
emulators outsell Alpha ones by a good bit. But I expect that
situation to change as the remaining Alphas continue to change. There
can't be an infinite supply of replacement parts.

Post by Arne Vajhøj
I have no idea about the PDP-11 market.

I do get inquiries from time to time.

And Charon is not the only commercial PDP-11 Emulator. Add to that
the existence of SIMH (which actually started out as just a PDP-11
emulator) and there seems to be quite a bit of interest in old iron.

bill

[Arne Vajhøj]

Post by Stanley F. Quayle

Post by Arne Vajhøj
But it seems to me that there are more AXP emulators than VAX
emulators.

Speaking as a CHARON reseller [Shameless Plug Alert (tm)], VAX
emulators outsell Alpha ones by a good bit. But I expect that
situation to change as the remaining Alphas continue to change. There
can't be an infinite supply of replacement parts.

Makes sense.

But it sounds as if there os going to be tougher competition for
the Alpha emulation market.

Arne

[John Wallace]

Post by IanMiller
Migration Specialties has announced a beta release of FreeAXP, a
technology demonstrator and free AlphaServer 400 hardware emulator.
FreeAXP is designed to be hosted on a Windows X86 and x64 systems.
Visithttp://www.migrationspecialties.com/FreeAXP and click the
FreeAXP Download (Beta) link on the left side of the page. You will
also find links to the FreeAXP Release Notes, FreeAXP User Guide,
FreeAXP forum, and other FreeAXP documentation on the FreeAXP page.
Support is via the FreeAXP forum on the openvmshobbyist web site.
There will be a commercial Alphaerver emulator product from Migration
Specialties later this year.

Not directed exclusively at Migration Specialties product...

What do the lawyers (the vendors' layers in particular) have to say
about all these emulators that are popping up nowadays? Maybe the
lawyers don't care much about the personal/free/hobbyist ones, but
various things from SimH upwards are now being used for commercial
purposes for emulating boxes that can run VMS.

Some of the emulators appear to have some level of approval from HP,
though whether it's up to HP to approve e.g. a VAX or Alpha emulator
isn't entirely obvious at first glance (who owns the VAX and Alpha
architecture intelluctual property these days? For Alpha at least, I'd
be surprised if it's HP). For the commercial products/services, are
the vendors' lawyers willing to indemnify end users against any SCO-
style or RIAA-style threats that may emerge, or does the question make
no sense?

As the saying goes, where there's a hit, there's a writ.

[JF Mezei]

Post by John Wallace
Some of the emulators appear to have some level of approval from HP,
though whether it's up to HP to approve e.g. a VAX or Alpha emulator
isn't entirely obvious at first glance (who owns the VAX and Alpha
architecture intelluctual property these days?

If I am not mistaken, HP still has the IP, but Intel has full rights to
the Alpha stuff. HP got it from Compaq which got it from DEC.

The minute HP ended sales of Alpha systems, it probably forfeited the
ability to sue emulators as the later would no longer deprive HP of any
Alpha sales. Some of the officially supported emulators are supported
when they run on HP 8086 servers. So HP makes a sale of one of its
machines so it wouldn't really complain.


Intel also knows a thing or two about having to allow competitors build
"stuff" that emulates its instruction sets.

Post by John Wallace
the vendors' lawyers willing to indemnify end users against any SCO-
style or RIAA-style threats that may emerge, or does the question make
no sense?

SCO saw its death coming (its vanilla proprietary Unix killed by free
Linux). So it scrambled to sue anyone with deep pockets to get some
retirement money. It knew that Linux had a great future and that it
would steal/kill its SCO Unix business.

In the case of VMS, it ain't got no future and isn't stealing anybody's
business. No money to be made suing anyone.

[Bob Koehler]

Post by JF Mezei
The minute HP ended sales of Alpha systems, it probably forfeited the
ability to sue emulators as the later would no longer deprive HP of any
Alpha sales.

They could probably go at it from the point of view that there could
have been Itanium sales, instead. But it's most likely a much better
business decision to partner with the emulator vendor than against
them.

[IanMiller]

Post by IanMiller
Migration Specialties has announced a beta release of FreeAXP, a
technology demonstrator and free AlphaServer 400 hardware emulator.
FreeAXP is designed to be hosted on a Windows X86 and x64 systems.
Visithttp://www.migrationspecialties.com/FreeAXP and click the
FreeAXP Download (Beta) link on the left side of the page. You will
also find links to the FreeAXP Release Notes, FreeAXP User Guide,
FreeAXP forum, and other FreeAXP documentation on the FreeAXP page.
Support is via the FreeAXP forum on the openvmshobbyist web site.
There will be a commercial Alphaerver emulator product from Migration
Specialties later this year.

Bruce C has commented on FreeAXP on other platforms
http://www.openvmshobbyist.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=163&thread_id=846
"FreeAXP has been designed to run on Windows, Linux, and OpenVMS.
About 90% of the code set is compatible across all three O/S. However,
FreeAXP is currently only supported under Windows.

FreeAXP is being released first on Windows because this host O/S
offers the best revenue possibilities for our commercial Alpha
emulator, Avanti. We will release FreeAXP on Linux and OpenVMS when
the product revenue stream permits the expense internally or when
someone funds the development and testing required to properly support
each additional host O/S. Preparing release candidates for OpenVMS and
Linux is about a $50K proposition for each host O/S."

[Mark Daniel]

Post by IanMiller
Migration Specialties has announced a beta release of FreeAXP, a
technology demonstrator and free AlphaServer 400 hardware emulator.
FreeAXP is designed to be hosted on a Windows X86 and x64 systems.
Visit http://www.migrationspecialties.com/FreeAXP and click the
FreeAXP Download (Beta) link on the left side of the page. You will
also find links to the FreeAXP Release Notes, FreeAXP User Guide,
FreeAXP forum, and other FreeAXP documentation on the FreeAXP page.
Support is via the FreeAXP forum on the openvmshobbyist web site.
There will be a commercial Alphaerver emulator product from Migration
Specialties later this year.

In common with others posting against this item I too would have been
more interested in a Linux hosted FreeAXP. I run XP in Virtualbox for
the few occasions I need Windows and it seems silly to have that up just
to emulate AXP (Virtualbox's performance is very good but then it's a
virtual machine not an emulation).

Now, I would have posted the following performance results in the
FreeAXP forum

http://www.openvmshobbyist.org/forum/viewforum.php?forum_id=163

but as I lost a lot of interest when seeing the performance results
listed below there seemed little point in registering for a (probable)
single post. Someone here already registered may wish to post the
results for the benefit of the forum.

I used the VUPS.COM procedure


http://www.openvmshobbyist.org/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=163&thread_id=842

on the following systems ...

1) AlphaServer DS20 500 MHz OpenVMS V8.3 EV6 (21264) 500 Mhz

Approximate System VUPs Rating : 252.6

2) Digital Personal WorkStation OpenVMS V8.3 EV56 (21164A) 500 Mhz (my
development system at home)

Approximate System VUPs Rating : 153.6

3) Installed the current FreeAXP emulator on an HP 7900 CMT, Intel Core2
Quad CPU Q9400 @2.66 Ghz 4GB Microsoft Windows XP 2002 Professional
Service Pack 2 (a reasonably recent and quite respectable office
desktop) and installed VMS V8.3 from the distribution CD

FreeAXP reported itself as

AlphaServer 400 4/166 running OpenVMS V8.3 EV4 (21064) 1216 Mhz

Approximate System VUPs Rating : 16.0

Now to me this looks like an order of magnitude less performance than my
humble PWS500. It's unlikely I'd give up the PWS for anything less than
the current performance even considering the potential power savings and
the utility of having virtualised disks.

[IanMiller]

Post by Mark Daniel

Post by IanMiller
Migration Specialties has announced a beta release of FreeAXP, a
technology demonstrator and free AlphaServer 400 hardware emulator.
FreeAXP is designed to be hosted on a Windows X86 and x64 systems.
Visithttp://www.migrationspecialties.com/FreeAXP and click the
FreeAXP Download (Beta) link on the left side of the page. You will
also find links to the FreeAXP Release Notes, FreeAXP User Guide,
FreeAXP forum, and other FreeAXP documentation on the FreeAXP page.
Support is via the FreeAXP forum on the openvmshobbyist web site.
There will be a commercial Alphaerver emulator product from Migration
Specialties later this year.

In common with others posting against this item I too would have been
more interested in a Linux hosted FreeAXP.  I run XP in Virtualbox for
the few occasions I need Windows and it seems silly to have that up just
to emulate AXP (Virtualbox's performance is very good but then it's a
virtual machine not an emulation).
Now, I would have posted the following performance results in the
FreeAXP forum
   http://www.openvmshobbyist.org/forum/viewforum.php?forum_id=163
but as I lost a lot of interest when seeing the performance results
listed below there seemed little point in registering for a (probable)
single post.  Someone here already registered may wish to post the
results for the benefit of the forum.
I used the VUPS.COM procedure
http://www.openvmshobbyist.org/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=163&thre...
on the following systems ...
1) AlphaServer DS20 500 MHz OpenVMS V8.3 EV6 (21264) 500 Mhz
   Approximate System VUPs Rating : 252.6
2) Digital Personal WorkStation OpenVMS V8.3 EV56 (21164A) 500 Mhz (my
development system at home)
   Approximate System VUPs Rating : 153.6
3) Installed the current FreeAXP emulator on an HP 7900 CMT, Intel Core2
Service Pack 2 (a reasonably recent and quite respectable office
desktop) and installed VMS V8.3 from the distribution CD
FreeAXP reported itself as
   AlphaServer 400 4/166 running OpenVMS V8.3 EV4 (21064) 1216 Mhz
Approximate System VUPs Rating : 16.0
Now to me this looks like an order of magnitude less performance than my
humble PWS500.  It's unlikely I'd give up the PWS for anything less than
the current performance even considering the potential power savings and
the utility of having virtualised disks.

The current release notes of FreeAXP says this release is slower than
previous releases. They are concentrating on getting it right then
speeding it up.

[Mark Daniel]

Post by IanMiller

Post by Mark Daniel

Post by IanMiller
Migration Specialties has announced a beta release of FreeAXP, a
technology demonstrator and free AlphaServer 400 hardware emulator.
FreeAXP is designed to be hosted on a Windows X86 and x64 systems.
Visithttp://www.migrationspecialties.com/FreeAXP and click the
FreeAXP Download (Beta) link on the left side of the page. You will
also find links to the FreeAXP Release Notes, FreeAXP User Guide,
FreeAXP forum, and other FreeAXP documentation on the FreeAXP page.
Support is via the FreeAXP forum on the openvmshobbyist web site.
There will be a commercial Alphaerver emulator product from Migration
Specialties later this year.

In common with others posting against this item I too would have been
more interested in a Linux hosted FreeAXP. I run XP in Virtualbox for
the few occasions I need Windows and it seems silly to have that up just
to emulate AXP (Virtualbox's performance is very good but then it's a
virtual machine not an emulation).
Now, I would have posted the following performance results in the
FreeAXP forum
http://www.openvmshobbyist.org/forum/viewforum.php?forum_id=163
but as I lost a lot of interest when seeing the performance results
listed below there seemed little point in registering for a (probable)
single post. Someone here already registered may wish to post the
results for the benefit of the forum.
I used the VUPS.COM procedure
http://www.openvmshobbyist.org/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=163&thre...
on the following systems ...
1) AlphaServer DS20 500 MHz OpenVMS V8.3 EV6 (21264) 500 Mhz
Approximate System VUPs Rating : 252.6
2) Digital Personal WorkStation OpenVMS V8.3 EV56 (21164A) 500 Mhz (my
development system at home)
Approximate System VUPs Rating : 153.6
3) Installed the current FreeAXP emulator on an HP 7900 CMT, Intel Core2
Service Pack 2 (a reasonably recent and quite respectable office
desktop) and installed VMS V8.3 from the distribution CD
FreeAXP reported itself as
AlphaServer 400 4/166 running OpenVMS V8.3 EV4 (21064) 1216 Mhz
Approximate System VUPs Rating : 16.0
Now to me this looks like an order of magnitude less performance than my
humble PWS500. It's unlikely I'd give up the PWS for anything less than
the current performance even considering the potential power savings and
the utility of having virtualised disks.

The current release notes of FreeAXP says this release is slower than
previous releases. They are concentrating on getting it right then
speeding it up.

I read the User Guide and the Release Notes, Ian. I'm just reporting.
Of course 10% would be noticeably slower. On the other hand it's only
cost me thirty minutes (of the company's time) so far.

[Volker Halle]

Mark,

FreeAXP as well as Stromasys's PersonalAlpha are FREE emulators. And
as such cannot be expected to deliver the greatest performance.

To give you an idea, the Stromasys CHARON-AXP emulators can currently
achieve about the same CPU performance as as 500-600 MHz real Alpha.
So your 500 MHz Alpha DS20 and DPWS could be eumlated with comparable
CPU performance today - but not for free.

Volker.

[Mark Daniel]

Post by Volker Halle
Mark,
FreeAXP as well as Stromasys's PersonalAlpha are FREE emulators. And
as such cannot be expected to deliver the greatest performance.
To give you an idea, the Stromasys CHARON-AXP emulators can currently
achieve about the same CPU performance as as 500-600 MHz real Alpha.
So your 500 MHz Alpha DS20 and DPWS could be eumlated with comparable
CPU performance today - but not for free.
Volker.

Most certainly Volker. And I do understand the vendor constraints of a
tiny market (cf. Oracle's Virtualbox). My (2x) PWS500 cost AU$100 (ea)
some years ago now (along with some AU$150 annually in power) and allow
me to do real (open source) VMS work. The current FreeAXP is a
demonstrator (toy) which would not. When I can do real work on an
emulated Alpha(/Itanium) for $150 per annum (and without having to spend
additional real money specifically upgrading my 2 core desktop at home)
then that will meet *my* constraints. In the meantime there is the warm
and noisy comfort of real hardware for an old hack like myself.

[JF Mezei]

Post by Volker Halle
FreeAXP as well as Stromasys's PersonalAlpha are FREE emulators. And
as such cannot be expected to deliver the greatest performance.

SimH doesn't have an "idle loop" handling system, so its solution is to
limit the amount of CPU it uses. And that limits the VUPS rating even if
you are running it on a superfast 64 bit 8086.

Does the FreeAXP have an idle loop detection and handler, or does it
just eat up as much CPU as it is given even when th alpha/vms is idle ?

[V***@SendSpamHere.ORG]

Post by Mark Daniel

Post by IanMiller
Migration Specialties has announced a beta release of FreeAXP, a
technology demonstrator and free AlphaServer 400 hardware emulator.
FreeAXP is designed to be hosted on a Windows X86 and x64 systems.
Visit http://www.migrationspecialties.com/FreeAXP and click the
FreeAXP Download (Beta) link on the left side of the page. You will
also find links to the FreeAXP Release Notes, FreeAXP User Guide,
FreeAXP forum, and other FreeAXP documentation on the FreeAXP page.
Support is via the FreeAXP forum on the openvmshobbyist web site.
There will be a commercial Alphaerver emulator product from Migration
Specialties later this year.

In common with others posting against this item I too would have been
more interested in a Linux hosted FreeAXP. I run XP in Virtualbox for
the few occasions I need Windows and it seems silly to have that up just
to emulate AXP (Virtualbox's performance is very good but then it's a
virtual machine not an emulation).
Now, I would have posted the following performance results in the
FreeAXP forum
http://www.openvmshobbyist.org/forum/viewforum.php?forum_id=163
but as I lost a lot of interest when seeing the performance results
listed below there seemed little point in registering for a (probable)
single post. Someone here already registered may wish to post the
results for the benefit of the forum.
I used the VUPS.COM procedure
http://www.openvmshobbyist.org/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=163&thread_id=842
on the following systems ...
1) AlphaServer DS20 500 MHz OpenVMS V8.3 EV6 (21264) 500 Mhz
Approximate System VUPs Rating : 252.6
2) Digital Personal WorkStation OpenVMS V8.3 EV56 (21164A) 500 Mhz (my
development system at home)
Approximate System VUPs Rating : 153.6
3) Installed the current FreeAXP emulator on an HP 7900 CMT, Intel Core2
Service Pack 2 (a reasonably recent and quite respectable office
desktop) and installed VMS V8.3 from the distribution CD
FreeAXP reported itself as
AlphaServer 400 4/166 running OpenVMS V8.3 EV4 (21064) 1216 Mhz
Approximate System VUPs Rating : 16.0
Now to me this looks like an order of magnitude less performance than my
humble PWS500. It's unlikely I'd give up the PWS for anything less than
the current performance even considering the potential power savings and
the utility of having virtualised disks.

SimH VAX, even on modest hardware, performs better than that. I wouldn't
use an emulator for actual production or system replacement but one would
be nice to test and debug kernel hacks from time to time when on the road.

[bclaremont]

We'd be happy to have performance results posted in the FreeAXP forum:

http://www.openvmshobbyist.com/forum/viewforum.php?forum_id=163

All I ask is that everyone use the posted VUPS.COM procedure without
modification to obtain their results. That gives us a consistent
benchmark on both real Alpha hardware and FreeAXP host systems.

You will also find the answer to your idle loop question there.

[JF Mezei]

Post by bclaremont
http://www.openvmshobbyist.com/forum/viewforum.php?forum_id=163
You will also find the answer to your idle loop question there.

I have a problem with lack of idle loop handling. In my case, retiring
my VAX now would require that I run SIMH 24/7 so that when I need access
to my information that is still accessible via a VAX only application, I
can get to it quickly.

But that ends up wasting much CPU cycle (and heat/electricity since
newer 8086s have lower power consumption when they are idle or at low
CPU usage).

[Bob Eager]

Post by JF Mezei

http://www.openvmshobbyist.com/forum/viewforum.php?forum_id=163 You
will also find the answer to your idle loop question there.

I have a problem with lack of idle loop handling. In my case, retiring
my VAX now would require that I run SIMH 24/7 so that when I need access
to my information that is still accessible via a VAX only application, I
can get to it quickly.
But that ends up wasting much CPU cycle (and heat/electricity since
newer 8086s have lower power consumption when they are idle or at low
CPU usage).

Did you try SET CPU IDLE=VMS ?

Not perfect, but it helps. Also, throttling the simulation rate?

[JF Mezei]

Post by Bob Eager
Did you try SET CPU IDLE=VMS ?

bike:simh $ bin/vax

VAX simulator V3.8-1
sim> SET CPU IDLE=VMS
Invalid argument
sim>

[Bob Eager]

Post by JF Mezei

Post by Bob Eager
Did you try SET CPU IDLE=VMS ?

bike:simh $ bin/vax
VAX simulator V3.8-1
sim> SET CPU IDLE=VMS
Invalid argument
sim>

Seems to be: SET CPU IDLE
then SHOW CPU confirms it...