Discussion:
Why are VSI so focused on Sweden ?
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Simon Clubley
2024-10-28 13:21:53 UTC
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Has anything of special interest been revealed at the Bootcamp ?
There will be a boot camp in Malmo, Sweden next May, and another boot
camp next year in the US around this same time next year.
Thanks.
Curious.
Why the "wrong" side of Øresund?
Because there are still VMS users in Sweden and not in Denmark?
(no practical impact - from Copenhagen to Malmö is just 38 minutes
by train - and it is just 23 minutes from the airport to Malmö
compared to the 15 minutes to Copenhagen)
I am curious why VSI are so heavily focused on Sweden to the exclusion
of other European countries.

I know of the Swedish origins of VSI's backer, but even so and with all
other things being equal, I would have expected it to be held in a more
central European country such as Germany or Austria in order to make
it easier for much more of Europe to attend.

Is the remaining European VMS userbase really so heavily weighted to a
single smaller (by population) Northern European country instead of being
spread out more evenly across Europe ?

$ set response/mode=good_natured

At least they didn't decide to hold it in Bodø (or whatever the Swedish
version of that is). :-)

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Arne Vajhøj
2024-10-28 13:44:39 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
I know of the Swedish origins of VSI's backer, but even so and with all
other things being equal, I would have expected it to be held in a more
central European country such as Germany or Austria in order to make
it easier for much more of Europe to attend.
Is the remaining European VMS userbase really so heavily weighted to a
single smaller (by population) Northern European country instead of being
spread out more evenly across Europe ?
Sweden does have VMS users. But so does other European countries. I
would expect UK to have more than Sweden. Bigger country.

But travel wise Malmö is not bad. If you were to join then you
would make a very short flight London to Copenhagen, you land, you
walk through security, you jump on the train in the airport
and 25 minutes later you are in Malmö.
Post by Simon Clubley
At least they didn't decide to hold it in Bodø (or whatever the Swedish
version of that is). :-)
You have something about Bodø. Or in Swedish Bodö.

Arne
Simon Clubley
2024-10-28 18:52:57 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
I know of the Swedish origins of VSI's backer, but even so and with all
other things being equal, I would have expected it to be held in a more
central European country such as Germany or Austria in order to make
it easier for much more of Europe to attend.
Is the remaining European VMS userbase really so heavily weighted to a
single smaller (by population) Northern European country instead of being
spread out more evenly across Europe ?
Sweden does have VMS users. But so does other European countries. I
would expect UK to have more than Sweden. Bigger country.
That's what I thought as well.
Post by Arne Vajhøj
But travel wise Malmö is not bad. If you were to join then you
would make a very short flight London to Copenhagen, you land, you
walk through security, you jump on the train in the airport
and 25 minutes later you are in Malmö.
Post by Simon Clubley
At least they didn't decide to hold it in Bodø (or whatever the Swedish
version of that is). :-)
You have something about Bodø. Or in Swedish Bodö.
Yes. It's a place that has stuck in my mind as representing the extreme
north of Europe due to the fact it is in Europe but is also inside the
Arctic Circle.

I've long found it interesting just how diverse all the various countries
that make up Europe really are.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Arne Vajhøj
2024-10-28 19:08:37 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
Is the remaining European VMS userbase really so heavily weighted to a
single smaller (by population) Northern European country instead of being
spread out more evenly across Europe ?
Sweden does have VMS users. But so does other European countries. I
would expect UK to have more than Sweden. Bigger country.
That's what I thought as well.
Sweden does have VMS users left. And so does the UK.

I believe VMS is mostly gone from Denmark. Despite once
being very widely used .

Back in the 80's and early 90's VMS was used by several
big manufacturing companies, 2 out of 3 telcos, 1 oil company,
1 mid size bank, several parts of the government, lots
of educational institutions (out of 9 big higher education
institutions, then 3 were VMS shops, 3 used VMS some places
and only 3 did not use VMS).

Arne
Single Stage to Orbit
2024-10-28 20:09:11 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Sweden does have VMS users. But so does other European countries. I
would expect UK to have more than Sweden. Bigger country.
That's what I thought as well.
Sweden does have VMS users left. And so does the UK.
I believe VMS is mostly gone from Denmark. Despite once
being very widely used .
Back in the 80's and early 90's VMS was used by several
big manufacturing companies, 2 out of 3 telcos, 1 oil company,
1 mid size bank, several parts of the government, lots
of educational institutions (out of 9 big higher education
institutions, then 3 were VMS shops, 3 used VMS some places
and only 3 did not use VMS).
I developed an addiction to VMS at university during the 90s!
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens
Chris Townley
2024-10-28 21:43:54 UTC
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Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Sweden does have VMS users. But so does other European countries. I
would expect UK to have more than Sweden. Bigger country.
That's what I thought as well.
Sweden does have VMS users left. And so does the UK.
I believe VMS is mostly gone from Denmark. Despite once
being very widely used .
Back in the 80's and early 90's VMS was used by several
big manufacturing companies, 2 out of 3 telcos, 1 oil company,
1 mid size bank, several parts of the government, lots
of educational institutions (out of 9 big higher education
institutions, then 3 were VMS shops, 3 used VMS some places
and only 3 did not use VMS).
I developed an addiction to VMS at university during the 90s!
You obviously went to a good University!
--
Chris
Arne Vajhøj
2024-10-28 23:06:12 UTC
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Post by Chris Townley
Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Post by Arne Vajhøj
lots
of educational institutions (out of 9 big higher education
institutions, then 3 were VMS shops, 3 used VMS some places
and only 3 did not use VMS).
I developed an addiction to VMS at university during the 90s!
You obviously went to a good University!
VMS was pretty common back then.

Where I went:
* VMS Fortran for programming intro -> VMS Pascal for programming
* SAS on VMS for statistics
* Rdb for database
* DECtext for word processing -> WP 4.x on VMS for word processing
* S2020 for spreadsheet

Arne
Simon Clubley
2024-10-29 13:11:46 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Chris Townley
Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Post by Arne Vajhøj
lots
of educational institutions (out of 9 big higher education
institutions, then 3 were VMS shops, 3 used VMS some places
and only 3 did not use VMS).
I developed an addiction to VMS at university during the 90s!
You obviously went to a good University!
VMS was pretty common back then.
* VMS Fortran for programming intro -> VMS Pascal for programming
* SAS on VMS for statistics
* Rdb for database
* DECtext for word processing -> WP 4.x on VMS for word processing
The last WP available for VMS was WP 5.{something}. I still miss not
having directly editable reveal codes as a standard feature in "modern"
word processors.
Post by Arne Vajhøj
* S2020 for spreadsheet
Never heard of that one, but Lotus 1-2-3 was available for VMS.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Arne Vajhøj
2024-10-29 13:23:19 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Chris Townley
Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Post by Arne Vajhøj
lots
of educational institutions (out of 9 big higher education
institutions, then 3 were VMS shops, 3 used VMS some places
and only 3 did not use VMS).
I developed an addiction to VMS at university during the 90s!
You obviously went to a good University!
VMS was pretty common back then.
* VMS Fortran for programming intro -> VMS Pascal for programming
* SAS on VMS for statistics
* Rdb for database
* DECtext for word processing -> WP 4.x on VMS for word processing
The last WP available for VMS was WP 5.{something}.
Yes. I even think we did update even though when that happened
people were in the process of moving to DOS.

DEC's own word processor was WPS. Under ALLIN1 or standalone.
Post by Simon Clubley
I still miss not
having directly editable reveal codes as a standard feature in "modern"
word processors.
You don't feel tempted to edit the XML of today's word processors?

:-) :-) :-)

Yes - I liked that feature as well.
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
* S2020 for spreadsheet
Never heard of that one, but Lotus 1-2-3 was available for VMS.
I think it is this one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20/20_(spreadsheet_software)

I believe the command to start was s2020.

Glen Everhart also did a free spreadsheet for VMS
(ported to Linux since then).

Arne
Craig A. Berry
2024-10-29 22:19:20 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
                                                     I still miss not
having directly editable reveal codes as a standard feature in "modern"
word processors.
You don't feel tempted to edit the XML of today's word processors?
:-) :-) :-)
No one would willingly look at docx. But you can get something very
much like the old WordPerfect experience using a modern WYSIWIG XML
editor and a reasonable schema. See:

https://www.oxygenxml.com/xml_editor/WYSIWYG_Editors.html
Arne Vajhøj
2024-10-29 23:29:48 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
                                                     I still miss not
having directly editable reveal codes as a standard feature in "modern"
word processors.
You don't feel tempted to edit the XML of today's word processors?
:-) :-) :-)
No one would willingly look at docx.  But you can get something very
much like the old WordPerfect experience using a modern WYSIWIG XML
https://www.oxygenxml.com/xml_editor/WYSIWYG_Editors.html
I believe ODF is a lot more human friendly than OOXML.

But still more than a bit cumbersome.

Arne
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-10-30 00:17:07 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
I believe ODF is a lot more human friendly than OOXML.
It is also better-defined. The spec is a fraction of the size, and not
riddled with gaps and inconsistencies and just plain vague terms.
Simon Clubley
2024-10-30 13:07:43 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
The last WP available for VMS was WP 5.{something}.
Yes. I even think we did update even though when that happened
people were in the process of moving to DOS.
It's been a _long_ time :-), but I distinctly remember liking WP 5 and
I remember that it was fast and efficient to use.
Post by Arne Vajhøj
DEC's own word processor was WPS. Under ALLIN1 or standalone.
Post by Simon Clubley
I still miss not
having directly editable reveal codes as a standard feature in "modern"
word processors.
You don't feel tempted to edit the XML of today's word processors?
NO!!!
Post by Arne Vajhøj
:-) :-) :-)
:-)
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Yes - I liked that feature as well.
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
* S2020 for spreadsheet
Never heard of that one, but Lotus 1-2-3 was available for VMS.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20/20_(spreadsheet_software)
Ah, yes, _now_ I remember it. Never actually used it however.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
David Wade
2024-10-29 14:15:32 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Chris Townley
Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Post by Arne Vajhøj
lots
of educational institutions (out of 9 big higher education
institutions, then 3 were VMS shops, 3 used VMS some places
and only 3 did not use VMS).
I developed an addiction to VMS at university during the 90s!
You obviously went to a good University!
VMS was pretty common back then.
* VMS Fortran for programming intro -> VMS Pascal for programming
* SAS on VMS for statistics
* Rdb for database
* DECtext for word processing -> WP 4.x on VMS for word processing
The last WP available for VMS was WP 5.{something}. I still miss not
having directly editable reveal codes as a standard feature in "modern"
word processors.
Its difficult to do sensibly. Often the codes are inherited through
cascading styles, or by marking blocks of text, so there isn't a direct
mapping between the formatting of the display, and the embedded charaters..
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
* S2020 for spreadsheet
Never heard of that one, but Lotus 1-2-3 was available for VMS.
Simon.
Dave
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-10-29 20:42:58 UTC
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[“Reveal codes” is] difficult to do sensibly. Often the codes are
inherited through cascading styles, or by marking blocks of text, so
there isn't a direct mapping between the formatting of the display, and
the embedded charaters..
The only reason WordPerfect needed that feature was because it used
embedded formatting codes, which other word processors do not. So they
have no “codes” to “reveal”.
Arne Vajhøj
2024-10-29 23:36:48 UTC
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Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
[“Reveal codes” is] difficult to do sensibly. Often the codes are
inherited through cascading styles, or by marking blocks of text, so
there isn't a direct mapping between the formatting of the display, and
the embedded charaters..
The only reason WordPerfect needed that feature was because it used
embedded formatting codes, which other word processors do not. So they
have no “codes” to “reveal”.
All word processors embed formatting codes.

That is sort of the definition.

editor : enter text
word processor : enter text and formatting codes

Various runoff flavors, Tex/Latex, WP, old MSO binary format,
ODF, OOXML all use formatting codes of some sort.

The difference is the UI.

Writing Latex in EVE only support codes - no WYSIWYG.

MSO or LO only support WYSIWYG - no codes.

WP supported both semi-WYSIWYG (best possible on VT terminal)
and codes.

A lot of people liked that feature.

Whether it is practical to implement that feature today
is an open question. I believe both ODF and OOXML use
references, so that first a number of styles are defined
and then later the actual text just refer to styles.

Arne
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-10-30 00:15:52 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
[“Reveal codes” is] difficult to do sensibly. Often the codes are
inherited through cascading styles, or by marking blocks of text, so
there isn't a direct mapping between the formatting of the display,
and the embedded charaters..
The only reason WordPerfect needed that feature was because it used
embedded formatting codes, which other word processors do not. So they
have no “codes” to “reveal”.
All word processors embed formatting codes.
No they don’t. The more usual data structure is called “style runs”.
Single Stage to Orbit
2024-10-28 23:17:19 UTC
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Post by Chris Townley
Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Back in the 80's and early 90's VMS was used by several
big manufacturing companies, 2 out of 3 telcos, 1 oil company,
1 mid size bank, several parts of the government, lots
of educational institutions (out of 9 big higher education
institutions, then 3 were VMS shops, 3 used VMS some places
and only 3 did not use VMS).
I developed an addiction to VMS at university during the 90s!
You obviously went to a good University!
I only wish I could indulge it more often. But the hobbyist programme
of old is dead.
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens
Chris Townley
2024-10-29 00:08:48 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Post by Chris Townley
Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Back in the 80's and early 90's VMS was used by several
big manufacturing companies, 2 out of 3 telcos, 1 oil company,
1 mid size bank, several parts of the government, lots
of educational institutions (out of 9 big higher education
institutions, then 3 were VMS shops, 3 used VMS some places
and only 3 did not use VMS).
I developed an addiction to VMS at university during the 90s!
You obviously went to a good University!
I only wish I could indulge it more often. But the hobbyist programme
of old is dead.
Have you thought of applying for the Ambassador role?
--
Chris
Single Stage to Orbit
2024-10-29 06:25:51 UTC
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Post by Chris Townley
Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Post by Chris Townley
Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Back in the 80's and early 90's VMS was used by several
big manufacturing companies, 2 out of 3 telcos, 1 oil
company,
1 mid size bank, several parts of the government, lots
of educational institutions (out of 9 big higher education
institutions, then 3 were VMS shops, 3 used VMS some places
and only 3 did not use VMS).
I developed an addiction to VMS at university during the 90s!
You obviously went to a good University!
I only wish I could indulge it more often. But the hobbyist
programme
of old is dead.
Have you thought of applying for the Ambassador role?
I did. They acknowledged it, then nothing else happened.
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens
John H. Reinhardt
2024-10-29 11:50:49 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Post by Chris Townley
Post by Single Stage to Orbit
I only wish I could indulge it more often. But the hobbyist
programme
of old is dead.
Have you thought of applying for the Ambassador role?
I did. They acknowledged it, then nothing else happened.
Did you get an email titled "Welcome to the OpenVMS Ambassador's Program"? If so, there was a link in it that takes you to a page where you E-Sign an agreement. If that doesn't get signed then it stalls. If you didn't get that email (and it's not in SPAM or such) then VSI is behind. again.
--
John H. Reinhardt
Single Stage to Orbit
2024-10-29 22:44:30 UTC
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Post by John H. Reinhardt
Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Post by Chris Townley
Have you thought of applying for the Ambassador role?
I did. They acknowledged it, then nothing else happened.
Did you get an email titled "Welcome to the OpenVMS Ambassador's
Program"?  If so, there was a link in it that takes you to a page
where you E-Sign an agreement.  If that doesn't get signed then it
stalls.  If you didn't get that email (and it's not in SPAM or such)
then VSI is behind. again.
I don't think I ever got that e-mail. :( Maybe I should re-apply?
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens
Subcommandante XDelta
2024-11-02 22:55:35 UTC
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Permalink
Perhaps they are avoiding France, due to Gerard "Asterix" Calliet, and his band of fiesty, plucky, gallant, Gauls, with gonadic gumption, in the VMSGenerations group, whom have been delivering a Grandparental Masterclass in Oeuf Husbandry, for going on a decade, in terms of industry self-organisation, and representation, to the VMS eco-system, generally, and in particular to the VMS anglosphere - providing leadership, and North Star navigation, on preferable outcomes for both the VMS eco-system, and the new Romans (VSI). :-)

The sleek, lazy, domesticated, Sverige Vikings, are, perhaps, easier to wrangle.
France has better food and wine, compared to Swedish meatballs, and overpriced beer.
Post by Simon Clubley
Has anything of special interest been revealed at the Bootcamp ?
There will be a boot camp in Malmo, Sweden next May, and another boot
camp next year in the US around this same time next year.
Thanks.
Curious.
Why the "wrong" side of Øresund?
Because there are still VMS users in Sweden and not in Denmark?
(no practical impact - from Copenhagen to Malmö is just 38 minutes
by train - and it is just 23 minutes from the airport to Malmö
compared to the 15 minutes to Copenhagen)
I am curious why VSI are so heavily focused on Sweden to the exclusion
of other European countries.
I know of the Swedish origins of VSI's backer, but even so and with all
other things being equal, I would have expected it to be held in a more
central European country such as Germany or Austria in order to make
it easier for much more of Europe to attend.
Is the remaining European VMS userbase really so heavily weighted to a
single smaller (by population) Northern European country instead of being
spread out more evenly across Europe ?
$ set response/mode=good_natured
At least they didn't decide to hold it in Bodø (or whatever the Swedish
version of that is). :-)
Simon.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-11-03 00:14:13 UTC
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Post by Subcommandante XDelta
France has better food and wine, compared to Swedish meatballs, and overpriced beer.
The paradox of the Mediterranean diet: low heart disease, high liver
disease.
Scott Dorsey
2025-02-23 18:03:27 UTC
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Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Subcommandante XDelta
France has better food and wine, compared to Swedish meatballs, and overpriced beer.
The paradox of the Mediterranean diet: low heart disease, high liver
disease.
And no knackebrod.
I do agree about the overpriced beer though.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Simon Clubley
2024-11-04 13:09:33 UTC
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Post by Subcommandante XDelta
Perhaps they are avoiding France, due to Gerard "Asterix" Calliet, and his band of fiesty, plucky, gallant, Gauls, with gonadic gumption, in the VMSGenerations group, whom have been delivering a Grandparental Masterclass in Oeuf Husbandry, for going on a decade, in terms of industry self-organisation, and representation, to the VMS eco-system, generally, and in particular to the VMS anglosphere - providing leadership, and North Star navigation, on preferable outcomes for both the VMS eco-system, and the new Romans (VSI). :-)
$ set response/mode=very_good_natured

You are Kamala Harris and I claim my 5 pounds. :-)

IOW, nice word salad. I will be worried if the day comes when I can
understand the above. :-)
Post by Subcommandante XDelta
The sleek, lazy, domesticated, Sverige Vikings, are, perhaps, easier to wrangle.
France has better food and wine, compared to Swedish meatballs, and overpriced beer.
It is sometimes said that the French live to eat, while everyone else
eats to live. :-)

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Simon Clubley
2024-11-04 18:17:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Subcommandante XDelta
Perhaps they are avoiding France, due to Gerard "Asterix" Calliet, and his band of fiesty, plucky, gallant, Gauls, with gonadic gumption, in the VMSGenerations group, whom have been delivering a Grandparental Masterclass in Oeuf Husbandry, for going on a decade, in terms of industry self-organisation, and representation, to the VMS eco-system, generally, and in particular to the VMS anglosphere - providing leadership, and North Star navigation, on preferable outcomes for both the VMS eco-system, and the new Romans (VSI). :-)
$ set response/mode=very_good_natured
You are Kamala Harris and I claim my 5 pounds. :-)
IOW, nice word salad. I will be worried if the day comes when I can
understand the above. :-)
Having read that again, I just want to make it _very_ clear the above
comment does NOT mean I support the alternative, because I do not.

In fact, as far as I am concerned, it doesn't matter who "wins" tomorrow
because all of us still lose.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Camiel Vanderhoeven
2024-11-03 10:32:00 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
Curious.
Why the "wrong" side of Øresund?
Because there are still VMS users in Sweden and not in Denmark?
I am curious why VSI are so heavily focused on Sweden to the exclusion
of other European countries.
It's certainly a curious discussion that has spun up here :-)

I fear the reasons to have the bootcamp in Malmö are a lot more mundane
than some of the theories I came across here.

We just organized the first VMS bootcamp since 2017 in the US. For some
reasons, we wanted it to be close to our office in Boston:

- easy access for our engineers to deliver presentations on various topics;
- easy access for our office staff who did a lot of the organizing, not
just during the bootcamp, but also in the weeks leading up to it for
preparations.

These same considerations play a role as we prepare for the first ever
VMS bootcamp in Europe. While we have people all over Europe (including
Germany, France, and yours truly in the Netherlands), we have offices
with a VMS engineering team in three places: Copenhagen (Denmark),
Yerevan (Armenia) and Athens (Greece). The team we have in Greece is
just getting started, and Yerevan is a little bit more difficult to get
to (fewer flights, often at inconvenient times).

That leaves Copenhagen. Unfortunately, organizing a conference in
Copenhagen would be very expensive, both for us and for attendees.
Doing it in Malmö, we can probably cut the cost in half for both, and as
Arne said, getting there from the airport takes only a few minutes longer.

That's about as poetic as I can make it :-)

Camiel
John Dallman
2024-11-03 11:23:00 UTC
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Post by Camiel Vanderhoeven
I fear the reasons to have the bootcamp in Malmö are a lot more
mundane than some of the theories I came across here.
It's unfashionable to do things for simple, sensible and pragmatic
reasons. Please carry on operating that way - it's refreshing in a world
driven by popular delusion.

John
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-11-03 23:35:39 UTC
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Post by John Dallman
It's unfashionable to do things for simple, sensible and pragmatic
reasons. Please carry on operating that way - it's refreshing in a world
driven by popular delusion.
That’s what the Lizard People WANT you to believe ... !!!!!
Arne Vajhøj
2024-11-03 14:23:38 UTC
Reply
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Post by Camiel Vanderhoeven
Post by Simon Clubley
Curious.
Why the "wrong" side of Øresund?
Because there are still VMS users in Sweden and not in Denmark?
I am curious why VSI are so heavily focused on Sweden to the exclusion
of other European countries.
It's certainly a curious discussion that has spun up here :-)
I fear the reasons to have the bootcamp in Malmö are a lot more mundane
than some of the theories I came across here.
We just organized the first VMS bootcamp since 2017 in the US. For some
- easy access for our engineers to deliver presentations on various topics;
- easy access for our office staff who did a lot of the organizing, not
just during the bootcamp, but also in the weeks leading up to it for
preparations.
These same considerations play a role as we prepare for the first ever
VMS bootcamp in Europe. While we have people all over Europe (including
Germany, France, and yours truly in the Netherlands), we have offices
with a VMS engineering team in three places: Copenhagen (Denmark),
Yerevan (Armenia) and Athens (Greece). The team we have in Greece is
just getting started, and Yerevan is a little bit more difficult to get
to (fewer flights, often at inconvenient times).
That leaves Copenhagen. Unfortunately, organizing a conference in
Copenhagen  would be very expensive, both for us and for attendees.
Doing it in Malmö, we can probably cut the cost in half for both, and as
Arne said, getting there from the airport takes only a few minutes longer.
That's about as poetic as I can make it :-)
So the short answer is that the bootcamp is on the "wrong" side of
Øresund because the hotel prices in Copenhagen are legal highway
robbery?

:-)

Arne
Simon Clubley
2024-11-04 13:19:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
So the short answer is that the bootcamp is on the "wrong" side of
Øresund because the hotel prices in Copenhagen are legal highway
robbery?
Interesting. I knew it wasn't cheap, but I didn't realise Copenhagen
was so expensive.

How does it compare to, say, Zürich ?

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Arne Vajhøj
2024-11-04 23:42:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
So the short answer is that the bootcamp is on the "wrong" side of
Øresund because the hotel prices in Copenhagen are legal highway
robbery?
Interesting. I knew it wasn't cheap, but I didn't realise Copenhagen
was so expensive.
How does it compare to, say, Zürich ?
I just knew that Copenhagen was expensive. I have never stayed
in Zurich.

But I tried looking up a random hotel chain (Radisson) for a
random day (December 8th) and I saw:

Zurich 93 USD
Malmö 95 USD
London (Heathrow) 112 USD
Copenhagen (Amager) 117 USD
Copenhagen (Center) 197 USD
London (Leicester Sq) 254 USD
London (Mercer St) 262 USD

Arne
Simon Clubley
2024-11-05 13:10:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
So the short answer is that the bootcamp is on the "wrong" side of
Øresund because the hotel prices in Copenhagen are legal highway
robbery?
Interesting. I knew it wasn't cheap, but I didn't realise Copenhagen
was so expensive.
How does it compare to, say, Zürich ?
I just knew that Copenhagen was expensive. I have never stayed
in Zurich.
Likewise, but I am aware of its reputation, which is why I asked.
Looks like it's a lot cheaper for tourists than residents. :-)
Post by Arne Vajhøj
But I tried looking up a random hotel chain (Radisson) for a
Zurich 93 USD
Malmö 95 USD
London (Heathrow) 112 USD
Copenhagen (Amager) 117 USD
Copenhagen (Center) 197 USD
London (Leicester Sq) 254 USD
London (Mercer St) 262 USD
Interesting. That was not what I was expecting to see.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Scott Dorsey
2025-02-23 17:59:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
I am curious why VSI are so heavily focused on Sweden to the exclusion
of other European countries.
Real Answer: there are a couple of very large VMS customers in Sweden.

Non-real Answers:

1. Everyone wants to take their vax to Vaxholm
2. Swedish women are the most beautiful in the world
3. Their plan to offer salmiakki with software distribution CDs was
not successful in most other countries.

--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Alan Frisbie
2025-03-01 22:43:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Simon Clubley
I am curious why VSI are so heavily focused on Sweden to the exclusion
of other European countries.
3. Their plan to offer salmiakki with software distribution CDs was
not successful in most other countries.
At least it met with more success than their previous plan of offering
Surströmming! :-) :-) :-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surstr%C3%B6mming

Alan Frisbie
Simon Clubley
2025-03-04 13:11:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Alan Frisbie
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Simon Clubley
I am curious why VSI are so heavily focused on Sweden to the exclusion
of other European countries.
3. Their plan to offer salmiakki with software distribution CDs was
not successful in most other countries.
At least it met with more success than their previous plan of offering
Surströmming! :-) :-) :-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surstr%C3%B6mming
I wonder how long it is going to be before nobody wants to buy _anything_
from a US company given just how toxic and untrustworthy the US has
become over the last month ? :-(

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Dave Froble
2025-03-06 00:59:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Alan Frisbie
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Simon Clubley
I am curious why VSI are so heavily focused on Sweden to the exclusion
of other European countries.
3. Their plan to offer salmiakki with software distribution CDs was
not successful in most other countries.
At least it met with more success than their previous plan of offering
Surströmming! :-) :-) :-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surstr%C3%B6mming
I wonder how long it is going to be before nobody wants to buy _anything_
from a US company given just how toxic and untrustworthy the US has
become over the last month ? :-(
Simon.
Hey! It ain't the USA. It's Trump and his minions.

But, yeah, don't patronize them. The idiots that voted for him will equire much
pain before they realize just what idiots they are. He lies to them, and they
like it.
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
John Dallman
2025-03-06 09:36:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Froble
Hey! It ain't the USA. It's Trump and his minions.
Who have control of the executive, and are doing lots of damage.
Post by Dave Froble
But, yeah, don't patronize them. The idiots that voted for him
will equire much pain before they realize just what idiots they
are. He lies to them, and they like it.
Yup. And this can happen again, in a few years. Trust will be hard to
recover.

John
Simon Clubley
2025-03-10 18:25:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Dallman
Post by Dave Froble
Hey! It ain't the USA. It's Trump and his minions.
Who have control of the executive, and are doing lots of damage.
Post by Dave Froble
But, yeah, don't patronize them. The idiots that voted for him
will equire much pain before they realize just what idiots they
are. He lies to them, and they like it.
Yup. And this can happen again, in a few years. Trust will be hard to
recover.
I think these actions have broken the trust relationship with Europe
for at least the next several decades due to the fact that even if
you get a decent team in, they can still be kicked out in 4 years time.

BTW, I wonder if Mr Trump realises that you can't even make modern
high-performance processors without critical European technology...

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Dan Cross
2025-03-10 18:44:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by John Dallman
Post by Dave Froble
Hey! It ain't the USA. It's Trump and his minions.
Who have control of the executive, and are doing lots of damage.
Post by Dave Froble
But, yeah, don't patronize them. The idiots that voted for him
will equire much pain before they realize just what idiots they
are. He lies to them, and they like it.
Yup. And this can happen again, in a few years. Trust will be hard to
recover.
I think these actions have broken the trust relationship with Europe
for at least the next several decades due to the fact that even if
you get a decent team in, they can still be kicked out in 4 years time.
BTW, I wonder if Mr Trump realises that you can't even make modern
high-performance processors without critical European technology...
Trump understand very little. He is, by all accounts, a very
ignorant man. I did not vote for him, and never would; I am
embarrassed for and ashamed of my fellow citizens who did.

- Dan C.
Robert A. Brooks
2025-03-10 18:59:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
BTW, I wonder if Mr Trump realises that you can't even make modern
high-performance processors without critical European technology...
I wouldn't give him the respect that the honorific "Mr" conveys.
--
-- Rob
Chris Townley
2025-03-10 19:04:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert A. Brooks
Post by Simon Clubley
BTW, I wonder if Mr Trump realises that you can't even make modern
high-performance processors without critical European technology...
I wouldn't give him the respect that the honorific "Mr" conveys.
Perhaps Mr Rump sounds better?
--
Chris
Arne Vajhøj
2025-03-10 19:22:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert A. Brooks
Post by Simon Clubley
BTW, I wonder if Mr Trump realises that you can't even make modern
high-performance processors without critical European technology...
I wouldn't give him the respect that the honorific "Mr" conveys.
I suspect "Mr" may be slightly different in the US and UK.

Simon did not use "The Rt Hon" Trump. Which besides not
being used in the US also does not seem fitting.

Arne
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2025-03-10 23:36:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Simon did not use "The Rt Hon" Trump. Which besides not being used in
the US also does not seem fitting.
They’re not supposed to have honorifics in the US. But then they end up
referring to ex-politicians by their last-held title, e.g. living ex-
Presidents continue to be titled as “President”.
Rich Alderson
2025-03-12 00:43:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Simon did not use "The Rt Hon" Trump. Which besides not being used in
the US also does not seem fitting.
They're not supposed to have honorifics in the US. But then they end up
referring to ex-politicians by their last-held title, e.g. living ex-
Presidents continue to be titled as "President".
Which is something that changed in my lifetime. Before Reagan, ex-Presidents
were addressed by the highest non-presidential title they held, or simply "Mr."
--
Rich Alderson ***@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen
Dan Cross
2025-03-12 01:33:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich Alderson
Simon did not use "The Rt Hon" Trump. Which besides not being used in
the US also does not seem fitting.
They're not supposed to have honorifics in the US. But then they end up
referring to ex-politicians by their last-held title, e.g. living ex-
Presidents continue to be titled as "President".
Which is something that changed in my lifetime. Before Reagan, ex-Presidents
were addressed by the highest non-presidential title they held, or simply "Mr."
Reagan held a relatively low rank in the US Army Air Corps
during World War II; I believe he left the service as a Captain.
As I understand it, he held a non-combat role, leveraging his
acting experience to make training films and so on. He is said
to have started the modern tradition of returning the salute of
the Marines as he entered and exited HMX-1, apparently out of a
sense of guilt. Anyway, "Captain" is probably not a title one
would use for a former President, though Truman had famously
been a Captain in command of an artillery battery during World
War I, so maybe. Of course, Reagan had also been been a
Governor, so could have used that title. I suppose that would
have been confusing.

I wonder if I can try and use my former military rank as a
title. "Please, call me Captain."" The British do that, don't
they? Or is that just in Agatha Christie novels? Anyway, I
don't think it would fly.

- Dan C.
Anonymous
2025-03-12 03:20:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I’m not objecting to any specific post or topic in this thread, but don’t
even people who occasionally enjoy echo chambers eventually get bored of
them?
;-)
Of course, since the earliest years of c.o.v we’ve very frequently
witnessed their formation here. Maybe more often than in the present case
(though this topic is small, historically speaking), with at least a
tendency to have a continuing sub-thread at of least somewhat c.o.v.
subject-relevant content.

;-)
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2025-03-12 04:07:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anonymous
I’m not objecting to any specific post or topic in this thread, but
don’t even people who occasionally enjoy echo chambers eventually get
bored of them?
Or you could express your opposing viewpoint in a passive-aggressive
way ...
Dan Cross
2025-03-12 04:16:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I’m not objecting to any specific post or topic in this thread, but don’t
even people who occasionally enjoy echo chambers eventually get bored of
them?
;-)
Of course, since the earliest years of c.o.v we’ve very frequently
witnessed their formation here. Maybe more often than in the present case
(though this topic is small, historically speaking), with at least a
tendency to have a continuing sub-thread at of least somewhat c.o.v.
subject-relevant content.
;-)
You know, it's funny. I've spent a lot of time over the last 8
years thinking about echo chambers, because it seemed so utterly
improbable that the American public could vote Donald Trump into
the presidency, not once, but twice. Surely his obvious lying,
his transparent grifting, his shameless and lifelong tendency to
take advantage of others was so clear that no one would take him
seriously, let alone vote for him. And yet, here we are.

So I have to ask myself, seriously, "do all those people see
something that I don't?" And, "am I the one that's wrong?"
After all, how would I know if I was, in fact, living in an echo
chamber.

My conclusion was that, no, I'm not just living in an echo
chamber; in fact, I know a lot of people who voted for Trump,
because they fully believe the things he's telling them. And
(not to praise myself here, but this is just true...) I know a
lot more people from very different walks of life than many of
my friends, neighbors, or family. Part of that is because I
have had more of an opportunity to live and work with folks,
e.g., in the military, that many people I know who followed the
high school straight into college and then into one or more of
{industry, grad school, academia, research} life track just
would not encounter. Many of those people have _very_ different
backgrounds than me, yet when you share a rack with them in an
open squad bay for three months, spending an hour sitting next
to them cleaning your rifle every night; or when you're working
with them with a 40' shipping container covered with camo
netting as your "office" for seven months, and sleeping next to
them in a GP tent lined with GI cots; well, you get to know them
whether you want to or not.

But something I _do_ think is that I inhabit a completely
different reality than they do. It's not that I don't _hear_
them or am never confronted with their existence, it's that I
don't _believe_ what they say, and vice versa.

So now I'm back to the other, bigger fear: do they see something
in this whole Trump/MAGA/whatever thing that I don't? Some of
these people I've literally trusted with my life; should I trust
them on this stuff?

And my conclusion again is no, they don't; Trump really is just
a lying conman. But this one is both harder and easier to
reason about and come to that conclusion.

First, much of the current rightwing drive towards fascism in
the US is predicated on belief in objective falsehoods: climate
change isn't real (we have data), we can't afford universal
health care (that every other developed nation in the world can
is the existence proof that this is false), tax breaks for the
very rich will trickle wealth down to the masses (been tried for
40 years and hasn't worked yet), Trump is a good businessman
(the dude bankrupted a casino. Twice. In Atlantic City).
Democrats are ritually sacrificing children to demons and
drinking their blood to live forever (I don't even know where to
start with this one), 5G cell phones give you COVID-19 and the
vaccine is full of microchips funded by Bill Gates (...), and on
and on and on.

On the other hand, the opposition aligns with things that are
frequently objectively testable, measureable, and falsifiable.
More often than not, what they say turns out to be correct,
while the right wing does not. I'm not a lawyer, but one _can_
look at, say, the evidence in the trial that Trump lost,
resulting in his felony convictions, and judge for oneself and
say, "yes, based on my understanding of the law, and that of
those with training in it that I trust, he did commit these
crimes." And that's a lot more persuasive than what appears to
be a counter-argument of the form, "I'm upset that it was my guy
who was busted, so I'm going to say it was a politically
motivated witch hunt!"

So in some sense it's easier to see this: I look at which side
most often aligns with objectively measureable reality, across a
variety of topics, and align with that side, because I believe
that they are correspondingly more likely to be correct about
Trump and the Republicans.

In another sense, drawing that conclusion is harder precisely
because of this: being right about subject A doesn't
automatically make one right about subject B, and indeed, that
is a well-known logical fallacy. But, if one sees the pattern
repeat itself enough times, about enough different things, then
I think that one _can_ have some confidence that it is more
likely repeating about a related subject.

So that's where I fall on echo chambers and belief bubbles. One
should always be vigilent against falling into either; but in
this case, evidence points to the correct interpretation.

And by the way, yes, I used the word fascism. Let's not delude
ourselves; that's precisely what Trump and the Republican party
are pushing in the US. Perhaps not (yet) of the Germany, 1933
style, but definitely of the Italy, 1925 style.

- Dan C.
Simon Clubley
2025-03-12 13:21:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Cross
Post by Anonymous
I’m not objecting to any specific post or topic in this thread, but don’t
even people who occasionally enjoy echo chambers eventually get bored of
them?
;-)
Of course, since the earliest years of c.o.v we’ve very frequently
witnessed their formation here. Maybe more often than in the present case
(though this topic is small, historically speaking), with at least a
tendency to have a continuing sub-thread at of least somewhat c.o.v.
subject-relevant content.
;-)
You know, it's funny. I've spent a lot of time over the last 8
years thinking about echo chambers, because it seemed so utterly
improbable that the American public could vote Donald Trump into
the presidency, not once, but twice. Surely his obvious lying,
his transparent grifting, his shameless and lifelong tendency to
take advantage of others was so clear that no one would take him
seriously, let alone vote for him. And yet, here we are.
So I have to ask myself, seriously, "do all those people see
something that I don't?" And, "am I the one that's wrong?"
After all, how would I know if I was, in fact, living in an echo
chamber.
One of the things I do to make sure I never fall into this trap is to
expose myself to sources of information or viewpoints I strongly disagree
with, to make sure they don't reveal something that my normal sources of
information have "forgotten" to mention.

It helps you to understand what others are thinking and to help you build
a well-rounded model of reality instead of your reality been based on one
specific set of views.

It would be nice if Mr Trump's supporters could do the same.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Dan Cross
2025-03-12 15:54:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Dan Cross
I’m not objecting to any specific post or topic in this thread, but don’t
even people who occasionally enjoy echo chambers eventually get bored of
them?
;-)
Of course, since the earliest years of c.o.v we’ve very frequently
witnessed their formation here. Maybe more often than in the present case
(though this topic is small, historically speaking), with at least a
tendency to have a continuing sub-thread at of least somewhat c.o.v.
subject-relevant content.
;-)
You know, it's funny. I've spent a lot of time over the last 8
years thinking about echo chambers, because it seemed so utterly
improbable that the American public could vote Donald Trump into
the presidency, not once, but twice. Surely his obvious lying,
his transparent grifting, his shameless and lifelong tendency to
take advantage of others was so clear that no one would take him
seriously, let alone vote for him. And yet, here we are.
So I have to ask myself, seriously, "do all those people see
something that I don't?" And, "am I the one that's wrong?"
After all, how would I know if I was, in fact, living in an echo
chamber.
One of the things I do to make sure I never fall into this trap is to
expose myself to sources of information or viewpoints I strongly disagree
with, to make sure they don't reveal something that my normal sources of
information have "forgotten" to mention.
It helps you to understand what others are thinking and to help you build
a well-rounded model of reality instead of your reality been based on one
specific set of views.
This is good advice. Fortunately (??), at the moment over here,
we have very little choice but to do this.
Post by Simon Clubley
It would be nice if Mr Trump's supporters could do the same.
Agreed.

- Dan C.
Anonymous
2025-03-14 02:41:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
One of the things I do to make sure I never fall into this trap is to
expose myself to sources of information or viewpoints I strongly disagree
with, to make sure they don't reveal something that my normal sources of
information have "forgotten" to mention.
I’m a great advocate of reading, and over as many subjects, genres,
historical periods, literary traditions, etc., as a person can fit in. And
I live by it.

Those of younger generations where I work (mostly prosperous, of at least
average health) are sometimes surprised that I take such an interest in
reading so widely. If few of them ever choose to take up any kind of
longer-form text to read (even in digital format) that’s their right, of
course. Am I being old fashioned to think some of them might find life at
least a little richer or rewarding if they tried reading more?
Michael S
2025-03-12 10:07:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 12 Mar 2025 03:20:09 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Anonymous
I’m not objecting to any specific post or topic in this thread, but
don’t even people who occasionally enjoy echo chambers eventually get
bored of them?
;-)
Of course, since the earliest years of c.o.v we’ve very frequently
witnessed their formation here. Maybe more often than in the present
case (though this topic is small, historically speaking), with at
least a tendency to have a continuing sub-thread at of least somewhat
c.o.v. subject-relevant content.
;-)
It seems comp.os.vms regulars find Trump more exciting that Lutefisk.
Anonymous
2025-03-14 02:41:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Michael S
On Wed, 12 Mar 2025 03:20:09 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Anonymous
I’m not objecting to any specific post or topic in this thread, but
don’t even people who occasionally enjoy echo chambers eventually get
bored of them?
;-)
Of course, since the earliest years of c.o.v we’ve very frequently
witnessed their formation here. Maybe more often than in the present
case (though this topic is small, historically speaking), with at
least a tendency to have a continuing sub-thread at of least somewhat
c.o.v. subject-relevant content.
;-)
It seems comp.os.vms regulars find Trump more exciting that Lutefisk.
:-D
Simon Clubley
2025-03-12 13:08:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I?m not objecting to any specific post or topic in this thread, but don?t
even people who occasionally enjoy echo chambers eventually get bored of
them?
;-)
Of course, since the earliest years of c.o.v we?ve very frequently
witnessed their formation here. Maybe more often than in the present case
(though this topic is small, historically speaking), with at least a
tendency to have a continuing sub-thread at of least somewhat c.o.v.
subject-relevant content.
;-)
No problem. What VMS topic should we talk about ?

1) The new TECO version for x86-64 VMS ?

2) The new Ada compiler for x86-64 VMS ?

3) The new syntax colour coding that Rob has added to EDT ?

4) The new AI module for DCL (because let's face it, everything needs an
AI module built into it these days, or so marketing would tell you... :-) )

Discussion on any of these topics (or more serious ones :-) ) are welcome.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Anonymous
2025-03-14 02:41:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
No problem. What VMS topic should we talk about ?
1) The new TECO version for x86-64 VMS ?
2) The new Ada compiler for x86-64 VMS ?
3) The new syntax colour coding that Rob has added to EDT ?
4) The new AI module for DCL (because let's face it, everything needs an
AI module built into it these days, or so marketing would tell you... :-) )
Discussion on any of these topics (or more serious ones :-) ) are welcome.
Simon.
:-D :-D :-D
Simon Clubley
2025-03-17 18:52:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anonymous
Post by Simon Clubley
No problem. What VMS topic should we talk about ?
1) The new TECO version for x86-64 VMS ?
2) The new Ada compiler for x86-64 VMS ?
3) The new syntax colour coding that Rob has added to EDT ?
4) The new AI module for DCL (because let's face it, everything needs an
AI module built into it these days, or so marketing would tell you... :-) )
Discussion on any of these topics (or more serious ones :-) ) are welcome.
:-D :-D :-D
The point I am making is that VMS functionality is mostly stagnant.

It's mostly tweaks and new versions of existing packages. There isn't
the kind of development that goes on in (for example) the Linux world.

The remaining VMS community clearly prefers this unchanging situation,
and for valid reasons (from their point of view), but it also means there
are few new exciting topics to talk about. :-)

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Arne Vajhøj
2025-03-18 01:57:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
The point I am making is that VMS functionality is mostly stagnant.
It's mostly tweaks and new versions of existing packages. There isn't
the kind of development that goes on in (for example) the Linux world.
The remaining VMS community clearly prefers this unchanging situation,
and for valid reasons (from their point of view), but it also means there
are few new exciting topics to talk about. :-)
There are coming new stuff to VMS.

There are obviously a lot more new stuff in the Linux world than
in the VMS world.

But that is like a law of nature due to the resources thrown
into Linux development by many big and small companies compared
to the resources available to VSI.

My feeling is that the VMS community would like to see faster
development than what VSI can deliver but still prefer slower
development than seen in the Linux world.

The VMS community is special though, because even if people
would like to see X, Y and Z in VMS then there is practically
nobody that will work to bring X, Y and Z to VMS.

(there are some things only VSI could add to VMS because
it requires modifying VMS itself, but most stuff could
be added by anyone)

Arne
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2025-03-18 03:25:52 UTC
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But that is like a law of nature due to the resources thrown into Linux
development by many big and small companies compared to the resources
available to VSI.
It wasn’t always that way.

In the early 1990s, DEC was still a big company. Linux was, in Torvalds’
own words, “just a hobby, won’t be big and professional like GNU”. And GNU
itself was a pipsqueak compared to a proprietary company like DEC or
Microsoft.

Scott Dorsey
2025-03-12 22:53:56 UTC
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I’m not objecting to any specific post or topic in this thread, but don’t
even people who occasionally enjoy echo chambers eventually get bored of
them?
;-)
I am only reading this thread in hopes of someone mentioning semlor and
toscakaka.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Dennis Boone
2025-03-13 00:31:00 UTC
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Post by Scott Dorsey
I am only reading this thread in hopes of someone mentioning semlor and
toscakaka.
Well, guess you don't have to read it any more. :)

De
Simon Clubley
2025-03-11 13:37:00 UTC
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Post by Robert A. Brooks
Post by Simon Clubley
BTW, I wonder if Mr Trump realises that you can't even make modern
high-performance processors without critical European technology...
I wouldn't give him the respect that the honorific "Mr" conveys.
Over here, it's just a polite way some people use to refer to someone
in a neutral way in situations like this. No respect is intended by
the use of the word "Mr".

OTOH, there is/was a use that is directly applicable here. :-) I don't
know if they still do it these days, but in times gone by some teachers
would talk to a misbehaving child in this way:

"Mr Smith." <slight pause> "What makes you think _that_ was acceptable ?"

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Dan Cross
2025-03-11 15:01:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Robert A. Brooks
Post by Simon Clubley
BTW, I wonder if Mr Trump realises that you can't even make modern
high-performance processors without critical European technology...
I wouldn't give him the respect that the honorific "Mr" conveys.
Over here, it's just a polite way some people use to refer to someone
in a neutral way in situations like this. No respect is intended by
the use of the word "Mr".
I'm reminded of the New York Times, which has an editorial
policy to use such a title when writing about anyone: "Mr
So-and-so" or "Ms Such-and-such". This includes people that
are otherwise reviled, historically or otherwise. It was
jarring, sometime shortly after the 9/11 terrorist attacks, to
read about "Mr Bin-laden" in the Times.
Post by Simon Clubley
OTOH, there is/was a use that is directly applicable here. :-) I don't
know if they still do it these days, but in times gone by some teachers
"Mr Smith." <slight pause> "What makes you think _that_ was acceptable ?"
Still done. Sometimes even parents do that to kids. "Just what
do you think you're doing, Mister?"

- Dan C.
John Dallman
2025-03-10 20:21:00 UTC
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Permalink
BTW, I wonder if Trump realises that you can't even make modern
high-performance processors without critical European technology...
I wonder if Trump understands what processors are even for?

John
Dan Cross
2025-03-10 20:49:27 UTC
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Post by John Dallman
BTW, I wonder if Trump realises that you can't even make modern
high-performance processors without critical European technology...
I wonder if Trump understands what processors are even for?
My suspicion is that he'd probably confuse them with food
processors. Come to think of it, I kind of doubt that he knows
what those are, either.

- Dan C.
Dave Froble
2025-03-10 23:36:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by John Dallman
Post by Dave Froble
Hey! It ain't the USA. It's Trump and his minions.
Who have control of the executive, and are doing lots of damage.
Post by Dave Froble
But, yeah, don't patronize them. The idiots that voted for him
will equire much pain before they realize just what idiots they
are. He lies to them, and they like it.
Yup. And this can happen again, in a few years. Trust will be hard to
recover.
I think these actions have broken the trust relationship with Europe
for at least the next several decades due to the fact that even if
you get a decent team in, they can still be kicked out in 4 years time.
Isn't that everywhere, well, except for Russia, China, and such dictatorships?
Post by Simon Clubley
BTW, I wonder if Mr Trump realises that you can't even make modern
high-performance processors without critical European technology...
You give the idiot way too much credit.

But the pain is on it's way.

Ontario is adding a 25% surcharge to electricity sold across the border.

:-)

The stock markets are tanking ....

Perhaps it's time to consider recalling Trump?
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Dan Cross
2025-03-10 23:46:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by John Dallman
Post by Dave Froble
Hey! It ain't the USA. It's Trump and his minions.
Who have control of the executive, and are doing lots of damage.
Post by Dave Froble
But, yeah, don't patronize them. The idiots that voted for him
will equire much pain before they realize just what idiots they
are. He lies to them, and they like it.
Yup. And this can happen again, in a few years. Trust will be hard to
recover.
I think these actions have broken the trust relationship with Europe
for at least the next several decades due to the fact that even if
you get a decent team in, they can still be kicked out in 4 years time.
Isn't that everywhere, well, except for Russia, China, and such dictatorships?
Sure seems like that.

The reality is that _most_ Americans can't stand the guy. It's
just that the way that our weird (and arguably messed up)
electoral system works that allowed a minority to vote him into
office.
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Simon Clubley
BTW, I wonder if Mr Trump realises that you can't even make modern
high-performance processors without critical European technology...
You give the idiot way too much credit.
But the pain is on it's way.
Ontario is adding a 25% surcharge to electricity sold across the border.
:-)
The stock markets are tanking ....
Perhaps it's time to consider recalling Trump?
He should never have been elected a second time to begin with.
If nothing else, then the attack on the US Capitol on Jan 6,
2021, as he deparately tried to cling to power should have been
the end of his political career _and_ he should have been thrown
into prison for his coup attempt. But his supporters are
basically in a cult.

Trust me, to our European friends reading this, no matter how
upset you are over this actions, those of us who stand opposed
to him right here in the US are even more so.

- Dan C.
Arne Vajhøj
2025-03-11 00:47:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Cross
The reality is that _most_ Americans can't stand the guy. It's
just that the way that our weird (and arguably messed up)
electoral system works that allowed a minority to vote him into
office.
In 2016 he did not get the most votes (he got 63M
while Hilary got 66M).

But in 2024 he did get the most votes (he got 77M while
Kamala got 75M).

Mr. sofa got 91M and 87M respectively in those two elections.

Arne
Dan Cross
2025-03-11 02:19:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Dan Cross
The reality is that _most_ Americans can't stand the guy. It's
just that the way that our weird (and arguably messed up)
electoral system works that allowed a minority to vote him into
office.
In 2016 he did not get the most votes (he got 63M
while Hilary got 66M).
But in 2024 he did get the most votes (he got 77M while
Kamala got 75M).
Mr. sofa got 91M and 87M respectively in those two elections.
And that's the fundamental problem. More people voted for their
couch than for either candidate in 2024.

Like I said, most of us really can't stand the idiot, but not
enough bothered to show up to the polls in Pennsylvania,
Wisconsin, or Michigan and make their voices heard. Some tried
but were turned away by, denied by to the success of right wing
voter suppresion efforts to purge voter roles and hobble voting
infrastructure in majority democrat parts of red states: if you
know you can't win because your ideas are unpopular, cheat by
kneecapping your opposition: you don't need to outrun the wolves
you just need to outrun the guy next to you. Others were
sufficiently dissatisfied with the Democrats as the opposition
party that, even though they didn't vote for Trump themselves,
they chose not to vote for Harris, and either stayed home or
threw their vote away on a third party vanity candidate like
Stein or whoever the libertarians put up (or the evergreen
Vermin Supreme), out of a desire for Trump to get et elected and
burn it all down so that it can be rebuilt from the ground up.
Bluntly, those people are fools. They think revolutions are
romantic and imagine themselves attop the Parisian barricades
or storming the Bastille, but I can guarantee you that they've
never seen a revolution or its aftermath up close and personal.

But even if a few million more in California, New York, and
Massachusetts had showed up and voted, giving Harris the popular
vote, it wouldn't have made a difference: those states were
going to go for her regardless. Similarly a few hippies in
Missoula, Montana or Laramie, Wyoming voting for her just aren't
enough to flip either of those states blue.

In the end, the only thing that matters for electing the US
president is the electoral college. Unfortunately, this sad
reality disincentivizes voting for lots of people outside of
swing states: adjusted for population, a vote in Idaho (pop ~2m,
4 EC votes) has almost almost twice as much impact towards the
eventual outcome as a vote in California (pop ~40m, 54 EC).
Combined with our winner-takes-all, first-past-the-fence-post
election formats, this leads to extreme outcomes at the margins
in the presidential and senate elections, while ridiculous
levels of gerrymandering mean that the political makeup of the
House of Representatives does not accurately reflect that of the
population. And don't get me started on Biden not honoring his
pledge to be a one-term president and not seek re-election.

When it comes to the electoral college specifically, the unquiet
ghost of America's original sin, slavery, continues to cast its
long, hideous shadow more than 400 years after the first
enslaved Africans were dragged to these shores through the
middle passage.

- Dan C.
Subcommandante XDelta
2025-03-12 20:54:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
The reality is that _most_ Americans can't stand the guy.  It's
just that the way that our weird (and arguably messed up)
electoral system works that allowed a minority to vote him into
office.
In 2016 he did not get the most votes (he got 63M
while Hilary got 66M).
But in 2024 he did get the most votes (he got 77M while
Kamala got 75M).
Mr. sofa got 91M and 87M respectively in those two elections.
Arne
2024: https://www.gregpalast.com/trump-lost-vote-suppression-won/

2016: https://www.gregpalast.com/election-stolen-heres/

2026: https://www.gregpalast.com/how-trump-gop-fixed-2026-yes-2026/

See also:

Thom Hartmann: "The Hidden History of the War on Voting" (2020)

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/617256/the-hidden-history-of-the-war-on-voting-by-thom-hartmann/
Robert A. Brooks
2025-03-11 01:43:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Cross
Trust me, to our European friends reading this, no matter how
upset you are over this actions, those of us who stand opposed
to him right here in the US are even more so.
Well said!
--
-- Rob
Scott Dorsey
2025-03-11 23:05:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert A. Brooks
Post by Dan Cross
Trust me, to our European friends reading this, no matter how
upset you are over this actions, those of us who stand opposed
to him right here in the US are even more so.
Well said!
And not only that, we can't even get the Lindt salty licorice chocolate
bars.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Chris Townley
2025-03-11 23:21:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Robert A. Brooks
Post by Dan Cross
Trust me, to our European friends reading this, no matter how
upset you are over this actions, those of us who stand opposed
to him right here in the US are even more so.
Well said!
And not only that, we can't even get the Lindt salty licorice chocolate
bars.
--scott
But you have buttered up our chocolate bars
Harrumph!
--
Chris
Arne Vajhøj
2025-03-10 23:51:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Froble
But the pain is on it's way.
Ontario is adding a 25% surcharge to electricity sold across the border.
:-)
The stock markets are tanking ....
Perhaps it's time to consider recalling Trump?
There is no option for recalling the president in the US.

The options in the constitution are:
* impeachment (simple majority house + 2/3 majority senate)
* 25th amendment (VP + majority of cabinet ministers, and if
the president appeal 2/3 majority of both house and senate)

And with current house, senate, cabinet and VP then neither
of those seem likely.

Arne
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2025-03-11 01:03:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
There is no option for recalling the president in the US.
* impeachment (simple majority house + 2/3 majority senate)
* 25th amendment (VP + majority of cabinet ministers, and if
the president appeal 2/3 majority of both house and senate)
Things seem so much easier in Parliamentary systems, don’t they: it just
takes a vote of no confidence in Parliament to bring down the Government.
Arne Vajhøj
2025-03-11 01:41:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Arne Vajhøj
There is no option for recalling the president in the US.
* impeachment (simple majority house + 2/3 majority senate)
* 25th amendment (VP + majority of cabinet ministers, and if
the president appeal 2/3 majority of both house and senate)
Things seem so much easier in Parliamentary systems, don’t they: it just
takes a vote of no confidence in Parliament to bring down the Government.
It is easier to get rid of a prime minister in that system.

But there is also a flip side. It can be difficult to find
a PM. After the election in Sweden in 2018 it took 4 months
to agree on a PM/government. After the election in the
Netherlands in 2023 it took 6 months. After the election
in Belgium in 2024 it took 8 months. Given how the US
congress typical (recent years) handle budget and debt limit
increase, then I suspect that if the US congress elected
the US president then the position would be empty half the time.

Arne
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2025-03-11 01:50:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Things seem so much easier in Parliamentary systems, don’t they: it
just takes a vote of no confidence in Parliament to bring down the
Government.
It is easier to get rid of a prime minister in that system.
But there is also a flip side. It can be difficult to find a PM. After
the election in Sweden in 2018 it took 4 months to agree on a
PM/government. After the election in the Netherlands in 2023 it took 6
months. After the election in Belgium in 2024 it took 8 months.
All using proportional representation? Didn’t one prior Belgian election
spend all except the last few months of the entire term trying to come to
a coalition deal?

Actually I think proportional representation is wonderful. We adopted it
here in NZ, based on the German system. I think the longest it took us to
form a Government was 6 weeks (from the first election under the new
system, in 1996); typically it takes more like 3 weeks.
Arne Vajhøj
2025-03-11 01:54:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Things seem so much easier in Parliamentary systems, don’t they: it
just takes a vote of no confidence in Parliament to bring down the
Government.
It is easier to get rid of a prime minister in that system.
But there is also a flip side. It can be difficult to find a PM. After
the election in Sweden in 2018 it took 4 months to agree on a
PM/government. After the election in the Netherlands in 2023 it took 6
months. After the election in Belgium in 2024 it took 8 months.
All using proportional representation? Didn’t one prior Belgian election
spend all except the last few months of the entire term trying to come to
a coalition deal?
Actually I think proportional representation is wonderful. We adopted it
here in NZ, based on the German system. I think the longest it took us to
form a Government was 6 weeks (from the first election under the new
system, in 1996); typically it takes more like 3 weeks.
Median is not bad in all countries I am aware of.

But some countries has had some bad outliers.

Arne
Camiel Vanderhoeven
2025-03-11 13:01:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
All using proportional representation? Didn’t one prior Belgian election
spend all except the last few months of the entire term trying to come to
a coalition deal?
Not that bad. The formation of Di Rupo's cabinet in 2011 took 541 days
(for a four-year term).

Camiel
Marc Van Dyck
2025-03-12 09:24:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
All using proportional representation? Didn’t one prior Belgian election
spend all except the last few months of the entire term trying to come to
a coalition deal?
Wasn't THAT bad. Formation took some 500 days, entire term is 5 years.
--
Marc Van Dyck
Simon Clubley
2025-03-11 13:49:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
It is easier to get rid of a prime minister in that system.
But there is also a flip side. It can be difficult to find
a PM. After the election in Sweden in 2018 it took 4 months
to agree on a PM/government. After the election in the
Netherlands in 2023 it took 6 months. After the election
in Belgium in 2024 it took 8 months. Given how the US
congress typical (recent years) handle budget and debt limit
increase, then I suspect that if the US congress elected
the US president then the position would be empty half the time.
I don't know if this applies to other Parliamentary systems, but
here in the UK, the Prime Minister has to go to Parliament once
a week and answer questions from opposition leaders. In addition,
some normal MPs also get the chance to directly ask the PM questions
and to make the PM justify decisions that they have made.

I wonder if Mr Trump would ever go before Congress once a week and
answer questions put directly to him by the Democrats ? Somehow,
I suspect the answer is no. :-)

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Robert A. Brooks
2025-03-11 14:07:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
I wonder if Mr Trump would ever go before Congress once a week and
answer questions put directly to him by the Democrats ? Somehow,
I suspect the answer is no. :-)
Given his propensity to not just shade the truth, but flat-out lie,
would you trust his answer on anything?
--
-- Rob
Dan Cross
2025-03-11 14:48:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
It is easier to get rid of a prime minister in that system.
But there is also a flip side. It can be difficult to find
a PM. After the election in Sweden in 2018 it took 4 months
to agree on a PM/government. After the election in the
Netherlands in 2023 it took 6 months. After the election
in Belgium in 2024 it took 8 months. Given how the US
congress typical (recent years) handle budget and debt limit
increase, then I suspect that if the US congress elected
the US president then the position would be empty half the time.
I don't know if this applies to other Parliamentary systems, but
here in the UK, the Prime Minister has to go to Parliament once
a week and answer questions from opposition leaders. In addition,
some normal MPs also get the chance to directly ask the PM questions
and to make the PM justify decisions that they have made.
I wonder if Mr Trump would ever go before Congress once a week and
answer questions put directly to him by the Democrats ? Somehow,
I suspect the answer is no. :-)
As an American, I've always found it fun to watch British
parliamentary proceedings: generally much livelier than our own
congress and infinitely more entertaining. I miss Dennis
Skinner; his quips at Black Rod before the state opening of
parliament in the House of Lords were always chuckle-worthy.
"I shall miss you, Dennis."

For many years our US legislature was rather more genteel than
yours, with at least a veneer of camaraderie across the isle.
Senators and house members referred to each other as, "my good
friend from the state of such-and-such" or "my esteemed
colleague" and so forth. I doubt much of that was sincere, but
there was at least an attempt at collegiallity. But with
whackadoos like Marjoie Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert, or Matt
Gaetz in office now, I fear those days are well and truly behind
us. And we don't even have a dry British sense of humor to
compensate.

Trump turns everything he touches into a clown show, so if he
were to appear before Congress fielding questions from Democrats
he would just turn it into another opportunity for
self-aggrandizing and petty name-calling. The man is a boor; no
need to give him yet another platform.

- Dan C.
Scott Dorsey
2025-03-09 01:03:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Simon Clubley
I wonder how long it is going to be before nobody wants to buy _anything_
from a US company given just how toxic and untrustworthy the US has
become over the last month ? :-(
Hey! It ain't the USA. It's Trump and his minions.
But, yeah, don't patronize them. The idiots that voted for him will equire much
pain before they realize just what idiots they are. He lies to them, and they
like it.
Unfortunately, as Simon has suggested might happen, we have Europeans
boycotting American products over the bad decisions made by our
government. I just had a $6k order from my European dealer cancelled.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Dave Froble
2025-03-09 21:27:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Simon Clubley
I wonder how long it is going to be before nobody wants to buy _anything_
from a US company given just how toxic and untrustworthy the US has
become over the last month ? :-(
Hey! It ain't the USA. It's Trump and his minions.
But, yeah, don't patronize them. The idiots that voted for him will equire much
pain before they realize just what idiots they are. He lies to them, and they
like it.
Unfortunately, as Simon has suggested might happen, we have Europeans
boycotting American products over the bad decisions made by our
government. I just had a $6k order from my European dealer cancelled.
--scott
Good! The idiots will require much pain before they turn on Donald.
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Simon Clubley
2025-03-10 18:28:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Simon Clubley
I wonder how long it is going to be before nobody wants to buy _anything_
from a US company given just how toxic and untrustworthy the US has
become over the last month ? :-(
Hey! It ain't the USA. It's Trump and his minions.
But, yeah, don't patronize them. The idiots that voted for him will equire much
pain before they realize just what idiots they are. He lies to them, and they
like it.
Unfortunately, as Simon has suggested might happen, we have Europeans
boycotting American products over the bad decisions made by our
government. I just had a $6k order from my European dealer cancelled.
--scott
Good! The idiots will require much pain before they turn on Donald.
Unfortunately, it is a lot easier to be fooled than it is to admit
(even to yourself) you have been fooled.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Simon Clubley
2025-03-10 18:27:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Simon Clubley
I wonder how long it is going to be before nobody wants to buy _anything_
from a US company given just how toxic and untrustworthy the US has
become over the last month ? :-(
Hey! It ain't the USA. It's Trump and his minions.
But, yeah, don't patronize them. The idiots that voted for him will equire much
pain before they realize just what idiots they are. He lies to them, and they
like it.
Unfortunately, as Simon has suggested might happen, we have Europeans
boycotting American products over the bad decisions made by our
government. I just had a $6k order from my European dealer cancelled.
--scott
Sorry to hear that. :-( As always, it is the innocent decent people
who get hurt by these stupid power games.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
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