Discussion:
VSI OpenVMS Community License
(too old to reply)
Chris Townley
2024-03-26 14:26:51 UTC
Permalink
Just received 2 mails from VSI

End of Alpha and I64 community licenses

Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers

Or there is an Ambassador program

Not sure what to think yet...
--
Chris
Chris Townley
2024-03-26 14:37:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Townley
Just received 2 mails from VSI
End of Alpha and I64 community licenses
Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers
Or there is an Ambassador program
Not sure what to think yet...
Actually I am not surprised. There have been a lot of VMS newbies
recently on the VSI forum, asking endless basic questions without even
trying to look in the manuals, and a fair number of responses from both
VSI and the community

However it is a real shame, as such people could well move into VMS
jobs, and spread the word
--
Chris
Simon Clubley
2024-03-26 18:36:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Townley
Post by Chris Townley
Just received 2 mails from VSI
End of Alpha and I64 community licenses
Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers
Or there is an Ambassador program
Not sure what to think yet...
Actually I am not surprised. There have been a lot of VMS newbies
recently on the VSI forum, asking endless basic questions without even
trying to look in the manuals, and a fair number of responses from both
VSI and the community
However it is a real shame, as such people could well move into VMS
jobs, and spread the word
Nothing that I am about to say changes the fact this is VSI's product
and it is for them to decide who can get access to it and under what
conditions. There is no legitimate justification for any thinking that
we are "somehow" entitled to get free or low-cost access to anything
that VSI produces.

Having said that, IMHO, while I can understand some of the thinking based
on what I am seeing in the forum that Chris references above, this is a
really big mistake for VSI to do this at this point, when the product set
is not yet complete for x86-64 VMS (ie: BASIC).

If they want to discontinue free access to Alpha and IA64, then it should
also have been done with some notice to any new people wanting to sign up
today (as was done by HPE with VAX/VMS) and not simply hard-reject any
newcomers as they have decided to do. On the plus side, they are implementing
a HPE-style incremental phase-out for existing community members, which
is good to see.

Based on some of the things I am reading in the forum, I can well understand
why a pre-built image is a highly desirable option for some in VSI, but it's
not clear if a traditional ISO image will continue to be offered (it appears
it _may_ not be), which would be a mistake.

This ISO would give people practice with configuring VMS from the ground up
and give them exposure to the issues involved when managing VMS in a
production environment.

It is also not clear if additional Layered Products will be available for
download and installation into this pre-built image.

One final thought: when the licence in this pre-built image expires, can
we simply download a new licence into our existing pre-built image or do
we need to download a new pre-built image every time, then need to customise
this new pre-built image from scratch once agin ?

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Simon Clubley
2024-03-26 18:43:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Townley
Post by Chris Townley
Just received 2 mails from VSI
End of Alpha and I64 community licenses
Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers
Or there is an Ambassador program
Not sure what to think yet...
Actually I am not surprised. There have been a lot of VMS newbies
recently on the VSI forum, asking endless basic questions without even
trying to look in the manuals, and a fair number of responses from both
VSI and the community
However it is a real shame, as such people could well move into VMS
jobs, and spread the word
One further thought: I wonder what this means for systems like Eisner,
which are running on VSI time-limited licences ?

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
motk
2024-03-26 23:15:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
One further thought: I wonder what this means for systems like Eisner,
which are running on VSI time-limited licences ?
Unless they jump through hoops for the Ambassador license tier, or run
the the naughty C program that generates keys, they're dead. And by design.
--
motk
Robert A. Brooks
2024-03-27 00:06:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
One further thought: I wonder what this means for systems like Eisner,
which are running on VSI time-limited licences ?
As long as I'm at VSI (and I don't plan on leaving any time soon), I'll make
sure that EISNER is taken care of.
--
--- Rob
Chris Townley
2024-03-27 00:18:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert A. Brooks
Post by Simon Clubley
One further thought: I wonder what this means for systems like Eisner,
which are running on VSI time-limited licences ?
As long as I'm at VSI (and I don't plan on leaving any time soon), I'll
make sure that EISNER is taken care of.
Not that I have used it for years, but many thanks!
--
Chris
Single Stage to Orbit
2024-03-27 00:24:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert A. Brooks
Post by Simon Clubley
One further thought: I wonder what this means for systems like
Eisner, which are running on VSI time-limited licences ?
As long as I'm at VSI (and I don't plan on leaving any time soon),
I'll make sure that EISNER is taken care of.
I appreciate that, thanks.
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens
John Dallman
2024-03-27 09:24:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert A. Brooks
As long as I'm at VSI (and I don't plan on leaving any time soon),
I'll make sure that EISNER is taken care of.
Good show, sir!

John
Simon Clubley
2024-03-27 13:45:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert A. Brooks
Post by Simon Clubley
One further thought: I wonder what this means for systems like Eisner,
which are running on VSI time-limited licences ?
As long as I'm at VSI (and I don't plan on leaving any time soon), I'll make
sure that EISNER is taken care of.
Thank you Rob.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Richard Jordan
2024-03-26 15:29:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Townley
Just received 2 mails from VSI
End of Alpha and I64 community licenses
Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers
Or there is an Ambassador program
Not sure what to think yet...
Losing the Alpha option is my real pain point. Both my hobbyist systems
are Alphas (DS10 and PWS-600au).

The fact that they are summarily rejecting already submitted (but not
yet approved) requests quite frankly hurts.
David Goodwin
2024-03-26 18:12:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Jordan
Post by Chris Townley
Just received 2 mails from VSI
End of Alpha and I64 community licenses
Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers
Or there is an Ambassador program
Not sure what to think yet...
Losing the Alpha option is my real pain point. Both my hobbyist systems
are Alphas (DS10 and PWS-600au).
The fact that they are summarily rejecting already submitted (but not
yet approved) requests quite frankly hurts.
I could perhaps handle loosing Alpha if we weren't also loosing x86.

A fresh vmdk once a year is not an acceptable solution. I'm not setting
up a fresh VM every year, its not worth the effort.
Single Stage to Orbit
2024-03-27 00:17:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Goodwin
Losing the Alpha option is my real pain point.  Both my hobbyist
systems
are Alphas (DS10 and PWS-600au).
The fact that they are summarily rejecting already submitted (but not
yet approved) requests quite frankly hurts.
I could perhaps handle loosing Alpha if we weren't also loosing x86.
A fresh vmdk once a year is not an acceptable solution. I'm not
setting up a fresh VM every year, its not worth the effort.
THey didn't say anything about closing the VSI service panel?
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens
David Goodwin
2024-03-27 00:32:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Post by David Goodwin
Losing the Alpha option is my real pain point.  Both my hobbyist
systems
are Alphas (DS10 and PWS-600au).
The fact that they are summarily rejecting already submitted (but not
yet approved) requests quite frankly hurts.
I could perhaps handle loosing Alpha if we weren't also loosing x86.
A fresh vmdk once a year is not an acceptable solution. I'm not
setting up a fresh VM every year, its not worth the effort.
THey didn't say anything about closing the VSI service panel?
The email I got says:
"How This Affects You

Your current license is valid through August 22, 2024. In the next
several days, we will send you your credentials for accessing our
Service Portal where you will get your replacement license (in August)
and software. On the day when your license expires, your access to the
Service Portal will be revoked."

So yeah, loosing access to the VSI service portal and as far as I can
see they will not be issuing standalone licenses - just refreshing the
VM once a year. Basically that student kit they had before, but now on
x86.
motk
2024-03-27 00:42:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Goodwin
So yeah, loosing access to the VSI service portal and as far as I can
see they will not be issuing standalone licenses - just refreshing the
VM once a year. Basically that student kit they had before, but now on
x86.
Yeah, it's dead Jim.
--
motk
Single Stage to Orbit
2024-03-27 01:03:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Goodwin
Post by Single Stage to Orbit
THey didn't say anything about closing the VSI service panel?
"How This Affects You
Your current license is valid through August 22, 2024. In the next
several days, we will send you your credentials for accessing our
Service Portal where you will get your replacement license (in
August) and software. On the day when your license expires, your
access to the Service Portal will be revoked."
So yeah, loosing access to the VSI service portal and as far as I can
see they will not be issuing standalone licenses - just refreshing
the VM once a year. Basically that student kit they had before, but
now on x86.
F**k. :-(
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens
Single Stage to Orbit
2024-03-26 18:09:25 UTC
Permalink
Losing the Alpha option is my real pain point.  Both my hobbyist
systems are Alphas (DS10 and PWS-600au).
The fact that they are summarily rejecting already submitted (but not
yet approved) requests quite frankly hurts.
They said they would be issuing final licences in 2025. But they don't
mention if they are open ended or not. They need to confirm that.
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens
David Goodwin
2024-03-26 19:22:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Losing the Alpha option is my real pain point.  Both my hobbyist
systems are Alphas (DS10 and PWS-600au).
The fact that they are summarily rejecting already submitted (but not
yet approved) requests quite frankly hurts.
They said they would be issuing final licences in 2025. But they don't
mention if they are open ended or not. They need to confirm that.
I think it is very very safe to assume they are not open-ended. They're
giving Alpha and Itanium hobbyists a year to move off of OpenVMS.
Single Stage to Orbit
2024-03-27 00:16:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Goodwin
Post by Single Stage to Orbit
They said they would be issuing final licences in 2025. But they
don't mention if they are open ended or not. They need to confirm
that.
I think it is very very safe to assume they are not open-ended.
They're giving Alpha and Itanium hobbyists a year to move off of
OpenVMS.
I think some people would want to hang onto their VAX/Alpha
installations. Don't really care about TItanic though.
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens
David Goodwin
2024-03-27 00:37:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Post by David Goodwin
Post by Single Stage to Orbit
They said they would be issuing final licences in 2025. But they
don't mention if they are open ended or not. They need to confirm
that.
I think it is very very safe to assume they are not open-ended.
They're giving Alpha and Itanium hobbyists a year to move off of
OpenVMS.
I think some people would want to hang onto their VAX/Alpha
installations. Don't really care about TItanic though.
I'm sure they would, but VAX hobbyists were not given this option and I
see no indication that Alpha will be any different. I guess hobbyists
who want to keep their Alpha installations running now have the same
options available to them as VAX hobbyists.
Chris Townley
2024-03-27 01:00:05 UTC
Permalink
I wonder if we will get a renewal of the X86 PAK, which expires on Monday
--
Chris
Bill deWindt
2024-03-27 02:40:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Townley
I wonder if we will get a renewal of the X86 PAK, which expires on Monday
I just noticed that a little earlier Myself on my lone X86 instance. If
it doesn't guess I'll just trash that VM and allocate the resources
elsewhere. Pity...

-Bill
Matthew R. Wilson
2024-03-26 21:21:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Jordan
Post by Chris Townley
End of Alpha and I64 community licenses
Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers
Losing the Alpha option is my real pain point. Both my hobbyist systems
are Alphas (DS10 and PWS-600au).
The fact that they are summarily rejecting already submitted (but not
yet approved) requests quite frankly hurts.
The loss of Alpha (and Integrity, although far fewer people collected
Itanium hardware) is about as relevant/damaging as the loss of the VAX
hobbyist program: almost not at all.

It's trivial to generate your own licenses a number of ways, so you can
continue to use it in perpetuity. And since it was already pretty much
the "honor system" to not use your hobbyist licenses for commercial
purposes, I have no ethical or moral qualms with the idea of using
OpenVMS on VAX or Alpha for personal self-education and history of
computing hobbyist purposes.

The access to the software itself was already at the point where, like
VAX, it seemed frozen in time for historical systems. Even though VSI
is, to my understanding, providing occasional updates to commercial
Alpha customers, the version available on the community SFTP server has
been the same for quite a while. Which is fine: VMS on Alpha is mature,
stable software and for most permitted uses (hobbyist non-commercial
use), I wouldn't expect to drop a system out on the open internet, so
even a lack of security patches hasn't worried me.

Anyway, hypothetically my VAX and Alpha could continue to run for my own
fun for many years to come, and I almost feel like while of course they
can't say it / encourage it, VSI is unceremoniously dropping the Alpha
and Integrity community programs because they know the enthusiast
community will take care of themselves and hush-hush wink-wink while
keeping it going behind the scenes for those who are really interested.

The loss of real installation media and LP kits for x86, though, is the
big loss here. While the relevance of VMS for x86 was already
questionable for anything beyond being a lifeline for companies still
stuck on VMS for one reason or another (from a hobbyist perspective, a
ton of the fun software never even made the jump from Alpha to Itanium,
let alone from Itanium to x86), it was fun to imagine a potential uptick
in interest in VMS due to being able to run (somewhat) easily on
hardware everyone has. The idea of downloading a pre-installed OS disk
image is of zero interest to me, so VMS for x86 will just fade back into
the abyss from which it recently emerged.

I get why VSI doesn't want to bother with any of this, though. Their
business perspective makes sense. Nothing is going to generate new
business interest in OpenVMS. No software company is going to make a new
product for OpenVMS. The entire thing only exists to keep customers who
are stuck on it going, and at the moment there is still enough money
there to sustain a business on providing that legacy system to those
companies. Even the best community program in the world isn't going to
change the fact that greenfield development on OpenVMS just isn't going
to happen. Customers are using it to keep running their line-of-business
critical in-house BASIC programs that store data in Rdb, etc. So why
would VSI care about trying to make stuff that only hobbyists want work?

I do find it kind of funny, though, that apparently they thought lots of
open source projects would be inspired to put time and effort into
getting their code to work on VMS x86, a closed-source, proprietary
operating system, just because a non-commercial, non-perpetual,
hit-or-miss-whether-the-form-to-request-it-will-even-work-and-if-you'll-
ever-make-it-to-the-top-of-the-queue was available. If that's what they
thought the benefit of the community program was -- that they could get
other people to do work for free for them to turn around and use as
justification for customers to stay on their proprietary platform and
keep paying them to move forward on VMS for x86 -- then yeah, of course
that vision of the community program failed!

Alas, the history of computing is littered with significant, important
historical software fading away into the sunset because the current
ownership is responsible for profits, not historical preservation and
community sustainability. The good news in this case is that VMS across
all of its important architectures is very well preserved and we don't
need VSI or anyone else to keep it going among those who are truly
interested and passionate.

If any of the above seems overly harsh or pessimistic... well, yeah, I'm
reacting to disappointing news and am certainly in a mental state
reflecting that.

But I'm also a realist and this ain't my first rodeo.

-Matthew
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-03-26 23:04:25 UTC
Permalink
... it was fun to imagine a potential uptick
in interest in VMS due to being able to run (somewhat) easily on
hardware everyone has.
You always could, with SIMH.
David Goodwin
2024-03-26 18:44:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Townley
Just received 2 mails from VSI
End of Alpha and I64 community licenses
Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers
Or there is an Ambassador program
Not sure what to think yet...
I think the community license/hobbyist program has officially ended -
the x86 vmdks are something entirely different and a continuation of
that student thing they were doing before.

Going to be interesting to see what sort of damage this does to OpenVMS.
I suspect their "community engagement" is going to pretty much disappear
entirely as a result of this which may put the long-term future of
OpenVMS at risk.

Could do some significant damage to any open-source packages that aren't
being directly maintained by VSI themselves too. And not just on Alpha
and Itanium - I don't think I'd bother porting/maintaining stuff if its
not going to be used outside of perhaps a few commercial users even if I
could use the Ambassador program to do it at no cost.

And for that matter, what exactly is the purpose of the Ambassador
program? Why should I want to "bring value to VMS Software" when VMS
software has no interest in bringing value to the community? It sounds
an awful lot like an unpaid job to me, especially with the requirement
to participate in meetings and "report on your work in the ecosystem".
motk
2024-03-26 23:18:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Goodwin
And for that matter, what exactly is the purpose of the Ambassador
program? Why should I want to "bring value to VMS Software" when VMS
software has no interest in bringing value to the community? It sounds
an awful lot like an unpaid job to me, especially with the requirement
to participate in meetings and "report on your work in the ecosystem".
What ecosystem? A newsgroup? A few barely-maintained websites? The VSI
forums, where Mister Moderator clomps in at the slightest hint that
people may not be devoting their free time Generating Commerical Value
for VSI?

Ooooh, I'm cross. Vexxed, even.
--
motk
Simon Clubley
2024-03-27 13:11:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by motk
Post by David Goodwin
And for that matter, what exactly is the purpose of the Ambassador
program? Why should I want to "bring value to VMS Software" when VMS
software has no interest in bringing value to the community? It sounds
an awful lot like an unpaid job to me, especially with the requirement
to participate in meetings and "report on your work in the ecosystem".
What ecosystem? A newsgroup? A few barely-maintained websites? The VSI
forums, where Mister Moderator clomps in at the slightest hint that
people may not be devoting their free time Generating Commerical Value
for VSI?
VSI management are either out of touch with reality (which based on past
experience is always possible) and are overrating their own importance,
or this is VSI moving to a managed decline model (where they extract as
much money as they can from a captive audience) without outright saying so.

I wonder if this is something driven by Darya or if any part of this will
change when she takes over (because she might actually disagree with it).
Post by motk
Ooooh, I'm cross. Vexxed, even.
You sound like that character from The Librarians. :-)

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Arne Vajhøj
2024-03-27 13:39:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Goodwin
Post by Chris Townley
Just received 2 mails from VSI
End of Alpha and I64 community licenses
Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers
Or there is an Ambassador program
Not sure what to think yet...
I think the community license/hobbyist program has officially ended -
the x86 vmdks are something entirely different and a continuation of
that student thing they were doing before.
Going to be interesting to see what sort of damage this does to OpenVMS.
I suspect their "community engagement" is going to pretty much disappear
entirely as a result of this which may put the long-term future of
OpenVMS at risk.
Could do some significant damage to any open-source packages that aren't
being directly maintained by VSI themselves too. And not just on Alpha
and Itanium - I don't think I'd bother porting/maintaining stuff if its
not going to be used outside of perhaps a few commercial users even if I
could use the Ambassador program to do it at no cost.
And for that matter, what exactly is the purpose of the Ambassador
program? Why should I want to "bring value to VMS Software" when VMS
software has no interest in bringing value to the community? It sounds
an awful lot like an unpaid job to me, especially with the requirement
to participate in meetings and "report on your work in the ecosystem".
I think that is the main point.

That some hobbyists are sorry that they can no longer run
VMS on their 25 year old Alpha's is not in itself a valid
business concern for VSI.

But I believe that VSI (and before them HPE and HP) has
had significant benefits from the CL program (previously
the hobbyist program).

A huge part of the open source available for VMS was not
created/ported by VSI/HPE/HP but by hobbyists.

The availability of open source is critical for VMS
future. To modernize the interface and integration for legacy
systems. And maybe some day to actually implement new systems.

It will be a lot more expensive for VSI to do all that
work themselves than administering an attractive CL program.

And I also believe that VSI has had huge benefits from the
CL community for the x86-64 port as "unpaid testers of
FT versions". I know that the CL community has found a
significant number of compiler bugs. And I assume that
VSI paying customers appreciate that they did not get to
find those bugs in their environment.

The VMS community is highly skewed:
* there is a very small group doing most of the contributions -
porting open source, testing FT releases, answering questions
from beginners etc.
* there is a small group of new people that want to
learn VMS
* there is a huge group that like to run VMS as a hobby, lurks
around in various forums but rarely contribute
* there is a mid size group of whiners that does not run VMS
at all but like to hear themself talk about what VSI should
do in 2024 or what DEC should have done in 1984 or whatever

The idea behind the changes seems to be that:
- the first group will join VMS ambassador program
- the second group will be OK with the new CL program
- the third group does not matter

But I don't think the first group will join VMS ambassador program.
Well - some will. But a lot will not. They don't like the name.
They don't like the commitment. They don't like what happened
to the third group.

Yesterday I guessed that half of the first group would join
VMS ambassador program, but based on feedback since then that guess
seems too high today.

The changes does not make business sense for VSI.

Arne
Simon Clubley
2024-03-27 14:06:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
The changes does not make business sense for VSI.
Short-term or long-term business sense ? There's a difference.

Oh, and as for those "whiners" (as you call them) no longer running VMS,
perhaps they might be motivated to do so if the situation was different,
but maybe, as things stand, they can't be motivated to do so, and spend
their own time on other newly-interesting projects instead as their
interests have changed.

They should not be dismissed simply because they no longer run VMS, but
instead finding out _why_ they no longer run it could be useful in its
own right.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Arne Vajhøj
2024-03-26 20:01:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Townley
Just received 2 mails from VSI
End of Alpha and I64 community licenses
Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers
Or there is an Ambassador program
Not sure what to think yet...
(warning: this is going to be a long rant)

First announcement link:
https://vmssoftware.com/about/news/2024-03-25-community-license-update/

The changes seems to be:
* student license program is dropped
* community license program is changed
- not available for Alpha and Itanium, only available for x86-64
- not available as license+kit, only available as preinstalled disk image
* new VMS ambassador license
- with obligations to contribute
- license for all 3 platforms
- license+kit model

Reasons given are to solve problems:
* too much work managing licenses
* too little contribution back

I don't think the changes will solve the problems.

It is obvious that VSI has been struggling with the community licenses,
but VSI will still have to do commercial licenses, ISV licenses and
the new VMS ambassador licenses. If that process is not automated, then
it will stille be hassle.

And I suspect that the change will reduce community contributions not
increase them.

In reality the changes could also be described differently:
* student license is being renamed to community license and
platform upgraded from Alpha to x86-64
* community license is being renamed to VMS ambassador license
and with a specific requirement for contributions

But the student license was never popular as far as I can tell
and the VMS ambassador requirements will scare people.

So my best guess is that if we look at 1000 communityt license users,
then we will see:

25 that has been contributing and will switch to VMS ambassador license
25 that has been contributing but will drop out because VMS ambassador
license is not for them
400 that has been running VMS on Alpha and will drop out
100 that are oldtimers interested in VMS on x86-64 and will switch to
the new community license
200 that are oldtimers interested in VMS on x86-64 and will drop out
because they don't like images
250 that are newcomers interested in VMS x86-64 and will switch to the
new community license

or:

25 VMS ambassador licenses
350 new community license
625 drop outs

with:

50% reduction in contributors
no change in number of newcomers needing a lot of handhelding with basics

But I could be wrong, but that is what I predict.

And that is pretty bad!!!!

Arne
David Goodwin
2024-03-26 20:13:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Chris Townley
Just received 2 mails from VSI
End of Alpha and I64 community licenses
Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers
Or there is an Ambassador program
Not sure what to think yet...
(warning: this is going to be a long rant)
https://vmssoftware.com/about/news/2024-03-25-community-license-update/
* student license program is dropped
* community license program is changed
- not available for Alpha and Itanium, only available for x86-64
- not available as license+kit, only available as preinstalled disk image
* new VMS ambassador license
- with obligations to contribute
- license for all 3 platforms
- license+kit model
* too much work managing licenses
* too little contribution back
I don't think the changes will solve the problems.
It is obvious that VSI has been struggling with the community licenses,
but VSI will still have to do commercial licenses, ISV licenses and
the new VMS ambassador licenses. If that process is not automated, then
it will stille be hassle.
And I suspect that the change will reduce community contributions not
increase them.
* student license is being renamed to community license and
platform upgraded from Alpha to x86-64
* community license is being renamed to VMS ambassador license
and with a specific requirement for contributions
But the student license was never popular as far as I can tell
and the VMS ambassador requirements will scare people.
So my best guess is that if we look at 1000 communityt license users,
25 that has been contributing and will switch to VMS ambassador license
25 that has been contributing but will drop out because VMS ambassador
license is not for them
400 that has been running VMS on Alpha and will drop out
100 that are oldtimers interested in VMS on x86-64 and will switch to
the new community license
200 that are oldtimers interested in VMS on x86-64 and will drop out
because they don't like images
250 that are newcomers interested in VMS x86-64 and will switch to the
new community license
25 VMS ambassador licenses
350 new community license
625 drop outs
50% reduction in contributors
no change in number of newcomers needing a lot of handhelding with basics
But I could be wrong, but that is what I predict.
And that is pretty bad!!!!
I wonder why community licenses were never automated. Why was there ever
a queue? Why did it need someone to do things to process it?

Surely they could have just had a form that added a row to a database
and then sent an email. Would have been a lot easier than all of this.
Chris Townley
2024-03-26 20:20:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Goodwin
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Chris Townley
Just received 2 mails from VSI
End of Alpha and I64 community licenses
Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers
Or there is an Ambassador program
Not sure what to think yet...
(warning: this is going to be a long rant)
https://vmssoftware.com/about/news/2024-03-25-community-license-update/
* student license program is dropped
* community license program is changed
- not available for Alpha and Itanium, only available for x86-64
- not available as license+kit, only available as preinstalled disk image
* new VMS ambassador license
- with obligations to contribute
- license for all 3 platforms
- license+kit model
* too much work managing licenses
* too little contribution back
I don't think the changes will solve the problems.
It is obvious that VSI has been struggling with the community licenses,
but VSI will still have to do commercial licenses, ISV licenses and
the new VMS ambassador licenses. If that process is not automated, then
it will stille be hassle.
And I suspect that the change will reduce community contributions not
increase them.
* student license is being renamed to community license and
platform upgraded from Alpha to x86-64
* community license is being renamed to VMS ambassador license
and with a specific requirement for contributions
But the student license was never popular as far as I can tell
and the VMS ambassador requirements will scare people.
So my best guess is that if we look at 1000 communityt license users,
25 that has been contributing and will switch to VMS ambassador license
25 that has been contributing but will drop out because VMS ambassador
license is not for them
400 that has been running VMS on Alpha and will drop out
100 that are oldtimers interested in VMS on x86-64 and will switch to
the new community license
200 that are oldtimers interested in VMS on x86-64 and will drop out
because they don't like images
250 that are newcomers interested in VMS x86-64 and will switch to the
new community license
25 VMS ambassador licenses
350 new community license
625 drop outs
50% reduction in contributors
no change in number of newcomers needing a lot of handhelding with basics
But I could be wrong, but that is what I predict.
And that is pretty bad!!!!
I wonder why community licenses were never automated. Why was there ever
a queue? Why did it need someone to do things to process it?
Surely they could have just had a form that added a row to a database
and then sent an email. Would have been a lot easier than all of this.
Especially as the don't send out the X86 licenses - just one file on the
portal
--
Chris
Dave Froble
2024-03-26 21:05:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Goodwin
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Chris Townley
Just received 2 mails from VSI
End of Alpha and I64 community licenses
Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers
Or there is an Ambassador program
Not sure what to think yet...
(warning: this is going to be a long rant)
https://vmssoftware.com/about/news/2024-03-25-community-license-update/
* student license program is dropped
* community license program is changed
- not available for Alpha and Itanium, only available for x86-64
- not available as license+kit, only available as preinstalled disk image
* new VMS ambassador license
- with obligations to contribute
- license for all 3 platforms
- license+kit model
* too much work managing licenses
* too little contribution back
I don't think the changes will solve the problems.
It is obvious that VSI has been struggling with the community licenses,
but VSI will still have to do commercial licenses, ISV licenses and
the new VMS ambassador licenses. If that process is not automated, then
it will stille be hassle.
And I suspect that the change will reduce community contributions not
increase them.
* student license is being renamed to community license and
platform upgraded from Alpha to x86-64
* community license is being renamed to VMS ambassador license
and with a specific requirement for contributions
But the student license was never popular as far as I can tell
and the VMS ambassador requirements will scare people.
So my best guess is that if we look at 1000 communityt license users,
25 that has been contributing and will switch to VMS ambassador license
25 that has been contributing but will drop out because VMS ambassador
license is not for them
400 that has been running VMS on Alpha and will drop out
100 that are oldtimers interested in VMS on x86-64 and will switch to
the new community license
200 that are oldtimers interested in VMS on x86-64 and will drop out
because they don't like images
250 that are newcomers interested in VMS x86-64 and will switch to the
new community license
25 VMS ambassador licenses
350 new community license
625 drop outs
50% reduction in contributors
no change in number of newcomers needing a lot of handhelding with basics
But I could be wrong, but that is what I predict.
And that is pretty bad!!!!
I wonder why community licenses were never automated. Why was there ever
a queue? Why did it need someone to do things to process it?
Surely they could have just had a form that added a row to a database
and then sent an email. Would have been a lot easier than all of this.
Well, if it was/is that much work, then should that not indicate that there has
been plenty of interest? And if so, why kill the goose that lays the golden eggs?

Or, if there is such interest, perhaps some beancounter (everyone knows I
dislike beancounters, right?) sees it as a way to milk some money from the interest?

The community license seemed like someone understood. What happened to that
understanding?
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
David Goodwin
2024-03-26 21:19:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Froble
Post by David Goodwin
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Chris Townley
Just received 2 mails from VSI
End of Alpha and I64 community licenses
Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers
Or there is an Ambassador program
Not sure what to think yet...
(warning: this is going to be a long rant)
https://vmssoftware.com/about/news/2024-03-25-community-license-update/
* student license program is dropped
* community license program is changed
- not available for Alpha and Itanium, only available for x86-64
- not available as license+kit, only available as preinstalled disk image
* new VMS ambassador license
- with obligations to contribute
- license for all 3 platforms
- license+kit model
* too much work managing licenses
* too little contribution back
I don't think the changes will solve the problems.
It is obvious that VSI has been struggling with the community licenses,
but VSI will still have to do commercial licenses, ISV licenses and
the new VMS ambassador licenses. If that process is not automated, then
it will stille be hassle.
And I suspect that the change will reduce community contributions not
increase them.
* student license is being renamed to community license and
platform upgraded from Alpha to x86-64
* community license is being renamed to VMS ambassador license
and with a specific requirement for contributions
But the student license was never popular as far as I can tell
and the VMS ambassador requirements will scare people.
So my best guess is that if we look at 1000 communityt license users,
25 that has been contributing and will switch to VMS ambassador license
25 that has been contributing but will drop out because VMS ambassador
license is not for them
400 that has been running VMS on Alpha and will drop out
100 that are oldtimers interested in VMS on x86-64 and will switch to
the new community license
200 that are oldtimers interested in VMS on x86-64 and will drop out
because they don't like images
250 that are newcomers interested in VMS x86-64 and will switch to the
new community license
25 VMS ambassador licenses
350 new community license
625 drop outs
50% reduction in contributors
no change in number of newcomers needing a lot of handhelding with basics
But I could be wrong, but that is what I predict.
And that is pretty bad!!!!
I wonder why community licenses were never automated. Why was there ever
a queue? Why did it need someone to do things to process it?
Surely they could have just had a form that added a row to a database
and then sent an email. Would have been a lot easier than all of this.
Well, if it was/is that much work, then should that not indicate that there has
been plenty of interest? And if so, why kill the goose that lays the golden eggs?
Or, if there is such interest, perhaps some beancounter (everyone knows I
dislike beancounters, right?) sees it as a way to milk some money from the interest?
The community license seemed like someone understood. What happened to that
understanding?
I'd gladly buy non-expiring non-commercial VAX/Alpha/x86 licenses for a
reasonable price, like what HP/Compaq did for Tru64. Sadly that option
is not being offered.
Dan Cross
2024-03-27 13:03:16 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Well, if it was/is that much work, then should that not indicate that there has
been plenty of interest?
One would think!
And if so, why kill the goose that lays the golden eggs?
I hate to be that guy, but...but it must be asked: were the eggs
laid by that goose really all that golden? Were they seeing any
return on it? My guess is, "no, not really."
Or, if there is such interest, perhaps some beancounter (everyone knows I
dislike beancounters, right?) sees it as a way to milk some money from the interest?
The community license seemed like someone understood. What happened to that
understanding?
It's been said before in this newsgroup, by me and others, that
the current approach is non-competitive. It may be the only
possible approach for business and legal reasons, but the idea
of generating expanded sales around a closed-source, obscure
commercial system was always exceedingly unlikely. Serving only
the legacy market is, by definition, finite.

And I say that as someone who actually really likes VMS and
would like to see it remain available! I dislike software
monocultures on a number of grounds, but the reality is that
we're heading towards one. It's a real shame.

Personally, I think the way to address this would have been to
simply do away with PAKs and time-limited licenses entirely.

The idea that commercial users would expose themselves legally
and operationally by using licenses that come out of pakgen or
whatever never struck me as particularly evidence-based; maybe
back in the day when small ma' and pa' operations were buying
a microvax and putting it in the back office to run bookkeeping,
but those days are long gone. Legacy customers in the fortune
$n$-whatever are going to maintain their licenses because the
risk cost of not doing so outweighs the cost of staying on the
up-and-up. So what's the point of all the overhead at the OS
level?

- Dan C.
Dave Froble
2024-03-28 00:32:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Cross
[snip]
Well, if it was/is that much work, then should that not indicate that there has
been plenty of interest?
One would think!
And if so, why kill the goose that lays the golden eggs?
I hate to be that guy, but...but it must be asked: were the eggs
laid by that goose really all that golden? Were they seeing any
return on it? My guess is, "no, not really."
My perspective has been that anything that gets or keeps interest in VMS is a
good thing for VMS.
Post by Dan Cross
Or, if there is such interest, perhaps some beancounter (everyone knows I
dislike beancounters, right?) sees it as a way to milk some money from the interest?
The community license seemed like someone understood. What happened to that
understanding?
It's been said before in this newsgroup, by me and others, that
the current approach is non-competitive. It may be the only
possible approach for business and legal reasons, but the idea
of generating expanded sales around a closed-source, obscure
commercial system was always exceedingly unlikely. Serving only
the legacy market is, by definition, finite.
While I seem to consider the world running on Unix/Linux/WEENDOZE could be a
more dangerous place. Some might agree since IBM seems to be still doing well.
Yeah, they will run Linux, but, I think that is more marketing than anything else.
Post by Dan Cross
And I say that as someone who actually really likes VMS and
would like to see it remain available! I dislike software
monocultures on a number of grounds, but the reality is that
we're heading towards one. It's a real shame.
Well, if we get Trump, will anything matter? Good bye constitution, hello King
Donald the First. Someone was just pointing out on TV this morning that when
facisim (I can't spell it) comes to America, it will be carrying a US flag and a
bible. Ok, off topic ...
Post by Dan Cross
Personally, I think the way to address this would have been to
simply do away with PAKs and time-limited licenses entirely.
Gee, someone mentioned this years ago. Oh, that was me ...
Post by Dan Cross
The idea that commercial users would expose themselves legally
and operationally by using licenses that come out of pakgen or
whatever never struck me as particularly evidence-based; maybe
back in the day when small ma' and pa' operations were buying
a microvax and putting it in the back office to run bookkeeping,
but those days are long gone. Legacy customers in the fortune
$n$-whatever are going to maintain their licenses because the
risk cost of not doing so outweighs the cost of staying on the
up-and-up. So what's the point of all the overhead at the OS
level?
Indeed!
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Dan Cross
2024-03-29 00:03:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Dan Cross
[snip]
Well, if it was/is that much work, then should that not indicate that there has
been plenty of interest?
One would think!
And if so, why kill the goose that lays the golden eggs?
I hate to be that guy, but...but it must be asked: were the eggs
laid by that goose really all that golden? Were they seeing any
return on it? My guess is, "no, not really."
My perspective has been that anything that gets or keeps interest in VMS is a
good thing for VMS.
Fundamentally I agree with you, but with the caveat that those
things must be tempered by their costs. Here, I suspect VSI was
faced with a cost that they didn't feel was worth it; they chose
a path to address that, where you and I both agree that another
path would have been superior.
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Dan Cross
Or, if there is such interest, perhaps some beancounter (everyone knows I
dislike beancounters, right?) sees it as a way to milk some money from the interest?
The community license seemed like someone understood. What happened to that
understanding?
It's been said before in this newsgroup, by me and others, that
the current approach is non-competitive. It may be the only
possible approach for business and legal reasons, but the idea
of generating expanded sales around a closed-source, obscure
commercial system was always exceedingly unlikely. Serving only
the legacy market is, by definition, finite.
While I seem to consider the world running on Unix/Linux/WEENDOZE could be a
more dangerous place. Some might agree since IBM seems to be still doing well.
Yeah, they will run Linux, but, I think that is more marketing than anything else.
I think IBM managed to leverage their installed base and lock-in
to weather some pretty bad storms. More power to them, but VMS
just isn't in that same position.
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Dan Cross
And I say that as someone who actually really likes VMS and
would like to see it remain available! I dislike software
monocultures on a number of grounds, but the reality is that
we're heading towards one. It's a real shame.
Well, if we get Trump, will anything matter? Good bye constitution, hello King
Donald the First. Someone was just pointing out on TV this morning that when
facisim (I can't spell it) comes to America, it will be carrying a US flag and a
bible. Ok, off topic ...
You get absolutely no argument from me on this. The "When
fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and
carrying a cross" 'quote' is often attributed to Sinclair Lewis,
possibly in his novel, "It Can't Happen Here." But it's not in
that novel, and there's no evidence he actually said it. It is
very much in keeping with the theme of the book, though.
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Dan Cross
Personally, I think the way to address this would have been to
simply do away with PAKs and time-limited licenses entirely.
Gee, someone mentioned this years ago. Oh, that was me ...
:-D

- Dan C.
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Dan Cross
The idea that commercial users would expose themselves legally
and operationally by using licenses that come out of pakgen or
whatever never struck me as particularly evidence-based; maybe
back in the day when small ma' and pa' operations were buying
a microvax and putting it in the back office to run bookkeeping,
but those days are long gone. Legacy customers in the fortune
$n$-whatever are going to maintain their licenses because the
risk cost of not doing so outweighs the cost of staying on the
up-and-up. So what's the point of all the overhead at the OS
level?
Indeed!
bill
2024-03-29 00:31:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Cross
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Dan Cross
[snip]
Well, if it was/is that much work, then should that not indicate that there has
been plenty of interest?
One would think!
And if so, why kill the goose that lays the golden eggs?
I hate to be that guy, but...but it must be asked: were the eggs
laid by that goose really all that golden? Were they seeing any
return on it? My guess is, "no, not really."
My perspective has been that anything that gets or keeps interest in VMS is a
good thing for VMS.
Fundamentally I agree with you, but with the caveat that those
things must be tempered by their costs. Here, I suspect VSI was
faced with a cost that they didn't feel was worth it; they chose
a path to address that, where you and I both agree that another
path would have been superior.
What cost are we talking about here? If you mean the cost of
taking in requests and sending out licenses I see no reason
why that could not have been fully automated. It's not rocket
science (anymore) people.


bill
Arne Vajhøj
2024-03-29 00:37:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Cross
Fundamentally I agree with you, but with the caveat that those
things must be tempered by their costs.  Here, I suspect VSI was
faced with a cost that they didn't feel was worth it; they chose
a path to address that, where you and I both agree that another
path would have been superior.
What cost are we talking about here?  If you mean the cost of
taking in requests and sending out licenses I see no reason
why that could not have been fully automated.  It's not rocket
science (anymore) people.
It should have been automated.

But there is every indication that it was not.

Arne
Chris Townley
2024-03-29 00:45:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Cross
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Dan Cross
[snip]
Well, if it was/is that much work, then should that not indicate that there has
been plenty of interest?
One would think!
And if so, why kill the goose that lays the golden eggs?
I hate to be that guy, but...but it must be asked: were the eggs
laid by that goose really all that golden?  Were they seeing any
return on it?  My guess is, "no, not really."
My perspective has been that anything that gets or keeps interest in VMS is a
good thing for VMS.
Fundamentally I agree with you, but with the caveat that those
things must be tempered by their costs.  Here, I suspect VSI was
faced with a cost that they didn't feel was worth it; they chose
a path to address that, where you and I both agree that another
path would have been superior.
What cost are we talking about here?  If you mean the cost of
taking in requests and sending out licenses I see no reason
why that could not have been fully automated.  It's not rocket
science (anymore) people.
bill
+1 from me.
Didn't Hunter do something similar in the early days of the HP CL
--
Chris
Dan Cross
2024-03-29 00:57:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by bill
Post by Dan Cross
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Dan Cross
[snip]
Well, if it was/is that much work, then should that not indicate that there has
been plenty of interest?
One would think!
And if so, why kill the goose that lays the golden eggs?
I hate to be that guy, but...but it must be asked: were the eggs
laid by that goose really all that golden? Were they seeing any
return on it? My guess is, "no, not really."
My perspective has been that anything that gets or keeps interest in VMS is a
good thing for VMS.
Fundamentally I agree with you, but with the caveat that those
things must be tempered by their costs. Here, I suspect VSI was
faced with a cost that they didn't feel was worth it; they chose
a path to address that, where you and I both agree that another
path would have been superior.
What cost are we talking about here? If you mean the cost of
taking in requests and sending out licenses I see no reason
why that could not have been fully automated. It's not rocket
science (anymore) people.
I agree, but I'm not privy to the issues inside of VSI that
lead up to this decision. I still think it's a poor decision,
but I freely admit I'm not aware of the full context that went
into it.

- Dan C.
Dave Froble
2024-03-29 01:54:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by bill
Post by Dan Cross
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Dan Cross
[snip]
Well, if it was/is that much work, then should that not indicate that there has
been plenty of interest?
One would think!
And if so, why kill the goose that lays the golden eggs?
I hate to be that guy, but...but it must be asked: were the eggs
laid by that goose really all that golden? Were they seeing any
return on it? My guess is, "no, not really."
My perspective has been that anything that gets or keeps interest in VMS is a
good thing for VMS.
Fundamentally I agree with you, but with the caveat that those
things must be tempered by their costs. Here, I suspect VSI was
faced with a cost that they didn't feel was worth it; they chose
a path to address that, where you and I both agree that another
path would have been superior.
What cost are we talking about here? If you mean the cost of
taking in requests and sending out licenses I see no reason
why that could not have been fully automated. It's not rocket
science (anymore) people.
bill
I tend to try to look beyond what is said ...

It may not be technical at all. What if someone in VSI, or it's parent, asked,
why are we doing this? It isn't what is our business plan.

Something like the CL must have believers implementing and running it. Perhaps
those calling the shots are not believers in the CL.

I don't know anything. Just speculation. But in c.o.v I have not noticed much
being said by VSI people. Might not be healthy speaking out against those at
the top.

Nor am I buying the newbie issue. Just point them at c.o.v and they would get
more advice than they wanted.
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Chris Townley
2024-03-29 02:06:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Dan Cross
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Dan Cross
[snip]
Well, if it was/is that much work, then should that not indicate
that there
has
been plenty of interest?
One would think!
And if so, why kill the goose that lays the golden eggs?
I hate to be that guy, but...but it must be asked: were the eggs
laid by that goose really all that golden?  Were they seeing any
return on it?  My guess is, "no, not really."
My perspective has been that anything that gets or keeps interest in VMS is a
good thing for VMS.
Fundamentally I agree with you, but with the caveat that those
things must be tempered by their costs.  Here, I suspect VSI was
faced with a cost that they didn't feel was worth it; they chose
a path to address that, where you and I both agree that another
path would have been superior.
What cost are we talking about here?  If you mean the cost of
taking in requests and sending out licenses I see no reason
why that could not have been fully automated.  It's not rocket
science (anymore) people.
bill
I tend to try to look beyond what is said ...
It may not be technical at all.  What if someone in VSI, or it's parent,
asked, why are we doing this?  It isn't what is our business plan.
Something like the CL must have believers implementing and running it.
Perhaps those calling the shots are not believers in the CL.
I don't know anything.  Just speculation.  But in c.o.v I have not
noticed much being said by VSI people.  Might not be healthy speaking
out against those at the top.
Nor am I buying the newbie issue.  Just point them at c.o.v and they
would get more advice than they wanted.
I believe the recent batch of VMS newbies helped the demise.

Too many couldn't be bothered to even look at he docs/release notes. One
chap couldn't be bothered to read the TCP/IP docs - and it showed in the
pleading thread.

He then complained about the first 2.2-2 patch - the release notes
clearly stated to install the PCSI patch first - as did his transcript
from his attempt to install.

He then just grumbled on the forum - even after a few good clear
responses from VSI people.

No wonder they thought is it worth it?
--
Chris
Arne Vajhøj
2024-03-29 02:22:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Townley
Post by Dave Froble
Nor am I buying the newbie issue.  Just point them at c.o.v and they
would get more advice than they wanted.
I believe the recent batch of VMS newbies helped the demise.
Too many couldn't be bothered to even look at he docs/release notes. One
chap couldn't be bothered to read the TCP/IP docs - and it showed in the
pleading thread.
He then complained about the first 2.2-2 patch - the release notes
clearly stated to install the PCSI patch first - as did his transcript
from his attempt to install.
He then just grumbled on the forum - even after a few good clear
responses from VSI people.
No wonder they thought is it worth it?
Beginner questions can be frustrating.

But I don't think the changes will fix the "problem".

The beginners are likely to:
- only be interested in x86-64 (they don't have an old
Alpha on the shelf)
- be happy about the disk image as installation is
one of their problems
so I predict practically the same number of beginners asking
beginner questions.

But those outside of VSI able to answer the beginner questions
at the forum or here are likely to want more than x86-64 and
prefer kit + license over disk image. So I predict fewer
of those helping answer questions.

Arne
Arne Vajhøj
2024-03-29 02:16:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Froble
It may not be technical at all.  What if someone in VSI, or it's parent,
asked, why are we doing this?  It isn't what is our business plan.
Something like the CL must have believers implementing and running it.
Perhaps those calling the shots are not believers in the CL.
I think the business case is there for CL.

The cost of emailing out CL licenses is a couple of orders
of magnitudes smaller than the cost of replacing the
CL "free testing" with employee testers and replacing
the CL "open source maintainers" with employee developers.
Post by Dave Froble
I don't know anything.  Just speculation.  But in c.o.v I have not
noticed much being said by VSI people.  Might not be healthy speaking
out against those at the top.
Public commenting on your employers decisions is
generally considered inappropriate.

Arne
Dave Froble
2024-03-30 03:15:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Dave Froble
It may not be technical at all. What if someone in VSI, or it's parent,
asked, why are we doing this? It isn't what is our business plan.
Something like the CL must have believers implementing and running it.
Perhaps those calling the shots are not believers in the CL.
I think the business case is there for CL.
The cost of emailing out CL licenses is a couple of orders
of magnitudes smaller than the cost of replacing the
CL "free testing" with employee testers and replacing
the CL "open source maintainers" with employee developers.
Post by Dave Froble
I don't know anything. Just speculation. But in c.o.v I have not noticed
much being said by VSI people. Might not be healthy speaking out against
those at the top.
Public commenting on your employers decisions is
generally considered inappropriate.
Arne
And dangerous ...
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Simon Clubley
2024-03-27 13:28:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Goodwin
I wonder why community licenses were never automated. Why was there ever
a queue? Why did it need someone to do things to process it?
Surely they could have just had a form that added a row to a database
and then sent an email. Would have been a lot easier than all of this.
They probably should have tied it to the DECUS membership number, just
like HPE did. You could get a free membership number from Eisner as well.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
bill
2024-03-26 20:17:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
But I could be wrong, but that is what I predict.
And that is pretty bad!!!!
Arne
Say good bye to the last of the DEC architectures as they join
the PDP-11.

bill
Dave Froble
2024-03-26 20:24:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Chris Townley
Just received 2 mails from VSI
End of Alpha and I64 community licenses
Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and licensed
VMDK with a few LP, including compilers
Or there is an Ambassador program
Not sure what to think yet...
(warning: this is going to be a long rant)
https://vmssoftware.com/about/news/2024-03-25-community-license-update/
* student license program is dropped
* community license program is changed
- not available for Alpha and Itanium, only available for x86-64
- not available as license+kit, only available as preinstalled disk image
* new VMS ambassador license
- with obligations to contribute
- license for all 3 platforms
- license+kit model
* too much work managing licenses
* too little contribution back
I don't think the changes will solve the problems.
It is obvious that VSI has been struggling with the community licenses,
but VSI will still have to do commercial licenses, ISV licenses and
the new VMS ambassador licenses. If that process is not automated, then
it will stille be hassle.
And I suspect that the change will reduce community contributions not
increase them.
* student license is being renamed to community license and
platform upgraded from Alpha to x86-64
* community license is being renamed to VMS ambassador license
and with a specific requirement for contributions
But the student license was never popular as far as I can tell
and the VMS ambassador requirements will scare people.
So my best guess is that if we look at 1000 communityt license users,
25 that has been contributing and will switch to VMS ambassador license
25 that has been contributing but will drop out because VMS ambassador license
is not for them
400 that has been running VMS on Alpha and will drop out
100 that are oldtimers interested in VMS on x86-64 and will switch to the new
community license
200 that are oldtimers interested in VMS on x86-64 and will drop out because
they don't like images
250 that are newcomers interested in VMS x86-64 and will switch to the new
community license
25 VMS ambassador licenses
350 new community license
625 drop outs
50% reduction in contributors
no change in number of newcomers needing a lot of handhelding with basics
But I could be wrong, but that is what I predict.
And that is pretty bad!!!!
Arne
Yeah, not what I feel is in any way positive.

What? Everyone thought VSI was going to be another DEC?

David has some things to be thankful for ...

Perpetual VAX license running on a VAXstation 4000 model 90A
Perpetual Alpha license running VMS V8.3 on an AlphaServer 800
Perpetual itanic license running on the boat anchor (not powered up for at least
a year)

No longer doing software work ...

:-)
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Chris Townley
2024-03-26 20:48:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Chris Townley
Just received 2 mails from VSI
End of Alpha and I64 community licenses
Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and licensed
VMDK with a few LP, including compilers
Or there is an Ambassador program
Not sure what to think yet...
(warning: this is going to be a long rant)
https://vmssoftware.com/about/news/2024-03-25-community-license-update/
* student license program is dropped
* community license program is changed
  - not available for Alpha and Itanium, only available for x86-64
  - not available as license+kit, only available as preinstalled disk
image
* new VMS ambassador license
  - with obligations to contribute
  - license for all 3 platforms
  - license+kit model
* too much work managing licenses
* too little contribution back
I don't think the changes will solve the problems.
It is obvious that VSI has been struggling with the community licenses,
but VSI will still have to do commercial licenses, ISV licenses and
the new VMS ambassador licenses. If that process is not automated, then
it will stille be hassle.
And I suspect that the change will reduce community contributions not
increase them.
* student license is being renamed to community license and
  platform upgraded from Alpha to x86-64
* community license is being renamed to VMS ambassador license
  and with a specific requirement for contributions
But the student license was never popular as far as I can tell
and the VMS ambassador requirements will scare people.
So my best guess is that if we look at 1000 communityt license users,
25 that has been contributing and will switch to VMS ambassador license
25 that has been contributing but will drop out because VMS ambassador license
is not for them
400 that has been running VMS on Alpha and will drop out
100 that are oldtimers interested in VMS on x86-64 and will switch to the new
community license
200 that are oldtimers interested in VMS on x86-64 and will drop out because
they don't like images
250 that are newcomers interested in VMS x86-64 and will switch to the new
community license
25 VMS ambassador licenses
350 new community license
625 drop outs
50% reduction in contributors
no change in number of newcomers needing a lot of handhelding with basics
But I could be wrong, but that is what I predict.
And that is pretty bad!!!!
Arne
Yeah, not what I feel is in any way positive.
What?  Everyone thought VSI was going to be another DEC?
David has some things to be thankful for ...
Perpetual VAX license running on a VAXstation 4000 model 90A
Perpetual Alpha license running VMS V8.3 on an AlphaServer 800
Perpetual itanic license running on the boat anchor (not powered up for
at least a year)
No longer doing software work ...
:-)
I might try to bring back to life my old firms development Vax and
Alpha. Some perpetual licenses there, albeit slow.
--
Chris
Dave Froble
2024-03-26 21:10:04 UTC
Permalink
I might try to bring back to life my old firms development Vax and Alpha. Some
perpetual licenses there, albeit slow.
I have to ask, slow for what? I assume you're not doing commercial work. Yeah,
not the latest stuff, but, plenty for hobbyist stuff.
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Chris Townley
2024-03-27 00:01:37 UTC
Permalink
I might try to bring back to life my old firms development Vax and Alpha. Some
perpetual licenses there, albeit slow.
I have to ask, slow for what?  I assume you're not doing commercial
work.  Yeah, not the latest stuff, but, plenty for hobbyist stuff.
I have enjoyed VMS X86 - I spent £650+ on hardware to run it, and apart
from certain missing elements it has been fun - I was looking forward to
getting Basic (and LSE) and hopefully providing good/positive feedback

To go back to a VAX, or even the alpha with only a few compiler licenses
on hardware that is very old and slow, Not even sure if I will be bothered
--
Chris
Simon Clubley
2024-03-27 13:31:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Froble
No longer doing software work ...
In a way you are - you are still doing the maths/algorithms/procedures
involved in building your aircraft... :-)

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Dave Froble
2024-03-28 00:36:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Dave Froble
No longer doing software work ...
In a way you are - you are still doing the maths/algorithms/procedures
involved in building your aircraft... :-)
Simon.
And for the most part, really enjoying it. The real fun should come this summer
when I get into test pilot mode.

I did discover, and am not surprised, I'm rather poor at finishing and painting.
Oh, well, it should not matter. I doubt anyone will be inspecting the paint
job when I'm buzzing them 6 inches below their hair line.

:-)
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
motk
2024-03-26 23:31:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
no change in number of newcomers needing a lot of handhelding with basics
Handholding newbies is the price you pay for outreach. You solve that
with decent documentation, real examples, and so on. It's a good problem
to have!

When all your remaining problems are things like "I can't get my ancient
code I refuse to bring up from K&R to compile, bah" then you have an
actual problem, and that's been ignored for years.
--
motk
Simon Clubley
2024-03-27 13:24:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
(warning: this is going to be a long rant)
https://vmssoftware.com/about/news/2024-03-25-community-license-update/
* student license program is dropped
* community license program is changed
- not available for Alpha and Itanium, only available for x86-64
- not available as license+kit, only available as preinstalled disk image
* new VMS ambassador license
- with obligations to contribute
- license for all 3 platforms
What is the point of supplying a licence for all 3 platforms, if most of
the hobbyist users will not be able to run the ambassador's software on
2 of those 3 platforms ? Is the ambassador simply doing unpaid work for
VSI's commercial customers _only_ ?
Post by Arne Vajhøj
- license+kit model
* too much work managing licenses
* too little contribution back
I don't think the changes will solve the problems.
It is obvious that VSI has been struggling with the community licenses,
but VSI will still have to do commercial licenses, ISV licenses and
the new VMS ambassador licenses. If that process is not automated, then
it will stille be hassle.
I think HPE (including HPE India!) did a far better job of this than VSI
are doing.

I don't know how many hobbyist licences HPE had to manage, but I would be
surprised if it was much less than the number VSI have to manage.

Even though HPE only had one person doing this, including after the move
to India occurred, the process always seemed to "flow" much smoothly than
it has done with VSI.

I knew I would find something nice to say about HPE India one day. :-)

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Jim Duff
2024-03-26 22:39:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Townley
Just received 2 mails from VSI
End of Alpha and I64 community licenses
Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers
Or there is an Ambassador program
Not sure what to think yet...
*I'm* certainly confused. The email says "Your current license is valid
through August 22, 2024", however

https://sp.vmssoftware.com/#/packages/676

says "x86 community licenses good through April 1, 2024", agreeing with
what licence list says. That's five days away for those of us on this
side of the dateline. I'm trying to avoid making April Fool's references.
--
eight-cubed.com
Craig A. Berry
2024-03-26 23:01:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Townley
Just received 2 mails from VSI
End of Alpha and I64 community licenses
Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers
Or there is an Ambassador program
Not sure what to think yet...
*I'm* certainly confused.  The email says "Your current license is valid
through August 22, 2024"
Which e-mail would that be? The announcement about discontinuing Alpha
and Integrity community licenses doesn't appear to have anything like
that statement. It did say the existing licenses would be renewed one
more time "in August" -- presumably August 2024.

, however
https://sp.vmssoftware.com/#/packages/676
says "x86 community licenses good through April 1, 2024", agreeing with
what licence list says.  That's five days away for those of us on this
side of the dateline.
So far the x86 license seems to go mostly by field test practices and
they have a PAK on the portal. I've been assuming that would change
sometime soon to how community has been working, but with the plug being
pulled on that, it's an open question how and when there will be another
PAK for OpenVMS x86. We've been told that at some point there will be
this vmdk thing, but whether that's effective *now* with no other
options, or whether there will be one more PAK on the portal, or what,
is not something I've seen mentioned.
  I'm trying to avoid making April Fool's references.
Go ahead and send around an announcement that your patch syndication
service is back online :-). While we're lamenting things that were good
while they lasted :-(.
Jim Duff
2024-03-26 23:53:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Townley
Just received 2 mails from VSI
End of Alpha and I64 community licenses
Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers
Or there is an Ambassador program
Not sure what to think yet...
*I'm* certainly confused.  The email says "Your current license is
valid through August 22, 2024"
Which e-mail would that be?  The announcement about discontinuing Alpha
and Integrity community licenses doesn't appear to have anything like
that statement. It did say the existing licenses would be renewed one
more time "in August" -- presumably August 2024.
I have to assume that when I get a personal email entitled "Updates to
your Community License" that references "Your current license", it's
referring to the only Community License I currently have, the one for
x86_64.
, however
https://sp.vmssoftware.com/#/packages/676
says "x86 community licenses good through April 1, 2024", agreeing
with what licence list says.  That's five days away for those of us on
this side of the dateline.
So far the x86 license seems to go mostly by field test practices and
they have a PAK on the portal.  I've been assuming that would change
sometime soon to how community has been working, but with the plug being
pulled on that, it's an open question how and when there will be another
PAK for OpenVMS x86. We've been told that at some point there will be
this vmdk thing, but whether that's effective *now* with no other
options, or whether there will be one more PAK on the portal, or what,
is not something I've seen mentioned.
Hence my pointing out the (implied) gap between 01-Apr and
22-Aug for x86.
  I'm trying to avoid making April Fool's references.
Go ahead and send around an announcement that your patch syndication
service is back online :-).  While we're lamenting things that were good
while they lasted :-(.
Here we are nearly 14 years after I was forced to kill the patch
syndication feeds, and I don't know how many years after the Sydney CSC
stopped providing the patch list, and there is *still* no way to
automatically retrieve a list of patches for your version of VMS.
--
eight-cubed.com
Craig A. Berry
2024-03-27 02:19:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Duff
*I'm* certainly confused.  The email says "Your current license is
valid through August 22, 2024"
Which e-mail would that be?  The announcement about discontinuing Alpha
and Integrity community licenses doesn't appear to have anything like
that statement. It did say the existing licenses would be renewed one
more time "in August" -- presumably August 2024.
I have to assume that when I get a personal email entitled "Updates to
your Community License" that references "Your current license", it's
referring to the only Community License I currently have, the one for
x86_64.
Ah, ok. I just got a rather generic e-mail entitled "Updates to VSI
Community License Program," not the personal one you got. It occurs to
me I don't even have a current license since my applications in
September and October 2023 were never either accepted or rejected. For
OpenVMS x86 I've been using the registration loophole where a prior
account on the service portal provides the ability to download a PAK.
If that's over then I guess I'm done. I applied for this new vmdk thing
today and this time didn't even get an automated acknowledgement, so
it's looking like this one may be ignored like my previous two applications.
Simon Clubley
2024-03-27 13:43:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Jim Duff
*I'm* certainly confused.  The email says "Your current license is
valid through August 22, 2024"
Which e-mail would that be?  The announcement about discontinuing Alpha
and Integrity community licenses doesn't appear to have anything like
that statement. It did say the existing licenses would be renewed one
more time "in August" -- presumably August 2024.
I have to assume that when I get a personal email entitled "Updates to
your Community License" that references "Your current license", it's
referring to the only Community License I currently have, the one for
x86_64.
Ah, ok. I just got a rather generic e-mail entitled "Updates to VSI
Community License Program," not the personal one you got. It occurs to
me I don't even have a current license since my applications in
September and October 2023 were never either accepted or rejected. For
OpenVMS x86 I've been using the registration loophole where a prior
account on the service portal provides the ability to download a PAK.
If that's over then I guess I'm done. I applied for this new vmdk thing
today and this time didn't even get an automated acknowledgement, so
it's looking like this one may be ignored like my previous two applications.
I wonder what happens to Perl on VMS in that case ?

Are VSI packaging your Perl version in x86-64 VMS or are they maintaining
their own Perl port ?

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Craig A. Berry
2024-03-27 17:39:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Jim Duff
*I'm* certainly confused.  The email says "Your current license is
valid through August 22, 2024"
Which e-mail would that be?  The announcement about discontinuing Alpha
and Integrity community licenses doesn't appear to have anything like
that statement. It did say the existing licenses would be renewed one
more time "in August" -- presumably August 2024.
I have to assume that when I get a personal email entitled "Updates to
your Community License" that references "Your current license", it's
referring to the only Community License I currently have, the one for
x86_64.
Ah, ok. I just got a rather generic e-mail entitled "Updates to VSI
Community License Program," not the personal one you got. It occurs to
me I don't even have a current license since my applications in
September and October 2023 were never either accepted or rejected. For
OpenVMS x86 I've been using the registration loophole where a prior
account on the service portal provides the ability to download a PAK.
If that's over then I guess I'm done. I applied for this new vmdk thing
today and this time didn't even get an automated acknowledgement, so
it's looking like this one may be ignored like my previous two applications.
I wonder what happens to Perl on VMS in that case ?
Are VSI packaging your Perl version in x86-64 VMS or are they maintaining
their own Perl port ?
They are not maintaining their own port.

I guess I'll see what results from my application for the new community
license. I could probably qualify as an ambassador based on work I've
done in the past, but it's a little vague what the expectations are and
I don't have a lot of confidence they can actually process applications
for anything based on recent experience.
Simon Clubley
2024-03-27 19:58:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Craig A. Berry
Ah, ok. I just got a rather generic e-mail entitled "Updates to VSI
Community License Program," not the personal one you got. It occurs to
me I don't even have a current license since my applications in
September and October 2023 were never either accepted or rejected. For
OpenVMS x86 I've been using the registration loophole where a prior
account on the service portal provides the ability to download a PAK.
If that's over then I guess I'm done. I applied for this new vmdk thing
today and this time didn't even get an automated acknowledgement, so
it's looking like this one may be ignored like my previous two applications.
I wonder what happens to Perl on VMS in that case ?
Are VSI packaging your Perl version in x86-64 VMS or are they maintaining
their own Perl port ?
They are not maintaining their own port.
So IOW, VSI are packaging something you have created as part of their
base installation.
Post by Craig A. Berry
I guess I'll see what results from my application for the new community
license. I could probably qualify as an ambassador based on work I've
done in the past, but it's a little vague what the expectations are and
I don't have a lot of confidence they can actually process applications
for anything based on recent experience.
Given the above, you should not have to apply to continue getting free
access to VMS systems, and you certainly should not have to go through
this pre-built system only setup.

IMHO, the fact VSI have not already contacted you and arranged for your
continued free access to VMS systems, and based on the current setup, is
a major mistake on the part of VSI.

Given what you have provided to VSI for free, you should not be having
to apply for anything. :-(

I hope one of the VSI employees reading comp.os.vms are already having
a quiet word with the people responsible for this to get this situation
fixed quickly.

I would also recommend VSI review all the other open source software they
make available which is maintained by non-VSI people and arrange for those
people to have immediate continued access with the minimum of fuss and
change required.

If anyone reading this agrees with the above, could you say so here ?
It might provoke VSI into rapidly fixing this screwup by them.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Arne Vajhøj
2024-03-27 20:21:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
I hope one of the VSI employees reading comp.os.vms are already having
a quiet word with the people responsible for this to get this situation
fixed quickly.
If anyone reading this agrees with the above, could you say so here ?
It might provoke VSI into rapidly fixing this screwup by them.
I have not counted. But I believe the current result is:

this is a good idea : 0
this is a bad idea : 50 or so magnitude

How much weight VSI put on c.o.v is another question.
Post by Simon Clubley
I would also recommend VSI review all the other open source software they
make available which is maintained by non-VSI people and arrange for those
people to have immediate continued access with the minimum of fuss and
change required.
Yeah.

But it would be way easier to just let those people apply
for a CL license like before.

And one of the main reasons given for the change was
work administering this.

Arne
David Goodwin
2024-03-27 20:41:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Craig A. Berry
Ah, ok. I just got a rather generic e-mail entitled "Updates to VSI
Community License Program," not the personal one you got. It occurs to
me I don't even have a current license since my applications in
September and October 2023 were never either accepted or rejected. For
OpenVMS x86 I've been using the registration loophole where a prior
account on the service portal provides the ability to download a PAK.
If that's over then I guess I'm done. I applied for this new vmdk thing
today and this time didn't even get an automated acknowledgement, so
it's looking like this one may be ignored like my previous two applications.
I wonder what happens to Perl on VMS in that case ?
Are VSI packaging your Perl version in x86-64 VMS or are they maintaining
their own Perl port ?
They are not maintaining their own port.
So IOW, VSI are packaging something you have created as part of their
base installation.
Post by Craig A. Berry
I guess I'll see what results from my application for the new community
license. I could probably qualify as an ambassador based on work I've
done in the past, but it's a little vague what the expectations are and
I don't have a lot of confidence they can actually process applications
for anything based on recent experience.
Given the above, you should not have to apply to continue getting free
access to VMS systems, and you certainly should not have to go through
this pre-built system only setup.
IMHO, the fact VSI have not already contacted you and arranged for your
continued free access to VMS systems, and based on the current setup, is
a major mistake on the part of VSI.
Given what you have provided to VSI for free, you should not be having
to apply for anything. :-(
I hope one of the VSI employees reading comp.os.vms are already having
a quiet word with the people responsible for this to get this situation
fixed quickly.
I would also recommend VSI review all the other open source software they
make available which is maintained by non-VSI people and arrange for those
people to have immediate continued access with the minimum of fuss and
change required.
If anyone reading this agrees with the above, could you say so here ?
It might provoke VSI into rapidly fixing this screwup by them.
I wonder how many people maintaining open-source packages will even
think its still worthwhile if the only people who can benefit from it
are corporate users.

Getting continued free access to OpenVMS for only as long as you're
maintaining some open-source package and only really for the benefit of
commercial users sounds more like an unpaid job than anything.

If VSI doesn't want to give away something for free anymore for the
benefit of the community, I'm not sure why VSI should expect this stuff
to be maintained for free for the benefit of their customers. If VSI
wants it they ought to be paying money for it.
Mark Daniel
2024-03-27 22:05:17 UTC
Permalink
8< snip 8<
Post by Simon Clubley
So IOW, VSI are packaging something you have created as part of their
base installation.
Post by Craig A. Berry
I guess I'll see what results from my application for the new community
license. I could probably qualify as an ambassador based on work I've
done in the past, but it's a little vague what the expectations are and
I don't have a lot of confidence they can actually process applications
for anything based on recent experience.
Given the above, you should not have to apply to continue getting free
access to VMS systems, and you certainly should not have to go through
this pre-built system only setup.
8< snip 8<
Post by Simon Clubley
If anyone reading this agrees with the above, could you say so here ?
It might provoke VSI into rapidly fixing this screwup by them.
Simon.
+1
--
Anyone, who using social-media, forms an opinion regarding anything
other than the relative cuteness of this or that puppy-dog, needs
seriously to examine their critical thinking.
Craig A. Berry
2024-03-27 22:12:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Simon Clubley
Are VSI packaging your Perl version in x86-64 VMS or are they maintaining
their own Perl port ?
They are not maintaining their own port.
So IOW, VSI are packaging something you have created as part of their
base installation.
They are using the standard distribution as well as some kit-building
procedures I created. This is all open source and they are not doing
anything wrong here.

What I have been doing for a long time that no one else has been doing
is fairly frequent builds of the current development branch followed by
fixing upstream whatever got broken since the last time I built. That
constant maintenance is why the standard distribution even works on VMS.
Post by Simon Clubley
Given what you have provided to VSI for free, you should not be having
to apply for anything. :-(
Thanks for the note of support. I don't really feel that anybody owes me
anything, but "why are you making it harder for me to help you?" is a
question that's been rattling around in my head.

I'm not sure what problem it is they are really trying to solve.
Somehow there was too much interest and not enough "engagement"? If
Arne had put all his nice example code on a VSI-hosted wiki instead of
his own web site would that have convinced them that the community is
doing enough for VSI?

Meanwhile I still don't have even an auto-reply from applying for a new
community license.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-03-28 00:34:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Craig A. Berry
I'm not sure what problem it is they are really trying to solve.
Boost the share price.
Arne Vajhøj
2024-03-28 01:12:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Craig A. Berry
I'm not sure what problem it is they are really trying to solve.
Boost the share price.
VSI is a private company not a public company.

Arne
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-03-28 02:43:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Craig A. Berry
I'm not sure what problem it is they are really trying to solve.
Boost the share price.
VSI is a private company not a public company.
Maybe they’re readying it for an acquisition?
Robert A. Brooks
2024-03-28 02:58:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Craig A. Berry
I'm not sure what problem it is they are really trying to solve.
Boost the share price.
VSI is a private company not a public company.
Maybe they’re readying it for an acquisition?
Uh, no.

Our parent company (Teracloud -- https://teracloud.com/)
likes to acquire companies, not get rid of them.
--
--- Rob
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-03-28 05:16:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert A. Brooks
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Arne Vajhøj
VSI is a private company not a public company.
Maybe they’re readying it for an acquisition?
Uh, no.
Our parent company (Teracloud -- https://teracloud.com/)
likes to acquire companies, not get rid of them.
So I notice. It seems to have collected a real random mishmash of
businesses, with no clear cohesion behind them.

<https://teracloud.com/projects>

Seems it was founded in 2017, according to
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/teracloud-llc>. Since VSI existed before
that, that means it has already been acquired once.
Michael S
2024-03-28 11:44:12 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 28 Mar 2024 05:16:06 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Robert A. Brooks
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Arne Vajhøj
VSI is a private company not a public company.
Maybe they’re readying it for an acquisition?
Uh, no.
Our parent company (Teracloud -- https://teracloud.com/)
likes to acquire companies, not get rid of them.
So I notice. It seems to have collected a real random mishmash of
businesses, with no clear cohesion behind them.
<https://teracloud.com/projects>
Seems it was founded in 2017, according to
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/teracloud-llc>. Since VSI existed
before that, that means it has already been acquired once.
More likely, in 2017 Johan Magnusson Gedda, an owner of VSI and of
few other, mostly bigger companies, moved his office to Copenhagen
and decided that at new place he wants to use a new name.
Bork
2024-03-28 09:28:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Craig A. Berry
I'm not sure what problem it is they are really trying to solve.
Boost the share price.
VSI is a private company not a public company.
Private company's still have shares. In any case, they're possibly
juicing the value to sell off the IP. Getting a real case of Private
Equity here - did the new owners happen to bring in a lot of debt?
--
motk
Arne Vajhøj
2024-03-28 11:23:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bork
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Craig A. Berry
I'm not sure what problem it is they are really trying to solve.
Boost the share price.
VSI is a private company not a public company.
Private company's still have shares.
Yes. But since they are not traded there is no price
on the stock exchange to boost.
Post by Bork
In any case, they're possibly
juicing the value to sell off the IP.
I doubt that. I don't think VSI got any IP that they can
sell.

Arne
Dave Froble
2024-03-28 17:52:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Bork
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Craig A. Berry
I'm not sure what problem it is they are really trying to solve.
Boost the share price.
VSI is a private company not a public company.
Private company's still have shares.
Yes. But since they are not traded there is no price
on the stock exchange to boost.
Post by Bork
In any case, they're possibly juicing the
value to sell off the IP.
I doubt that. I don't think VSI got any IP that they can
sell.
Arne
There is also the question of whether they can re-sale the license(s) or
agreements they received from HP. Perhaps acquisition of a company is not the
same as transferring assets?

They do own whatever they develop and can sell that.
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Arne Vajhøj
2024-03-28 23:09:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Arne Vajhøj
                                In any case, they're possibly juicing
the
value to sell off the IP.
I doubt that. I don't think VSI got any IP that they can
sell.
There is also the question of whether they can re-sale the license(s) or
agreements they received from HP.  Perhaps acquisition of a company is
not the same as transferring assets?
It all depends on the wording of the agreement between HP/HPE and VSI.

But a guess:

Can VSI sell the VMS IP to a third party? Definitely no - VSI does not
own VMS IP.

Can VSI sell the right to distribute VMS to a third party? My guess
would be no - I don't see HP/HPE lawyers having agreed to that
("non-transferable license" is a common term).

Can Terracloud sell their VSI stocks to a third party? My guess would be
yes - HP/HPE lawyers would not care who owns VSI.
Post by Dave Froble
They do own whatever they develop and can sell that.
VSI own the IP of what they have created, but I don't see
that being a sellable product without the HP/HPE IP.

Arne
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-03-29 00:22:43 UTC
Permalink
VSI does not own VMS IP.
What about the code VSI created? Do the rights to that belong to HP as
well?
Arne Vajhøj
2024-03-29 00:36:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
VSI does not own VMS IP.
What about the code VSI created? Do the rights to that belong to HP as
well?
They must own that.

But 5% of the code for an OS is not worth much without
the remaining 95%.

Arne
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-03-29 00:43:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arne Vajhøj
But 5% of the code for an OS is not worth much without
the remaining 95%.
That’s how BSD got started.
Simon Clubley
2024-03-28 13:19:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Simon Clubley
Are VSI packaging your Perl version in x86-64 VMS or are they maintaining
their own Perl port ?
They are not maintaining their own port.
So IOW, VSI are packaging something you have created as part of their
base installation.
They are using the standard distribution as well as some kit-building
procedures I created. This is all open source and they are not doing
anything wrong here.
I didn't think they would be. What you say below matches what I thought
you were doing.
Post by Craig A. Berry
What I have been doing for a long time that no one else has been doing
is fairly frequent builds of the current development branch followed by
fixing upstream whatever got broken since the last time I built. That
constant maintenance is why the standard distribution even works on VMS.
That is exactly my point. You are doing work for free that directly benefits
VSI. The fact you push your changes to a public distribution and VSI take
from that distribution, instead of from you directly, does not change that.

I should also point out that this is also the type of unseen thankless work
that nobody notices when everything is running ok, but which they notice
big time when that thankless work stops being done.

VSI are in serious danger of finding this out the hard way, especially given
the multiple open source packages people run on VMS.
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Simon Clubley
Given what you have provided to VSI for free, you should not be having
to apply for anything. :-(
Thanks for the note of support. I don't really feel that anybody owes me
anything, but "why are you making it harder for me to help you?" is a
question that's been rattling around in my head.
They owe you a bloody great big thanks for doing this work and for doing
it to a sufficiently high standard that they can directly package it as
part of a commercial product.
Post by Craig A. Berry
I'm not sure what problem it is they are really trying to solve.
Somehow there was too much interest and not enough "engagement"? If
Arne had put all his nice example code on a VSI-hosted wiki instead of
his own web site would that have convinced them that the community is
doing enough for VSI?
I just don't get it either. HPE (including HPE India) seemed to handle this
a _lot_ better than VSI are doing.
Post by Craig A. Berry
Meanwhile I still don't have even an auto-reply from applying for a new
community license.
I really hope by now that is on its way to rapidly being fixed. :-(

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Hans Bachner
2024-03-28 23:58:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Craig A. Berry
Ah, ok. I just got a rather generic e-mail entitled "Updates to VSI
Community License Program," not the personal one you got. It occurs to
me I don't even have a current license since my applications in
September and October 2023 were never either accepted or rejected. For
OpenVMS x86 I've been using the registration loophole where a prior
account on the service portal provides the ability to download a PAK.
If that's over then I guess I'm done. I applied for this new vmdk thing
today and this time didn't even get an automated acknowledgement, so
it's looking like this one may be ignored like my previous two applications.
I wonder what happens to Perl on VMS in that case ?
Are VSI packaging your Perl version in x86-64 VMS or are they maintaining
their own Perl port ?
They are not maintaining their own port.
So IOW, VSI are packaging something you have created as part of their
base installation.
Post by Craig A. Berry
[...]
Given the above, you should not have to apply to continue getting free
access to VMS systems, and you certainly should not have to go through
this pre-built system only setup.
IMHO, the fact VSI have not already contacted you and arranged for your
continued free access to VMS systems, and based on the current setup, is
a major mistake on the part of VSI.
Given what you have provided to VSI for free, you should not be having
to apply for anything. :-(
I hope one of the VSI employees reading comp.os.vms are already having
a quiet word with the people responsible for this to get this situation
fixed quickly.
I would also recommend VSI review all the other open source software they
make available which is maintained by non-VSI people and arrange for those
people to have immediate continued access with the minimum of fuss and
change required.
If anyone reading this agrees with the above, could you say so here ?
It might provoke VSI into rapidly fixing this screwup by them.
+1
Dave Froble
2024-03-28 00:45:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Jim Duff
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Jim Duff
*I'm* certainly confused. The email says "Your current license is
valid through August 22, 2024"
Which e-mail would that be? The announcement about discontinuing Alpha
and Integrity community licenses doesn't appear to have anything like
that statement. It did say the existing licenses would be renewed one
more time "in August" -- presumably August 2024.
I have to assume that when I get a personal email entitled "Updates to
your Community License" that references "Your current license", it's
referring to the only Community License I currently have, the one for
x86_64.
Ah, ok. I just got a rather generic e-mail entitled "Updates to VSI
Community License Program," not the personal one you got. It occurs to
me I don't even have a current license since my applications in
September and October 2023 were never either accepted or rejected. For
OpenVMS x86 I've been using the registration loophole where a prior
account on the service portal provides the ability to download a PAK.
If that's over then I guess I'm done. I applied for this new vmdk thing
today and this time didn't even get an automated acknowledgement, so
it's looking like this one may be ignored like my previous two applications.
I wonder what happens to Perl on VMS in that case ?
Are VSI packaging your Perl version in x86-64 VMS or are they maintaining
their own Perl port ?
They are not maintaining their own port.
I guess I'll see what results from my application for the new community
license. I could probably qualify as an ambassador based on work I've
done in the past, but it's a little vague what the expectations are and
I don't have a lot of confidence they can actually process applications
for anything based on recent experience.
If you're maintaining PERL for VMS, then why are you messing with a CL? You
should be in the developer program.
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Craig A. Berry
2024-03-28 00:59:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Froble
If you're maintaining PERL for VMS, then why are you messing with a CL?
You should be in the developer program.
I have never heard of a "developer" program. I have heard of ISV
licenses for people producing commercial software for sale. That never
seemed relevant for open source work, but if you have evidence to the
contrary, please enlighten me.
Dave Froble
2024-03-28 01:47:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Dave Froble
If you're maintaining PERL for VMS, then why are you messing with a CL? You
should be in the developer program.
I have never heard of a "developer" program. I have heard of ISV
licenses for people producing commercial software for sale. That never
seemed relevant for open source work, but if you have evidence to the
contrary, please enlighten me.
Several years ago I mentioned to Mark Daniels that he should be in the
developer/ISV program, and he checked it out and joined. He seemed to be
pleased. Last I heard, he wasn't considering WASD a commercial product.
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Craig A. Berry
2024-03-28 01:59:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Dave Froble
If you're maintaining PERL for VMS, then why are you messing with a
CL?  You
should be in the developer program.
I have never heard of a "developer" program.  I have heard of ISV
licenses for people producing commercial software for sale.  That never
seemed relevant for open source work, but if you have evidence to the
contrary, please enlighten me.
Several years ago I mentioned to Mark Daniels that he should be in the
developer/ISV program, and he checked it out and joined.  He seemed to
be pleased.  Last I heard, he wasn't considering WASD a commercial product.
Good to know. Here, under ISV license:

https://vmssoftware.com/products/licenses/

it says, "If you are an Independent Software Vendor of Commercial
software for OpenVMS...."

Maybe something has changed or maybe they don't really require that.
Mark Daniel
2024-03-28 02:33:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Froble
Post by Dave Froble
If you're maintaining PERL for VMS, then why are you messing with a
CL?  You
should be in the developer program.
I have never heard of a "developer" program.  I have heard of ISV
licenses for people producing commercial software for sale.  That never
seemed relevant for open source work, but if you have evidence to the
contrary, please enlighten me.
Several years ago I mentioned to Mark Daniels that he should be in the
developer/ISV program, and he checked it out and joined.  He seemed to
be pleased.  Last I heard, he wasn't considering WASD a commercial product.
Yes, I am pleased. No, it is not.

I understand my application was advocated for by Kerry Main and endorsed
by Eddie Orcutt at the time.

It certainly gave me early access to x86 for the port.

No reason why contributors to major software should not be considered.
Perhaps 'ambassador' might be a better fit. Until we know more...
--
Anyone, who using social-media, forms an opinion regarding anything
other than the relative cuteness of this or that puppy-dog, needs
seriously to examine their critical thinking.
Stephen Hoffman
2024-03-28 19:18:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Duff
Here we are nearly 14 years after I was forced to kill the patch
syndication feeds, and I don't know how many years after the Sydney CSC
stopped providing the patch list, and there is *still* no way to
automatically retrieve a list of patches for your version of VMS.
Definitely. Patches are still a mess. No way to buy VSI products
online, either. One- and two-person shops have routinely established
that. But VSI has lots of licenses and license complexity. Yeah, and
whose problem is that to address? Maybe prior to patching the problem
of PAK profligacy, pick the thousand most common, and configure and
sell those. 🤷🏼
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
motk
2024-03-26 23:09:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Townley
Just received 2 mails from VSI
End of Alpha and I64 community licenses
Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers
Or there is an Ambassador program
Not sure what to think yet...
It's dead. They just killed VMS - there's no way you can do anything
useful with VMS anymore, there's no pipeline for new users. New owners
are just going to do the broadcom extract-maxiumum-gravy thing. I
wondered why my community license was taking seven months to provision.
"Long waiting list" my buttocks.

If you're using VMS in production, it's beyond time to find an alternative.

If you can't abide newbies, you don't deserve a motivated base.Dropping
a once-a-year toy version is 1990 nonsense.
--
motk
motk
2024-03-26 23:13:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by motk
Post by Chris Townley
Just received 2 mails from VSI
End of Alpha and I64 community licenses
Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers
Or there is an Ambassador program
Not sure what to think yet...
It's dead. They just killed VMS - there's no way you can do anything
useful with VMS anymore, there's no pipeline for new users. New owners
are just going to do the broadcom extract-maxiumum-gravy thing. I
wondered why my community license was taking seven months to provision.
"Long waiting list" my buttocks.
If you're using VMS in production, it's beyond time to find an alternative.
If you can't abide newbies, you don't deserve a motivated base.Dropping
a once-a-year toy version is 1990 nonsense.
And a final thought - the Ambassador tier is just a way to extract
commercial value from the remaining die-hards. Harsh of me to say
perhaps but this is pathetic, and they've just poured forty years of
goodwill down the sink.
--
motk
babydr DBA James W. Laferriere
2024-03-26 20:48:01 UTC
Permalink
Hello All , Following on after Arne's response (that I agree with in
essesence) , Tho a note from in the application struck my interest ...

vvvvvvvvv
"Please note that it is not currently possible to get a community license for
Alpha or Integrity. If you are an OpenVMS Ambassador, you are welcome to apply
here."
The key work is 'currently' , this leads one to beleive that there may
(Or should one say Will) Be a Continuing Community license program in the future
?
Let us hope at least a little bit .

twyl , JimL
--
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| James W. Laferriere | System Techniques | Give me VMS |
| Network & System Engineer | 3237 Holden Road | Give me Linux |
| ***@system-techniques.com | Fairbanks, AK. 99709 | only on AXP |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2024-03-27 08:57:43 UTC
Permalink
Well well...

Took my first VMS/DCL introduction course some 30+ years ago.
Have been doing VMS work every single workday since then.
Up to 2000 as emploided and up to now running my own company.

My current/last assignment was cancelled by the customer on the
last on June 2023 (last summer). I'm now into retirement plans...

So what now? It is very mixed feelings. As much as I have loved
my VMS work over the years, it is an very "empty" feeling at the
moment. I have obviously put to much work and devotion in this
and it is today clear that I have been very close to loosing both
my wife and my familly over the years. That hurts *a lot* today.
The only positive part is that I have provided an economical
stability today for my wife and familly, but I have lost a lot
of my childrens grow-up time.

It is like all my efforts spent on work are just worthless today.
Now I'm 100% devoted to my wife who I try to make up for all the
lost time the last 40 years (incl my 10 PDP-11 years).

I will probably simply leave everything VMS related behind and
will not be either here on c.o.v or on the VSI forum.

I might get a call from my last customer to do some consulting
when they start up the project to move of the VMS platform into
something else. I can just as well milk some last money from them,
as long as it doesn't interfere with my devotion to my wife.


It has been some fun also, with VMS and c.o.v. Thanks all!

Jan-Erik Söderholm
Sweden.
Dave Froble
2024-03-28 00:56:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm
Well well...
Took my first VMS/DCL introduction course some 30+ years ago.
Have been doing VMS work every single workday since then.
Up to 2000 as emploided and up to now running my own company.
My current/last assignment was cancelled by the customer on the
last on June 2023 (last summer). I'm now into retirement plans...
So what now? It is very mixed feelings. As much as I have loved
my VMS work over the years, it is an very "empty" feeling at the
moment. I have obviously put to much work and devotion in this
and it is today clear that I have been very close to loosing both
my wife and my familly over the years. That hurts *a lot* today.
The only positive part is that I have provided an economical
stability today for my wife and familly, but I have lost a lot
of my childrens grow-up time.
It is like all my efforts spent on work are just worthless today.
Now I'm 100% devoted to my wife who I try to make up for all the
lost time the last 40 years (incl my 10 PDP-11 years).
I will probably simply leave everything VMS related behind and
will not be either here on c.o.v or on the VSI forum.
I might get a call from my last customer to do some consulting
when they start up the project to move of the VMS platform into
something else. I can just as well milk some last money from them,
as long as it doesn't interfere with my devotion to my wife.
It has been some fun also, with VMS and c.o.v. Thanks all!
Jan-Erik Söderholm
Sweden.
Wow Jan-Erik, are we twins? Some of what you write is also my story.

Note, you can still hang around here in any spare time. Someone(s) need to keep
Simon honest.

:-)
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Simon Clubley
2024-03-28 13:24:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Froble
Wow Jan-Erik, are we twins? Some of what you write is also my story.
Note, you can still hang around here in any spare time. Someone(s) need to keep
Simon honest.
:-)
$ set response/mode=good_natured

Simon is _always_ honest. It's just that some people don't like Simon's
level of honesty and willingness to say things people don't like to hear. :-)

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
John Dallman
2024-03-27 14:38:00 UTC
Permalink
Looks like a more restricted X86 - We can download a pre-built and
licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers
Looking up what you can do with a VMDK, the options for running it seem
to be QEMU, VirtualBox or VMware. The problems there are:

* QEMU seems to be pretty complex, or at least, ill-documented.
* VirtualBox is from Oracle, and thus subject to corporate whims.
* VMware is from Broadcom, whose swingeing price rises are putting
everyone off the product.

My employers are large-scale users of VMware, but the price rises have
them looking hard at alternatives.

John
Chris Townley
2024-03-27 15:05:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Dallman
Looks like a more restricted X86 - We can download a pre-built and
licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers
Looking up what you can do with a VMDK, the options for running it seem
* QEMU seems to be pretty complex, or at least, ill-documented.
* VirtualBox is from Oracle, and thus subject to corporate whims.
* VMware is from Broadcom, whose swingeing price rises are putting
everyone off the product.
My employers are large-scale users of VMware, but the price rises have
them looking hard at alternatives.
John
I set up a server running Ubuntu, and found it pretty easy to setup
KVM/QEMU. I set up 2 instances of VMS, albeit they are fairly simple, I
find they work extremely well. I have pretty much left my FreeAXP
instances alone, as I have my physical AXP
--
Chris
Stephen Hoffman
2024-03-28 19:30:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Dallman
Looks like a more restricted X86 - We can download a pre-built and
licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers
Looking up what you can do with a VMDK, the options for running it seem
* QEMU seems to be pretty complex, or at least, ill-documented.
* VirtualBox is from Oracle, and thus subject to corporate whims.
* VMware is from Broadcom, whose swingeing price rises are putting
everyone off the product.
My employers are large-scale users of VMware, but the price rises have
them looking hard at alternatives.
FWIW, XenServer (formerly Citrix) sees an opportunity what with the
recent Broadcom VMware pricing changes:
https://www.theregister.com/2024/03/27/xenserver_8_returns/
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Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
John Dallman
2024-03-28 21:53:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by John Dallman
My employers are large-scale users of VMware, but the price rises
have them looking hard at alternatives.
FWIW, XenServer (formerly Citrix) sees an opportunity what with the
https://www.theregister.com/2024/03/27/xenserver_8_returns/
Thanks, noted.

John
Single Stage to Orbit
2024-03-28 21:19:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by John Dallman
* QEMU seems to be pretty complex, or at least, ill-documented.
* VirtualBox is from Oracle, and thus subject to corporate whims.
* VMware is from Broadcom, whose swingeing price rises are putting
everyone off the product.
My employers are large-scale users of VMware, but the price rises have
them looking hard at alternatives.
FWIW, XenServer (formerly Citrix) sees an opportunity what with the
https://www.theregister.com/2024/03/27/xenserver_8_returns/
Proxmox is a good alternative. The commerical fees aren't onerous.
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens
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