Search for folders

[Single Stage to Orbit]

Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?

THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?

[Dave Froble]

Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?

No, the Unix directory structure is weird, the VMS directory structure is
reasonable.

Hmmm ... I detect a lack of sufficient exposure to VMS, perhaps ...

From my VAX V7.2 system:

$ di [0,0] (system disk)

Directory SYS$SYSDEVICE:[000,000]

000000.DIR;1 2/2 [1,1] (RWED,RWED,RE,E)
BACKUP.DIR;1 1/1 [BACKUP] (RWE,RWE,RE,E)
BACKUP.SYS;1 0/0 [1,1] (RWED,RWED,RE,)
BADBLK.SYS;1 0/0 [1,1] (RWED,RWED,RE,)
BADLOG.SYS;1 0/0 [1,1] (RWED,RWED,RE,)
BHC.DIR;1 1/1 [50,110] (RWE,RWE,RE,E)
BITMAP.SYS;1 512/512 [1,1] (RWED,RWED,RE,)
CONTIN.SYS;1 0/0 [1,1] (RWED,RWED,RE,)
CORIMG.SYS;1 0/0 [1,1] (RWED,RWED,RE,)
DAS.DIR;1 1/1 [DAS] (RWE,RWE,RE,)
DASV2.DIR;1 1/1 [DAS] (RWE,RWE,RE,RE)
DAVE2.DIR;1 1/1 [DAVE2] (RWE,RWE,RE,E)
DFE.DIR;1 18/19 [DFE] (RWE,RWE,RE,E)
INDEXF.SYS;1 9897/9897 [1,1] (RWED,RWED,RE,)
SECURITY.SYS;1 1/1 [1,1] (RWED,RWED,RE,)
SYS0.DIR;1 1/1 [SYSTEM] (RWE,RWE,RE,RE)
SYSE.DIR;1 1/1 [1,1] (RWE,RWE,RE,E)
SYSEXE.DIR;1 1/1 [SYSTEM] (R,R,,)
SYSMAINT.DIR;1 1/1 [SYSTEM] (RWE,RWE,RE,RE)
TCPIP$FINGER.DIR;1 1/1 [TCPIP$AUX (RWE,RWE,RE,E)
TCPIP$FTP.DIR;1 1/1 [TCPIP$AUX (RWE,RWE,RE,E)
TCPIP$ROUTED.DIR;1 1/1 [SYSTEM] (RWE,RWE,RE,E)
TCPIP$TFTP.DIR;1 1/1 [TCPIP$AUX (RWE,RWE,RE,E)
TCPIP$TFTP_ROOT.DIR;1 1/1 [TCPIP$AUX (RWE,RWE,RE,E)
VIO.DIR;1 1/1 [50,5] (RWE,RWE,RE,E)
VMS$COMMON.DIR;1 3/3 [SYSTEM] (RWE,RWE,RE,RE)
VOLSET.SYS;1 0/0 [1,1] (RWED,RWED,RE,)

Total of 27 files, 10448/10449 blocks.

Each disk has what you are calling a root directory. Within it are top level
directorys. The "ROOT" can be addressed as [0,0], [000000], or [000,000].
Don't ask me why more than one method. I don't know.

Do note that one should never, well almost never, place anything in that
directory. I've been guilty of doing so, when the disk is temporary, and will
be re-inited sometime. Usually some OS distribution files.

What is your specific question(s)?

[bill]

Post by Dave Froble

Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?

No, the Unix directory structure is weird, the VMS directory structure
is reasonable.

What is weird about the Unix directory structure? It is a simple tree.

In what way is it different from the VMS structure other than not having
lots of "roots"?

bill

[Dave Froble]

Post by bill

Post by Dave Froble

Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?

No, the Unix directory structure is weird, the VMS directory structure is
reasonable.

What is weird about the Unix directory structure? It is a simple tree.
In what way is it different from the VMS structure other than not having
lots of "roots"?
bill

Because I'm familiar with the VMS structure ???

[Chris Townley]

Post by Dave Froble

Post by Dave Froble

Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?

No, the Unix directory structure is weird, the VMS directory
structure is
reasonable.

What is weird about the Unix directory structure?  It is a simple tree.
In what way is it different from the VMS structure other than not having
lots of "roots"?
bill

Because I'm familiar with the VMS structure ???

The most weird setup I ever used was OS/400 - later i5

It had many different file systems - an IBM one with libraries and disk
pools, with db2 as the filesystem, a root (Unix like) filesystem and a
few more I never used.

What really upset me was some early *nixs that hid the drive devices,
but wouldn't let you rename (mv) files from one device to another.
Useful unless you knew what was on which drive!

[Jan-Erik Söderholm]

Post by Chris Townley

Post by Dave Froble

Post by Dave Froble

Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?

No, the Unix directory structure is weird, the VMS directory structure is
reasonable.

What is weird about the Unix directory structure?  It is a simple tree.
In what way is it different from the VMS structure other than not having
lots of "roots"?
bill

Because I'm familiar with the VMS structure ???

The most weird setup I ever used was OS/400 - later i5
It had many different file systems - an IBM one with  libraries and disk
pools, with db2 as the filesystem, a root (Unix like) filesystem and a few
more I never used.
What really upset me was some early *nixs that hid the drive devices, but
wouldn't let you rename (mv) files from one device to another. Useful
unless you knew what was on which drive!

No different from VMS. You can only RENAME within the same physical storage
volume/disk. Between different volumes/disks, you need to COPY.

[Arne Vajhøj]

Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm

Post by Chris Townley
What really upset me was some early *nixs that hid the drive devices,
but wouldn't let you rename (mv) files from one device to another.
Useful unless you knew what was on which drive!

No different from VMS. You can only RENAME within the same physical
storage volume/disk. Between different volumes/disks, you need to COPY.

Yes. But disks are visible in the full file names, so you know.

Arne

[Jan-Erik Söderholm]

Post by Arne Vajhøj

Post by Jan-Erik Söderholm

Post by Chris Townley
What really upset me was some early *nixs that hid the drive devices,
but wouldn't let you rename (mv) files from one device to another.
Useful unless you knew what was on which drive!

No different from VMS. You can only RENAME within the same physical
storage volume/disk. Between different volumes/disks, you need to COPY.

Yes. But disks are visible in the full file names, so you know.
Arne

Two rooted/conceiled logical names can either be on the same
disk or on two different disks. In the first case RENAME works
but not in the second.

You do not know if you do not translate the rooted logicals first.

[bill]

Post by Chris Townley

Post by Dave Froble

Post by Dave Froble

Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?

No, the Unix directory structure is weird, the VMS directory structure is
reasonable.

What is weird about the Unix directory structure?  It is a simple tree.
In what way is it different from the VMS structure other than not having
lots of "roots"?
bill

Because I'm familiar with the VMS structure ???

The most weird setup I ever used was OS/400 - later i5
It had many different file systems - an IBM one with  libraries and disk
pools, with db2 as the filesystem, a root (Unix like) filesystem and a
few more I never used.
What really upset me was some early *nixs that hid the drive devices,

Device names were never hidden. Just type the right command to see what
they are. df would do it.

As for "mv". Probably a bad naming choice as it didn't really "move"
a file. It renamed it. So, for obvious reasons, trying to rename a
file to be on another disk would be silly. But if you really needed
command to do it, it was trivial to write a script to move the file
and delete the original in any of the shells and make it a command.

bill

Post by Chris Townley
but wouldn't let you rename (mv) files from one device to another.
Useful unless you knew what was on which drive!

[Single Stage to Orbit]

Post by Dave Froble

What is weird about the Unix directory structure?  It is a simple
tree.
In what way is it different from the VMS structure other than not
having lots of "roots"?

Because I'm familiar with the VMS structure ???

It now makes sense, each disk has the root folder containing other
directories and other things.

[Arne Vajhøj]

Post by Single Stage to Orbit

Post by Dave Froble

What is weird about the Unix directory structure?  It is a simple
tree.
In what way is it different from the VMS structure other than not
having lots of "roots"?

Because I'm familiar with the VMS structure ???

It now makes sense, each disk has the root folder containing other
directories and other things.

Yes.

000000.dir is the root directory on each disk.

It is a little bit special that it contains itself.

disk:[foobar]
disk:[000000.foobar]
disk:[000000.000000.foobar]

are all the same.

Arne

[Single Stage to Orbit]

Post by Arne Vajhøj

Post by Single Stage to Orbit
It now makes sense, each disk has the root folder containing other
directories and other things.

Yes.
000000.dir is the root directory on each disk.
It is a little bit special that it contains itself.
disk:[foobar]
disk:[000000.foobar]
disk:[000000.000000.foobar]
are all the same.

Makes perfect sense. Easy to avoid recursive issues. Thanks.

[Dan Cross]

Post by Dave Froble

Post by bill

Post by Dave Froble

Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?

No, the Unix directory structure is weird, the VMS directory structure is
reasonable.

What is weird about the Unix directory structure? It is a simple tree.
In what way is it different from the VMS structure other than not having
lots of "roots"?

Because I'm familiar with the VMS structure ???

Defining something as "weird" because you're not familiar with
it isn't very enlightened. If that's the metric one judges by,
consider how many orders of magnitude more people these days
will call VMS's filesystem layout "weird" because it's different
than something they are more familiar with, such as Linux, the
Mac or Windows. Who's to say who's right under such subjective
criteria?

- Dan C.

[Dave Froble]

Post by Dan Cross

Post by Dave Froble

Post by bill

Post by Dave Froble

Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?

No, the Unix directory structure is weird, the VMS directory structure is
reasonable.

What is weird about the Unix directory structure? It is a simple tree.
In what way is it different from the VMS structure other than not having
lots of "roots"?

Because I'm familiar with the VMS structure ???

Defining something as "weird" because you're not familiar with
it isn't very enlightened. If that's the metric one judges by,
consider how many orders of magnitude more people these days
will call VMS's filesystem layout "weird" because it's different
than something they are more familiar with, such as Linux, the
Mac or Windows. Who's to say who's right under such subjective
criteria?
- Dan C.

But, most here already know that I'm not enlightened ...

:-)

As for "right", well, usually it's in the eye of the beholder.

[bill]

Post by Dave Froble

Post by Dan Cross

Post by Dave Froble

Post by Dave Froble

Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?

No, the Unix directory structure is weird, the VMS directory structure is
reasonable.

What is weird about the Unix directory structure?  It is a simple tree.
In what way is it different from the VMS structure other than not having
lots of "roots"?

Because I'm familiar with the VMS structure ???

Defining something as "weird" because you're not familiar with
it isn't very enlightened.  If that's the metric one judges by,
consider how many orders of magnitude more people these days
will call VMS's filesystem layout "weird" because it's different
than something they are more familiar with, such as Linux, the
Mac or Windows.  Who's to say who's right under such subjective
criteria?
    - Dan C.

But, most here already know that I'm not enlightened ...
:-)
As for "right", well, usually it's in the eye of the beholder.

Actually, all of them are right.

bill

[Dan Cross]

Post by Dave Froble

Post by Dan Cross
Defining something as "weird" because you're not familiar with
it isn't very enlightened. If that's the metric one judges by,
consider how many orders of magnitude more people these days
will call VMS's filesystem layout "weird" because it's different
than something they are more familiar with, such as Linux, the
Mac or Windows. Who's to say who's right under such subjective
criteria?
- Dan C.

But, most here already know that I'm not enlightened ...
:-)

Hah!

Post by Dave Froble
As for "right", well, usually it's in the eye of the beholder.

I suppose. But generally, at least we acknowledge that as being
subjective.

- Dan C.

[Simon Clubley]

Post by Dan Cross

Post by Dave Froble

Post by Dan Cross
Defining something as "weird" because you're not familiar with
it isn't very enlightened. If that's the metric one judges by,
consider how many orders of magnitude more people these days
will call VMS's filesystem layout "weird" because it's different
than something they are more familiar with, such as Linux, the
Mac or Windows. Who's to say who's right under such subjective
criteria?

But, most here already know that I'm not enlightened ...
:-)

Hah!

Post by Dave Froble
As for "right", well, usually it's in the eye of the beholder.

I suppose. But generally, at least we acknowledge that as being
subjective.

$ set response/mode=good_natured

Don't be too hard on David, Dan. He still likes to use line numbers
in his BASIC code... :-)

Simon.

[Dave Froble]

Post by Simon Clubley

Post by Dan Cross

Post by Dave Froble

Post by Dan Cross
Defining something as "weird" because you're not familiar with
it isn't very enlightened. If that's the metric one judges by,
consider how many orders of magnitude more people these days
will call VMS's filesystem layout "weird" because it's different
than something they are more familiar with, such as Linux, the
Mac or Windows. Who's to say who's right under such subjective
criteria?

But, most here already know that I'm not enlightened ...
:-)

Hah!

Post by Dave Froble
As for "right", well, usually it's in the eye of the beholder.

I suppose. But generally, at least we acknowledge that as being
subjective.

$ set response/mode=good_natured
Don't be too hard on David, Dan. He still likes to use line numbers
in his BASIC code... :-)
Simon.

That is a filthy slander ...

Line numbers can be used in place of labels for GoTo statements, which you'll
also probably also slander. But they can be useful. Other than that, line
numbers can be useful for appending boiler plate code to a program. Line
numbers are used in handling error exceptions and handling.

Your implication that I use numbers on every line is just false.

If I'm going to have:

On Error GoTo 32000

Ahhh, what's the use, you're probably just laughing ...

[k***@panix.com]

Post by Dan Cross
Defining something as "weird" because you're not familiar with
it isn't very enlightened. If that's the metric one judges by,
consider how many orders of magnitude more people these days
will call VMS's filesystem layout "weird" because it's different
than something they are more familiar with, such as Linux, the
Mac or Windows. Who's to say who's right under such subjective
criteria?

The Pr1mos team, of course! Love those MFDs!
--scott

[Dennis Boone]

Post by k***@panix.com
The Pr1mos team, of course! Love those MFDs!

Eventually they implemented < being a valid path -- a super "virtual"
mfd under which all of the mounted packs were listed.

De

[bill]

Post by k***@panix.com

Post by Dan Cross
Defining something as "weird" because you're not familiar with
it isn't very enlightened. If that's the metric one judges by,
consider how many orders of magnitude more people these days
will call VMS's filesystem layout "weird" because it's different
than something they are more familiar with, such as Linux, the
Mac or Windows. Who's to say who's right under such subjective
criteria?

The Pr1mos team, of course! Love those MFDs!

Ah yes, Primos!!!

Query: How do you completely trash a disk under Primos? :-)

bill
(actually, I have never seen it tried on other OSes so it may be
possible elsewhere.)

[Dan Cross]

Post by k***@panix.com

Post by Dan Cross
Defining something as "weird" because you're not familiar with
it isn't very enlightened. If that's the metric one judges by,
consider how many orders of magnitude more people these days
will call VMS's filesystem layout "weird" because it's different
than something they are more familiar with, such as Linux, the
Mac or Windows. Who's to say who's right under such subjective
criteria?

The Pr1mos team, of course! Love those MFDs!

Multics squeezed into 16 bits!

- Dan C.

[Simon Clubley]

Post by Dave Froble

Post by bill

Post by Dave Froble

Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?

No, the Unix directory structure is weird, the VMS directory structure is
reasonable.

What is weird about the Unix directory structure? It is a simple tree.
In what way is it different from the VMS structure other than not having
lots of "roots"?

Because I'm familiar with the VMS structure ???

Try using z/OS sometime. :-)

Simon.

[Dave Froble]

Post by Simon Clubley

Post by Dave Froble

Post by bill

Post by Dave Froble

Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?

No, the Unix directory structure is weird, the VMS directory structure is
reasonable.

What is weird about the Unix directory structure? It is a simple tree.
In what way is it different from the VMS structure other than not having
lots of "roots"?

Because I'm familiar with the VMS structure ???

Try using z/OS sometime. :-)
Simon.

NO! Just no.

[Simon Clubley]

Post by Dave Froble

Post by Simon Clubley
Try using z/OS sometime. :-)

NO! Just no.

Oh, David, open your mind to new knowledge-learning possibilities. :-)

Simon.

[Dave Froble]

Post by Simon Clubley

Post by Dave Froble

Post by Simon Clubley
Try using z/OS sometime. :-)

NO! Just no.

Oh, David, open your mind to new knowledge-learning possibilities. :-)
Simon.

My mind is always open to new knowledge-learning possibilities.

But at this time that doesn't include much in software development.

I'm working on a new aircraft design that I'm building, Some unique features.
Lots of learning. Can't wait to start testing it. What to choose? Programmer?
Test pilot? What do you think?

I'm designing a humidifier that will be inexpensive and easy to fix. I really
hate the stuff you buy, new every year, cause it's junk. Forget about finding
replacement parts.

I have additional interests ...

[Single Stage to Orbit]

Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?

[ snip ]

Each disk has what you are calling a root directory.  Within it are
top level directorys.  The "ROOT" can be addressed as [0,0],
[000000], or [000,000]. Don't ask me why more than one method.  I
don't know.

Looks like some form of octal?

Do note that one should never, well almost never, place anything in
that directory.  I've been guilty of doing so, when the disk is
temporary, and will be re-inited sometime.  Usually some OS
distribution files.
What is your specific question(s)?

All is good, I understand now what the folder structure is like for
each disk.

In my system account when I log in and run the dir command it shows me
this:

$ dir/page

Directory SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]

ACCOUNTNG.DAT;1 CLUE$STARTUP_KAKAPO.LOG;28
CLUE$STARTUP_KAKAPO.LOG;27
CLUE$STARTUP_KAKAPO.LOG;26 IOGEN$PREFIX.DAT;1
LAN$ACP.LOG;28
LAN$ACP.LOG;27 LAN$ACP.LOG;26 MAIN.TPU$JOURNAL;1
NET$INSTALL_IDENTIFIERS.LOG;1
OPERATOR.LOG;30 OPERATOR.LOG;29 OPERATOR.LOG;28 ssh.DIR;1
SSHD_CONFIG_.TPU$JOURNAL;1 SSH_CONFIG_.TPU$JOURNAL;2
SYS$DUMP_CONFIG.DAT;1 SYS$SMHANDLER.LOG;28
SYS$SMHANDLER.LOG;27 SYS$SMHANDLER.LOG;26
SYSTARTUP_VMS.JOU;1 TCPIP$CONFIG_CONVERSION.FLG;1
TCPIP$V51_CONVERSION.FLG;1
VMSIMAGES.DAT;1 X86Community-20240401.txt;1

Total of 25 files.

Directory SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR]

ACME$START.COM;1 ACME$START.TEMPLATE;1
AGEN$NEW_NODE_DEFAULTS.TEMPLATE;1
AGEN$NEW_SATELLITE_DEFAULTS.TEMPLATE;1 AMDS$DIAGNOSTICS.COM;1
AMDS$DRIVER_ACCESS.DAT;1 AMDS$DRIVER_ACCESS.TEMPLATE;1
[ snip ]

Why does it shows me two directories?

[Dan Cross]

Post by Single Stage to Orbit
All is good, I understand now what the folder structure is like for
each disk.
In my system account when I log in and run the dir command it shows me
$ dir/page
[snip]
Why does it shows me two directories?

The magic of logical names! A single logical name can refer to
more than one thing (disk, directory, filename, whatever).

Perhpas see what, `show log sys$login` says?

- Da C.

[Arne Vajhøj]

Post by Single Stage to Orbit

Each disk has what you are calling a root directory.  Within it are
top level directorys.  The "ROOT" can be addressed as [0,0],
[000000], or [000,000]. Don't ask me why more than one method.  I
don't know.

Looks like some form of octal?

[0,0] is a synonym for [000000].

I believe it is for backwards compatibility with some PDP-11 OS,
but that is before my time - maybe some of the PDP-11 knowledgable
can either confirm and explain or discard the hypothesis.

Arne

[Fred. Zwarts]

Post by Arne Vajhøj

Post by Single Stage to Orbit

Each disk has what you are calling a root directory.  Within it are
top level  directorys.  The "ROOT" can be addressed as [0,0],
[000000], or [000,000].  Don't ask me why more than one method.  I
don't know.

Looks like some form of octal?

[0,0] is a synonym for [000000].
I believe it is for backwards compatibility with some PDP-11 OS,
but that is before my time - maybe some of the PDP-11 knowledgable
can either confirm and explain or discard the hypothesis.

Yes, PDP-11 running RSX. Each user had a user id and group id and one
(non-hierarchical) directory of the form [GID, UID].
VMS version 1 was still using a lot of RSX programs, so it used this
form for compatibility.

[bill]

Post by Fred. Zwarts

Post by Arne Vajhøj

Post by Single Stage to Orbit

Each disk has what you are calling a root directory.  Within it are
top level  directorys.  The "ROOT" can be addressed as [0,0],
[000000], or [000,000].  Don't ask me why more than one method.  I
don't know.

Looks like some form of octal?

[0,0] is a synonym for [000000].
I believe it is for backwards compatibility with some PDP-11 OS,
but that is before my time - maybe some of the PDP-11 knowledgable
can either confirm and explain or discard the hypothesis.

Yes, PDP-11 running RSX. Each user had a user id and group id and one
(non-hierarchical) directory of the form [GID, UID].
VMS version 1 was still using a lot of RSX programs, so it used this
form for compatibility.

RSTS had the same thing.

bill

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Post by bill

Post by Fred. Zwarts
Yes, PDP-11 running RSX. Each user had a user id and group id and one
(non-hierarchical) directory of the form [GID, UID].
VMS version 1 was still using a lot of RSX programs, so it used this
form for compatibility.

RSTS had the same thing.

In RSTS/E they were decimal.

Also I think VMS inherited some odd conventions from RSX-11. Like why did
LOGINOUT processes always start running under UIC [10,40]?

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Post by Arne Vajhøj
[0,0] is a synonym for [000000].

Almost: you can write

[000000...]

but, as I recall, you can’t write

[0,0...]

[Arne Vajhøj]

Post by Single Stage to Orbit
In my system account when I log in and run the dir command it shows me
$ dir/page
Directory SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]
Total of 25 files.
Directory SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR]
[ snip ]
Why does it shows me two directories?

Now it starts to become a little bit tricky to explain.

Let us start with the practical version.

In VMS "default directory" does not need to be
a single directory - it can actually be a list of
directories.

When opening an existing file all in the list are searched.

When creating a new file it get created in the first
in the list.

It is rarely used by VMS users.

But it is used by VMS itself.

SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR] is really disk:[SYSn.SYSMGR]
SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR] is really disk:[VMS$COMMON.SYSMGR] *and*
disk:[SYSn.SYSCOMMON.SYSMGR]

It is a cluster thing.

disk:[SYS0.SYSMGR] contains file specific for node 0
disk:[SYS1.SYSMGR] contains file specific for node 1
disk:[SYS2.SYSMGR] contains file specific for node 2

disk:[VMS$COMMON.SYSMGR] = disk:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.SYSMGR] =
disk:[SYS1.SYSCOMMON.SYSMGR] = disk:[SYS2.SYSCOMMON.SYSMGR] contains
files shared by all 3 nodes

So as a system manager you can have COM files specific for a node
or shared for all nodes.

Powerful.

But also potential confusing.

Arne

[Arne Vajhøj]

Post by Arne Vajhøj

Post by Single Stage to Orbit
In my system account when I log in and run the dir command it shows me
$ dir/page
Directory SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]
Total of 25 files.
Directory SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR]
[ snip ]
Why does it shows me two directories?

Now it starts to become a little bit tricky to explain.
Let us start with the practical version.
In VMS "default directory" does not need to be
a single directory - it can actually be a list of
directories.
When opening an existing file all in the list are searched.
When creating a new file it get created in the first
in the list.
It is rarely used by VMS users.
But it is used by VMS itself.
SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR] is really disk:[SYSn.SYSMGR]
SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR] is really disk:[VMS$COMMON.SYSMGR] *and*
disk:[SYSn.SYSCOMMON.SYSMGR]
It is a cluster thing.
disk:[SYS0.SYSMGR] contains file specific for node 0
disk:[SYS1.SYSMGR] contains file specific for node 1
disk:[SYS2.SYSMGR] contains file specific for node 2
disk:[VMS$COMMON.SYSMGR] = disk:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.SYSMGR] =
disk:[SYS1.SYSCOMMON.SYSMGR] = disk:[SYS2.SYSCOMMON.SYSMGR] contains
files shared by all 3 nodes
So as a system manager you can have COM files specific for a node
or shared for all nodes.
Powerful.
But also potential confusing.

And regarding the technical stuff behind it, then
it is possible because:
* the device part and the directory part of default
are store separately (in a logical SYS$DISK and
in process memory respectively)
* the device part does not need to be a device only
but can be a device plus a directory accessed via
a so called rooted logical
* a logical can have multiple values

Here comes a user example.

$ dir [...]

Directory DKA0:[arne.fun]

fun.txt;1 morefun.DIR;1

Total of 2 files.

Directory DKA0:[arne.fun.morefun]

morefun.txt;1

Total of 1 file.

Grand total of 2 directories, 3 files.

$ define/nolog funroot DKA0:[arne.fun.] /transl=(conc,term)
$ define/nolog morefunroot DKA0:[arne.fun.morefun.] /transl=(conc,term)
$ dir funroot:[000000]

Directory FUNROOT:[000000]

fun.txt;1 morefun.DIR;1

Total of 2 files.
$ dir morefunroot:[000000]

Directory MOREFUNROOT:[000000]

morefun.txt;1

Total of 1 file.

$ define/nolog doublefunroot funroot,morefunroot
$ dir doublefunroot:[000000]

Directory funroot:[000000]

fun.txt;1 morefun.DIR;1

Total of 2 files.

Directory morefunroot:[000000]

morefun.txt;1

Total of 1 file.

Grand total of 2 directories, 3 files.

Arne

[Arne Vajhøj]

Post by Arne Vajhøj
Here comes a user example.
$ dir [...]
Directory DKA0:[arne.fun]
fun.txt;1           morefun.DIR;1
Total of 2 files.
Directory DKA0:[arne.fun.morefun]
morefun.txt;1
Total of 1 file.
Grand total of 2 directories, 3 files.
$ define/nolog funroot DKA0:[arne.fun.] /transl=(conc,term)
$ define/nolog morefunroot DKA0:[arne.fun.morefun.] /transl=(conc,term)
$ dir funroot:[000000]
Directory FUNROOT:[000000]
fun.txt;1           morefun.DIR;1
Total of 2 files.
$ dir morefunroot:[000000]
Directory MOREFUNROOT:[000000]
morefun.txt;1
Total of 1 file.
$ define/nolog doublefunroot funroot,morefunroot
$ dir doublefunroot:[000000]
Directory funroot:[000000]
fun.txt;1           morefun.DIR;1
Total of 2 files.
Directory morefunroot:[000000]
morefun.txt;1
Total of 1 file.
Grand total of 2 directories, 3 files.

Just realized that it does not really show why
all that stuff is needed.

More complex example:

$ dir [.fun...]

Directory DKA0:[arne.fun]

fun.txt;1 morefun.DIR;1 sub.DIR;1

Total of 3 files.

Directory DKA0:[arne.fun.morefun]

morefun.txt;1 sub.DIR;1

Total of 2 files.

Directory DKA0:[arne.fun.morefun.sub]

z.z;1

Total of 1 file.

Directory DKA0:[arne.fun.sub]

z.z;1

Total of 1 file.

Grand total of 4 directories, 7 files.
$ define/nolog funroot DKA0:[arne.fun.] /transl=(conc,term)
$ define/nolog morefunroot DKA0:[arne.fun.morefun.] /transl=(conc,term)
$ define/nolog doublefunroot funroot,morefunroot
$ set def doublefunroot:[000000]
$ dir

Directory funroot:[000000]

fun.txt;1 morefun.DIR;1 sub.DIR;1

Total of 3 files.

Directory morefunroot:[000000]

morefun.txt;1 sub.DIR;1

Total of 2 files.

Grand total of 2 directories, 5 files.
$ set def [.sub]
$ dir

Directory funroot:[000000.sub]

z.z;1

Total of 1 file.

Directory morefunroot:[000000.sub]

z.z;1

Total of 1 file.

Grand total of 2 directories, 2 files.

$ define/nolog notfun DKA0:[arne.fun],DKA0:[arne.fun.morefun]
$ set def notfun
$ dir

Directory DKA0:[arne.fun]

fun.txt;1 morefun.DIR;1 sub.DIR;1

Total of 3 files.

Directory DKA0:[arne.fun.morefun]

morefun.txt;1 sub.DIR;1

Total of 2 files.

Grand total of 2 directories, 5 files.
$ set def [.sub]
$ dir

Directory DKA0:[arne.fun]

fun.txt;1 morefun.DIR;1 sub.DIR;1

Total of 3 files.

Directory DKA0:[arne.fun.morefun]

morefun.txt;1 sub.DIR;1

Total of 2 files.

Grand total of 2 directories, 5 files.

Arne

[Single Stage to Orbit]

Post by Arne Vajhøj
And regarding the technical stuff behind it, then
* the device part and the directory part of default
   are store separately (in a logical SYS$DISK and
   in process memory respectively)
* the device part does not need to be a device only
   but can be a device plus a directory accessed via
   a so called rooted logical
* a logical can have multiple values

I see how powerful it can be, I can list them with SH LOG.

[Single Stage to Orbit]

Post by Arne Vajhøj

Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Why does it shows me two directories?

Now it starts to become a little bit tricky to explain.
Let us start with the practical version.
In VMS "default directory" does not need to be
a single directory - it can actually be a list of
directories.

Ah that bit does make sense, logicals are why we can see more than one
directory.

This makes sense:

$ sh def
SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]
= SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]
= SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR]

So, it is the logicals that are used with dir to show us the files and
folders. Pretty nifty, just have to make sure when I add files, I need
to be in the correct folder, yes? By default it puts files into the
first directory, as you've mentioned previously.

[Arne Vajhøj]

Post by Single Stage to Orbit

Post by Arne Vajhøj

Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Why does it shows me two directories?

Now it starts to become a little bit tricky to explain.
Let us start with the practical version.
In VMS "default directory" does not need to be
a single directory - it can actually be a list of
directories.

Ah that bit does make sense, logicals are why we can see more than one
directory.
$ sh def
SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]
= SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]
= SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR]
So, it is the logicals that are used with dir to show us the files and
folders. Pretty nifty, just have to make sure when I add files, I need
to be in the correct folder, yes? By default it puts files into the
first directory, as you've mentioned previously.

Yes.

$ eve sys$specific:[sysmgr]something.com

and

$ eve sys$common:[sysmgr]something.com

work - and IMHO are easily understandable names.

Arne

[Dave Froble]

Post by Single Stage to Orbit

Post by Dave Froble

Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?

[ snip ]

Post by Dave Froble
Each disk has what you are calling a root directory. Within it are
top level directorys. The "ROOT" can be addressed as [0,0],
[000000], or [000,000]. Don't ask me why more than one method. I
don't know.

Looks like some form of octal?

Post by Dave Froble
Do note that one should never, well almost never, place anything in
that directory. I've been guilty of doing so, when the disk is
temporary, and will be re-inited sometime. Usually some OS
distribution files.
What is your specific question(s)?

All is good, I understand now what the folder structure is like for
each disk.
In my system account when I log in and run the dir command it shows me
$ dir/page
Directory SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]
ACCOUNTNG.DAT;1 CLUE$STARTUP_KAKAPO.LOG;28
CLUE$STARTUP_KAKAPO.LOG;27
CLUE$STARTUP_KAKAPO.LOG;26 IOGEN$PREFIX.DAT;1
LAN$ACP.LOG;28
LAN$ACP.LOG;27 LAN$ACP.LOG;26 MAIN.TPU$JOURNAL;1
NET$INSTALL_IDENTIFIERS.LOG;1
OPERATOR.LOG;30 OPERATOR.LOG;29 OPERATOR.LOG;28 ssh.DIR;1
SSHD_CONFIG_.TPU$JOURNAL;1 SSH_CONFIG_.TPU$JOURNAL;2
SYS$DUMP_CONFIG.DAT;1 SYS$SMHANDLER.LOG;28
SYS$SMHANDLER.LOG;27 SYS$SMHANDLER.LOG;26
SYSTARTUP_VMS.JOU;1 TCPIP$CONFIG_CONVERSION.FLG;1
TCPIP$V51_CONVERSION.FLG;1
VMSIMAGES.DAT;1 X86Community-20240401.txt;1
Total of 25 files.
Directory SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR]
ACME$START.COM;1 ACME$START.TEMPLATE;1
AGEN$NEW_NODE_DEFAULTS.TEMPLATE;1
AGEN$NEW_SATELLITE_DEFAULTS.TEMPLATE;1 AMDS$DIAGNOSTICS.COM;1
AMDS$DRIVER_ACCESS.DAT;1 AMDS$DRIVER_ACCESS.TEMPLATE;1
[ snip ]
Why does it shows me two directories?

It can be a bit confusing until you understand the rather neat thing that was
done with VMS.

I guess there was the desire to allow for multiple copies of the OS on the
system disk. Thus SYS0, SYS1, SYS2, ...

One can choose to boot into any of the SYS? that has a copy of VMS in that
particular structure. Try that with WEENDOZE ...

Actually, WEENDOZE has something a bit similar.

From the VAX:

$ sho log sys$system
"SYS$SYSTEM" = "SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSEXE]" (LNM$SYSTEM_TABLE)
$ sho log sys$manager
"SYS$MANAGER" = "SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]" (LNM$SYSTEM_TABLE)
$ sho log sys$sysroot
"SYS$SYSROOT" = "DFE90A$DKA0:[SYS0.]" (LNM$SYSTEM_TABLE)
= "SYS$COMMON:"
1 "SYS$COMMON" = "DFE90A$DKA0:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.]" (LNM$SYSTEM_TABLE)

Note the SYS$SYSROOT and SYS$COMMON. The common stuff allows access to what it
points to regardless of which version of the OS was booted.

Then there are the rooted directories, which I won't get into because that can
get a bit complex.

[Fred. Zwarts]

Post by Dave Froble

Post by Single Stage to Orbit

Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?

[ snip ]

Each disk has what you are calling a root directory.  Within it are
top level  directorys.  The "ROOT" can be addressed as [0,0],
[000000], or [000,000].  Don't ask me why more than one method.  I
don't know.

Looks like some form of octal?

Do note that one should never, well almost never, place anything in
that directory.  I've been guilty of doing so, when the disk is
temporary, and will be re-inited sometime.  Usually some OS
distribution files.
What is your specific question(s)?

All is good, I understand now what the folder structure is like for
each disk.
In my system account when I log in and run the dir command it shows me
$ dir/page
Directory SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]
ACCOUNTNG.DAT;1     CLUE$STARTUP_KAKAPO.LOG;28
CLUE$STARTUP_KAKAPO.LOG;27
CLUE$STARTUP_KAKAPO.LOG;26        IOGEN$PREFIX.DAT;1
LAN$ACP.LOG;28
LAN$ACP.LOG;27        LAN$ACP.LOG;26    MAIN.TPU$JOURNAL;1
NET$INSTALL_IDENTIFIERS.LOG;1
OPERATOR.LOG;30     OPERATOR.LOG;29    OPERATOR.LOG;28     ssh.DIR;1
SSHD_CONFIG_.TPU$JOURNAL;1        SSH_CONFIG_.TPU$JOURNAL;2
SYS$DUMP_CONFIG.DAT;1            SYS$SMHANDLER.LOG;28
SYS$SMHANDLER.LOG;27            SYS$SMHANDLER.LOG;26
SYSTARTUP_VMS.JOU;1 TCPIP$CONFIG_CONVERSION.FLG;1
TCPIP$V51_CONVERSION.FLG;1
VMSIMAGES.DAT;1     X86Community-20240401.txt;1
Total of 25 files.
Directory SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR]
ACME$START.COM;1    ACME$START.TEMPLATE;1
AGEN$NEW_NODE_DEFAULTS.TEMPLATE;1
AGEN$NEW_SATELLITE_DEFAULTS.TEMPLATE;1    AMDS$DIAGNOSTICS.COM;1
AMDS$DRIVER_ACCESS.DAT;1        AMDS$DRIVER_ACCESS.TEMPLATE;1
[ snip ]
Why does it shows me two directories?

It can be a bit confusing until you understand the rather neat thing
that was done with VMS.
I guess there was the desire to allow for multiple copies of the OS on
the system disk.  Thus SYS0, SYS1, SYS2, ...

No that was not the primary reason. Each Sys0, SYS1, SYS2, etc had a
syscommon directory, which usually was a link to [VMS$COMMON], as Arne
explained.
The reason that SYS0, SYS1, etc was needed is that even systems booting
with the same OS (in [SYSCOMMON]) need specific data, such as system
parameters and sometimes specific DCL procedures.
By having SYS$SYSROOT defined as a search list to SYS$SPECIFIC,
SYS$COMMON, automatically first the specific data for that node was
selected and if not present, then the common data. Log files were
written in the SYS$SPECIFIC part.

When we were running a 25 node cluster with multiple system disks, we
even expanded that idea by defining a CLUSTERCOMMON name which was added
at the end of the search list. Some DCL procedures were common to all
nodes, even those booted from different system disks.

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Post by Fred. Zwarts
The reason that SYS0, SYS1, etc was needed is that even systems booting
with the same OS (in [SYSCOMMON]) need specific data, such as system
parameters and sometimes specific DCL procedures.
By having SYS$SYSROOT defined as a search list to SYS$SPECIFIC,
SYS$COMMON, automatically first the specific data for that node was
selected and if not present, then the common data. Log files were
written in the SYS$SPECIFIC part.

VMS never had a clear separation between where you put code, read-only
data, user/admin-writable config files, and system-writable data, did it?
E.g. FHS-style /usr/bin for ordinary executables, /usr/sbin for sysadmin-
specific executables, /usr/lib for shareable libraries, /usr/share for
read-only data (architecture-independent), /etc for modifiable config
files, /var/log for logfiles, /var/lib for important system-writable data.

[Arne Vajhøj]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by Fred. Zwarts
The reason that SYS0, SYS1, etc was needed is that even systems booting
with the same OS (in [SYSCOMMON]) need specific data, such as system
parameters and sometimes specific DCL procedures.
By having SYS$SYSROOT defined as a search list to SYS$SPECIFIC,
SYS$COMMON, automatically first the specific data for that node was
selected and if not present, then the common data. Log files were
written in the SYS$SPECIFIC part.

VMS never had a clear separation between where you put code, read-only
data, user/admin-writable config files, and system-writable data, did it?
E.g. FHS-style /usr/bin for ordinary executables, /usr/sbin for sysadmin-
specific executables, /usr/lib for shareable libraries, /usr/share for
read-only data (architecture-independent), /etc for modifiable config
files, /var/log for logfiles, /var/lib for important system-writable data.

In theory VMS has something similar.

SYS$MANAGER - the system managers COM files
SYS$SYSTEM - the ordinary system EXE files
SYS$LIBRARY - libraries (object libraries, shareable libraries,
shareable images)
SYS$STARTUP - product startup files
SYS$LOADABLE_IMAGES - kernel and driver stuff
SYS$HELP - help libraries
SYS$UPDATE - system update stuff
etc.

But it miss something for config and log.

And then we have all the products ported from *nix which
typical end up with the *nix directories under a product
root on VMS.

Arne