Discussion:
VAX OpenVMs Java - JVM? SDK?
(too old to reply)
Lock Horsburgh
2005-03-16 16:51:55 UTC
Permalink
Does anybody know if there is/has been Java on VAX?
j***@ccs4vms.com
2005-03-16 17:08:07 UTC
Permalink
According to 'Ask the Wizard' articles from several years ago, attempts
were made to port Java to the VAX, but the requirement for IEEE
floating point compatibility (which the VAX predates and does not
directly support) caused such serious performance issues that they
decided not to make it available. I haven't heard of any changes to
that situation in years...
Bob Koehler
2005-03-16 18:06:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lock Horsburgh
Does anybody know if there is/has been Java on VAX?
Java requires the use of IEEE floating, which VAX doesn't do. DEC
looked at doing IEEE emulation for Java on VAX and found it so
slow as to be unuseable.

So there's no Java for VAX.
JF Mezei
2005-03-16 19:29:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Koehler
Java requires the use of IEEE floating, which VAX doesn't do. DEC
looked at doing IEEE emulation for Java on VAX and found it so
slow as to be unuseable.
But java "compiler" to generate the jar files would have been very
useful. Cosnider software dvelopment for java enabled devices for instance.

I don't care if it runs slowly. Heck, they had released the DOS emulator
on VAX, they released POSIX on vax.

My take on this is that they decided that Java was going to be one of
the many things to make vax less usable to push people to Alpha.
Bob Koehler
2005-03-16 21:51:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Bob Koehler
Java requires the use of IEEE floating, which VAX doesn't do. DEC
looked at doing IEEE emulation for Java on VAX and found it so
slow as to be unuseable.
But java "compiler" to generate the jar files would have been very
useful. Cosnider software dvelopment for java enabled devices for instance.
Considering that compilers are CPU intensive, VAX would not be my
first choice for Java development. But I do use my Alpha for my
primary Java development system.
Post by JF Mezei
I don't care if it runs slowly. Heck, they had released the DOS emulator
on VAX, they released POSIX on vax.
POSIX didn't require IEEE and DOS systems at the time were fairly
slow, too. Not that they sold a lot of them.
Post by JF Mezei
My take on this is that they decided that Java was going to be one of
the many things to make vax less usable to push people to Alpha.
My take on this is that something they planned to give away wasn't
worth doing on such a slow platform.
Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing
2005-03-16 23:53:22 UTC
Permalink
This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.
Hoff Hoffman
2005-03-17 19:11:57 UTC
Permalink
In article <d19o7m$i7u$***@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Lock Horsburgh" <***@lohmacs.fsnet.co.uk> writes:
:Does anybody know if there is/has been Java on VAX?

The following is from a DECUS Q&A from way back in 1998:

--

"...

Q: Can I run Java applications on OpenVMS VAX?

A: No. You can run Java applications on any operating system platform
that implements the Java Virtual Machine. The Java Virtual Machine is
included in both the Java Development Kit (JDK) for OpenVMS Alpha and
in the Netscape Navigator for OpenVMS Alpha. However, the Java Virtual
Machine won't be available on OpenVMS VAX. Why? The Java Virtual
Machine requires an implementation of the IEEE math standard within the
operating system. This IEEE standard is not part of the OpenVMS VAX
architecture. In our attempts to emulate this IEEE standard on OpenVMS
VAX, we encountered architectural restrictions that hindered our
ability to deliver a conformant Java Virtual Machine implementation
required by JavaSoft. Further attempts to work around these
architectural restrictions on OpenVMS VAX resulted in Java applications
running with unacceptable performance.

..."

--

There is a copy of the DECUS 1998 Q&A document -- the document that
includes the cited text -- posted on the 'net.

To be called Java, the environment has to be conformant, and to be
conformant, the environment needs very specific IEEE floating point
behaviours. VAX lacks native IEEE floating point, which means that
all IEEE floating point must be emulated. This proved to be Really
Slow.

For a related discussion, see the on-going discussions of the (relative
lack of) performance of the Mozilla browser on older Alpha hardware;
on the Alpha microprocessors prior to the EV56 series.

There is related information on Java in the OpenVMS FAQ, as well.

Both Alpha and Integrity provide native IEEE floating point support.

---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------
For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq
--------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------
Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman OpenVMS Engineering hoff[at]hp.com
nobody
2005-03-17 20:01:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hoff Hoffman
behaviours. VAX lacks native IEEE floating point, which means that
all IEEE floating point must be emulated. This proved to be Really
Slow.
However, in an environment where the VMS host serves applications via
web or other transfer methods, the ability to precompile JAVA apps on
the VAX in batch (even if it takes hours) and deposit the jar files in
the right location to be served to the world would have been nice
especially since in the 1998 timeframe, VAX wasn't as dead as it is now.

PSION made the same mistake with its Series 5, promising a software
upgrade with JAVA in it, and decided to not provide it and only install
it on the next version the series 5mx, which fragmented the platform
sicne a large portion of users couldn't run software written with the
current SDK which amde use of features on the 5mx not available on the
5. PSION no longer exists.

If you want your platform to grow, you need to ensure 100% software
availability on all hardware it runs on, even if it means that on some
hardware it may be slow/emulated.


Apple still wins hands down for its migration from 68000 to PowerPC.
Paul Sture
2005-03-17 21:29:00 UTC
Permalink
This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.
JF Mezei
2005-03-17 22:26:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Sture
What you say may well be true, but what killed Psion for me was hardware
quality control. 3 dead ones inside 18 months put me off.
PSION prematurely released the Series 5 so it could be ahed of
Microsoft's WinCE. It lacked about half of the prmomised features and
PSION promised to provide updates when the stuff became ready. What they
really did is just produce a demo of their EPOC32 operating system so it
could be sold to the mobile phone copmpanies who formed Symbian. But for
about 2-3 years, nothing came of it because PSION wanted to finish
EPOC32 for its PDAs while the mobile phone companies wanted to ditch
most of EPOC32 and just keep the kernel and put in the real stuff.

The PSION hardware was a really neat sleek design, but not robust
enough. My series 3 has had its hinges fixed many times, but the last
fix seems to hold. Epoxy resin and fiberglass strands carefully put to
hold the parts together :-)

PSION is so much like Digital. Great product, bad marketing. But in
hindsight, when Psion release the Series 5, they quickly dropped their
north american distributors, and didn't bother admitting that Palm was
aserious competitor. When Palm entered european markets (they had
already taken the north american markety), PSION simply widthdrew from
PDA market. My feeling is that PSION saw this coming while the series 5
was being developped and decided to simply get as much value as possible
for the OS and then quitly widthsraw from the market.

With the money they got from Symbian, PSION bought out a small canadian
firm called Teklogix which makes Microsoft based industrial handheld
devices. PSION is shutting down its support operation for its original
PDAs this June.

The user interface on the series 5 was pale in comparison to that of the
Series3, despite the fact it has touch screen. It was designed as a
showcase of the OS features. (so you had cascading menus to save the
file, cool looking, but not efficient). They also had an automated
feature to open the last opened document when you started an
application, and no way to exit without saving !!!!!

But the series 3 was an amazing piece of software packed into so little
footprint. Its proprietary networking was similar in functionlity to
that of DECNET. I was able to edit files residing on the macintosh from
the Series3 editor, and save them back as if they were local. Abd
having preemetive multitasking with different process priorities
(including non-prempted if priority is above 15) was pretty amazing for
a 80286 equivalent inside.
Post by Paul Sture
What I don't understand is that seemed to kill themselves off voluntarily.
Owner gave up and didn't want to give PSION to someone else. Think of it
as Olsen shutting down DIgital rather than handind it to Palmer and
knowing Palmer would ruin the company.

PSION was unwilling to compate aghainst palm and Microsoft, despite
having superior products. Sound familiar ?
Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing
2005-03-18 00:45:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by nobody
Post by Hoff Hoffman
behaviours. VAX lacks native IEEE floating point, which means that
all IEEE floating point must be emulated. This proved to be Really
Slow.
However, in an environment where the VMS host serves applications via
web or other transfer methods, the ability to precompile JAVA apps on
the VAX in batch (even if it takes hours) and deposit the jar files in
the right location to be served to the world would have been nice
especially since in the 1998 timeframe, VAX wasn't as dead as it is now.
PSION made the same mistake with its Series 5, promising a software
upgrade with JAVA in it, and decided to not provide it and only install
it on the next version the series 5mx, which fragmented the platform
sicne a large portion of users couldn't run software written with the
current SDK which amde use of features on the 5mx not available on the
5. PSION no longer exists.
If you want your platform to grow, you need to ensure 100% software
availability on all hardware it runs on, even if it means that on some
hardware it may be slow/emulated.
Apple still wins hands down for its migration from 68000 to PowerPC.
So, JF, you're saying that OS X and all the iLife tools run on 68000-based
Macs?

Or are you saying that Apple doesn't want its platform to grow?

-- Alan
JF Mezei
2005-03-18 03:32:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing
Post by nobody
Apple still wins hands down for its migration from 68000 to PowerPC.
So, JF, you're saying that OS X and all the iLife tools run on 68000-based
Macs?
No. But PowerPc was a superset of 68k because 68k applications could run
automatically with the 68k emulator built into MACos for PowerPC. In
fact, much of the MACos in the early powerPc version was still 68k
executables that ran under the emulator. Where they did something really
cool was that a powerpc image could run and make calls to routines in a
a "shareable image" that was 68k executable and the emulator would kick
in transparently for that subroutine code.

VMS trasitioned to Alpha without such a built-in automatic emulator, and
at a time when Palerm started his slash and burn to reduce the software
inventory, with much never making it to Alpha.

The transition to IA64 is less damaging because less software is being
killed during this transition, although much is laready dead and just on
life support on ALPHA by isvs.

Now, Apple continued to develop MACos on 68k until 7.5 I think. Starting
with 8.*, MACos was only avaiolable on PowerPC.

Now, HP has not yet officially killed developpement of VMS on VAX. And
in 1998 when this JAVA thing came up, development on VAX was still going
strong.
gl :)
2005-03-18 08:07:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lock Horsburgh
Does anybody know if there is/has been Java on VAX?
SableVM web site affirms that their VM is easily portable to other
architectures. The VM works with the GNU Classpath and seems to be quite
stable and complete. (it even runs eclipse and tomcat)
Did anybody try porting it to the VAX?

Bye!
gl :)

Loading...