Discussion:
TPU on MAC OS-X ?
(too old to reply)
JF Mezei
2007-08-07 02:10:40 UTC
Permalink
Anyone know about the odds of getting TPU/EVE ported to MAC OS-X ?

Isn't it time for the source code of this dead product to be released ?

Since they haven't improved TPU in decades, wouldn't it be fair to state
that the product is dead ?
Bob Koehler
2007-08-07 12:43:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Anyone know about the odds of getting TPU/EVE ported to MAC OS-X ?
Isn't it time for the source code of this dead product to be released ?
Since they haven't improved TPU in decades, wouldn't it be fair to state
that the product is dead ?
Check with a/Soft to see if nu/TPU is available for that platform.
They wrote their own "TPU" and ported it to many platforms. It would
ingest the same TPU source as DEC's TPU (TPU is also a programming
language designed for editor writing), and they included EVE
recompiled from DEC's EVE (written in TPU).

As for DEC's TPU engine and compiler, it's probably written in BLISS
so not yet highly portable.

As many products in many industries have proven, being stable is not
the same as being dead.
Martin Krischik
2007-08-07 18:25:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Koehler
As many products in many industries have proven, being stable is not
the same as being dead.
Depends on your definition on dead and stable. Mine is defined around the
German proverb "Stillstand ist Rückschritt" - which translates to "To stand
still is to go back" (because everybody else around you move foreward).

Which in turn means that to keep stable you have to move foreward at a
moderate rate and if you don't move foreward at all you are - or soon will
be - dead.

Martin
--
mailto://***@users.sourceforge.net
Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com
Bob Koehler
2007-08-07 21:02:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Krischik
Post by Bob Koehler
As many products in many industries have proven, being stable is not
the same as being dead.
Depends on your definition on dead and stable. Mine is defined around the
German proverb "Stillstand ist Rückschritt" - which translates to "To stand
still is to go back" (because everybody else around you move foreward).
Since my EVE based editor is still the best I've had, the others are
still catching up.

I only know of one feature, which I use on rare ocasion, that my
EVE based editor doesn't have that would be nice to have. If I
really wanted it that much, I'd probably write some TPU so I could
have it, just like some of my coworkers write some elisp to have the
features they want in thier emacs based editors.

Of course, we could go around and around on the religions of which
editor is best, but you can't convince me that we aren't in an
it-ain't-broke-don't-fix-it situation with TPU.

If you don't have the TPU code to do your favorite editor trick,
that's not TPU's fault.
JF Mezei
2007-08-08 00:28:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Koehler
but you can't convince me that we aren't in an
it-ain't-broke-don't-fix-it situation with TPU.
Before people gave up on TPU, there were often requests to add features
to it. One that was often made but never implemented was the ability for
TPU code to translate logical names (or perhaps even set them) as well
as symbols. It was never implemented.

Since people have given up on TPU, they no longer send in requests for
improvements, so VMS management applaud themselves for having made the
right decision to offshore TPU maintenance since nobody wants any
changes to it.


The best thing that could happen to Microsoft is if it inherited VMS
management. They would be great at finding excuses/reasons to NOT
implement something in Windows. And Windows would become letharigic like
VMS.
Jim Duff
2007-08-08 05:38:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Bob Koehler
but you can't convince me that we aren't in an
it-ain't-broke-don't-fix-it situation with TPU.
Before people gave up on TPU, there were often requests to add features
to it. One that was often made but never implemented was the ability for
TPU code to translate logical names (or perhaps even set them) as well
as symbols. It was never implemented.
[snip]
erm, see TPU procedure CALL_USER? It's trivial to implement logical
name and symbol functions using a user written program.

<http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/73final/6020/6020pro_002.html#6020built1_12>

Jim.
--
www.eight-cubed.com
JF Mezei
2007-08-08 09:38:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Duff
erm, see TPU procedure CALL_USER? It's trivial to implement logical
name and symbol functions using a user written program.
Yeah, standard answer for an operating system that won't see user level
improvements: WRITE YOUR OWN.


If TPU had built in access to logicals and symbols as had been requested
many times back where there was still some hope of seeing improvements
made, it would make the TPU language much more versatile and it might
have made the language far more popular to build apps other than just
customizing your editor.

Lets face it, the only "priorities" left at VMS management is ensuring
VMS runs and supports the hardware that HP tells it to support. Any
other improvements are just icing on the cake if they have time for it.
And you don't see much improvements to any X applications on VMS, mostly
because they were declared "mature" long ago and maintenance shifted to
another continent where their only role is to compile and test it for
each new version.

Not happy that I say these things ? Tough luck. It is reality. Wake up
and smell the coffee.
Paul Raulerson
2007-08-09 01:09:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Duff
Post by JF Mezei
[snip]
erm, see TPU procedure CALL_USER? It's trivial to implement logical
name and symbol functions using a user written program.
<http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/73final/6020/6020pro_002.html#6020built1
_12>
Jim.
LOL! Whatever else TPU may be- "trivial" is definitely the wrong word.
"Easy" would not work there either --- "arcane" comes to mind. :)

Rexx and Perl and so forth can be just as arcane though.

-Paul
Jim Duff
2007-08-11 05:55:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Raulerson
Post by Jim Duff
Post by JF Mezei
[snip]
erm, see TPU procedure CALL_USER? It's trivial to implement logical
name and symbol functions using a user written program.
<http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/73final/6020/6020pro_002.html#6020built1
_12>
Jim.
LOL! Whatever else TPU may be- "trivial" is definitely the wrong word.
"Easy" would not work there either --- "arcane" comes to mind. :)
Rexx and Perl and so forth can be just as arcane though.
-Paul
Arcane as opposed to say, lisp? That's what people are forced to
program in to extend emacs.

And perhaps I should have said "trivial for a programmer that can spend
20 minutes reading the manual". Having never programmed in TPU before
today, that's about how long it took me to figure out how to do this.
(Although my original statement re: trivial was referring to writing the
user routine to perform the logical name translation, the TPU code was
even simpler).

All up, 130 lines of C code (not including comments) and 27 lines of TPU
would be considered trivial for any accomplished programmer.

Conversion of the C code to your preferred language is left as an
exercise for the student.

$create log.c
$deck
#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <ssdef.h>
#include <string.h>
#include <descrip.h>
#include <lnmdef.h>
#include <lib$routines.h>

#pragma environment save
#pragma extern_model globalvalue
extern unsigned long int tpu$_success;
#pragma environment restore

extern int decc$crtl_init (void);
static int rtl_init = 0;


/******************************************************************************/
extern int tpu$calluser (int *int_param,
struct dsc$descriptor *str_param,
struct dsc$descriptor *result_param) {

/*
** Translate, delete, or set a logical name via TPU's CALL_USER
** interface.
**
** If the int_param is zero, the logical name is deleted. If it's one,
** the logical name is set. If it's two, the logical name is translated
** and the equivalence name is returned in result_param.
**
** The str_param contains the logical name to delete or translate, or a
** logical name / equivalence name pair separated by a tilde (~).
**
** Example TPU code to call this routine would be:
**
** ! Get the physical terminal name
** result_string := CALL_USER (2, "TT");
**
** The result string can return three strings other than the equivalence
** name:
**
** SUCCESS indicates the routine deleted or set the logical correctly,
** PARAM_ERROR indicates a parameter error (you didn't set the integer
** parameter to 0, 1, or 2; you passed in a zero length
** string parameter; you passed in a string parameter that
** either did not contain a tilde when you specified "set
** logical"; or the logical or equivalence names exceeded
** 31 ot 255 characters respectively.
** ERROR indicates an unexpected error occurred.
*/

static char *success = "SUCCESS";
static char *error = "ERROR";
static char *param_error = "PARAM_ERROR";
static char *result_p;
static char *p;

static unsigned long int r0_status;
static unsigned long int flags = LNM$M_CASE_BLIND;
static int result_len;
static short int i;
static short int j;

static char log[31];
static char eqv[255];
static char seen_tilde;

static struct dsc$descriptor_s log_d = { sizeof (log),
DSC$K_DTYPE_T,
DSC$K_CLASS_S,
log };
static struct dsc$descriptor_d eqv_d = { sizeof (eqv),
DSC$K_DTYPE_T,
DSC$K_CLASS_S,
eqv };

/*
** Because we are not being called by a C main(), initialize the
** C RTL.
*/
(void)decc$crtl_init ();
rtl_init = 1;

/*
** Assume success status.
*/
result_len = strlen (success);
result_p = success;

if (str_param->dsc$w_length == 0) {
/*
** Zero length string. Parameter error.
*/
result_len = strlen (param_error);
result_p = param_error;
} else {

log_d.dsc$w_length = sizeof (log);
eqv_d.dsc$w_length = sizeof (eqv);

switch (*int_param) {
case 0:
/*
** Delete the logical name
*/
r0_status = lib$delete_logical (str_param);
if (r0_status != SS$_NORMAL) {
result_len = strlen (error);
result_p = error;
}
break;
case 1:
/*
** Set the logical name
*/

/*
** Break the string up into the logical and equiv names.
*/
seen_tilde = FALSE;
p = str_param->dsc$a_pointer;
for (i = j = 0; i < str_param->dsc$w_length; i++) {
if (p[i] == '~') {
seen_tilde = TRUE;
log_d.dsc$w_length = j;
j = 0;
continue;
} else {
if (seen_tilde) {
if (j > sizeof (eqv)) {
result_len = strlen (param_error);
result_p = param_error;
break;
} else {
eqv[j] = p[i];
}
} else {
if (j > sizeof (log)) {
result_len = strlen (param_error);
result_p = param_error;
break;
} else {
log[j] = p[i];
}
}
j++;
}
}
eqv_d.dsc$w_length = j;

if (i == str_param->dsc$w_length && seen_tilde) {
/*
** Actually set the logical.
*/
r0_status = lib$set_logical (&log_d, &eqv_d);
if (r0_status != SS$_NORMAL) {
result_len = strlen (error);
result_p = error;
}
}
if (!seen_tilde) {
result_len = strlen (param_error);
result_p = param_error;
}
break;
case 2:
/*
** Translate the logical name
*/
r0_status = lib$get_logical (str_param,
&eqv_d,
&eqv_d.dsc$w_length,
0,
0,
0,
0,
&flags);
if (r0_status != SS$_NORMAL) {
result_len = strlen (error);
result_p = error;
} else {
result_len = eqv_d.dsc$w_length;
result_p = eqv_d.dsc$a_pointer;
}
break;
default:
/*
** Parameter error
*/
result_len = strlen (param_error);
result_p = param_error;
break;
}
}

/*
** Set up the results string descriptor and copy the result to it.
*/
r0_status = lib$sget1_dd (&result_len, result_param);
if (r0_status != SS$_NORMAL) {
return r0_status;
}
(void)memcpy (result_param->dsc$a_pointer,
result_p,
result_len);
return tpu$_success;
}
$eod
$cc log
$link/share log,sys$input/opt
$deck
symbol_vector=(tpu$calluser=procedure)
$eod
$loc = f$environment ("default")
$define tpu$calluser 'loc'log.exe
$create x.x
$deck
PROCEDURE set_logical
LOCAL result,
log,
eqv;
log := READ_LINE ("Logical name to define> ", 31);
eqv := READ_LINE ("Value> ");
EDIT (log, TRIM);
EDIT (eqv, TRIM);
result := CALL_USER (1, log + "~" + eqv);
MESSAGE (result);
ENDPROCEDURE;
PROCEDURE del_logical
LOCAL result,
log;
log := READ_LINE ("logical name to delete> ", 31);
EDIT (log, TRIM);
result := CALL_USER (0, log);
MESSAGE (result);
ENDPROCEDURE;
PROCEDURE show_logical
LOCAL result,
log;
log := READ_LINE ("show logical> ", 31);
EDIT (log, TRIM);
result := CALL_USER (2, log);
MESSAGE (result);
ENDPROCEDURE;
$eod

To use, edit X.X and at the command prompt, type "extend all". To demo
the functionality, you can then type "tpu show_logical", "tpu
set_logical", or "tpu del_logical" at the command prompt.

Jim.
--
www.eight-cubed.com
JF Mezei
2007-08-11 17:11:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Duff
And perhaps I should have said "trivial for a programmer that can spend
20 minutes reading the manual". Having never programmed in TPU before
today, that's about how long it took me to figure out how to do this.
Thanks for your code.

1- If it is so trivial, how come they never included it in TPU ?

2- Because it is closed source, and because they have decided to no
longer do any improvements to TPU, such small programs cannot be made an
"official" part of TPU.


Compare this to healthy operating systems where much development happens
where the vendor wants to find reaons to justify adding new features to
their product (as opposed to VMS where management/engineers find reasons
to NOT add new features).

Compare this to even Linux where good tidbits get integrated into the
main distributions and become part of an EVOLVING product.

VMS is DEAD in the sense that it is no longer evolving its user facing
applications.
Martin Krischik
2007-08-09 09:10:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Koehler
If you don't have the TPU code to do your favorite editor trick,
that's not TPU's fault.
Then do tell me how to implement syntax highlight in an editor language
without colour support.

Even syntax folding which is supported by lsedit is not at all that
useful without a 2nd colour to highlight the folded lines.

Martin
--
mailto://***@users.sourceforge.net
Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com
Bob Koehler
2007-08-09 12:34:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Krischik
Post by Bob Koehler
If you don't have the TPU code to do your favorite editor trick,
that's not TPU's fault.
Then do tell me how to implement syntax highlight in an editor language
without colour support.
DON'T! I hate it when editors change the colors to illegible.
Martin Krischik
2007-08-10 07:53:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Martin Krischik
If you don't have the TPU code to do your favourite editor trick,
that's not TPU's fault.
Then do tell me how to implement syntax highlight in an editor language
without colour support.
DON'T! I hate it when editors change the colors to illegible.
The editor does not decide on any colour at all. I decide:

http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=1538

What I find really disturbing, and what shows the sorrow state of VMS,
is that you thought differently. No user of any other OS would have
thought that way - users of other OS's would have just expected to be
able to change the colours they way they like them. At least for an
editor advanced enough to support syntax highlight.

Martin
--
mailto://***@users.sourceforge.net
Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com
V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
2007-08-10 11:59:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Krischik
Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Martin Krischik
If you don't have the TPU code to do your favourite editor trick,
that's not TPU's fault.
Then do tell me how to implement syntax highlight in an editor language
without colour support.
DON'T! I hate it when editors change the colors to illegible.
http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=1538
What I find really disturbing, and what shows the sorrow state of VMS,
is that you thought differently. No user of any other OS would have
You are reading into Bob's statement. He said he doesn't like the
editor changing colors to illegible; he didn't say anything that I
read as implying that the color scheme could not be varied. I have
used editor that change colors of text and I do not like it. It's
turned off if I have a choice.

This is the same thing I find with web sites. People go and look
at a web site and are impressed by the color but where is the con-
tent? The most annoying thing lately is the "flash" animations I
must witness before I enter a site for information. Is there ANY
value in these 'flash' welcomes? In general, I would conclude no!
Post by Martin Krischik
thought that way - users of other OS's would have just expected to be
able to change the colours they way they like them. At least for an
editor advanced enough to support syntax highlight.
You're complaining about an editor in a discussion of an OS. If
you want to complain about editors, complain about all of the 'vi'
variants in linux to edit various files... like crontab.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

"Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

http://tmesis.com/drat.html
Martin Krischik
2007-08-11 15:23:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
Post by Martin Krischik
Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Martin Krischik
If you don't have the TPU code to do your favourite editor trick,
that's not TPU's fault.
Then do tell me how to implement syntax highlight in an editor language
without colour support.
DON'T! I hate it when editors change the colors to illegible.
http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=1538
What I find really disturbing, and what shows the sorrow state of VMS,
is that you thought differently. No user of any other OS would have
You are reading into Bob's statement. He said he doesn't like the
editor changing colors to illegible; he didn't say anything that I
read as implying that the color scheme could not be varied. I have
used editor that change colors of text and I do not like it. It's
turned off if I have a choice.
Ok I missunderstood him. But still: turning off a feature you don't like is
usually easier then turning on a feature which is not even implemented and
you will need to program it yourself in a programming language you have not
used before.

Well, learning a new language has never stopped me - but it helps if the I
can first use the tool comfortably and then learn the scripting language
behind.
Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
This is the same thing I find with web sites. People go and look
at a web site and are impressed by the color but where is the con-
tent? The most annoying thing lately is the "flash" animations I
must witness before I enter a site for information. Is there ANY
value in these 'flash' welcomes? In general, I would conclude no!
Strangely enough I hate flash animations as well. But just a much I hate an
editor which won't allow me to use an simple bright white as background.
See my answer to Bob.
Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
Post by Martin Krischik
thought that way - users of other OS's would have just expected to be
able to change the colours they way they like them. At least for an
editor advanced enough to support syntax highlight.
You're complaining about an editor in a discussion of an OS. If
you want to complain about editors, complain about all of the 'vi'
variants in linux to edit various files... like crontab.
What I did not mentioned is that but - before posting - I checked both
LSEdit and Eve to see if - at least - the used foreground and background
colour can be easily changed. For the test I used the DecWindows
interface - and no: neither fonts nor the colours can be easily changed.
You will have to change the Motif colour scheme or do some advanced
DecW$XDefaults.Dat tweakting. "advanced" - because I already did all the
simple DecW$XDefaults.Dat tweakting, which changed the font but not the
colours used.

Martin
--
mailto://***@users.sourceforge.net
Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com
Bob Koehler
2007-08-10 12:54:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Krischik
What I find really disturbing, and what shows the sorrow state of VMS,
is that you thought differently. No user of any other OS would have
thought that way - users of other OS's would have just expected to be
able to change the colours they way they like them. At least for an
editor advanced enough to support syntax highlight.
I didn't think differently. I don't want my editor to colorize my
code. The first thing I do with Linux is turn off the damn
colorization in ls. I know I can configure both of them, but I want
them off.

If you want TPU to colorize your text, you can write the TPU code to
do it. Yes, it can be done on color capable displays. The fact that
no one has bothered has to do with the value of using a superior
editor and superior programming languages that don't need such crutches.
Martin Krischik
2007-08-11 15:04:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Martin Krischik
What I find really disturbing, and what shows the sorrow state of VMS,
is that you thought differently. No user of any other OS would have
thought that way - users of other OS's would have just expected to be
able to change the colours they way they like them. At least for an
editor advanced enough to support syntax highlight.
I didn't think differently. I don't want my editor to colorize my
code. The first thing I do with Linux is turn off the damn
colorization in ls. I know I can configure both of them, but I want
them off.
But you could switch them off. I never got Eve or LsEdit to display Black on
Bright White - at least not with the DecWindows interface. Both use some
ugly green from the Motif colour scheme.
Post by Bob Koehler
If you want TPU to colorize your text, you can write the TPU code to
do it. Yes, it can be done on color capable displays.
And how may weeks will that take me - after I leared the basics of TPU
programming?
Post by Bob Koehler
The fact that
no one has bothered has to do with the value of using a superior
editor and superior programming languages that don't need such crutches.
As said that elsewhere: Any program or programing language not actively
developed will not stay superior for ever. Personlay I think that
TPU/EVE/LSEdit has allready been overtaken about 5 to 10 years ago.

Apart from that: those in our team who want the named features either use
Vim or Ms-Windows UltraEdit (copying the sources back and forth from VMS).



Martin
--
mailto://***@users.sourceforge.net
Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com
P. Sture
2007-08-12 08:21:44 UTC
Permalink
I never got Eve or LsEdit to display Black on Bright White - at least not
with the DecWindows interface. Both use some ugly green from the Motif
colour scheme.
Are you using traditional DECwindows or CDE? I did manage once to get
block on white for DECTerm sessions in CDE, though by trial and error
using the color sliders.

<snip>
Apart from that: those in our team who want the named features either use
Vim or Ms-Windows UltraEdit (copying the sources back and forth from VMS).
Trust me. If you had been using either EDIT/EDT or TPU with the EDT
keypad for as long as many of us here have, you'd be transferring
Windows files to a VMS system to do your editing, not the other way
around! (And yes, I have used UltraEdit on Windows, though I preferred a
similar offering called TextPad myself.)
--
Paul Sture

Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks:
http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html
Martin Krischik
2007-08-12 14:26:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by P. Sture
I never got Eve or LsEdit to display Black on Bright White - at least not
with the DecWindows interface. Both use some ugly green from the Motif
colour scheme.
Are you using traditional DECwindows or CDE? I did manage once to get
block on white for DECTerm sessions in CDE, though by trial and error
using the color sliders.
Getting DecTerm to display black in bright white is not at all difficult. It
mostly works the same way you get Xterm to display black in bright white.
Just the name for the configuration file is different (DecW$DecTerminal.dat
or so). Or you use the master configuration file DecW$XDefaults.Dat.

What I meant is "SPAWN /NoWait Eve /Interface=DecWindows" or "SPAWN /NoWait
LSEdit /Interface=DecWindows". As an old time user you might consider it
strange but for learning you way around a new Editor drop down menu are
indeed very helpfull.
Post by P. Sture
Apart from that: those in our team who want the named features either use
Vim or Ms-Windows UltraEdit (copying the sources back and forth from VMS).
Trust me. If you had been using either EDIT/EDT or TPU with the EDT
keypad for as long as many of us here have, you'd be transferring
Windows files to a VMS system to do your editing, not the other way
around! (And yes, I have used UltraEdit on Windows, though I preferred a
similar offering called TextPad myself.)
I believe you. Sure for an old time user both editors must be great as they
come with a propper scripting language and after 20 years or so you must
have a few 1000 lines of TPU code to make your live easy.

Martin
--
mailto://***@users.sourceforge.net
Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com
Craig A. Berry
2007-08-12 21:53:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Krischik
Getting DecTerm to display black in bright white is not at all difficult. It
mostly works the same way you get Xterm to display black in bright white.
Just the name for the configuration file is different (DecW$DecTerminal.dat
or so). Or you use the master configuration file DecW$XDefaults.Dat.
Since it's a user preference, you might want to have lines like the
following in your user-specific file rather than assuming everyone
wants the same system-wide setting:

$ search sys$login:decw$terminal_default.dat foreground,background
DECW$TERMINAL.main.terminal.background: White
DECW$TERMINAL.main.terminal.foreground: Black
Post by Martin Krischik
What I meant is "SPAWN /NoWait Eve /Interface=DecWindows" or "SPAWN /NoWait
LSEdit /Interface=DecWindows". As an old time user you might consider it
strange but for learning you way around a new Editor drop down menu are
indeed very helpfull.
I couldn't find this documented anywhere, but if you want black text on
a white background in the Motif version of EVE/TPU, do the following:

$ copy/log sys$library:eve.dat sys$login:

Edit the eve.dat in your login directory and add the following two
lines:

Tpu*foreground: black
Tpu*background: white

Add the following line to your login.com:

$ DEFINE TPU$DEFAULTS SYS$LOGIN:EVE.DAT

Run your login.com or log out and log back in again. The next time you
do EDIT/DISPLAY=M, you'll see your black text on a white background.
Post by Martin Krischik
Post by P. Sture
Post by Martin Krischik
Apart from that: those in our team who want the named features either use
Vim or Ms-Windows UltraEdit (copying the sources back and forth from VMS).
You may want to look into NetBeans or Distributed NetBeans if the goal
is to edit OpenVMS files in an environment that has all the pointy,
clicky, plugin-aware. color-enabled features and that runs on OpenVMS or
other platforms or (in the case of the distributed version) OpenVMS in
conjunction with other platforms:

http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/netbeans/

There is also jEdit. Not sure about Eclipse, but there are likely
other options if you go looking for them.
Post by Martin Krischik
Post by P. Sture
Trust me. If you had been using either EDIT/EDT or TPU with the EDT
keypad for as long as many of us here have, you'd be transferring
Windows files to a VMS system to do your editing, not the other way
around!
HP's NetBeans project has a widget they call the old-timers' plug-in --
no wait, they actually call it the "EDT Editor Keybindings Module":

http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/netbeans/modules.html#edt

I've never used it, but it's supposed to work anywhere you run NetBeans
(i.e., not just on OpenVMS).
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Martin Krischik
2007-08-13 06:59:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Martin Krischik
What I meant is "SPAWN /NoWait Eve /Interface=DecWindows" or "SPAWN /NoWait
LSEdit /Interface=DecWindows". As an old time user you might consider it
strange but for learning you way around a new Editor drop down menu are
indeed very helpfull.
I couldn't find this documented anywhere, but if you want black text on
Edit the eve.dat in your login directory and add the following two
Tpu*foreground: black
Tpu*background: white
$ DEFINE TPU$DEFAULTS SYS$LOGIN:EVE.DAT
Run your login.com or log out and log back in again. The next time you
do EDIT/DISPLAY=M, you'll see your black text on a white background.
Thanks, I added it to our company internal Wiki - might be helpfull.

Martin
--
mailto://***@users.sourceforge.net
Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com
P. Sture
2007-08-13 11:58:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Martin Krischik
Getting DecTerm to display black in bright white is not at all difficult. It
mostly works the same way you get Xterm to display black in bright white.
Just the name for the configuration file is different (DecW$DecTerminal.dat
or so). Or you use the master configuration file DecW$XDefaults.Dat.
Since it's a user preference, you might want to have lines like the
following in your user-specific file rather than assuming everyone
$ search sys$login:decw$terminal_default.dat foreground,background
DECW$TERMINAL.main.terminal.background: White
DECW$TERMINAL.main.terminal.foreground: Black
Post by Martin Krischik
What I meant is "SPAWN /NoWait Eve /Interface=DecWindows" or "SPAWN /NoWait
LSEdit /Interface=DecWindows". As an old time user you might consider it
strange but for learning you way around a new Editor drop down menu are
indeed very helpfull.
I couldn't find this documented anywhere, but if you want black text on
Edit the eve.dat in your login directory and add the following two
Tpu*foreground: black
Tpu*background: white
$ DEFINE TPU$DEFAULTS SYS$LOGIN:EVE.DAT
Run your login.com or log out and log back in again. The next time you
do EDIT/DISPLAY=M, you'll see your black text on a white background.
Post by Martin Krischik
Post by P. Sture
Post by Martin Krischik
Apart from that: those in our team who want the named features either use
Vim or Ms-Windows UltraEdit (copying the sources back and forth from VMS).
You may want to look into NetBeans or Distributed NetBeans if the goal
is to edit OpenVMS files in an environment that has all the pointy,
clicky, plugin-aware. color-enabled features and that runs on OpenVMS or
other platforms or (in the case of the distributed version) OpenVMS in
http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/netbeans/
There is also jEdit. Not sure about Eclipse, but there are likely
other options if you go looking for them.
Post by Martin Krischik
Post by P. Sture
Trust me. If you had been using either EDIT/EDT or TPU with the EDT
keypad for as long as many of us here have, you'd be transferring
Windows files to a VMS system to do your editing, not the other way
around!
HP's NetBeans project has a widget they call the old-timers' plug-in --
http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/netbeans/modules.html#edt
I've never used it, but it's supposed to work anywhere you run NetBeans
(i.e., not just on OpenVMS).
Thanks for the tips Craig. Much appreciated (in spite of the reference
to "old-timers" :-) )
--
Paul Sture

Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks:
http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html
P. Sture
2007-08-13 11:39:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Krischik
Post by P. Sture
I never got Eve or LsEdit to display Black on Bright White - at least not
with the DecWindows interface. Both use some ugly green from the Motif
colour scheme.
Are you using traditional DECwindows or CDE? I did manage once to get
block on white for DECTerm sessions in CDE, though by trial and error
using the color sliders.
Getting DecTerm to display black in bright white is not at all difficult. It
mostly works the same way you get Xterm to display black in bright white.
Just the name for the configuration file is different (DecW$DecTerminal.dat
or so). Or you use the master configuration file DecW$XDefaults.Dat.
What I meant is "SPAWN /NoWait Eve /Interface=DecWindows" or "SPAWN /NoWait
LSEdit /Interface=DecWindows". As an old time user you might consider it
strange but for learning you way around a new Editor drop down menu are
indeed very helpfull.
Understood. It can be easy to forget what it is like for a new user.
Post by Martin Krischik
Post by P. Sture
Apart from that: those in our team who want the named features either use
Vim or Ms-Windows UltraEdit (copying the sources back and forth from VMS).
Trust me. If you had been using either EDIT/EDT or TPU with the EDT
keypad for as long as many of us here have, you'd be transferring
Windows files to a VMS system to do your editing, not the other way
around! (And yes, I have used UltraEdit on Windows, though I preferred a
similar offering called TextPad myself.)
I believe you. Sure for an old time user both editors must be great as they
come with a propper scripting language and after 20 years or so you must
have a few 1000 lines of TPU code to make your live easy.
It may surprise you, but I don't have lots of TPU code. I long ago
decided to keep to just a few key shortcuts. I was doing a lot of
troubleshooting on customer systems, so made sure I could work on
vanilla installations.

Incidentally, the same goes for DCL. A former colleague told me a tale
of trying to work on a brand new system, and he'd forgotten how to work
on VMS without his own customizations! His solution was to write an
assembler program to transfer his stuff across a serial line... :-)
--
Paul Sture

Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks:
http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html
Martin Krischik
2007-08-13 15:13:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by P. Sture
It may surprise you, but I don't have lots of TPU code. I long ago
decided to keep to just a few key shortcuts. I was doing a lot of
troubleshooting on customer systems, so made sure I could work on
vanilla installations.
Incidentally, the same goes for DCL. A former colleague told me a tale
of trying to work on a brand new system, and he'd forgotten how to work
on VMS without his own customizations! His solution was to write an
assembler program to transfer his stuff across a serial line... :-)
Yes you always have to balance between working faster with good
customization and been able to work on a vanilla system.

For me: I just created a "fast installation pack" to get me up an
running on a new system in no time.

Martin
--
mailto://***@users.sourceforge.net
Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com
P. Sture
2007-08-08 13:30:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Krischik
Post by Bob Koehler
As many products in many industries have proven, being stable is not
the same as being dead.
Depends on your definition on dead and stable. Mine is defined around the
German proverb "Stillstand ist Rückschritt" - which translates to "To stand
still is to go back" (because everybody else around you move foreward).
Which in turn means that to keep stable you have to move foreward at a
moderate rate and if you don't move foreward at all you are - or soon will
be - dead.
Software is usually a compromise. Getting it right can be knowing when
to stop.
--
Paul Sture

Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks:
http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html
Martin Krischik
2007-08-09 09:05:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by P. Sture
Post by Martin Krischik
Post by Bob Koehler
As many products in many industries have proven, being stable is not
the same as being dead.
Depends on your definition on dead and stable. Mine is defined around the
German proverb "Stillstand ist Rückschritt" - which translates to "To stand
still is to go back" (because everybody else around you move forward).
Which in turn means that to keep stable you have to move forward at a
moderate rate and if you don't move forward at all you are - or soon will
be - dead.
Software is usually a compromise. Getting it right can be knowing when
to stop.
I think you missed the point of "Stillstand ist Rückschritt". You can't
stop because everybody else moves.

Or to put it different: There are two ways of stopping:

1) Absolute - then the majority of the industry moves passed you and you
soon are left behind.
2) Relative - You move forward at the average rate of the rest of the
industry.

And you can look at it any way you like: If you choose option 1 then you
will become obsolete - depending on which part of the industry it will
happen in 5, 10 or 20 years. But it will happen.

As for the topic: Our two newest team members have chosen Vim over Eve
or LSEdit.

Martin
--
mailto://***@users.sourceforge.net
Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com
P. Sture
2007-08-10 07:37:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Krischik
Post by P. Sture
Post by Martin Krischik
Post by Bob Koehler
As many products in many industries have proven, being stable is not
the same as being dead.
Depends on your definition on dead and stable. Mine is defined around the
German proverb "Stillstand ist Rückschritt" - which translates to "To stand
still is to go back" (because everybody else around you move forward).
Which in turn means that to keep stable you have to move forward at a
moderate rate and if you don't move forward at all you are - or soon will
be - dead.
Software is usually a compromise. Getting it right can be knowing when
to stop.
I think you missed the point of "Stillstand ist Rückschritt". You can't
stop because everybody else moves.
No I don't think I missed the point. I'm saying that I'd rather that
OpenVMS Engineering put their efforts into other areas.
Post by Martin Krischik
1) Absolute - then the majority of the industry moves passed you and you
soon are left behind.
2) Relative - You move forward at the average rate of the rest of the
industry.
And you can look at it any way you like: If you choose option 1 then you
will become obsolete - depending on which part of the industry it will
happen in 5, 10 or 20 years. But it will happen.
But what constitutes real progress? Given the choice between putting
colours in an editor or improving the BACKUP utility, I'd pick the
latter every time.
Post by Martin Krischik
As for the topic: Our two newest team members have chosen Vim over Eve
or LSEdit.
The choice of an editor is always personal, so if that's what they
prefer, it's fine by me.
--
Paul Sture

Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks:
http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html
Paul Raulerson
2007-08-10 16:07:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Koehler
If you want TPU to colorize your text, you can write the TPU code to
do it. Yes, it can be done on color capable displays. The fact that
no one has bothered has to do with the value of using a superior
editor and superior programming languages that don't need such crutches.
Occams Razor:

Perhaps the fact nobody has "bothered" to do is because it is viewed as
primitive and people just go use another editor, or are driven to use another
platform which does support more user friendly tools.

Or you may be right.
<shrug>
Martin Krischik
2007-08-13 07:02:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Raulerson
Post by Bob Koehler
If you want TPU to colorize your text, you can write the TPU code to
do it. Yes, it can be done on color capable displays. The fact that
no one has bothered has to do with the value of using a superior
editor and superior programming languages that don't need such crutches.
Perhaps the fact nobody has "bothered" to do is because it is viewed as
primitive and people just go use another editor, or are driven to use another
platform which does support more user friendly tools.
Or you may be right.
<shrug>
Most likely both - depending on when the user started to use VMS.

Martin
--
mailto://***@users.sourceforge.net
Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com
Loading...