Discussion:
History of VMS and related operating systems
(too old to reply)
UnderMine
2007-02-28 15:51:44 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

I am currently updating my graphical timeline of Non-Unix operating
systems and would be interested in any additional information about
VMS releases. I am especally interested in the release and history of
VAXELN and MicroVMS as I have been unable to get reliable information
on these.

The current information I have on VMS, OpenVMS, MicroVMS, VAXELN and
FreeVMS is here :-
http://www.oshistory.net/metadot/index.pl?id=2203

My graphical timeline is available here but does not currently include
all the releases mentioned above :-
http://www.oshistory.net/metadot/index.pl?id=2165

Thanks for your help

Paddy
Jilly
2007-02-28 15:59:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by UnderMine
Hi,
I am currently updating my graphical timeline of Non-Unix operating
systems and would be interested in any additional information about
VMS releases. I am especally interested in the release and history of
VAXELN and MicroVMS as I have been unable to get reliable information
on these.
The current information I have on VMS, OpenVMS, MicroVMS, VAXELN and
FreeVMS is here :-
http://www.oshistory.net/metadot/index.pl?id=2203
My graphical timeline is available here but does not currently include
all the releases mentioned above :-
http://www.oshistory.net/metadot/index.pl?id=2165
Thanks for your help
Paddy
You want to look at [OpenVMS] CPU Operating System Versions and Release
Dates Table & Flowchart
http://h18000.www1.hp.com/support/asktima/operating_systems/009B59C8-13ADE78F-1C02A1.html
UnderMine
2007-02-28 16:19:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jilly
You want to look at [OpenVMS] CPU Operating System Versions and Release
Dates Table & Flowchart
http://h18000.www1.hp.com/support/asktima/operating_systems/009B59C8-...
Very interesting. It is a lot clearer as far as relationships than the
document I was using :-
http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/os/openvms-release-history.html

It also mentions Desktop-VMS I had not heard of that one before and
unfortunately any search for it is swamped by desktop VMs.

Thanks for the help.

Paddy
Nigel Barker
2007-03-02 07:58:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by UnderMine
It also mentions Desktop-VMS I had not heard of that one before and
unfortunately any search for it is swamped by desktop VMs.
IIRC Desktop-VMS was a special packaging of VMS for MicroVAX systems with very
small disk drives where part of the OS was run from a CD.

--
Nigel Barker
Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur
Bob Koehler
2007-03-02 13:49:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nigel Barker
Post by UnderMine
It also mentions Desktop-VMS I had not heard of that one before and
unfortunately any search for it is swamped by desktop VMs.
IIRC Desktop-VMS was a special packaging of VMS for MicroVAX systems with very
small disk drives where part of the OS was run from a CD.
Yes, and Desktop-VMS could not join a VAXcluster. So we dropped it
and reused the hardware as cluster satellites.
UnderMine
2007-03-03 10:53:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Nigel Barker
Post by UnderMine
It also mentions Desktop-VMS I had not heard of that one before and
unfortunately any search for it is swamped by desktop VMs.
IIRC Desktop-VMS was a special packaging of VMS for MicroVAX systems with very
small disk drives where part of the OS was run from a CD.
Yes, and Desktop-VMS could not join a VAXcluster. So we dropped it
and reused the hardware as cluster satellites.
OK so I need to add Desktop-VMS to the mix. You can guess the next
questions.
When did Desktop-VMS diverge from the main tree?
What did it branch from VMS or MicroVMS?
and finally
What versions were released when?

Thanks to everybody for your help in discovering and clarifying
everything so far.

Paddy
Nigel Barker
2007-03-02 14:32:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by UnderMine
It also mentions Desktop-VMS I had not heard of that one before and
unfortunately any search for it is swamped by desktop VMs.
IIRC Desktop-VMS was a special packaging of VMS for MicroVAX systems with very
small disk drives where part of the OS was run from a CD.

--
Nigel Barker
Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur
UnderMine
2007-02-28 21:49:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jilly
You want to look at [OpenVMS] CPU Operating System Versions and Release
Dates Table & Flowchart
http://h18000.www1.hp.com/support/asktima/operating_systems/009B59C8-...
Unfortunately this diagram only helps me so far in the history of VMS.
It still leaves me with a couple of my questions as neither MircoVMS
or VAXELN are mentioned.

As far as I am able to determine MicroVMS and VMS releases were not
done at the same time even though they seem to have very similar
version numbering. So what exactly is the relationship between the VMS
and MicroVMS?

Thanks for the help

Paddy
John Reagan
2007-02-28 23:13:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by UnderMine
Post by Jilly
You want to look at [OpenVMS] CPU Operating System Versions and Release
Dates Table & Flowchart
http://h18000.www1.hp.com/support/asktima/operating_systems/009B59C8-...
Unfortunately this diagram only helps me so far in the history of VMS.
It still leaves me with a couple of my questions as neither MircoVMS
or VAXELN are mentioned.
As far as I am able to determine MicroVMS and VMS releases were not
done at the same time even though they seem to have very similar
version numbering. So what exactly is the relationship between the VMS
and MicroVMS?
Thanks for the help
Paddy
Seems to be that MicroVMS was more of a packaging concept. The
different release schedules just allowed subset testing to be done. We
wouldn't test MicroVMS on large VAXen and wouldn't test full VMS on
smaller VAXen. It also had some stuff for small system
configurations/distributions. VMSTAILOR was a nightmare for me since I
was required to test the Pascal compiler with different subsets tailored
on/off.
--
John Reagan
HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO/COBOL for OpenVMS Project Leader
Hewlett-Packard Company
UnderMine
2007-03-01 12:05:51 UTC
Permalink
This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.
JF Mezei
2007-03-01 15:03:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by UnderMine
Anyone know what versions of MicroVMS were released and when? I have
managed to find hints as to some versions but none are verifiable in
the same was as VMS releases are.
I am aware of MicroVMS 4.6 and 4.7 . Afterwards, Microvax customers were
given the full VMS at 5.0. MicroVMS was not produced for 5.* releases.

There may have been earlier releases of MicroVMS.
vaxorcist
2007-03-01 19:05:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by UnderMine
Anyone know what versions of MicroVMS were released and when?
IMHO there were only V4.x versions of MicroVMS, none before and none
after.

In times of VMS V3.x (and earlier) there were no MicroVAXen yet, so
there was no reason for a different line.
Post by UnderMine
From V5.0 onwards you could still buy a smaller set of manuals
(similar to the MicroVMS one), but there were no MicroVMS versions any
longer. I can very well remember that because I started my VMS career
with VMS V5.0 :-))

Regards

Ulli
Bob Koehler
2007-03-01 21:28:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by UnderMine
MicroVMS 1.0 - original release
MicroVMS 4.x - numbers synced with VMS - pritty well documented but
sometimes hard to date.
MicroVMS 5.4-1
http://mri.if.sc.usp.br/download/publicacoes/pdf/mateustese.pdf -
dated 1995 but reference quoted dated 1988? - Based on the following
info this could well be an error.
This looks odd. Our MicroVAX systems went from MicroVMS 4.7 to
VMS 5.0. It could have been true (DEC did stranger games with
version numbering), but by 1995 VMS 6.x was current.
UnderMine
2007-03-01 22:43:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Koehler
Post by UnderMine
MicroVMS 1.0 - original release
http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/wiz_0739.html
http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?&verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA149375

MicroVMS 1.0 was the original MicroVMS released with the MicroVAX I if
this information is correct.
Post by Bob Koehler
Post by UnderMine
MicroVMS 4.x - numbers synced with VMS - pritty well documented but
sometimes hard to date.
Still looking for confirmation of all the dates
Post by Bob Koehler
Post by UnderMine
MicroVMS 5.4-1
http://mri.if.sc.usp.br/download/publicacoes/pdf/mateustese.pdf-
dated 1995 but reference quoted dated 1988? - Based on the following
info this could well be an error.
This looks odd. Our MicroVAX systems went from MicroVMS 4.7 to
VMS 5.0. It could have been true (DEC did stranger games with
version numbering), but by 1995 VMS 6.x was current.
I agree the whole MicroVMS 5.x looks odd and I am not happy about any
them.

Paddy
vaxorcist
2007-03-02 10:25:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by UnderMine
Post by UnderMine
MicroVMS 4.x - numbers synced with VMS - pritty well documented but
sometimes hard to date.
Still looking for confirmation of all the dates
As to help clearing sight about VMS / MicroVMS versions:

I've looked into some VMS V4.x tapes and found out the following:

Version Type Date written MicroVAX support
V4.0 Full 23-SEP-1984 NO
V4.1 Update <missing> ??
V4.2 Full 12-JUL-1985 NO
V4.3 Update 9-JAN-1986 VMS043.A-COMMON FILES / VMS043.B-VMS
ONLY / Saveset VMS043.C-UVMS ONLY
V4.4 Full 30-MAR-1986 YES (integral part of all Savesets)
V4.5 Update 26-SEP-1986 same as with V4.3 (individual
Savesets)
V4.6 Full 15-JUN-1987 same as with V4.4 (integral part of
all Savesets)
V4.7 Update 29-OCT-1987 same as with V4.3 (individual
Savesets)

That seems to me a rather good proof that MicroVMS versions are (at
least from V4.3 onwards) functionally equal
(to the extend possible on MicroVAXen) to the corresponding VMS
versions.

Distribution tapes were identical, whereas the RX50 floppy sets most
probably were not.

Besides, what would you consider a "Release Date"?
- A date given in an official DEC announcement
- The Release Date of the Version Release Notes Manual
- The date when distribution media was written
- ...

I'm still looking for the following versions:

- VMS V4.1
- VMS V4.2 MUP (Mandatory Update)
- VMS 4.3A
- VMS 4.5A
- VMS 4.5B
- VMS 4.5C
- VMS 4.6A
- VMS 4.6B
- VMS 4.6C
- VMS 4.7A

Can anybody help ???

Has anyone got any MicroVMS V1.0 media or software ???

Regards

Ulli

P.S.
DEC called MicroVMS "retired" from VMS 5.0 onwards
UnderMine
2007-03-03 11:21:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by vaxorcist
Besides, what would you consider a "Release Date"?
- A date given in an official DEC announcement
- The Release Date of the Version Release Notes Manual
- The date when distribution media was written
- ...
Previously I have been trying to locate any dates at all ;)
But since I restarted the project in January I have been documenting
Announced, Released and Withdrawn dates where I know them. For the VMS
pages I have Added another column 'built' but would 'tapes dated' be
better?
Usually there is only the press releases/announcements to go on
sometimes these indicate that the software is available now, sometimes
they give a date in the future and if they are from Microsoft you have
no idea (Windows 4 Chicago announced 4/7/1992, Windows 95 Beta
9/8/1994, Windows 95 Released 24/8/1995 but then it needed service
pack 1 31/12/1995 and we won't even mention Vista :( 2002-2007 )
Thanks for all your help

Paddy
vaxorcist
2007-03-03 13:42:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by UnderMine
For the VMS
pages I have Added another column 'built' but would 'tapes dated' be
better?
To be precise (or in VMS nomenclatura) 'date of BACKUP Saveset'
Post by UnderMine
Thanks for all your help
It is a pleasure! :-))

Ulli
John Wallace
2007-03-01 12:33:18 UTC
Permalink
"John Reagan" <***@hp.com> wrote in message news:z0oFh.600$%***@news.cpqcorp.net...
<snip>
Post by John Reagan
Seems to be that MicroVMS was more of a packaging concept.
<snip>

Indeed.

From my end-user point of view, one of the nicest things about MicroVMS was
the radically different documentation. VMS's traditional documentation was
guaranteed to cover anything you were ever likely to know, and a shelf-full
of stuff you probably wouldn't ever need, but to achieve anything useful
you'd often need a desktop's worth of full size manuals. MicroVMS
documentation had a different approach, one which I liked; as I recall, all
the commonly used stuff was covered in a couple of relatively small manuals,
which were often task-oriented rather than the reference-oriented style of
most of the VMS docs.

Wrt VAXELN: If there are specific VAXELN questions to be answered, I may
have a go, but my VAXELN experience started around V4 so I'm not in a good
position to say much about history, other than the usual widely known
stuff - VAXELN was a host/target toolset for relatively lightweight but
potentially sophisticated VAX-based real-time applications. It intentionally
does not attempt to provide VMS-like design concepts (eg VAXELN doesn't have
ASTs). Unusually for the time, VAXELN had transparent networking built in
for inter-process communication, and it also had a concept equivalent to
what became known as "threads". Many popular VAXes and devices were
supported on the target system.

Initially only Pascal was supported (initially not VAX Pascal but an
ELN-specific version). Additional languages were added over time, and in
particular comprehensive Ada support was available (working with the same
fine VMS debugger that VMS folks were used to, rather than the previous
VAXELN-specific debugger). C and Fortran were probably supported too (you
could certainly make them work). Some of the language-specific stuff would
have been done by people who may still read this newsgroup.

Later versions of VAXELN had decent X-windows support (client, server, or
both), a capability which was used in some of DEC's VAX-based Xwindows
terminals and in the ELN Window System.

An optional add-on to VAXELN was a relational database API, Rdb/ELN, which
was basically (as the name implies) RdB for VAXELN.

Another optional add-on to VAXELN was a source distribution of the VAXELN
runtime, which would reveal lots of details of how the stuff worked. The
VAXELN source kit wasn't on the Condist CDs and as far as I know not many
people had one.

Basic VAXELN documentation included a "VAXELN Technical Summary" and
"Introduction To VAXELN" which might be helpful here, depending on what the
"history" exercise hopes to achieve. The "Introduction" was part of the
online docs and so should be on a VAX Consolidated Documentation CD from the
relevant era, not sure about the "Technical Summary". Google finds an
"Introduction" at
http://www.sysworks.com.au/disk$cddoc04jan11/decw$book/aa%2djl11d%2d01%5f%5f
a01%5fb2.p5.decw$book#1

Another relevant piece of documentation might be the excellent VAX Realtime
User's Guide, EK-VAXRT-UG001 (1986!) which covers using VAX for realtime
applications on both VMS and VAXELN, in some considerable depth. Not
immediately locatable online.

VAXELN is the kind of thing that ought to have had a Digital Technical
Journal article (or several) written about it but I don't recall any; anyone
got a comprehensive DTJ index e.g. was there an index on the DTJ CD from the
VMS boot camp, does it include any VAXELN articles?

VAXELN was never ported to Alpha. For Alpha, DEC chose to "partner" with
Wind River Systems to have WRS's VxWorks ported to Alpha, with support for a
small number of OEM-specific board-level Alpha products and a tiny subset of
WRS's mainstream VxWorks supported boards. A documented and supported
"VAXELN API layer for VxWorks" was offered to (allegedly) simplify migration
of applications (so long as they were written in C). But with VxWorks hosted
on Unix vs VAXELN hosted on VMS, and with almost no commonality between the
two products' architectures except claimed support for a variety of Posix
APIs , anything non-trivial simply wasn't sensibly portable between the two
environments, and a re-design would almost certainly be a more sensible
option. Some customers needing the power of Alpha in the context of
real-time systems chose to use DEC OSF/1 (or Tru64 or whatever it was called
at the time its respectable RT stuff came out) instead of VxWorks, subject
to practicality constraints (like having a disk available).

It's no secret where one of the original VAXELN architects ended up, right -
taking some VAXELN concepts, putting some PC-friendly stuff around them, and
labelling the result Windows NT ? I don't know where the remaining VAXELN
team ended up - they were sold off from Compaq when Digital's OEM+Realtime
group were sold to SMART Modular Technology and I lost track of them after
that (I believe that at one point some of the OEM+RT group ended up being
owned by Motorola...). Some folks are still using VAXELN but they tend to be
a bit "niche", and you won't often read about it. It's often the kind of
stuff that goes in and then "just works" for years.

Hth
John
Bill Todd
2007-03-01 12:49:02 UTC
Permalink
John Wallace wrote:

...
Post by John Wallace
An optional add-on to VAXELN was a relational database API, Rdb/ELN, which
was basically (as the name implies) RdB for VAXELN.
My impression was that 'Rdb/ELN', while of course compatible with the
DSRI, was not Rdb at all, but rather Jim Starkey's database that later
became Interbase.

- bill
John Wallace
2007-03-02 10:37:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Todd
...
Post by John Wallace
An optional add-on to VAXELN was a relational database API, Rdb/ELN, which
was basically (as the name implies) RdB for VAXELN.
My impression was that 'Rdb/ELN', while of course compatible with the
DSRI, was not Rdb at all, but rather Jim Starkey's database that later
became Interbase.
- bill
Thanks for that Bill, I had (relatively recently) heard about the Interbase
connection but couldn't remember (or quickly verify) which db it was...

From the point of view of an Rdb/ELN user/programmer, it wasn't supposed to
matter very much what magick was occurring on the far side of the DSRI
layer, hence my user-oriented comment, but the detail of what goes on inside
is important for some purposes. Indeed depending on the exact purpose of the
exercise (which we still don't know) the details of who did what may be
equally important.
vaxorcist
2007-03-01 19:54:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Wallace
Another relevant piece of documentation might be the excellent VAX Realtime
User's Guide, EK-VAXRT-UG001 (1986!) which covers using VAX for realtime
applications on both VMS and VAXELN, in some considerable depth. Not
immediately locatable online.
The AA-H784A-TE VAX-VMS Real-Time User's Guide (March 1980 !, part of
the VMS V2.0 documentation) is currently being processed and will be
available on bitsavers later this year or on direct request to me. But
back then (1980) there was no VAXELN yet.

Regards

Ulli
t***@gmail.com
2015-01-31 17:34:37 UTC
Permalink
Some years have gone by, but if anyone is still interested in this topic I would be glad to help with some history. I was the technical writer in Cutler's DECwest team and so the author of the various original Elan books. (The product was named Elan by the team and changed by the marketing folks to VAXELN, out of trademark fear.)

Dave went on to Microsoft and is still there, as far as I know. So, I believe is Darryl Havens, who wrote the Files-11 compatible file system and the System Builder utility. Roger Heinen, the project leader, went on to a number of executive positions, including at Apple and Microsoft, and is now a successful venture capitalist. The Elan Pascal compiler was developed by Don McLaren and Jay Palmer. I am not sure where Jay went. Don worked at Microsoft for many years. Reid Brown was the product manager. The networking system was developed by Len Kawell, who is still an entrepreneur in the Seattle area. Len and I and Mary Ellen Heinen founded one of the first successful ebook companies, called Glassbook, in 1998-2000. I currently reside in a semi-retired state in Lexington, Massachusetts.

Elan Pascal, and most other parts of the product, were a team design effort by the small group.

The product debuted at DECUS in Las Vegas in (if I remember correctly) 1982. Len Kawell wrote a great demo app that featured a toy robot solving the Towers of Hanoi puzzle. I wrote one, using data I obtained from a PDP-11 developer, Ralph Cherubini, which played minuets on a small music synthesizer. I needed to keep the volume down, because the minuets started to get on everyone's nerve around the DECUS booth. Dave didn't want to go to DECUS (he tended to avoid public appearances, so fairly few people had met him personally). I went with Dave's hotel reservation, and people standing nearby were wowed and amazed to hear who was checking in. So, I let an opportunity slip through my fingers to impersonate him. I could not have kept it up for more than a few seconds anyway.

Tom Diaz
Lexington, Massachusetts
Post by John Wallace
<snip>
Post by John Reagan
Seems to be that MicroVMS was more of a packaging concept.
<snip>
Indeed.
From my end-user point of view, one of the nicest things about MicroVMS was
the radically different documentation. VMS's traditional documentation was
guaranteed to cover anything you were ever likely to know, and a shelf-full
of stuff you probably wouldn't ever need, but to achieve anything useful
you'd often need a desktop's worth of full size manuals. MicroVMS
documentation had a different approach, one which I liked; as I recall, all
the commonly used stuff was covered in a couple of relatively small manuals,
which were often task-oriented rather than the reference-oriented style of
most of the VMS docs.
Wrt VAXELN: If there are specific VAXELN questions to be answered, I may
have a go, but my VAXELN experience started around V4 so I'm not in a good
position to say much about history, other than the usual widely known
stuff - VAXELN was a host/target toolset for relatively lightweight but
potentially sophisticated VAX-based real-time applications. It intentionally
does not attempt to provide VMS-like design concepts (eg VAXELN doesn't have
ASTs). Unusually for the time, VAXELN had transparent networking built in
for inter-process communication, and it also had a concept equivalent to
what became known as "threads". Many popular VAXes and devices were
supported on the target system.
Initially only Pascal was supported (initially not VAX Pascal but an
ELN-specific version). Additional languages were added over time, and in
particular comprehensive Ada support was available (working with the same
fine VMS debugger that VMS folks were used to, rather than the previous
VAXELN-specific debugger). C and Fortran were probably supported too (you
could certainly make them work). Some of the language-specific stuff would
have been done by people who may still read this newsgroup.
Later versions of VAXELN had decent X-windows support (client, server, or
both), a capability which was used in some of DEC's VAX-based Xwindows
terminals and in the ELN Window System.
An optional add-on to VAXELN was a relational database API, Rdb/ELN, which
was basically (as the name implies) RdB for VAXELN.
Another optional add-on to VAXELN was a source distribution of the VAXELN
runtime, which would reveal lots of details of how the stuff worked. The
VAXELN source kit wasn't on the Condist CDs and as far as I know not many
people had one.
Basic VAXELN documentation included a "VAXELN Technical Summary" and
"Introduction To VAXELN" which might be helpful here, depending on what the
"history" exercise hopes to achieve. The "Introduction" was part of the
online docs and so should be on a VAX Consolidated Documentation CD from the
relevant era, not sure about the "Technical Summary". Google finds an
"Introduction" at
http://www.sysworks.com.au/disk$cddoc04jan11/decw$book/aa%2djl11d%2d01%5f%5f
a01%5fb2.p5.decw$book#1
Another relevant piece of documentation might be the excellent VAX Realtime
User's Guide, EK-VAXRT-UG001 (1986!) which covers using VAX for realtime
applications on both VMS and VAXELN, in some considerable depth. Not
immediately locatable online.
VAXELN is the kind of thing that ought to have had a Digital Technical
Journal article (or several) written about it but I don't recall any; anyone
got a comprehensive DTJ index e.g. was there an index on the DTJ CD from the
VMS boot camp, does it include any VAXELN articles?
VAXELN was never ported to Alpha. For Alpha, DEC chose to "partner" with
Wind River Systems to have WRS's VxWorks ported to Alpha, with support for a
small number of OEM-specific board-level Alpha products and a tiny subset of
WRS's mainstream VxWorks supported boards. A documented and supported
"VAXELN API layer for VxWorks" was offered to (allegedly) simplify migration
of applications (so long as they were written in C). But with VxWorks hosted
on Unix vs VAXELN hosted on VMS, and with almost no commonality between the
two products' architectures except claimed support for a variety of Posix
APIs , anything non-trivial simply wasn't sensibly portable between the two
environments, and a re-design would almost certainly be a more sensible
option. Some customers needing the power of Alpha in the context of
real-time systems chose to use DEC OSF/1 (or Tru64 or whatever it was called
at the time its respectable RT stuff came out) instead of VxWorks, subject
to practicality constraints (like having a disk available).
It's no secret where one of the original VAXELN architects ended up, right -
taking some VAXELN concepts, putting some PC-friendly stuff around them, and
labelling the result Windows NT ? I don't know where the remaining VAXELN
team ended up - they were sold off from Compaq when Digital's OEM+Realtime
group were sold to SMART Modular Technology and I lost track of them after
that (I believe that at one point some of the OEM+RT group ended up being
owned by Motorola...). Some folks are still using VAXELN but they tend to be
a bit "niche", and you won't often read about it. It's often the kind of
stuff that goes in and then "just works" for years.
Hth
John
vaxorcist
2007-03-01 08:01:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by UnderMine
So what exactly is the relationship between the VMS
and MicroVMS?
Taken from:
Software Product Description
PRODUCT NAME: MicroVMS Operating System, Version 4.7 SPD 28.05.10
AE-DD57K-TE December 1987

"MicroVMS is fully compatible with VMS, and is built from the same
source files as VMS. MicroVMS provides the same features as VAX/VMS on
any other single VAX
processor with the exception of compatibility mode. MicroVMS is VAX/
VMS repackaged for the micro-computer environment.
...
The MicroVAX architecture is a subset of the full VAX architecture,
consequently some instructions are not implemented in the hardware.
MicroVMS provides instruction emulation for all native VAX
instructions not implemented in the MicroVAX hardware. This emulation
is totally transparent to the user."

Regards

Ulli
JF Mezei
2007-03-01 14:59:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by vaxorcist
"MicroVMS is fully compatible with VMS, and is built from the same
source files as VMS. MicroVMS provides the same features as VAX/VMS on
any other single VAX
processor with the exception of compatibility mode. MicroVMS is VAX/
VMS repackaged for the micro-computer environment.
It was all about packaging. MicroVMS did NOT include all the same features.
Some you could buy separately (such as DEcnet). It also came with
MicroDocumentation that was , well, not up to DEC standards of quality.

For instance, SET HOST was not available on microvms, so SET HOST/DTE to
access a serial port was not available.
Bob Koehler
2007-03-01 21:25:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by UnderMine
As far as I am able to determine MicroVMS and VMS releases were not
done at the same time even though they seem to have very similar
version numbering. So what exactly is the relationship between the VMS
and MicroVMS?
MicroVMS was the version of VMS originally shipped for MicroVAX
computers. It was later merged into the normal VMS product. There
were very few differences except for what VAX models it would boot on.

Several features, like compressed help libraries, were added to
MicroVMS/VMS so that MicroVMS could fit on the small disks originally
provided for the small computers.
Bob Koehler
2007-03-01 21:22:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by UnderMine
Hi,
I am currently updating my graphical timeline of Non-Unix operating
systems and would be interested in any additional information about
VMS releases. I am especally interested in the release and history of
VAXELN and MicroVMS as I have been unable to get reliable information
on these.
VAXEln is not VMS. It just runs on VAXes, like VMS, ULTRIX, and BSD
UNIX.
UnderMine
2007-03-06 14:25:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Koehler
Post by UnderMine
Hi,
I am currently updating my graphical timeline of Non-Unix operating
systems and would be interested in any additional information about
VMS releases. I am especally interested in the release and history of
VAXELN and MicroVMS as I have been unable to get reliable information
on these.
VAXEln is not VMS. It just runs on VAXes, like VMS, ULTRIX, and BSD
UNIX.
What exactly is the genealagy of VAXELN?
My understanding was that it originally branched from VMS and then
developed independantly.
VMS -> VAXELN (influence/code?)
VMS -> Project Mica (1986-1988) (influence/code?)
Mica -> NT (influence/code?) - http://www.businessreviewonline.com/blog/archives/2005/10/ballmer_microso.html

Does anyone have version release dates for VAXELN?

Thanks

Paddy
John Wallace
2007-03-06 19:45:43 UTC
Permalink
"UnderMine" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:***@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com...

<snip>
Post by UnderMine
What exactly is the genealagy of VAXELN?
My understanding was that it originally branched from VMS and then
developed independantly.
That's (at best) an odd way of describing things, more realistically it's
just plain wrong, sorry.
Post by UnderMine
VMS -> VAXELN (influence/code?)
VMS and VAXELN both ran on VAX. Cutler worked on (architected?) both. Beyond
that, VAXELN has little in common with VMS in terms of architecture or
heritage - VAXELN was not aimed at the VMS market and consequently it has
different goals and different architecture: intentionally it does not do
(for example) demand paging, it does not do ASTs, it does not do VMS-style
logical names, it does not do DCL, it does not do the vast majority of the
techy things which most VMS-aware folks would consider made VMS what it was.
It does understand Files11 as does VMS, it does (to an extent) understand
VMS-style UIC-based protection, it does do DECnet (and later in life it
understood TCP/IP)... VAXELN system images are built using a VAXELN-specific
build process which allows irrelevant stuff to be left out. VAXELN also does
a whole variety of RT-specific and also comms-related stuff which VMS
doesn't do, such as interapplication messaging which looks the same whether
the two apps are on the same box or different boxes - this may not be a
radical concept today but it was innovative back then.

Much (most?) of VAXELN was written in VAXELN Pascal, so although sharing of
some concepts and designs between VMS and VAXELN might have been easy
enough, sharing of actual code between VMS and VAXELN would have been
limited.

On a good day a trivial VMS application (even some non trivial ones) in
various VAXELN-supported languages might work on VAXELN, subject to
recompilation and relinking, but that wasn't really (afaik) a major design
goal (although it was sometimes very convenient). Along these lines, if I
remember rightly, some fundamental VMS system services (e.g. some date/time
stuff) were implemented on VAXELN for the user's convenience; there may have
been common code (between VMS and VAXELN) for stuff like that where it made
sense, but there weren't many examples of that kind of thing.

If you haven't already read the online "Introduction to VAXELN" referenced
earlier in this thread, it really would be worth doing so. The formatting
makes it hard going though, so if you can get hold of a hardcopy or suitable
substitute...
Post by UnderMine
VMS -> Project Mica (1986-1988) (influence/code?)
Mica -> NT (influence/code?) -
http://www.businessreviewonline.com/blog/archives/2005/10/ballmer_microso.ht
ml
There are folks reading here who know lots more about Mica than I do. There
doesn't yet seem to be much freely available and definitive info about Mica.
You probably had to be there; I wasn't (and nor was Ballmer).
Post by UnderMine
Does anyone have version release dates for VAXELN?
Not me, sorry.

Good luck anyway.
Bob Koehler
2007-03-07 19:27:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by UnderMine
What exactly is the genealagy of VAXELN?
My understanding was that it originally branched from VMS and then
developed independantly.
VMS -> VAXELN (influence/code?)
VMS -> Project Mica (1986-1988) (influence/code?)
Mica -> NT (influence/code?) - http://www.businessreviewonline.com/blog/archives/2005/10/ballmer_microso.html
MicroPower PASCAL (which ran on MicroPDP-11 and MicroVAX) begat VAXEln,
according to those who talked at DECUS. The name change was in part
due to the availability of languages other than PASCAL.

VAXEln used only two modes and VAX chips were produced for embedded
applications that supported only those two modes (and therefor
couldn't run VMS).

There was a printer vendor who worked very closely with DEC for a
while, and used VAXEln to support both their print engine and thier
LCD menu. If you looked quick,youl'd see the VAXEln version number
on the LCD durin power on boot.
UnderMine
2007-03-08 17:50:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Koehler
Post by UnderMine
What exactly is the genealagy of VAXELN?
My understanding was that it originally branched from VMS and then
developed independantly.
VMS -> VAXELN (influence/code?)
VMS -> Project Mica (1986-1988) (influence/code?)
Mica -> NT (influence/code?) -http://www.businessreviewonline.com/blog/archives/2005/10/ballmer_mic...
MicroPower PASCAL (which ran on MicroPDP-11 and MicroVAX) begat VAXEln,
according to those who talked at DECUS. The name change was in part
due to the availability of languages other than PASCAL.
VAXEln used only two modes and VAX chips were produced for embedded
applications that supported only those two modes (and therefor
couldn't run VMS).
There was a printer vendor who worked very closely with DEC for a
while, and used VAXEln to support both their print engine and thier
LCD menu. If you looked quick,youl'd see the VAXEln version number
on the LCD durin power on boot.
Based on these discussions and other information I have decided split
VAXELN out from under VMS into an new section.
http://www.oshistory.net/metadot/index.pl?id=2529

When redrawing the graphical tree I will probably replace the code
link with an influence link between VAXELN and VMS. Now was VAXELN a
direct decendant of MicroPower Pascal (rename), a new system that
reused some of the code base (fork) or just influenced by it?

I am not sure but was there any link between VAXELN and RT-11? A
number of documents mention both together but I am not sure whether
this just is because both were real time enviroments able to run
Pascal or whether there was actually a link between the two.

However drawing the tree is hard without definate dates and versions
for VAXELN/MicroPower Pascal and these are proving ellusive. I have
only been able to get indirect references to dates (i.e. documents
which mention 'requires VAXELN v2.3 or above') which give me a 'prior
to' date but are not exactly reliable.

At one point I had a referrence to VAXELN 23. Now with reflection I
believe this was someones typo of VAXELN v2.3. Can anyone confirm
this?

All additional information and comments welcome.

Thanks

Paddy
Paul Repacholi
2007-03-09 09:20:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by UnderMine
I am not sure but was there any link between VAXELN and RT-11? A
number of documents mention both together but I am not sure whether
this just is because both were real time enviroments able to run
Pascal or whether there was actually a link between the two.
VAXeln had NO predecessor in the wild. It is a totally unique OS. The
only `link' with RT was the Eln would be used in the sort of situation
the RT was used for.

It had almost nothing in common with VMS, your code lived in P1, not
P0, and you had a for then unique data/thread sharing. Also tasks
could be (almost) transparently spread over multiple systems. Oh,
and it had MSCP, DECnet etc in the standard libries ass well. Later
on, almost all of X as well.

Went like the wind! RBDEln could almost turn 50 odd RA81s to slag
running on an 8200. With CPU to spare I might add.
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Bill Gunshannon
2007-03-09 11:43:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Repacholi
VAXeln had NO predecessor in the wild. It is a totally unique OS. The
only `link' with RT was the Eln would be used in the sort of situation
the RT was used for.
Just out of curiosity, can you still get VAXeln? You can still get
RT!! :-)

bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
***@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
Bob Koehler
2007-03-09 13:47:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by UnderMine
I am not sure but was there any link between VAXELN and RT-11? A
number of documents mention both together but I am not sure whether
this just is because both were real time enviroments able to run
Pascal or whether there was actually a link between the two.
IIRC RT-11 was before MicroPower PASCAL on the PDP-11. The only
link I know of between RT-11 and VMS was the VAX-11/78x console,
which seemed to be an RT-11 derivative and used the RT-11 floppy format.
Bill Pechter
2007-03-09 20:36:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Koehler
Post by UnderMine
I am not sure but was there any link between VAXELN and RT-11? A
number of documents mention both together but I am not sure whether
this just is because both were real time enviroments able to run
Pascal or whether there was actually a link between the two.
IIRC RT-11 was before MicroPower PASCAL on the PDP-11. The only
link I know of between RT-11 and VMS was the VAX-11/78x console,
which seemed to be an RT-11 derivative and used the RT-11 floppy format.
Actually the RT11 varient lived on the 86x0 console on the T11.
The 11/78x consoles were pretty much RT11 format files -- but not the
RT11 OS.

They were pretty stupid load devices that dumped stuff into the WCS over
a simple data path and then called a simple batch command file to load
the boot code and start it.

I think the "OS" was written just for that purpose -- and it would run
in less memory than RT11 v4 required.

IIRC the 11/785 upgrade doubled the memory to from around 12k to 28k.

Bill
--
--
"When I think back on all the crap I learned in Vax school
It's a wonder I fixed anything at all." (to the tune of Kodachrome)
pechter-at-ureach.com
Bob Koehler
2007-03-12 12:14:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Pechter
Actually the RT11 varient lived on the 86x0 console on the T11.
The 11/78x consoles were pretty much RT11 format files -- but not the
RT11 OS.
IIRC 8600 started life with the intention of being the VAX 11/790,
but marketing changed it. The 86x0 had a lot in common with 11/78x.

And the OS seemed to relate to the real RT-11 in a manner that
RSX-11F (TOPS-20 front ends) related to RSX-11M, similar, but not the
same.
UnderMine
2007-03-12 15:04:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Bill Pechter
Actually the RT11 varient lived on the 86x0 console on the T11.
The 11/78x consoles were pretty much RT11 format files -- but not the
RT11 OS.
IIRC 8600 started life with the intention of being the VAX 11/790,
but marketing changed it. The 86x0 had a lot in common with 11/78x.
And the OS seemed to relate to the real RT-11 in a manner that
RSX-11F (TOPS-20 front ends) related to RSX-11M, similar, but not the
same.
I would love to be able to capture this information.

The best related information I have been able to find relates to the
8650 support :-
http://www.msu.edu/~mrr/mycomp/vax8650.htm

Cross relating it to this :-
http://h18000.www1.hp.com/info/SP2682/SP2682PF.PDF
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:s-xEbERjAqcJ:h18000.www1.hp.com/info/SP2682/SP2682PF.PDF&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk&client=firefox-a
Post by Bob Koehler
From these I get the impression the system was used for boot time
diagnostics and low level system and hardware initialisation similar
to a BIOS in a PC.

These docs date this about 1986-1987 which would be around the same
time a RT-11 5.3 or GAMMA-11 but from the sound of this sub-thread we
are talking of a RT-11 v4 (1980) derivative which suggest this OS
older than the docs suggest and I am missing something.

Thanks
Paddy
Rich Alderson
2007-03-12 18:43:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Koehler
Post by Bill Pechter
Actually the RT11 varient lived on the 86x0 console on the T11.
The 11/78x consoles were pretty much RT11 format files -- but not the
RT11 OS.
And the OS seemed to relate to the real RT-11 in a manner that
RSX-11F (TOPS-20 front ends) related to RSX-11M, similar, but not the
same.
RSX-20F is a minor variant, but the build environment is full RSX-11M. Major
differences are the restriction of most tasks to the GEN partition, the change
to the filesystem drivers to deal with 16-bit words on 18-bit media, and the
need for a driver for the DTE-20 interface between the front end, an 11/40 in
one or two chassis, and the back end.

A more detailed description of the derivation can be found on pp. 1-6 and 1-7
of the RSX-20F manual at

http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp10/TOPS10_softwareNotebooks/vol14/AA-BS94A-TK_RSX20F.pdf
--
Rich Alderson | /"\ ASCII ribbon |
***@alderson.users.panix.com | \ / campaign against |
"You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." | x HTML mail and |
--Death, of the Endless | / \ postings |
Steve Lionel
2007-03-08 18:45:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by UnderMine
What exactly is the genealagy of VAXELN?
My understanding was that it originally branched from VMS and then
developed independantly.
VAXELN was derived from neither VMS nor MicroPowerPascal, though the
latter was aimed at the same market. The original name for VAXELN was
VAX Elan (Executive foir Local Area Networks), but there was a
trademark dispute over the name Elan so it became VAXELN.

The architecture of VAXELN is nothing at all like VMS. The original
design was that of a series of independent layers and modules from
which you could pick and choose, allowing you to build an application
with just those services you wanted. Communication between the layers
and modules was through well-defined APIs and did not rely on shared
system data structures. If you've seen an architecture schematic of
early designs of NT, it will look amazingly similar. Many
similarities persist in Windows XP.

Unfortunately for both VAXELN and NT, this elegant design had, shall
we say, inadequate performance, and in both the idealism of
abstraction yielded way to the pragmatism of a more integrated design,
though VAXELN still separated out large chunks of functionality which
could be optionally linked in.

As for languages, VAXELN Pascal was derived at least in part from VAX
Pascal V2 and also used its run-time library with minor edits. My
memory is a bit hazy regarding the compiler, it might have used
Cutler's VCG and the parser might have been independent. Perhaps John
Reagan will chime in with his recollections.

The other major language on VAXELN was Ada. I was the project leader
for VAXELN Ada from 1983-1988. This was the regular VAX Ada compiler
with some enhancements and a modified RTL. We also designed a remote
debugger interface from VAX DEBUG that did a clever (I thought)
mapping of the remote system's address space and used page protection
to trigger movement of pages.

One thing I recall about VAXELN was that it's API (akin to VMS system
services and RMS) was horrible. Cutler hated structures such as
itemlists and instead had calls such as the equivalent of $OPEN having
20 or more arguments. Any time functionality was enhanced, more
arguments were added. This is not the design I would have chosen.

Cutler left the project as version 1 was released and the project was
transferred to Maureen Johnson's group in the Mill. It took them
about 2-3 years to get the product up to what I would call "production
quality". You might see a pattern here.

VAXELN might have done better had DEC not held such a tight grip on
the VAX architecture, making it expensive for customers to deploy in
any reasonable quantities.

The above comments are my personal opinions.

Steve
John Reagan
2007-03-08 20:01:58 UTC
Permalink
This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.
Tom Linden
2007-03-09 02:54:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Reagan
Post by Steve Lionel
As for languages, VAXELN Pascal was derived at least in part from VAX
Pascal V2 and also used its run-time library with minor edits. My
memory is a bit hazy regarding the compiler, it might have used
Cutler's VCG and the parser might have been independent. Perhaps John
Reagan will chime in with his recollections.
VAXELN Pascal was not derived from any VAX Pascal compiler. VAX Pascal
is written in BLISS and has its own VAX code generator. VAXELN Pascal
(aka EPASCAL) was written mainly in PL/1 and used an older copy of the
VCG code generator. I'm not sure where Don McLaren came up with the
language definition or the parser, but given the politics, it certainly
wasn't from VAX Pascal.
I'm curious what you mean by the politics. A few years earlier,
Freiburghouse
did a LALR style Pascal based on the Wirth definition which we successfully
hooked up to the PL/I backend on the Prime.
Post by John Reagan
EPASCAL did use the same RTL interface so that you could
compile/link/run many EPASCAL programs on VMS, but I'm not sure that was
ever documented or supported.
Later in EPASCAL's life, it did end up under my control for a year or
so. It was after Cutler, et al left the company. I honestly don't
remember when it left me since I was working on hooking VAX Pascal to
GEM back in the early 1990s. I had a few engineers working solely on
EPASCAL and I tried not to learn too much about it.
We also added some new features in VAX Pascal to make it more compatible
with EPASCAL allegedly for ELN customers who might want to return to VMS
with their existing code. However, I doubt that it was useful given the
limited set of things we added.
--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
John Reagan
2007-03-09 19:04:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Linden
I'm curious what you mean by the politics.
People who didn't like each other or thought the others were hacks.
--
John Reagan
HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO/COBOL for OpenVMS Project Leader
Hewlett-Packard Company
Dave Weatherall
2007-03-11 06:26:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Reagan
Post by Tom Linden
I'm curious what you mean by the politics.
People who didn't like each other or thought the others were hacks.
I thought that was what was meant :-) VAX/ELN's inventor seems to
generate mixed appreciation.
--
Cheers - Dave W.
Dan O'Reilly
2007-03-09 14:19:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Koehler
Post by UnderMine
I am not sure but was there any link between VAXELN and RT-11? A
number of documents mention both together but I am not sure whether
this just is because both were real time enviroments able to run
Pascal or whether there was actually a link between the two.
IIRC RT-11 was before MicroPower PASCAL on the PDP-11. The only
link I know of between RT-11 and VMS was the VAX-11/78x console,
which seemed to be an RT-11 derivative and used the RT-11 floppy format.
A derivative of RT-11 was also used in the HSC controllers. I nearly took
a job with the HSC group in the early 80's but was so used to extra beeper
pay while working at the CSC (it was the TSC at the time) that I couldn't
afford the pay cut <grin>.


------
+-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
| Dan O'Reilly | "There are 10 types of people in this |
| Principal Engineer | world: those who understand binary |
| Process Software | and those who don't." |
| http://www.process.com | |
+-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
Paul Repacholi
2007-03-11 14:27:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan O'Reilly
A derivative of RT-11 was also used in the HSC controllers. I nearly
CRONIC was an RT offshoot? First mention I've hear of that.
Post by Dan O'Reilly
took a job with the HSC group in the early 80's but was so used to
extra beeper pay while working at the CSC (it was the TSC at the time)
that I couldn't afford the pay cut <grin>.
------
+-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
| Dan O'Reilly | "There are 10 types of people in this |
| Principal Engineer | world: those who understand binary |
| Process Software | and those who don't." |
| http://www.process.com | |
+-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
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