VMS editor uncommon option

[Arne Vajhøj]

A not so common option for VMS editor: JEdit 5.5

(that is the version from 2018, latest version is 5.7, but that requires
Java 11 - still waiting for Java 17 on VMS x86-64)

Requirements:
* Java 8 installed (so Itanium and x86-64 only)
* ODS-5 disk
* X working

Install:

$ java -Djava.awt.headless=false -jar jedit5.5.0install.jar

(and just go everything default)

Run:

$ java -Djava.awt.headless=false -jar jedit/5.5.0/jedit.jar

It seems to work fine for editing.

It reads different RFM files and write STMLF files.

I could not get plugin manager to download - not sure if
it is a JEdit VMS problem or just a network setup problem - anyway
one can just download the plugins and copy them
to [.jedit.5^.5^.0.jars] and they seem to work - I don't
want to use JEdit without the BufferTabs and JDiff plugins.

Not everyone like JEdit, but:
* it is a modern editor with the type of UI expected today
* it does run on VMS in a reasonable recent version
* it has the exact same look and feel across platforms
(VMS, Windows, Linux)

Not that many editors match all of those.

Arne

[Simon Clubley]

Post by Arne Vajhøj
* it is a modern editor with the type of UI expected today

Expected by who ? There's a reason why lots of people still use emacs
and vi even on operating systems where the fancy GUI alternatives are
mainstream available.

Post by Arne Vajhøj
* it does run on VMS in a reasonable recent version
* it has the exact same look and feel across platforms
(VMS, Windows, Linux)

You can also get versions of TECO for each of those platforms. :-) :-)

Post by Arne Vajhøj
Not that many editors match all of those.

Simon.

[Arne Vajhøj]

Post by Simon Clubley

Post by Arne Vajhøj
* it is a modern editor with the type of UI expected today

Expected by who ?

There has evolved a standard for UI's.

Top pulldown menu with file ... help.

File has open, save, save as, exit and more.

A toolbar with the most common options below pulldown
menu.

Right click expose a context specific menu.

Etc..

If you open an editor or an IDE or a wordprocessor, then
you expect to see that.

And it enables you to use a tool you have never used before.

I would expect practically everyone working with IT to
know this standard.

Know does not imply prefer or like - just that they know it.

Arne

[Arne Vajhøj]

Post by Simon Clubley
There's a reason why lots of people still use emacs
and vi even on operating systems where the fancy GUI alternatives are
mainstream available.

You can actually tell JEdit to use Emacs keymap.

No EDT keymap, but it is possible to define a custom keymap,
so it may be possible to create an EDT keymap. Only question
is how to do gold key.

Arne

[Arne Vajhøj]

Post by Arne Vajhøj
I could not get plugin manager to download - not sure if
it is a JEdit VMS problem or just a network setup problem - anyway
one can just download the plugins and copy them
to [.jedit.5^.5^.0.jars] and they seem to work - I don't
want to use JEdit without the BufferTabs and JDiff plugins.

If anyone want to take it for a spin then I suggest
the following.

Global Options - Editing - enable soft tabs [to get spaces instead of tabs]

Global Options - Saving & Backup - disable two stage save and max
backups 0 [to work with VMS file versions]

Global Options - General - disable restore open files and split [unless
you like to hop right back in]

install BufferTabs plugin
options enable by default
options location top
(and Global Options - View - disable show buffer switcher [to avoid
duplication])

install JDiff plugin

Arne

[Arne Vajhøj]

Post by Arne Vajhøj

Post by Arne Vajhøj
I could not get plugin manager to download - not sure if
it is a JEdit VMS problem or just a network setup problem - anyway
one can just download the plugins and copy them
to [.jedit.5^.5^.0.jars] and they seem to work - I don't
want to use JEdit without the BufferTabs and JDiff plugins.

If anyone want to take it for a spin then I suggest
the following.
Global Options - Editing - enable soft tabs [to get spaces instead of tabs]
Global Options - Saving & Backup - disable two stage save and max
backups 0 [to work with VMS file versions]
Global Options - General - disable restore open files and split [unless
you like to hop right back in]
install BufferTabs plugin
    options enable by default
    options location top
    (and Global Options - View - disable show buffer switcher [to avoid
duplication])
install JDiff plugin

It does syntax coloring.

Works fine for C, Java etc..

Not quite as fine for VMS Basic, VMS Pascal, DCL etc..

But for those that want it then you can add a
[.jedit.5^.5^.0.modes]whatever.xml and and put
a ref into [.jedit.5^.5^.0.modes]catalog. to
get it.

Arne

[Arne Vajhøj]

Post by Arne Vajhøj

Post by Arne Vajhøj

Post by Arne Vajhøj
I could not get plugin manager to download - not sure if
it is a JEdit VMS problem or just a network setup problem - anyway
one can just download the plugins and copy them
to [.jedit.5^.5^.0.jars] and they seem to work - I don't
want to use JEdit without the BufferTabs and JDiff plugins.

install BufferTabs plugin
install JDiff plugin

It does syntax coloring.
Works fine for C, Java etc..
Not quite as fine for VMS Basic, VMS Pascal, DCL etc..
But for those that want it then you can add a
[.jedit.5^.5^.0.modes]whatever.xml and and put
a ref into [.jedit.5^.5^.0.modes]catalog. to
get it.

So I did a first attempt on DCL, VMS Pascal and VMS Basic
support.

https://www.vajhoej.dk/arne/vmsstuff/jedit/

has some instructions in content.txt and a
jedit-bundle.zip with everything.

Not everybody likes JEdit, but modern GUI editors
for VMS is not exactly a crowded space. :-)

Have fun.

Arne

[Marc Van Dyck]

Post by Arne Vajhøj

Post by Arne Vajhøj

Post by Arne Vajhøj

Post by Arne Vajhøj
I could not get plugin manager to download - not sure if
it is a JEdit VMS problem or just a network setup problem - anyway
one can just download the plugins and copy them
to [.jedit.5^.5^.0.jars] and they seem to work - I don't
want to use JEdit without the BufferTabs and JDiff plugins.

install BufferTabs plugin
install JDiff plugin

It does syntax coloring.
Works fine for C, Java etc..
Not quite as fine for VMS Basic, VMS Pascal, DCL etc..
But for those that want it then you can add a
[.jedit.5^.5^.0.modes]whatever.xml and and put
a ref into [.jedit.5^.5^.0.modes]catalog. to
get it.

So I did a first attempt on DCL, VMS Pascal and VMS Basic
support.
https://www.vajhoej.dk/arne/vmsstuff/jedit/
has some instructions in content.txt and a
jedit-bundle.zip with everything.
Not everybody likes JEdit, but modern GUI editors
for VMS is not exactly a crowded space. :-)
Have fun.
Arne

A naïve question : I have never been exposed, I must admit, to "modern
GUI editors". What more do they have to offer compared to, for example,
good old DECWindows LSE (with EDT keypad of course) ? Could you try to
convince me ?

[Simon Clubley]

Post by Marc Van Dyck
A naïve question : I have never been exposed, I must admit, to "modern
GUI editors". What more do they have to offer compared to, for example,
good old DECWindows LSE (with EDT keypad of course) ? Could you try to
convince me ?

Basically, a lot more hand-holding and the ability to do some simple
stuff from the menus without having to know the keystrokes to invoke
that functionality.

Note that there is a difference between a GUI editor and a full-blown IDE.
If Arne chooses to make a detailed reply, I hope he draws attention to
that so it doesn't confuse you.

Also note that just knowing how to press buttons doesn't automatically
make you an expert in any GUI application (regardless of whether it is
an editor, Excel, Word, Octave, KiCad, etc). It just potentially gives
you the bit of knowledge needed to really mess things up unless you
really learn the GUI application in question.

Simon.

[Arne Vajhøj]

Post by Marc Van Dyck

Post by Arne Vajhøj
So I did a first attempt on DCL, VMS Pascal and VMS Basic
support.
https://www.vajhoej.dk/arne/vmsstuff/jedit/
has some instructions in content.txt and a
jedit-bundle.zip with everything.
Not everybody likes JEdit, but modern GUI editors
for VMS is not exactly a crowded space. :-)

A naïve question : I have never been exposed, I must admit, to "modern
GUI editors". What more do they have to offer compared to, for example,
good old DECWindows LSE (with EDT keypad of course) ? Could you try to
convince me ?

I don't know if I can convince you that JEdit is great.

Maybe I can convince you that it is worth trying out.

First a caveat. I don’t have much experience with LSE. I have seen both
the VT interface and the DECWindows interface. But I never liked LSE. I
was always an EVE person on VMS. My clear impression is that LSE was a
good product in its time, but it has not evolved for 30+ years.

Next the editor vs IDE discussion. I see it more as scale than as two
buckets. So if I were to put various editors/IDE's on the scale it
would be:

editor <------------------------------------> IDE
EDT EVE JEdit LSE VSCode Eclipse

Nice features in JEdit:
* Support multiple horizontal and vertical split of screen.
* Syntax coloring for a ton of languages - both old and new.
* The BufferTabs plugin (as opposed to the builtin buffer switcher) is
pretty nice for working with lots of open files.
* The JDiff plugin makes it easy to see difference in two files
side by side with color highlighting.
* Can read and write files in all sorts of encodings.
* Can convert tab characters to spaces.
* Bracket matching.
* Smart indent.
* The XML plugin does nice auto complete for XML and HTML
* There is a FTP/SFTP plugin to allow access to remote files. I have
never liked that though - I always prefer to edit locally and then
FTP/SFTP.
* Anyone that has used a recent editor/IDE/wordprocessor on PC can
use JEdit. It comes with documentation, but there is really
no reason to read it. Menus, icons, right click context menu are
mostly as expected. I probably only use 20% of the functionality -
lots left to investigate, but if I need something I find it in the
menus.
* Same UI on Windows, Linux, VMS, macOS, FreeBSD etc. (on
Windows and various *nix there are lots of editors to pick from,
but on VMS the offerings are more limited)

There may not be many "must have" features, but I think there are a lot
of "nice to have" features.

Not so nice things with JEdit:
* Slow startup time – so keep it open and close and open files
from within.
* Rather ugly font.
* Default RFM is STMLF not VAR.

But besides all the objective pros and cons then editor choice also has
a significant subjective aspect – some may love it – some may hate it.

If you are in the market for a graphical editor on VMS, then it seems
obvious to give JEdit a try and see if you like it or not. Worst case
is that you don’t like it and you have wasted an hour or two of
your time.

Arne

[Marc Van Dyck]

Post by Arne Vajhøj

Post by Marc Van Dyck

Post by Arne Vajhøj
So I did a first attempt on DCL, VMS Pascal and VMS Basic
support.
https://www.vajhoej.dk/arne/vmsstuff/jedit/
has some instructions in content.txt and a
jedit-bundle.zip with everything.
Not everybody likes JEdit, but modern GUI editors
for VMS is not exactly a crowded space. :-)

A naïve question : I have never been exposed, I must admit, to "modern
GUI editors". What more do they have to offer compared to, for example,
good old DECWindows LSE (with EDT keypad of course) ? Could you try to
convince me ?

I don't know if I can convince you that JEdit is great.
Maybe I can convince you that it is worth trying out.
First a caveat. I don’t have much experience with LSE. I have seen both
the VT interface and the DECWindows interface. But I never liked LSE. I
was always an EVE person on VMS. My clear impression is that LSE was a
good product in its time, but it has not evolved for 30+ years.
Next the editor vs IDE discussion. I see it more as scale than as two
buckets. So if I were to put various editors/IDE's on the scale it
editor <------------------------------------> IDE
EDT EVE JEdit LSE VSCode Eclipse
* Support multiple horizontal and vertical split of screen.
* Syntax coloring for a ton of languages - both old and new.
* The BufferTabs plugin (as opposed to the builtin buffer switcher) is
pretty nice for working with lots of open files.
* The JDiff plugin makes it easy to see difference in two files
side by side with color highlighting.
* Can read and write files in all sorts of encodings.
* Can convert tab characters to spaces.
* Bracket matching.
* Smart indent.
* The XML plugin does nice auto complete for XML and HTML
* There is a FTP/SFTP plugin to allow access to remote files. I have
never liked that though - I always prefer to edit locally and then
FTP/SFTP.
* Anyone that has used a recent editor/IDE/wordprocessor on PC can
use JEdit. It comes with documentation, but there is really
no reason to read it. Menus, icons, right click context menu are
mostly as expected. I probably only use 20% of the functionality -
lots left to investigate, but if I need something I find it in the
menus.
* Same UI on Windows, Linux, VMS, macOS, FreeBSD etc. (on
Windows and various *nix there are lots of editors to pick from,
but on VMS the offerings are more limited)
There may not be many "must have" features, but I think there are a lot
of "nice to have" features.
* Slow startup time – so keep it open and close and open files
from within.
* Rather ugly font.
* Default RFM is STMLF not VAR.
But besides all the objective pros and cons then editor choice also has
a significant subjective aspect – some may love it – some may hate it.
If you are in the market for a graphical editor on VMS, then it seems
obvious to give JEdit a try and see if you like it or not. Worst case
is that you don’t like it and you have wasted an hour or two of
your time.
Arne

I'm already convinced by the IDE concept. I tried to introduce that
in my company without success, total lack of interest. I was starting
from very far, though. People were (and still are, as far as I know)
FTPing files in and out to edit them locally on their desktop PCs.
So they didn't even let me start a proof of concept...

What I was more interested in your reply was the purely editing part,
and that seems to have some interesting points that I'd like to try.
But I'm still very much DECset oriented and will probably miss the SCA
features if I abandon LSE, though, so it will be a difficult choice.
I'm mainly programming in PASCAL, it that matters.

[Arne Vajhøj]

Post by Marc Van Dyck
I'm already convinced by the IDE concept. I tried to introduce that
in my company without success, total lack of interest. I was starting
from very far, though. People were (and still are, as far as I know)
FTPing files in and out to edit them locally on their desktop PCs.
So they didn't even let me start a proof of concept...

That indicates to me that they they are looking for something more.

Post by Marc Van Dyck
What I was more interested in your reply was the purely editing part,
and that seems to have some interesting points that I'd like to try.

Give it a try.

Post by Marc Van Dyck
But I'm still very much DECset oriented and will probably miss the SCA
features if I abandon LSE, though, so it will be a difficult choice.

JEdit is no silver bullet.

Post by Marc Van Dyck
I'm mainly programming in PASCAL, it that matters.

Not much. It is mostly a general editor.

I updated the list of keywords to match VMS Pascal
better for syntax coloring. But that is about it.

You can customize keywords even more, because JEdit
support 4 different classes of keywords with different
colors.

Arne

[Arne Vajhøj]

Post by Arne Vajhøj

Post by Marc Van Dyck
But I'm still very much DECset oriented and will probably miss the SCA
features if I abandon LSE, though, so it will be a difficult choice.

JEdit is no silver bullet.

I have no idea how LSE and SCA integrate, but maybe it will
work to have a terminal window running SCA and a JEdit window
and copy paste between them??

(JEdit does have a console plugin that can put a command window
inside the editor, but I don't see why anyone would prefer that
over a separate terminal window)

That obviously require multiple and/or large screens, but today
developers usually got that in place already.

Arne

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

(JEdit does have a console plugin that can put a command window inside
the editor, but I don't see why anyone would prefer that over a separate
terminal window)

Emacs has similar options. It’s handy in being able to deal with large
amounts of command output.

For example, I might search for places in multiple source files that need
some fix applied, and collect the list in a command window. Then, as I fix
each one, I delete that entry from the list.

[Arne Vajhøj]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

(JEdit does have a console plugin that can put a command window inside
the editor, but I don't see why anyone would prefer that over a separate
terminal window)

Emacs has similar options. It’s handy in being able to deal with large
amounts of command output.
For example, I might search for places in multiple source files that need
some fix applied, and collect the list in a command window. Then, as I fix
each one, I delete that entry from the list.

EVE has:

<DO>
DCL whatever command

But again: very useful back when one was working on one physical VT
terminal - today one can have multiple windows open and can just
copy paste from a terminal window to the editor.

Arne

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

... today one can have multiple windows open and can just
copy paste from a terminal window to the editor.

But, like I said, it is still often useful to be able to generate the
command output directly into the editor window. Particularly if there is a
lot of it.