Discussion:
VI* on VMS
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David Meyer
2024-10-16 13:57:38 UTC
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I'm helping operate an OpenVMS V7.3 system running on a VAXstation
4000-60. We have Vim 7.4 installed, but it appears to cause a big spike
in CPU usage and DIOCNT whenever it's run. The person who installed it
is no longer with us, and we are considering deleting Vim.

We also have VILE installed, which limited experimentation has not shown
to cause the same kind of performance problems. Does anyone know if VILE
is indeed well-behaved on VMS?
--
David Meyer
Takarazuka, Japan
***@sdf.org
Arne Vajhøj
2024-10-16 19:32:14 UTC
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Post by David Meyer
I'm helping operate an OpenVMS V7.3 system running on a VAXstation
4000-60. We have Vim 7.4 installed, but it appears to cause a big spike
in CPU usage and DIOCNT whenever it's run. The person who installed it
is no longer with us, and we are considering deleting Vim.
We also have VILE installed, which limited experimentation has not shown
to cause the same kind of performance problems. Does anyone know if VILE
is indeed well-behaved on VMS?
No idea about vile.

But http://www.polarhome.com/vim/ shows vim 9.1-11 being available
for VMS.

Before distching vim, then maybe check if an upgrade helps. From 7.4
to 9.1 is a pretty big jump.

Arne
Dan Cross
2024-10-16 19:45:40 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by David Meyer
I'm helping operate an OpenVMS V7.3 system running on a VAXstation
4000-60. We have Vim 7.4 installed, but it appears to cause a big spike
in CPU usage and DIOCNT whenever it's run. The person who installed it
is no longer with us, and we are considering deleting Vim.
We also have VILE installed, which limited experimentation has not shown
to cause the same kind of performance problems. Does anyone know if VILE
is indeed well-behaved on VMS?
No idea about vile.
But http://www.polarhome.com/vim/ shows vim 9.1-11 being available
for VMS.
Before distching vim, then maybe check if an upgrade helps. From 7.4
to 9.1 is a pretty big jump.
You can't run 9.1 on a VAX. I assume that the VAXstation
4000-60 David mention is the hardware at the SDF museum.

- Dan C.
Arne Vajhøj
2024-10-16 19:53:09 UTC
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Post by Dan Cross
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by David Meyer
I'm helping operate an OpenVMS V7.3 system running on a VAXstation
4000-60. We have Vim 7.4 installed, but it appears to cause a big spike
in CPU usage and DIOCNT whenever it's run. The person who installed it
is no longer with us, and we are considering deleting Vim.
We also have VILE installed, which limited experimentation has not shown
to cause the same kind of performance problems. Does anyone know if VILE
is indeed well-behaved on VMS?
No idea about vile.
But http://www.polarhome.com/vim/ shows vim 9.1-11 being available
for VMS.
Before distching vim, then maybe check if an upgrade helps. From 7.4
to 9.1 is a pretty big jump.
You can't run 9.1 on a VAX. I assume that the VAXstation
4000-60 David mention is the hardware at the SDF museum.
The above link has links to a bunch of vim-91*vax.zip files -
that is not version 9.1 for VAX??

Arne
Dan Cross
2024-10-16 19:54:43 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Dan Cross
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by David Meyer
I'm helping operate an OpenVMS V7.3 system running on a VAXstation
4000-60. We have Vim 7.4 installed, but it appears to cause a big spike
in CPU usage and DIOCNT whenever it's run. The person who installed it
is no longer with us, and we are considering deleting Vim.
We also have VILE installed, which limited experimentation has not shown
to cause the same kind of performance problems. Does anyone know if VILE
is indeed well-behaved on VMS?
No idea about vile.
But http://www.polarhome.com/vim/ shows vim 9.1-11 being available
for VMS.
Before distching vim, then maybe check if an upgrade helps. From 7.4
to 9.1 is a pretty big jump.
You can't run 9.1 on a VAX. I assume that the VAXstation
4000-60 David mention is the hardware at the SDF museum.
The above link has links to a bunch of vim-91*vax.zip files -
that is not version 9.1 for VAX??
Ah, I see now; I mixed up VMS and VIM versions there.

- Dan C.
Arne Vajhøj
2024-10-16 20:05:10 UTC
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Post by Dan Cross
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Dan Cross
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by David Meyer
I'm helping operate an OpenVMS V7.3 system running on a VAXstation
4000-60. We have Vim 7.4 installed, but it appears to cause a big spike
in CPU usage and DIOCNT whenever it's run. The person who installed it
is no longer with us, and we are considering deleting Vim.
We also have VILE installed, which limited experimentation has not shown
to cause the same kind of performance problems. Does anyone know if VILE
is indeed well-behaved on VMS?
No idea about vile.
But http://www.polarhome.com/vim/ shows vim 9.1-11 being available
for VMS.
Before distching vim, then maybe check if an upgrade helps. From 7.4
to 9.1 is a pretty big jump.
You can't run 9.1 on a VAX. I assume that the VAXstation
4000-60 David mention is the hardware at the SDF museum.
The above link has links to a bunch of vim-91*vax.zip files -
that is not version 9.1 for VAX??
Ah, I see now; I mixed up VMS and VIM versions there.
Upgrading from the non-existing VMS VAX 7.4 to the
non-existing VMS VAX 9.1 would certainly be a problem.

Arne
Chris Townley
2024-10-16 22:26:58 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Dan Cross
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by David Meyer
I'm helping operate an OpenVMS V7.3 system running on a VAXstation
4000-60. We have Vim 7.4 installed, but it appears to cause a big spike
in CPU usage and DIOCNT whenever it's run. The person who
installed it
is no longer with us, and we are considering deleting Vim.
We also have VILE installed, which limited experimentation has not shown
to cause the same kind of performance problems. Does anyone know if VILE
is indeed well-behaved on VMS?
No idea about vile.
But http://www.polarhome.com/vim/ shows vim 9.1-11 being available
for VMS.
Before distching vim, then maybe check if an upgrade helps. From 7.4
to 9.1 is a pretty big jump.
You can't run 9.1 on a VAX.  I assume that the VAXstation
4000-60 David mention is the hardware at the SDF museum.
The above link has links to a bunch of vim-91*vax.zip files -
that is not version 9.1 for VAX??
Ah, I see now; I mixed up VMS and VIM versions there.
Upgrading from the non-existing VMS VAX 7.4 to the
non-existing VMS VAX 9.1 would certainly be a problem.
Arne
Why would anyone want use vi, or vim on VMS?

What is wrong with eve/tpu? or even LSE?
--
Chris
Arne Vajhøj
2024-10-16 22:33:37 UTC
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Post by Chris Townley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by David Meyer
I'm helping operate an OpenVMS V7.3 system running on a VAXstation
4000-60. We have Vim 7.4 installed, but it appears to cause a big spike
in CPU usage and DIOCNT whenever it's run. The person who installed it
is no longer with us, and we are considering deleting Vim.
We also have VILE installed, which limited experimentation has not shown
to cause the same kind of performance problems. Does anyone know if VILE
is indeed well-behaved on VMS?
No idea about vile.
But http://www.polarhome.com/vim/ shows vim 9.1-11 being available
for VMS.
Before distching vim, then maybe check if an upgrade helps. From 7.4
to 9.1 is a pretty big jump.
Why would anyone want use vi, or vim on VMS?
What is wrong with eve/tpu? or even LSE?
EDT, EVE and LSE are the VMS way to edit.

I always use a heavily customized EVE.

But if somebody is doing 98% *nix work and
2% VMS work, then vi(m) may make sense.

OP asked. I am sure he knows about the VMS
editors.

Arne
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-10-16 23:01:08 UTC
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But if somebody is doing 98% *nix work and 2% VMS work, then vi(m) may
make sense.
Or you could do all your editing on *nix and set up an automated system
for copying files across to VMS. Treat it as an embedded system, in other
words.
David Meyer
2024-10-16 23:40:32 UTC
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Post by Chris Townley
... I assume that the VAXstation
4000-60 David mention is the hardware at the SDF museum.
Correct.
Post by Chris Townley
Why would anyone want use vi, or vim on VMS?
What is wrong with eve/tpu? or even LSE?
I have become a fan of EVE, and recommend EDT for new VMS users whose
terminals don't have a keypad.

But some people like to try a new OS without having to learn a new
editor. And since a previous administrator thought it was worthwhile to
install VIM and VILE, I don't feel like deleting them unless they cause
unfixable problems. Will give Vim 9.1 a try.
--
David Meyer
Takarazuka, Japan
***@sdf.org
Dave Froble
2024-10-17 00:26:10 UTC
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Post by Chris Townley
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Dan Cross
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Dan Cross
Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by David Meyer
I'm helping operate an OpenVMS V7.3 system running on a VAXstation
4000-60. We have Vim 7.4 installed, but it appears to cause a big spike
in CPU usage and DIOCNT whenever it's run. The person who installed it
is no longer with us, and we are considering deleting Vim.
We also have VILE installed, which limited experimentation has not shown
to cause the same kind of performance problems. Does anyone know if VILE
is indeed well-behaved on VMS?
No idea about vile.
But http://www.polarhome.com/vim/ shows vim 9.1-11 being available
for VMS.
Before distching vim, then maybe check if an upgrade helps. From 7.4
to 9.1 is a pretty big jump.
You can't run 9.1 on a VAX. I assume that the VAXstation
4000-60 David mention is the hardware at the SDF museum.
The above link has links to a bunch of vim-91*vax.zip files -
that is not version 9.1 for VAX??
Ah, I see now; I mixed up VMS and VIM versions there.
Upgrading from the non-existing VMS VAX 7.4 to the
non-existing VMS VAX 9.1 would certainly be a problem.
Arne
Why would anyone want use vi, or vim on VMS?
What is wrong with eve/tpu? or even LSE?
Could be what the user is used to using ...
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
John H. Reinhardt
2024-10-17 12:23:38 UTC
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Post by Dave Froble
Post by Chris Townley
Why would anyone want use vi, or vim on VMS?
What is wrong with eve/tpu? or even LSE?
Could be what the user is used to using ...
What I was going to say, muscle (finger) memory...

After roughly 40 years of EDT/EVE/TPU (and TECO) and around 30 years of VI my fingers remember both, just sometimes not at the correct time. I've thought about adding EMACS but I'm not sure how much memory space my fingers have left.
--
John H. Reinhardt
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-10-17 21:16:07 UTC
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Post by John H. Reinhardt
After roughly 40 years of EDT/EVE/TPU (and TECO) and around 30 years of
VI my fingers remember both, just sometimes not at the correct time.
I've thought about adding EMACS but I'm not sure how much memory space
my fingers have left.
In my case, I put up with vi because that was the only thing you could be
sure of having on all the proprietary Unix® systems.

Once Unix® went defunct and Linux took over, I switched to Emacs, and
(almost) never looked back.
Arne Vajhøj
2024-10-18 01:06:56 UTC
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Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by John H. Reinhardt
After roughly 40 years of EDT/EVE/TPU (and TECO) and around 30 years of
VI my fingers remember both, just sometimes not at the correct time.
I've thought about adding EMACS but I'm not sure how much memory space
my fingers have left.
In my case, I put up with vi because that was the only thing you could be
sure of having on all the proprietary Unix® systems.
Once Unix® went defunct and Linux took over, I switched to Emacs, and
(almost) never looked back.
No guarantee that emacs is installed on a Linux system. I am not even
sure that it is common to have it installed on servers.

Arne
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-10-18 03:17:08 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
No guarantee that emacs is installed on a Linux system.
It’s in the standard repos for all the common distros.

Simon Clubley
2024-10-17 12:37:08 UTC
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Post by Chris Townley
Why would anyone want use vi, or vim on VMS?
VI on VMS is just about using what you already know IMHO, in the same
way as I enable EDT keypad mapping in emacs.
Post by Chris Townley
What is wrong with eve/tpu? or even LSE?
However, when it comes to emacs, it does a _lot_ that EVE does not do.
For one simple but very important example, you have brace matching in
emacs so you can easily check the closing brace matches the correct
opening brace.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Chris Townley
2024-10-17 12:43:44 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Chris Townley
Why would anyone want use vi, or vim on VMS?
VI on VMS is just about using what you already know IMHO, in the same
way as I enable EDT keypad mapping in emacs.
Post by Chris Townley
What is wrong with eve/tpu? or even LSE?
However, when it comes to emacs, it does a _lot_ that EVE does not do.
For one simple but very important example, you have brace matching in
emacs so you can easily check the closing brace matches the correct
opening brace.
Simon.
Eight Meg and Continuously Swapping ISTR
--
Chris
Arne Vajhøj
2024-10-17 12:53:27 UTC
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Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Chris Townley
What is wrong with eve/tpu? or even LSE?
However, when it comes to emacs, it does a _lot_ that EVE does not do.
For one simple but very important example, you have brace matching in
emacs so you can easily check the closing brace matches the correct
opening brace.
EVE does not have that out of the box.

But then EVE has relative little out of the box.

You can add it.

Either DIY or grab a copy of Kenneth Faitfield's
EVE_MATCH_DELIMITORS.

I am afraid there are no online archive of INFO-TPU, but
the most valuable pieces will have survived somewhere
(I got the above).

Arne
Arne Vajhøj
2024-10-17 12:57:30 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Chris Townley
What is wrong with eve/tpu? or even LSE?
However, when it comes to emacs, it does a _lot_ that EVE does not do.
For one simple but very important example, you have brace matching in
emacs so you can easily check the closing brace matches the correct
opening brace.
EVE does not have that out of the box.
But then EVE has relative little out of the box.
You can add it.
Either DIY or grab a copy of Kenneth Faitfield's
EVE_MATCH_DELIMITORS.
I am afraid there are no online archive of INFO-TPU, but
the most valuable pieces will have survived somewhere
(I got the above).
Here it is.

Arne

!++
! This procedure highlights (in BOLD, REVERSE video) matching pairs
! of delimitors, the first of which is taken to be the character at
! the current cursor position. Highlighting is turned off by invoking
! this procedure with the cursor positioned on a non-delimitor character.
! Subsequent invocations turn off the highlighting on previously matched
! pairs, as well.
!
! This procedure uses the global marker variables khf$x_match1_position,
! khf$x_match2_position, khf$x_match3_position, and khf$x_match4_position.
!
! Author/Date: K.H. Fairfield, 16-Jan-1988
!
!--
Procedure Eve_Match_Delimitors
! --------------------
Local saved_mark, ! mark current position
first_char, ! first character of matching pair
last_char, ! second character of matching pair
direction, ! search direction
n; ! character position in khf$kt_left_delims or
! khf$kt_right_delims string.


On_Error
[TPU$_CONTROLC]:
Eve$Learn_Abort;
Eve$$Restore_Position (saved_mark);
[OTHERWISE]:
Eve$$Restore_Position (saved_mark);
Endon_Error;


saved_mark := Mark (NONE);

!+
! Make an early return here if the current position is the same
! position as the last previously marked delimitor.
!-
If khf$x_match1_position <> 0 Then
If saved_mark = khf$x_match1_position Then

khf$x_match1_position:= 0;
khf$x_match2_position:= 0;
khf$x_match3_position:= 0;
khf$x_match4_position:= 0;
Return (TRUE);

Endif;
Endif;

first_char := CURRENT_CHARACTER;

n := Index (khf$kt_left_delims, first_char);

If n > 0 Then
last_char := Substr (khf$kt_right_delims, n, 1);
direction := FORWARD;
Else
n := Index (khf$kt_right_delims, first_char);

If n > 0 Then
last_char := Substr (khf$kt_left_delims, n, 1);
direction := REVERSE;
Else
!+
! Current_Character was not a delimitor. If highlighting is on, turn it
! off, else issue an error message.
!-
If khf$x_match1_position = 0 Then
Eve$message ("The current character, " + first_char +
", is not a valid delimitor to match.");
Endif;
khf$x_match1_position:= 0;
khf$x_match2_position:= 0;
khf$x_match3_position:= 0;
khf$x_match4_position:= 0;
Return (FALSE);
Endif;
Endif;

khf$x_match1_position:= Mark (BOLD);
khf$x_match2_position:= Mark (REVERSE);

If Khf_Find_Match (first_char, last_char, direction) = 1 Then
khf$x_match3_position:= Mark (BOLD);
khf$x_match4_position:= Mark (REVERSE);
Update (CURRENT_WINDOW);
Position (khf$x_match1_position);
Return (TRUE);
Else
Position (khf$x_match1_position);
khf$x_match1_position:= 0;
khf$x_match2_position:= 0;
khf$x_match3_position:= 0;
khf$x_match4_position:= 0;
Eve$message (" Could not find the matching " + last_char +
" character for the current character, " + first_char);
Return (FALSE);
Endif;


EndProcedure; ! Eve_Match_Delimitors


!++
! The following procedure does the actually search for the matching
! delimitor character. A recursive algorithm is used so that intervening
! pairs of matched delimitors are not mistakenly selected as the match.
!
! Input Parameters:
!
! first the delimitor character whose mate is being sought
!
! last the matching delimitor character
!
! direction the direction to search. If first_char is a right-
! delimitor, the search direction is FORWARD,
! otherwise it is REVERSE.
!
! Author/Date: K.H. Fairfield, 16-Jan-1988
!-

Procedure Khf_Find_Match (first, last, direction)
! --------------
Local this_patt, this_range;

this_patt := first + last;
Loop
If direction = FORWARD Then
Move_Horizontal (1);
Else
Move_Horizontal (-1);
Endif;
this_range := Search_Quietly (Any (this_patt), direction);
If this_range <> 0
Then
Position (this_range);
Else
Return (0);
Endif;
If CURRENT_CHARACTER = last Then
Return (1);
Else
If Khf_Find_Match (first, last, direction) = 0 Then
Return (0);
Endif;
Endif;
Endloop;

Endprocedure; ! Khf_Find_Match
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-10-17 21:18:14 UTC
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Post by Arne Vajhøj
But then EVE has relative little out of the box.
Soon as I discovered EVE, I created my own adaptation, which I called
“PEEVE” (“Programmer’s Extension of EVE”, or something like that).

I didn’t have any way of taking a copy with me when I left the University,
and no doubt any backup tapes from that decades-ago time are long gone ...
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