Discussion:
DECterm special escape sequences ?
(too old to reply)
JF Mezei
2006-12-28 05:20:59 UTC
Permalink
I am looking fro an escape sequence, which, when sent to a DECterm, would
cause that window to minimise itself into an icon. Is there such a beast ?

There really should be some central "official" document that lists all the
escape sequences supported by DECterm above and beyond what a VT200 dupports.

I tried google, and there are so many sites that list one or two espape
sequence that it is nearly impossible to find out whether what I am looking
for exists or not.
Roger Ivie
2006-12-28 06:17:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
There really should be some central "official" document that lists all the
escape sequences supported by DECterm above and beyond what a VT200 dupports.
I hear ya. I've fought a few futile battles with DECterm myself. I see
occasional references to a document called "DECterm Programming Release
Notes", part number EK-DTERM-RN-001, but have not encountered a copy of
the document.

I see a couple of folks who say they've been looking through the PuTTY
source code for escape sequences because PuTTY tends to support the DEC
sequences. I don't know if this particular sequence is among them (in my
case, I was interesting in particulars of its ReGIS implementation, so
things like PuTTY and xterm wouldn't help).

Looks like xterm using ^[[2t for to minimize and ^[[1t to unminimize.
I don't know if they'll work for DECterm; I don't have one handy at the
moment. I got the xterm sequence from:

http://rtfm.etla.org/xterm/ctlseq.html
--
roger ivie
***@ridgenet.net
Roger Ivie
2006-12-28 06:19:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Ivie
I hear ya. I've fought a few futile battles with DECterm myself. I see
occasional references to a document called "DECterm Programming Release
Notes", part number EK-DTERM-RN-001, but have not encountered a copy of
the document.
Looks like EK-DTERM-DK is the document to which EK-DTERM-RN-001 are
release notes. It's allegedly titled "DECterm Programming".
--
roger ivie
***@ridgenet.net
JF Mezei
2006-12-28 09:08:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Ivie
Looks like xterm using ^[[2t for to minimize and ^[[1t to unminimize.
I don't know if they'll work for DECterm; I don't have one handy at the
the <csi>xt resizes the DECterm windows to contain "x" lines.

So the 2t one makes the window 2 lines long. The 1th makes it 1 line long.
Michael Unger
2006-12-28 16:40:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
[...]
I tried google, and there are so many sites that list one or two espape
sequence that it is nearly impossible to find out whether what I am looking
for exists or not.
There are quite a lot of escape sequences documented in
<http://bjh21.me.uk/all-escapes/all-escapes.txt> ...

Michael
--
Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers.
My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid.
Robert Deininger
2006-12-28 18:11:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Unger
Post by JF Mezei
[...]
I tried google, and there are so many sites that list one or two espape
sequence that it is nearly impossible to find out whether what I am looking
for exists or not.
There are quite a lot of escape sequences documented in
<http://bjh21.me.uk/all-escapes/all-escapes.txt> ...
VMS users can look in SMGTERMS.TXT (in SYS$SYSTEM IIRC). But I don't
think the DECterm special stuff is in there.
Thomas Dickey
2006-12-29 13:28:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Unger
Post by JF Mezei
[...]
I tried google, and there are so many sites that list one or two espape
sequence that it is nearly impossible to find out whether what I am looking
for exists or not.
There are quite a lot of escape sequences documented in
<http://bjh21.me.uk/all-escapes/all-escapes.txt> ...
...unfortunately, they're just heaped together in one place, without
a cross-reference (which would show that they're from several types
of terminals).

For a clue regarding the depth of this file, note the first line

# $Id: all-escapes.txt,v 1.32 2005/09/14 12:00:06 ben Exp $

and the 1999's pervading the text. It's basically a cut/paste job
from 1999 with a handful of changes past that point. Compare with

ftp://invisible-island.net/ncurses/terminfo.src.gz

or any of the references cited.
--
Thomas E. Dickey
http://invisible-island.net
ftp://invisible-island.net
c***@postmaster.co.uk
2006-12-28 21:30:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
I am looking fro an escape sequence, which, when sent to a DECterm, would
cause that window to minimise itself into an icon. Is there such a beast ?
There really should be some central "official" document that lists all the
escape sequences supported by DECterm above and beyond what a VT200 dupports.
I have a copy of the elusive EK-DTERM-DK, which is divided into
EK-DTERM-GM-001 (graphics) and EK-DTERM-PM-001 (text). But
disappointingly they differ little from the VT340 manuals and do not
even give the text colour, title, and icon name sequences I gave in a
post a few weeks ago. I can't find a minimize-me sequence in the
manuals. I scoured the DECterm code in the microfiche many years ago
but AFAIR the above were the only undocumented commands I found.

Chris
Bob Harris
2006-12-29 02:31:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
I am looking fro an escape sequence, which, when sent to a DECterm, would
cause that window to minimise itself into an icon. Is there such a beast ?
There really should be some central "official" document that lists all the
escape sequences supported by DECterm above and beyond what a VT200 dupports.
I tried google, and there are so many sites that list one or two espape
sequence that it is nearly impossible to find out whether what I am looking
for exists or not.
I've found this dtterm man page from Tru64 UNIX to be most useful
in providing VT terminal escape sequences:
<http://h30097.www3.hp.com/docs/base_doc/DOCUMENTATION/V51B_HTML/MA
N/MAN5/0201____.HTM>

Is this the escape sequence you were looking for?

Esc [ p1 ; p2 ; p3 t
Window manipulation. Valid values for p1 (and any additional
parameters) are:

1 Restore (de-iconify) window.

2 Minimize (iconify) window.

3 ; x ; y
Move window to [x, y].

4 ; height ; width
Resize the dtterm(1) window to height and width in pixels.

5 Raise the dtterm(1) window to the front of the stacking
order.

6 Lower the dtterm(1) window to the bottom of the stacking
order.

7 Refresh the dtterm(1) window.

8 ; height ; width
Resize the text area to height and width in characters.

11 Report dtterm(1) window state. If the dtterm(1) window is
open (non-
iconified), it returns ``Esc [ 1 t''. If the dtterm(1)
window is
iconified, it returns ``Esc [ 2 t''.

13 Report the dtterm(1) window position. The terminal emulator
returns
``Esc[ 3 ; x ;y t''.

14 Report the dtterm(1) window in pixels. The terminal emulator
returns
``Esc[ 4 ; height ;width t''.

18 Report the size of the area in characters. The terminal
emulator
returns ``Esc[ 8 ; height ;width t''.

20 Report the dtterm(1) window's icon label. The terminal
emulator returns
``Esc ] L label Esc Backslash''.

21 Report the dtterm(1) window's title. The terminal emulator
returns
``Esc] l title Esc Backslash''.

Bob Harris
JF Mezei
2006-12-29 04:51:48 UTC
Permalink
<http://h30097.www3.hp.com/docs/base_doc/DOCUMENTATION/V51B_HTML/MAN/MAN5/0201____.HTM>
Is this the escape sequence you were looking for?
Esc [ p1 ; p2 ; p3 t
1 Restore (de-iconify) window.
2 Minimize (iconify) window.
Many thanks. Unfortunatly, this escape sequence does not work in my
parralel universe. Esc [ 2 t makes the window 2 lines long. Esc [ 1 t
makes it 1 line long. Esc [ 51 t makes it 51 lines long.

Esc[3;100;100t makes it 3 lines long. (instead of moving window to pixels
100, 100).

I guess there is nobody left in VMS engineering who knows even where the
code for DECTERM is stored (maybe it is on some disk in India already ?)

Considering that Digital is *THE* standard for VT100, I would have though
that they would have made public ALL the escape sequences to ensure that
the VT100 protocol lives on.

But when you consider that even within Digital the secrets resulted in
OSF/DEC-UNIX/Tru64 using different escape sequences than for VMS, it says a
lot about the company.
Robert Deininger
2006-12-29 16:24:52 UTC
Permalink
<http://h30097.www3.hp.com/docs/base_doc/DOCUMENTATION/V51B_HTML/MAN/MAN5/0201____.HTM>
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Bob Harris
Is this the escape sequence you were looking for?
Esc [ p1 ; p2 ; p3 t
1 Restore (de-iconify) window.
2 Minimize (iconify) window.
Many thanks. Unfortunatly, this escape sequence does not work in my
parralel universe. Esc [ 2 t makes the window 2 lines long. Esc [ 1 t
makes it 1 line long. Esc [ 51 t makes it 51 lines long.
Esc[3;100;100t makes it 3 lines long. (instead of moving window to pixels
100, 100).
I guess there is nobody left in VMS engineering who knows even where the
code for DECTERM is stored (maybe it is on some disk in India already ?)
1. Please stop whining. You've already done enough whining to last
several lifetimes.

You haven't received, free of charge, immediate answers to your
questions. So naturally it becomes an opportunity to bash the very group
of people most likely to be able to help you. Clever, very clever.

2. The folks working on DECwindows are part of VMS Engineering. Most of
them happen to be in India. They know exactly where the code is.

Do you expect them to drop their real work to provide an immediate answer
about an undocumented non-feature to a bigoted, ill-mannered, non-paying,
non-customer? Perhaps you really do live in an alternate universe.

3. The DECwindows code and build environment are mostly separate from VMS
proper. That's always been the case. That means most of those you
consider "real" VMS engineers couldn't easily seek answers to your
questions. If they felt like helping you. Perhpas some of them do.
Post by JF Mezei
Considering that Digital is *THE* standard for VT100, I would have though
that they would have made public ALL the escape sequences to ensure that
the VT100 protocol lives on.
VT100 and the associated ANSI standard are very well documented and easy
to find in public locations.

What you seek isn't VT100 stuff. DECterm is based on the VT300 series,
IIRC. But DECterm has its own extensions, which may not be part of any
general standard.

I don't even know if DECterm has escape sequences for this stuff.
Post by JF Mezei
But when you consider that even within Digital the secrets resulted in
OSF/DEC-UNIX/Tru64 using different escape sequences than for VMS, it says a
lot about the company.
Blah, blah, blah.
JF Mezei
2006-12-29 20:03:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Deininger
1. Please stop whining. You've already done enough whining to last
several lifetimes.
I asked a question about a escape sequence. I was given a few things to
try, none of which worked on a DECTERM. I commented on why these would not
be properly documented fo DECTERM but are documented for other systems,
including Tru64 but are incompatible with DECTERM.
Post by Robert Deininger
2. The folks working on DECwindows are part of VMS Engineering. Most of
them happen to be in India. They know exactly where the code is.
Is this admission that DECTERM is officially in maintenance mode without
any hope of seeing improvements to it ?

Or let me ask this even more pointed question:

Is there any VMS *DEVELOPMENT* work being done in India ? Or is it just
maintenance ?
Post by Robert Deininger
Do you expect them to drop their real work to provide an immediate answer
about an undocumented non-feature to a bigoted, ill-mannered, non-paying,
non-customer? Perhaps you really do live in an alternate universe.
If you use Google over the years, you will find that there have been MANY
people asking for escape sequences, and that there doesn't seem to be a
documente containing all of them that was made available.

You can whine about me all you want. And you can decide to withhold answers
because *I* asked the question. But in doing so, you are also widtholding
answers that would benefit others. I am not asking for responses to be
sent to be privately so they benefit only myself.
Post by Robert Deininger
VT100 and the associated ANSI standard are very well documented and easy
to find in public locations.
What you seek isn't VT100 stuff. DECterm is based on the VT300 series,
IIRC. But DECterm has its own extensions, which may not be part of any
general standard.
Exactly my point. Digital should have made those extensions more formal
and published them so that anyone using the so called "VT100" standard
would not conflict with DEC's own extensions, which render the VT100 less
"standard". The fact that even within Digital, there were conflicts with
the <ESC>[xx t is such an indication.

You know very well that the VT100 "standard" is really much more than VT100
and includes far more modern features such as advanced video, and even
colours.
Michael Moroney
2006-12-29 21:36:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Robert Deininger
VT100 and the associated ANSI standard are very well documented and easy
to find in public locations.
What you seek isn't VT100 stuff. DECterm is based on the VT300 series,
IIRC. But DECterm has its own extensions, which may not be part of any
general standard.
Exactly my point. Digital should have made those extensions more formal
and published them so that anyone using the so called "VT100" standard
would not conflict with DEC's own extensions, which render the VT100 less
"standard". The fact that even within Digital, there were conflicts with
the <ESC>[xx t is such an indication.
You know very well that the VT100 "standard" is really much more than VT100
and includes far more modern features such as advanced video, and even
colours.
What you call the 'VT100 "standard"' already _is_ a published, non Digital
standard. It's ANSI standard X3.64.
Richard B. Gilbert
2006-12-30 15:34:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Moroney
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Robert Deininger
VT100 and the associated ANSI standard are very well documented and easy
to find in public locations.
What you seek isn't VT100 stuff. DECterm is based on the VT300 series,
IIRC. But DECterm has its own extensions, which may not be part of any
general standard.
Exactly my point. Digital should have made those extensions more formal
and published them so that anyone using the so called "VT100" standard
would not conflict with DEC's own extensions, which render the VT100 less
"standard". The fact that even within Digital, there were conflicts with
the <ESC>[xx t is such an indication.
You know very well that the VT100 "standard" is really much more than VT100
and includes far more modern features such as advanced video, and even
colours.
What you call the 'VT100 "standard"' already _is_ a published, non Digital
standard. It's ANSI standard X3.64.
The ANSI X3.64 standard is a subset of VT100. DEC added a lot of "DEC
private" escape sequences.
Larry Kilgallen
2006-12-30 21:05:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard B. Gilbert
Post by Michael Moroney
What you call the 'VT100 "standard"' already _is_ a published, non Digital
standard. It's ANSI standard X3.64.
The ANSI X3.64 standard is a subset of VT100. DEC added a lot of "DEC
private" escape sequences.
It seems to me the VT100 would have preceeded ANSI X-whatever.

Likely DEC had to add a lot of "DEC private" because ANSI was not
willing to accept the whole thing (in the tradition of standards
committees not wanting to give one vendor too much of a head start).
Richard B. Gilbert
2006-12-30 21:48:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Kilgallen
Post by Richard B. Gilbert
Post by Michael Moroney
What you call the 'VT100 "standard"' already _is_ a published, non Digital
standard. It's ANSI standard X3.64.
The ANSI X3.64 standard is a subset of VT100. DEC added a lot of "DEC
private" escape sequences.
It seems to me the VT100 would have preceeded ANSI X-whatever.
Likely DEC had to add a lot of "DEC private" because ANSI was not
willing to accept the whole thing (in the tradition of standards
committees not wanting to give one vendor too much of a head start).
ANSI X3.64-1979 was first released in 1979 which, I believe, was a year
or two before the VT100 came along.
Thomas Dickey
2006-12-31 01:31:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard B. Gilbert
ANSI X3.64-1979 was first released in 1979 which, I believe, was a year
or two before the VT100 came along.
after: 1976
(google can show you several references)

(google can also show you that x3.64 was withdrawn some time ago).
--
Thomas E. Dickey
http://invisible-island.net
ftp://invisible-island.net
Richard B. Gilbert
2006-12-31 02:24:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Dickey
Post by Richard B. Gilbert
ANSI X3.64-1979 was first released in 1979 which, I believe, was a year
or two before the VT100 came along.
after: 1976
(google can show you several references)
(google can also show you that x3.64 was withdrawn some time ago).
Withdrawn? What does that mean? Was it replaced with something?

Has the VT100/200/300/400/500 series of terminals been relegated to
terminal hell along with the ADM-3, ADM-11, and zillions of other
terminals, each with it's own, incompatible with anything else, standard?
Paul Sture
2006-12-31 02:38:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard B. Gilbert
Post by Larry Kilgallen
Post by Richard B. Gilbert
Post by Michael Moroney
What you call the 'VT100 "standard"' already _is_ a published, non Digital
standard. It's ANSI standard X3.64.
The ANSI X3.64 standard is a subset of VT100. DEC added a lot of "DEC
private" escape sequences.
It seems to me the VT100 would have preceeded ANSI X-whatever.
Likely DEC had to add a lot of "DEC private" because ANSI was not
willing to accept the whole thing (in the tradition of standards
committees not wanting to give one vendor too much of a head start).
ANSI X3.64-1979 was first released in 1979 which, I believe, was a year
or two before the VT100 came along.
http://www.vt100.net/vt_history

"VT100
Digital¹s first ANSI-compliant terminal, introduced in August 1978."

which tallies extremely well with my memories of a PDP upgrade and
moving that system out of what could best be described as a broom
cupboard into a proper computer room, our first VT100 included.
--
Paul Sture
Bob Koehler
2007-01-02 13:52:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
"VT100
Digital¹s first ANSI-compliant terminal, introduced in August 1978."
which tallies extremely well with my memories of a PDP upgrade and
moving that system out of what could best be described as a broom
cupboard into a proper computer room, our first VT100 included.
When we got our first VAX, in 1980, we were able to buy VT100 clones
already.
Paul Sture
2007-01-02 21:29:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Koehler
Post by JF Mezei
"VT100
Digital¹s first ANSI-compliant terminal, introduced in August 1978."
which tallies extremely well with my memories of a PDP upgrade and
moving that system out of what could best be described as a broom
cupboard into a proper computer room, our first VT100 included.
When we got our first VAX, in 1980, we were able to buy VT100 clones
already.
I remember using an extremely nice Tandberg model in 1980. If you didn't
get to the terminal room before everyone else in a morning you'd lost
you change of getting at it.
--
Paul Sture
d***@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk
2007-01-01 12:23:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard B. Gilbert
Post by Larry Kilgallen
Post by Richard B. Gilbert
Post by Michael Moroney
What you call the 'VT100 "standard"' already _is_ a published, non Digital
standard. It's ANSI standard X3.64.
The ANSI X3.64 standard is a subset of VT100. DEC added a lot of "DEC
private" escape sequences.
It seems to me the VT100 would have preceeded ANSI X-whatever.
Likely DEC had to add a lot of "DEC private" because ANSI was not
willing to accept the whole thing (in the tradition of standards
committees not wanting to give one vendor too much of a head start).
ANSI X3.64-1979 was first released in 1979 which, I believe, was a year
or two before the VT100 came along.
According to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VT100

the VT100 was first released in August 1978.

According to

http://www.cs.utk.edu/~shuford/terminal/dec.html

it was based on ANSI X3.64 which was published in 1977 and although the most
popular terminal based on that standard was not the first.


David Webb
Security team leader
CCSS
Middlesex University
Thomas Dickey
2006-12-29 13:20:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harris
Post by JF Mezei
I am looking fro an escape sequence, which, when sent to a DECterm, would
cause that window to minimise itself into an icon. Is there such a beast ?
There really should be some central "official" document that lists all the
escape sequences supported by DECterm above and beyond what a VT200 dupports.
I tried google, and there are so many sites that list one or two espape
sequence that it is nearly impossible to find out whether what I am looking
for exists or not.
I've found this dtterm man page from Tru64 UNIX to be most useful
dtterm is unrelated to DECterm (aka dxterm).
--
Thomas E. Dickey
http://invisible-island.net
ftp://invisible-island.net
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